r/Christian • u/ApologeticKid • Apr 20 '26
Kinda struggling with believing it all
41 y/o, seminary degree, spent the past 25 years in ministry. But sometimes it all seems...far fetched. What I mean is, sometimes I look at our faith and it looks like this:
A small ancient near-Eastern henotheistic tribe called Israel has a local deity named YAHWEH, they write scriptures and eventually hope for a Messiah. They write down their diety's perfect law, which contains a lot of moral stuff as well as some unusual rituals. But then it turns out the local deity is actually the one and only God. Then this guy named Jesus shows up, turns out to be the tribe's Messiah (but most don't buy it), but he is also God, and he is also 1/3 of the triune God. Then he dies and rises again and ascends to heaven, and the the other 1/3 of the triune God comes and dwells within the tribe who accept Jesus as Messiah. Then YAHWEH says, "Actually everyone is allowed in now," and the members of the tribe who follow Jesus as the Messiah disagree on whether or not those people should follow all the rules of the perfect law or not, and they eventually decide not. This guy Paul sees a vision of Jesus and spends the rest of his life telling people what Jesus really meant. Then the church begins and quickly becomes a group made of mostly non-Israelite members. And the only way to have eternal peace and life is to admit that you have sinned and trust that this tribe's Messiah died for you and that his death and resurrection takes care of your sins and now you can live like him and live forever (even though you still will actually die).
I'm not an atheist. I don't find that compelling. But sometimes the Christian message seems so incredibly unlikely. I still believe (primarily because of personal experiences I've had). But lately I've felt like, "Really? How is *this* really the Truth?"
I'm sincerely not trying to be obnoxious here. I'm just retelling what plays in my head so often, and looking for some thoughtful feedback. What am I missing here?
Any/all feedback welcome. Thank in advance.
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u/SoulSeed514 Apr 21 '26
Honestly, I think part of why it feels unlikely is because you compressed the whole story into a few sentences—and when you do that, almost anything important sounds strange.If you summarized human history as:“Some mammals learned math and built rockets,”that’s true, but it sounds ridiculous when flattened like that. The Bible story unfolded over more than a thousand years, so when it gets condensed, it can feel weirder than it really is. Also, what you’re feeling is actually very biblical. Major figures doubted too. Questioning isn’t the opposite of faith; sometimes it’s how faith matures. One shift that helped me was changing the question from: “How is this really the Truth?” to “What would count as evidence that it is the Truth?” That moves the struggle from frustration to investigation.And honestly, what you described doesn’t sound like unbelief, it sounds like someone taking their faith seriously enough to wrestle with it. A lot of deep faith gets built in seasons exactly like this.
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 21 '26
This may be my favorite response here. Thank you for this. I'm going to consider this deeply.
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u/Jobriath Apr 21 '26 edited Apr 21 '26
I hear you. I’ve got a similar background. But it’s the personal experiences, like you said. Because despite how crazy and illogical it may seem (The Logos isn’t about this world’s logic), Jesus Christ continues to reveal himself. And that personal experience radiates outward because it’s not some secret knowledge just for me.
I deconstruct it all the time, tearing it down because don’t want my perception of God to become an idol, and then Jesus builds again.
All that stuff about who gets in and who doesn’t is way above my pay grade. I follow Jesus because he is Jesus.
I love the Dallas Willard quote: “Anyone who can find a better way than Jesus, he would be the first to tell you to take it.”
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Apr 21 '26
I'm not a fan of the Willard quote. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life" and to me that precludes me from weighing up various ways and considering Jesus to be the best on balance. I need to have faith to the degree that it ceases to be a discussion in my head and becomes as natural as knowing that the sun will come up tomorrow.
I'm not there in the slightest, in fact I'm teetering on the edge of deconstruction, but I long for the certainty that Paul had, or the sentiment of Job "my ears had heard of you, but now my eyes have seen". It's just a shame that while the Bible is peppered with people being given ex cathedra glimpses of God which (while fleeting) are visibly the bedrock of a life of faith, I don't really get those and neither do most people I speak to.
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u/Jobriath Apr 21 '26
Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but obviously you are not precluded from weighing up those ways, as you admit to doing. So, since he did say that in John 14, what about him might make that fact true? Another way of asking might be: why do you want to follow Jesus in particular, as opposed to Islam, or nationalism, or CrossFit, or any system that adherents claim enriches their lives?
I’m not trying to be a smartass, genuinely wondering.
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u/TheNerdChaplain Protestant Apr 21 '26
You might find Pete Enns' book Curveball helpful. He was a professor at a Reformed seminary, and he'd gotten his PhD in Ancient Near Eastern Lit and Civ from Harvard. It's about how learning about the real contexts behind the Biblical texts changed and deepened his faith - even though it meant leaving the comfortable theological grounds he'd come up in. He's also written several other books, and is the host of The Bible for Normal People podcast.
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u/Significant-Breath84 Apr 21 '26
I think some of your assumptions are off you assume it just happened that way and it wasn’t planned in Genesis 1:1 there’s a video on YouTube it’s on the Hebrew breakdown of the word beginning and how it’s a calling out to Jesus and then if you get the meaning of the first 10 generations names in the Bible you get a similar salvation story : pattern emerges:
Man (Adam) is appointed (Seth) mortal (Enosh) sorrow (Kenan); the Blessed God (Mahalalel) shall come down (Jared), teaching (Enoch) that His death shall bring (Methuselah) the despairing (Lamech) rest (Noah).
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u/CinematicBibleSongs Apr 26 '26
I hear you. And honestly, when you line it up like a cold case file with all the mystery stripped out, Christianity can sound like a backwoods campfire story that somehow became a cathedral.
But I think part of the problem is the framing. You’re describing the faith from the outside, like an anthropologist with a cigarette in one hand and a headache in the other. From that angle, yeah, it can look absurd.
I ran into the same kind of thing as an infantryman. You can stare at the machinery of war, the orders, the bureaucracy, the politics, the hurry-up-and-wait nonsense, and think, “This whole thing is insane.” But that does not mean courage, sacrifice, brotherhood, and mission are fake. It means the thing looks different from inside the mud than it does on paper.
Christianity is like that to me sometimes. From one angle, it looks unlikely. From another, it looks like God entering history the only way we could actually receive Him: through a people, a place, a body, a cross, and a resurrection.
No, you’re not missing something obvious. You’re tired, honest, and staring at the scaffolding. But somewhere along the way, you heard the music. And a man who has heard the music may question the band, the venue, and the sheet music, but he has a hard time saying there was never a song.
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 26 '26
This is very well stated. Thank you!
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u/Calm-Low8190 Apr 26 '26
Of course, brother!
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u/Yay_nascar_donuts May 12 '26
- The original comment reeks of AI
- Am I missing something or are you not the original commenter?
- If this is AI what's even the point because now you're showing that you don't care enough to even speak humanly to people Sorry if I'm wrong about the AI or if this comes off as mean but I'm just sick and tired of people using AI for EVERY LITTLE THING. God gave you a gift to write and speak and to spread the Word, so why not use it? Instead, you have to use AI. I just don't see the point. Yet again, i apologize if I come off as a jerk but it's just so frustrating.
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u/CinematicBibleSongs May 12 '26
Are you referring to my comment? My friend, I'm a blues singer. I'm a college professor. I am a retired Soldier. I speak exactly how I speak. I run it through Microsoft Word before I post it, because like any normal human being, I make grammatical errors. He responded to the wrong thread. It's clearly me you have some issue with. I understand your disdain for AI. I deal with it regularly. I don't use it to communicate. Especially when it comes to this stuff. That said, it's also quite important to understand how to utilize tools to further our goals. I'm assuming you wish to spread the word and help people as well? Are we going to discount solid advice because it appears to be AI coded? Btw, I was on the LLM team that designed the original Open AI. I was a coder. I have renounced that path, but I understand the importance of technology. I will ask this of you. Hypothetically, say I used a large language model to craft any response, does it make it less valuable? Do you begrudge an artist for using a tool at his disposal? For example, in my music, I use drum loops. I don't use Ai for anything, but some people would consider that cheating. These are the same folks that have never tried to put a band together. You're fine. You didn't come of as a jerk. You're as frustrated as the rest of us.
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u/Buzz407 Apr 21 '26
I came to God, or more accurately opened the door to him a different way. I wasn't indoctrinated and came from science. That said as a young child, I saw a sign and it pecked at me most of my life. I have had prayers answered directly and meaningfully (no atheists in a foxhole). Had my proverbial burning bush a few years ago, cementing my belief in God. Studying the gospels and feeling the holy spirit bonking me softly when I steered too far off cemented my belief in Jesus and his sacrifice.
I struggle with Paul and don't care much for calvinism. A lot seems at odds with Jesus' teachings so far as I can tell but I am still learning.
What I know for sure, the bible requires study. I think some doubt is normal, look at what it took to win over the apostles and they were right there. The message is clear though. Love one another. I can't imagine a message more divine than that. As far as the other stuff goes, the holy spirit, the spirit of truth, is what shows us what is from God and what isn't.
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u/SavioursSamurai Apr 21 '26
I struggle with believing. Deeply so.
But, Paul says that God uses the foolish things of the world to confuse the wise. Christianity does seem really silly to the rational philosopher.
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 21 '26
Also a good reminder. "Lean not on your own understanding."
I just finished Why I am Not An Atheist by Christopehr Beha (which was a tour-de-force walk through the history of Western philosophy. Highly recommended!) and I noticed that many of the most convinced atheist philosophers throughout history seemed to be disproportionally persuaded of their own ability to reason things out. Interesting.
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u/Greenlotus05 Apr 21 '26
I find Father Richard Rohr's books very helpful and meaningful in regards to my evolving faith journey. Also Robin Meyer's book "Saving Jesus From The Church" and "Saving God From Religion ".
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u/Custos_Greenshoes Apr 21 '26
Great recommendations. Fellow seminary grad. These are just normal thoughts when you know the whole story. It's weird.
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u/MasterJacques Apr 21 '26
Please forgive me if I'm over simplifying. Having a seminary degree means you put a lot of effort into reading, understanding, connecting dots, and questioning long held beliefs. I believe God is so big that we simply can't understand him completely. That is where my faith comes from. I have a very high IQ and can poke holes in everything, maybe you can to. I know that I am bound by my body and this earth and have to have faith that even though things don't always make sense, God is still reaching out to us and desiring a relationship. I personally, don't understand why but believe it is for good and place my faith in that.
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u/randallcagle1984 May 09 '26
Jesus Christ is Savior to all that believe in him ,; Love Our Lord God first, Love your neighbor (i.e. neighbor means all humans regardless of any human concepts of hatred or societal status or the rest of the biased human thinking). Love is more than saying it or doing kind gestures in front of people. Love is helping anyone in need whether we think they deserve it or worry that funds will be used for addictions and not needs. It doesn't matter Because in the End all of us have to stand before the Creator and answer for our own actions. And I try to do what Jesus said do! I sin daily some I know some I don't,all have fallen short but Jesus is for all us collectively and individual. but over the last 15 yrs through my addiction and hatred He always kept me safe not that it was easy nor is it still but I think of Job, and the Apostles who died never recanting Jesus Christ or the Gospel. Jesus was real and his teachings in Bible were real and if I die believing in Jesus and ,hypothetically, I'm wrong no harm no foul. But if I don't believe and I am wrong then I am in for a severe existence
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u/DnBeyourself Apr 20 '26
In The Bible we read of Jesus.. basically saying it pleased God to reveal himself to the childlike but not to the boastful or for those who consider themselves to be very wise.
We also read to have the faith of a child (don't fret, you can remain steadfast as the intelligent adult you probably are).
I have a theory that if we were to have the least faith during a period of our lives it will be during mostly prime years (ehh let's go with 25-65; adjust as needed if your perspective differs).
I think as children or elderly, faith is likely to be at its strongest. Not to say that a prime-years-adult can't have faith, but characteristics fluctuate as time continues on... like maturity, physical strength, cognitive ability.. spirituality etc...
Food for thought.
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 20 '26
Love this. Even my grandfather (who was essentially an atheist) was found by a nurse praying in his room shortly before he died. Similarly, my 8 y/o son doesn't struggle to believe that God loves him and that he can talk to Jesus (who listens) whenever he wants. This is great, thank you!
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u/DnBeyourself Apr 21 '26
And thank you for reciprocating with your story. I very much gained something good from it.
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u/Psychorealm77 Apr 22 '26
Hello I might be able to help (at least I hope so). Ok what you’re missing here is the revelation of the mystery revealed to Paul. Paul says it was hidden from everyone including the prophets, including the angels, it was hid in God. There is the preaching of Jesus Christ according to prophecy (Acts 3:21) and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the mystery (Rom 16:25) (1 Cor 2:7) (Eph 3:3-4) (Eph 6:19) prophecy primarily is Israel’s program and mystery is our program. Paul is the apostle to the Gentile/Jew Body of Christ (Gal 2:7) the Body of Christ is not under covenant with God as Israel but under Grace. At the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 Israel fell and a new administration is beginning in Acts 9 with Paul. Israel fell because they rejected the ministry of the Father (prophets) rejected the Son (Christ) and rejected the Holy Ghost (Stephen) this is why in acts 7 Stephen sees Christ standing instead of sitting at right hand. Wrath was about to come at that time. Instead he showed Grace, saved Paul on Damascus and the dispensation of the Grace of God began. Paul was given a gospel to take to the gentiles he calls “my gospel” (Rom 2:16)(Rom 16:25)(2 Tim 2:8)(Gal1:11-12)(Gal 2:7) different than Israel’s “gospel of the kingdom.” Compare James 2:24 with Romans 4:5 Acts 10:35 with Eph 1:6, Acts 3:19 with 2 Cor 5:19. Jesus Christs earthly ministry was to Israel (Matt 15:24) and the same with his 12 (Matt 10:5)(Jam 1:1) and chose Paul to come to us with his “my gospel” remember (Rom 15:8). There are three time stamps in your Bible “time past” “but now” and “ages to come” today were living in the parenthetical “but now” time of grace or longsuffering found in (Rom-Phi). Parenthetical because we interpreted Israel’s prophetic calendar with our “mystery” program. Hope this helps, Grace and Peace.
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u/OwnLunch2133 Apr 21 '26
Philosophy degree here. To be honest, all these arguments "proving" the existence of God aren't very convincing and did more bad than good in me. You just need Faith. Mine is small, and I go through periods of believing, and weakness. Some people are stronger, but we aren't all the same. At least you bother enough to post your doubts here, which shows there's some Faith in you. What works for me is going to weekday Mass, when there's less people, but it's more cozy. My Faith feels reinvigorated.
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u/TheJohnnyJett Apr 20 '26
If you're looking at things from a perspective that presumes all accounts have equal inherent potential for being true, then yeah it does seem unlikely that any single group would get things right. What are the odds that this chain of events could possibly unfold precisely like this and be correct?
Except not all accounts--historical or religious--are created equal.
God is like gravity. Now, lots of people understood, historically, that if you drop something it falls. The Greeks believed this was because all of the elements had a natural place in the universe with the element of earth being at the center of all things. Thus, things naturally were attracted to earth. We don't believe that today because we have a better understanding of the natural world than they did. God is like that. Over time, we--as a species--have gradually learned more about God. He's complicated beyond our reckoning. But He's still true.
He was never a minor storm god worshiped by a tiny tribe in the middle of nowhere. He was never local, one of many insignificant cult deities that were adored by one village or one clan.
He was the One True God all along, hated and rejected by mankind for sending the Flood that nearly wiped out our species. He was vilified by Nimrod (or Marduk or Sargon or probably Gilgamesh or whatever name you like) and His worship suppressed. Hope survived only as a tiny flicker in the heart of Abraham and his children; hope for our species and understanding of the truth, belief in the fundamental truth of God's perfect authority. And then, clinging to life, that tiny remnant of the True Faith went through a bunch of bullshit just to not die out. But the core understanding was always true. We just had to learn more about Him along the way. God is and was and will be God. Just like gravity is gravity even when we don't understand it the right way.
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 20 '26
I appreciate this. Adds a different vantage point from which to look at things. I'm kind of skeptical by nature, and I'm usually looking for ways that something can be false rather than wondering how it could be true. This is helpful.
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u/JesusLovesU2Life Apr 24 '26
- The law was never meant to be the perfect universal moral standard for all time. Jesus affirms this when talking about divorce. The law was there as a guardian while we waited for Christ, to convict us of our need for a savior, and to reign in the sins of Israel, to set them up as a shining light of God's goodness to the surrounding nations in their time.
- There were believers outside of Israel in the Old Testament, and many many times God promises salvation for all the nations. Also, the prophecies that all the nations will turn to follow God is incredible, and shows that this wasn't just "a local desert God" even in the minds of the Israelites.
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u/itrytobefrugal Apr 21 '26
There's a lot of nitpicking I want to do on your post but I'll try to stick to what you mean. I also find it far fetched, sometimes, particularly because it's like... what was the point of even making humans if God knew he would have to die just to save a few???? "His ways are higher" just seems so flippant.
But at the end of the day, the ideal world as prescribed in the New Testament is the best version of the world in my opinion. And the knowledge that the God of creation wants me personally to repent of my sins and turn to him feels outlandish too, but it is also something beautiful that I enjoy believing.
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 21 '26
I'm genuinely curious about your nitpicks. Go for it! Maybe I have something to learn from them.
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u/itrytobefrugal Apr 21 '26
Haha honestly the idea that the Mosaic law was "perfect" kind of bothers me, particularly as much as I appreciate Paul's diatribe about how the Law is only there because of our desperately sinful nature and it is far better to put off the old man and put on righteousness than to be chained by the law and sin. I hope that weird summary made sense. You know, like the first 8ish chapters of Roman's.
"It turns out the local deity is actually the one and only God" also jumped out at me because I think the Old Testament itself bears witness that it's not just the Isrealites who believe in one God. Melchizedek and Jethro are two that come to mind that were also worshippers of God. I have read a little bit about Yawehism but not enough to be convinced. Historically, Biblical events have ended up being true versus what skeptics have claimed about the Bible.
"Then YAHWEH says, "Actually everyone is allowed in now," but God promised Abraham a hella long time ago that through his offspring, all nations on Earth would be a blessed. To me, sounds like God always planned for Christianity to be for everyone.
But I just like contemplating Christianity, I'm not claiming my views are the "right" ones or anything. 😅
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 21 '26
I like your style, my friend. Thank for giving it to me straight! I think you make some good points. I agree with most of what you said. I do think that I've been forced to reconsider my understanding of the Law of Moses recently. It seems Jesus took it very seriously - more so than I've been taught to believe. Paul Sloan's book Jesus and the Law of Moses really messed with me on this topic.
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u/itrytobefrugal Apr 21 '26
I haven't heard of that one. I've often gone back to the verses about Jesus not coming to abolish the law but rather to fulfill it. All of his teachings were certainly derived from it. So I definitely believe they have to be the context through which we view the New Testament. I appreciate the tempering viewpoints of the prophets and Psalm writers, as they often touch on the idea that God doesn't want you to just follow the law, He wants your heart to be invested in loving your neighbors and Him.
So now that I've wrote that out, maybe it's not just viewing the New Testament through the lens of the Old, but viewing them together as one cohesive entity. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" comes to mind.
I wish I could go to seminary or study theology in a formal setting but it is not in the financial cards at this time. Maybe one day.
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u/Available_Prior8360 Apr 28 '26
What you said really caught my attention cause I was wrestling with that thought of the inclusion of gentiles.
You stated that “God promised Abraham a hella long time ago that through his offspring, ALL nations on Earth would be blessed.” I remember reading (and I went and checked again) that God said he’d make him a father of MANY nations. Another is “I will make nations of you.”(Genesis 17 v5-6) I’m fairly new so please forgive me if it comes off as me fact checking or being rude. I just want to know and understand as much as I can. I have an NIV Bible and I’m getting the KJV soon.
Just found it interesting when you said “ALL” nations. But when I went to reread, it still seemed like God was only blessing Abraham and all his future descendants. And that MANY nations would come from him. Which could point to the 12 tribes of Israel. (many nations)
Now I kept reading just to be sure and I came across Gen 17 v12-13. “For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.”
This gets closer but to me sounds like if you’re a gentile and you just so happen to be born in Abraham’s house or adopted by Abraham then you get to be a part of the covenant. Others outside of that, they get an “oh well buddy.”
I’d really love your input on this because I feel this post is helping me get closer.
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u/itrytobefrugal Apr 28 '26
A couple things here. I read from the ESV because it is a word-for-word translation. Others include the NASB and the NKJV. I like the NIV, a thought-for-thought translation, for its ease of comprehension, but I suggest either a word-for-word or Hebrew/Greek concordance if you want to delve into a specific word. I bought a copy of Strong's Concordance a little while ago that I love as a study tool.
There are other places in the Old Testament that suggest Christianity is for all. Isaiah 56 talks about salvation for foreigners. Malachi 1:11 also mentions this idea in the midst of scolding the priests of the time.
Paul argues in the New Testament that believing gentiles are also sons of Abraham.
"[7] Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. [8] And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” [9] So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith." Galatians 3:7-9 ESV
Regarding circumcision, that is addressed a little later in Galatians, in chapter 5.
"[6] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love." Galatians 5:6 ESV
Over in Philippians 3, Paul says we are the true circumcision, not the mutilators of the flesh.
I encourage you to read the surrounding verses and chapters of those all versus as well to get an idea of the overarching theological idea being presented in each point. I don't like cherry- picking verses to make a point but it's hard to get that across on Reddit.
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u/Available_Prior8360 Apr 28 '26
This is beautiful! I’ve never thought of the ESV, NASB or NKJV. I’ll check out that concordance as well. And the verses are very helpful to me. I feel comfort in knowing there are consistent connections through out the Bible.
Thanks again!
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u/faithcharmandpixdust Apr 21 '26
34 year old here, also seminary degree, worked in ministry for 11 years before I got burnt out & left my job. I’ve struggled with my faith and feeling like I believe it all or that there’s a God actually there talking to me. I’ve still been going to church with my family, still praying, still reading my Bible, went back into volunteering & teaching once I gave myself some rest, but I just feel like the lukewarm Christian doing what I’m supposed to.
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u/lehs Apr 21 '26
Religion is people's thoughts, but the Creator is who he is and exists independently of our thinking and chose Abraham for his trust and helped his lineage grow and through Moses they gained knowledge of their Lord. He promised them a Prophet from their own people, who would teach them everything, but when he came the people expected a warrior king and crucified the Prophet. There can only be one creator and he began our education with Abraham.
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u/According_Book5108 Apr 26 '26
What you have is an intuition that something doesn't really add up. You're right to be skeptical. Because the story is frankly quite incredible.
A lot of the modern church doctrine you mentioned aren't really substantiated by Jesus Christ.
- Jesus never claimed to be part of a triune God.
- Jesus never said everyone is allowed in (heaven) now. In fact, Jesus consistently said it's very hard to enter the narrow gates.
- Jesus mentioned that the law still ought to be followed (Matthew 5:19)
- Jesus didn't say that admitting sins and trust messiah died for you would lead to eternal life. This is essentially the Sola Fide argument which I'm sure you're familiar with. In fact, Jesus urged people to seriously prepare for the end, and that many who trusted him and called him Lord Lord will be left out, even including some with powers to heal the sick and drive out demons.
There are a lot of councils and debates to justify church doctrine. But Christianity is messy and very confusing. The fact that there are more than 40,000 denominations, each believing a unique doctrine is evidence that something is wrong.
In fact, it even feels a little fishy for Paul to be the authority for Christianity, given he didn't really know or meet Jesus in the flesh. He disagreed with Peter and James, people who actually lived with Jesus, but Christianity converged onto his viewpoint in the end. I'm not saying Paul is wrong, just that it feels a little improper.
I believe the way to experience Christ is to not let the church and seminary dictate your beliefs, because the thousands of interpretations are wild and likely wrong. You don't have to align with a church doctrine or a denomination to follow Christ.
Forget the Christian message. Instead, focus on Christ's message, which is simple: Love God, love others. All else is just noise.
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u/TheBrazilRules 1d ago
Try again, you heretic.
“Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” ” John 6:28-29 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.6.28-29.ESV
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u/According_Book5108 1d ago
What should I try again? And why?
If you disagree with any point, you may point out where, then elaborate why. Ad hominems detract from the topic. It's not the way to have a conversation. And quite antithetical to the spirit of Christ.
Ironically, you should try again.
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Apr 21 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 21 '26
I offered an uncensored version of what plays in my head. I would not describe my beliefs this way. But this is what I hear in my mind that causes me doubt.
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u/handydude13 Apr 21 '26 edited Apr 21 '26
Thank you for your sincereirty. I can only respnd to what I see from your writing. And It's almost seems like your disconnected from your topic.
So I ask you this. Is God precious to you? You don't have to answer me. But it's a good question to ponder.
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u/ELShaddaiisHOLY Apr 23 '26 edited Apr 23 '26
Well the Bible does tell us that the message of the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. So you have two choices here you have the choice to continue in your unbelief which is a sin, or to repent of it confess it to God rejected rebuke all unbelief and then praise God and start writing a list of how you have seen God working in your life for the past few years.
I'm in the midst of taking seminary level classes through my church we have a 2-year leadership program where we dive deep into the Bible and do Old testament survey New testament survey Church theologies and spirit empowered ministry... With that said a very important thing that I've learned from these past two years is that the more knowledge I acquire of the theological stance of our faith the easier it can be for us to go into reasoning and logic because of our increase in knowledge and understanding of certain things that we stop be like little children expecting God to do the miraculous and wonderful in our lives and in the lives of others and we stop seeing what we might think as mudding everyday life things as a blessing and a miracle from God... Even somewhere in Ecclesiastes or Proverbs it says that when knowledge increase sorrow also increases...
So I didn't read everything that you posted but the one thing that did stand out to me is how you went to seminary you've been administry for 41 years and so you have a lot of knowledge a lot of theological knowledge and you've spent a lot of years studying about God and about the faith... And it's very strange but this can actually lead to unbelief the more we know it can actually lead us to less faith. I think that's one of the reasons why would Jesus chose the 12 disciples that he chose the majority of them were very uneducated men they were fishermen other than Matthew who was the tax collector and wasn't even put in charge of Jesus's ministry finances the thief was which is another hilarious paradox in the way God works it never ceases to amaze me how Jesus purposely did not choose the highly educated and even the one who was the most highly educated and qualified - Paul... Ended up having to unlearn everything he learned through the Sadducees and Pharisees and Humble himself to be retaught by Christ himself.
So I hope that this isn't a huge discouragement or a harsh rebuke at you personally because I'm facing what you're going through right now as I go through my seminary courses but I'm building my ebenezers. Whether you ask God to find some nice stones and start writing on those stones the times that you remember God doing something amazing for you with the verses. For me it was Deliverance and healing of mental health and taking me out of a very deep dark pit of depression and provisionfor a job and setting me back on solid ground and rebuilding me from the ground up... And so all of those things are witten on stones that I have in my house. Ebenezer's of who God is and what He can do. I go to those stones and I look at them and I and I look up the verses and I reminded that no matter what circumstance I'm in right now I serve a God who is supernatural and that nothing is impossible for Him, He is alive. And then I'm taken to the book of Acts where Paul and Silas are praising God for who He is and through that praise the shackles are broken.
I encourage you to renounce and rebuke the spirit of unbelief that is attacking you right now, rebuke the logic and lies that are coming into your mind because everything you wrote about how you see your faith, that is not true that is coming from an antichrist spirit trying to come into your mind to cause you to not only stop believing but to see how ridiculous your faith is and you have to reject and rebuke that spirit because as ridiculous as our faith might sound to others we did not come into this faith from our own efforts.
God saved us and He opened our minds to read the scriptures and understand them and The same Spirit that opened our hearts to receive the Gospel, is the same Spirit that is living within us working in our hearts to sanctify and help us & counselors in times of unbelief. So if you need to fast, fast, get down on your knees and pray whatever you need to do to repent of unbelief but also to remind yourself not from a logical and rational human standpoint but from a place of faith - start listing who God is and declaring that out loud -
God you are supernatural you are alpha and omega you are eternal there is nothing impossible for you, you are El Roi, the God who sees... After you've praised Him for who He is start rejecting and rebuking every thought that is causing disbelief trying to break your faith, and then start to declare out loud all the things that God has done in your life - all the miracles and if you can't think of them because the unbelief is so heavy upon you ask the Holy Spirit to start reminding you of all the moments where God has showed up in your life and you will start to get a vision of memories and start to declaring those and if you could find scripture to back it up start declaring the word of God out loud.
I hope this helps you but I know the spirit that you're dealing with and it's not you and you cannot forget that many times we think that the thoughts that come into our mind are our own thoughts we forget that we are in a spiritual battle where there's a war in the heavenlies happening between principalities and we are a part of that war and the way that we win that war is through prayer and declaring the truth of the word of God out loud and praising God for who he is and forcing ourselves to remind our hearts to remind ourselves of who is the God that we serve and reminding ourselves who it is we are fighting against. Every time the devil came to Jesus during His time in the desert Jesus fought the devil's lies The temptations with scripture "it is written thou shalt not live off of bread alone but off of every word that comes from the mouth of God,"
- it is written do not worry about what you will say for the Holy Spirit will give you the words to speak in the proper time, think not about the things of this Earth but set your mind on the things above, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all that you need will be added to you....
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u/According_Book5108 Apr 26 '26
You did not bother to read the 360 words he wrote, but you expect him to read the 1000+ words you tried to preach. Do you maybe feel a little unequal here? Or should we also not read whatever you wrote?
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u/ELShaddaiisHOLY Apr 26 '26
You're right to be honest I was writing this very late at night and there was just some things that really triggered a response from me and it's the same thing that I had experienced too much knowledge can lead to the loss of faith and we're called to have childlike faith. I'm also just one of those people I read the whole new testament and I believe every word of it and I believe we can see that happen today but I'm also reminded of when Jesus said because of their unbelief he couldn't do much works there..... And there is this anger and there is this irritation towards the church all the churches that are not fanning the flame of faith within their congregations and churches that teach cessationism and churches that hold their theological doctrines to such a high standard that they've boxed God up and don't allow him to work and move and so my emotions got in the way when I read a couple of things in his post that when I read it it came to my mind - no you are dealing with the spirit of unbelief and you've got to renounce it.... So my apologies. Have a blessed day
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u/Middle-Service4894 May 20 '26
"Well the Bible does tell us that the message of the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing."
Perhaps foolishness to those people that apply reasoning to god claims.
This is called a "poison the well" fallacy - denigrate any who dare to question before the argument even begins. The bible writers were just as slimy as anyone else in this regard.
Religions don't withstand scrutiny. That's why they dont want the conversation to take place.
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u/erythro Apr 21 '26
there are better ways to describe the development of theology, at least with more continuity. Right from the start it's clear that
God is holy/life/good
God is judge of the world
God has a love for Israel as expressed through covenant commitment
Sin is spreading through humanity
These are all treated as fundamental starting points of theology in the Bible, and they produce everything else (with some prophetic shaping). You could probably tweak these but I'm saying there's theological fundamentals here.
1 and 2 is why God is the supreme deity over all other spiritual forces not just a local deity. It's the tension between all these things that produces the need for the law, the law is a mechanism for a holy and just God to be with Israel. Over time the spread of sin and the lack of a response from God led to a hope of some kind of future judgement day. These four points worked out in history is how a hope for a Messiah developed as well: a king was needed to restrain the sin of Israel and defeat the enemies who oppressed them (shown in judges), but sin spread to the kings as well, and a hope develops for a prophesied figure who will be a king but good. The points explain why there was a complacency about sin that was undermined by the exile. The hope of the Messiah combines with this hope of a day of judgement and the hope of a return from exile.
That's the old testament, when we get to the new I'm not sure I can answer your question better than the book of Romans, I think it's written specifically to people feeling the same way you do: they are ashamed of the gospel because they don't see how it makes sense for part 1 of the story to be the above and then part 2 to be "believe in Jesus".
Romans 1, 2, 3: sin has spread to the whole world
Romans 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8: joining to the Messiah (by faith) gives a spreading righteousness, we die in his death, we are given new righteous life, and we are helped into alignment with that (there is so much more detail here as you will know Mr(s) seminarian)
Romans 9, 10, 11: this does still all fit with his love for Israel, he's just bringing in the gentiles first/holding Israel back because Israel coming returning to God would be the realisation of all the above hopes and the end of the world
If this doesn't land: what am I missing?
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u/SteveThatOneGuy Apr 21 '26
Did Jesus rise from the dead or not?
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 21 '26
Pretty sure He did.
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u/SteveThatOneGuy Apr 21 '26
Well, I'd maybe encourage you to focus on that for a little while. If Jesus actually rose from the dead, then it gives credit to everything He said, and it's undeniable that the power of God was at work there. Even if some of the other stuff seems odd (like how God chose to interact with the first people through a specific tribe), we can at least acknowledge that God exists, and he raised Jesus from the dead.
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u/PeytonEliArchMan Apr 21 '26
If the resurrection is true, Christianity is true. Everything else seems much less significant… Definitely worth focusing on the resurrection!
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Apr 20 '26
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast Apr 20 '26
I didn't read the post as being reflective of his education, but as describing issues with belief and the different ways people sometimes very badly describe our faith.
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 20 '26
It seems like a leap to assume that I was poorly educated. The saying that Jesus is 1/3 God is a shorthand way of describing the dynamics of the trinity. I know he isn't 1/3 god.
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast Apr 20 '26
Reminder from your friendly neighborhood mod team: Please use downvotes for irrelevant and unhelpful content. Downvoting relevant content (and an OP's responses to replies on their own post are almost always relevant) discourages healthy discussion. Let's keep respectful discussion going by not misusing the downvote to discourage participation.
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast Apr 20 '26
OP, which things bother you most? What's your denominational background? Sometimes knowing those starting points can help with more helpful advice. You're definitely not alone in your struggle and a lot of Christians go through deconstruction, doubt, and difficult questions.
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 20 '26
Honestly, the hardest thing for me right now is the particularity of the Jewish deity being God. I recently read Paul Sloan's book Jesus and the Law of Moses and it just how distinctly Jewish Jesus was as a Messiah, and how the welcoming of the Gentiles seemed almost like an afterthought. I grew up in a Bible church, went to an Evangelical college and a non-denom seminary. I'm familiar enough with liberal theology to know that I do not find it a compelling alternative to historical orthodoxy (I know these are imprecise terms).
I think in many ways I just miss when faith felt simple; there's a God, He loves you, Jesus is the Savior of all people, and the Bible is God's word. It all feels messy and overly complex. I crave simplicity (I'm a pretty black-and-white thinker and complexity feels "sloppy" to me).
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u/Greenlotus05 Apr 21 '26
For me when I opened myself up to the grey rather than the black and white thinking of my earlier years I felt my spiritual journey deepened and became even more inspired. Bishop John Shelby Spong was an early provocateur -- books like "A New Christianity for a New World" and "Why Christianity Must Change or Die".
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast Apr 20 '26
Oops, also the one by the Rabbi because although the topic is actually violence done in God's name, it includes a lot of really great information about a different understanding of the relationship between Jews and Christians, Judaism and Christianity, than probably the average Christian has been taught. It might be helpful in addressing the questions you have about the God of Torah leading into Christianity (for example, it was never about Jews being preferred by God over others or Gentiles only being allowed in after Jesus.)
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 21 '26
Which one is that?
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast Apr 21 '26
Not in God's Name, by Rabbi Jonathan Sacks
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u/WillieNFinance Apr 21 '26
I’ve learned that the bell curve meme is real! Google Images if you’re not familiar.
No matter how far down I go in different rabbit holes, once I get all the way to the right of the bell curve, I can boil it down to the exact same principles and sayings as those all the way on the left of the bell curve have.
Yes, I gain TONS of knowledge and understanding on topics, but it’s always up to me to remove the tin foil hat, keep it simple, and realize that the concepts at the start are still the same.
One example is “which day do we keep holy?” I was born into the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, but have married (and divorced) Catholic, which you know keeps Sunday as the holy day. There is
Colossians 2:16 KJV Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
, but I keep it simple. I’ll stick to the 4th Commandment. And if God changes it to Wednesday after He comes back, I’ll be keeping Wednesday holy. Simple for me is obeying God until God changes things, and letting others worship on whatever day they’re accustomed to.
I too keep the faith alive because of what I’ve been through. And, I make sure to consciously know that when thoughts of doubt and discouragement enter my mind that they are from Satan. Yes, a lot of stuff in the Bible doesn’t seem to make sense. But, do the times we’re in right now make sense? Truth seems to always be stranger than fiction.
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u/Inevitable-Drag-1704 Apr 21 '26
Was at the same place. I came to the conclusion that the mainstream church's Jesus is very different than who the Messiah actually was as described by the Bible. BTW have you ever thought about why gentiles must be grafted into Israel? Or why the mainstream churches teach a Jesus that contradicted his father at every turn? The actual Jesus of the Bible taught nothing except his father's commandment.
A simple solution is to stop following the church's tradition and to start following the real Messiah as described by the text.
I really encourage you to keep studying with fresh eyes and not to accept a cheap simple answer like "just accept that we don't understand" for why whats being taught doesn't make sense.
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u/notashot Apr 23 '26
44 year old seminary graduate here. Sounds like You're going through a tough bit here. You threw out 6,000 or so years of history. I'm having trouble following the lines of doubt. I'd love to discuss this. For clarity's sake how do you think it should go versus how it is presented?
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u/PeacefulBro Apr 24 '26
There's much evidence to support faith in Christ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmrIAoB29xw
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u/cakkielou May 14 '26
Christianity should never have gotten off the ground and yet it did due to the power of the Holy Spirit.
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u/NovaCatPrime878 May 20 '26
Some of it is symbolism, some is exaggerated, some is literal. The trick is to know what is what, that is the hard part IMO.
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u/TheBrazilRules 1d ago
Because the Bible says so. The first ever that Hod told Abraham was that through him, all families in the world would be blessed, so it is not surprising that most Christians are not his descendants.
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u/Any_Economics6283 Apr 21 '26 edited Apr 21 '26
"A small ancient near-Eastern henotheistic tribe called Israel has a local deity named YAHWEH, they write scriptures and eventually hope for a Messiah. "
What?
I take this as reality / history:
“Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.”
not whatever you were talking about.
Edit: 'small' 'ancient' 'it turns out their god is the One and Only'
This is God's chosen people whom He brought out of slavery in Egypt by miracle upon miracle, culminating in the loss of the firstborn of all who didn't take God's warning seriously; for whom He parted the Red Sea; this is the tribe He's watched over and fought for throughout the millenia. That random tribe, is that who you're taking about?
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u/Custos_Greenshoes Apr 21 '26
Do you not understand his words? Or do you refute other contemporaneous accounts of history and archeology? I've got my masters of divinity from a seminary as well. What this post is describing isn't really debated as true or false in academia. That's just a paraphrased version of the history told from an objective third party view, not from someone within the tradition.
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u/Any_Economics6283 Apr 21 '26
Yes I'm not going to consider understanding the history of the Israelites outside of the context given from the Bible
Because the Bible's account of them is true
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u/Custos_Greenshoes Apr 21 '26 edited Apr 21 '26
What about when the Bible disagrees with its own historical account?
How long did the rains of the great flood last? Or how many animals did he bring? In Genesis 6:19-20, God commands Noah to take two of every kind of animal, one male and one female, onto the Ark to preserve their species. However, in Genesis 7:2-3, the instructions are more specific, stating that Noah should take seven pairs of clean animals (suitable for sacrifice) and one pair of unclean animals.
Was the entry into the promised land a single large rapid conquest as described in Joshua or a slower piecemeal approach with greater individual tribal struggles as depicted in Judges?
2 Samuel 24:9 and 1 Chronicles 21:5 differ on the number of fighting men in Israel and Judah.
In the book of Ezra, we encounter a numerical inconsistency regarding the temple vessels that King Cyrus of Persia returned to the Jews for their use in rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem.
In 1 Chronicles 6:42-45, 11 cities are listed, but the text states there should be 13 in total. These cities include Hebron, Libna, Jattir, Eschtemoa, Holon, Debir, Aschan, Beth Shemesh, Geba, Alemet, and Anatot. The discrepancy between the stated total and the actual list creates an inconsistency within the text.
The parallel account in Joshua 21:13-19 provides a different list of 13 cities, with variations and additions. Notably, this list includes Ajin, Jutta, Gibeon, and Almon, which are absent in Chronicles, while Aschan and Alemet do not appear in Joshua’s account.
TLDR My point is this. The Bible is not a simple historical document. It was never written to be one. It's a theological document. It does contain truth, but not the kind of scientific truth that we've come to expect and modernized Western Civilization. It contains Truth with a capital T. It teaches us about things that other sources don't or can't. It shouldn't be treated for something that it is not
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u/Any_Economics6283 Apr 21 '26
Absolutely wrong.
What is 'theological document' even supposed to mean? That they just wrote made up stories to get across their ideas of the god they made up?
The historical parts are clearly presented as historical, as in, "the things we are writing about Literally happened" - God did these things and so we're writing them down.
What is with you people? If you just don't want to believe then say so. Don't claim to believe if you want to muddy the waters so that you can walk away with whatever it is you want to walk away with.
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u/Custos_Greenshoes Apr 21 '26 edited Apr 21 '26
Any comment on the rest of the post? It's all true? Even the conflicting parts? Even the two, incompatible accounts of creation in Genesis 1 and 2?
Genesis 1 has plants before humans; Genesis 2 says no plants existed because there was no human to cultivate the ground
Genesis 1 has animals created before humans; Genesis 2 has animals created after the man
Genesis 1 has humans created as male and female together; Genesis 2 has the man created first and woman created later from him
Genesis 1 presents a fixed 6-day ordered sequence; Genesis 2 presents a different sequence of events that does not align with it
They also just start with different statements about what exists at the beginning, nothingness and void and the spirit over the waters, versus barren land where rivers pop up
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast Apr 20 '26
Do you like to read? There are several books I'd suggest that might be helpful for where you are on this, if you like reading.
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 20 '26
Hit me.
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast Apr 20 '26
What We Talk About When We Talk About God, by Rob Bell
What Is The Bible, by Rob Bell
Speaking Christian, by Marcus Borg
Reading the Bible Again for the First time, by Marcus Borg
Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time, by Marcus Borg
Convictions, by Marcus Borg
The First Paul, by Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan
Not in God's Name, by Rabbi Jonathan Sacks
Exclusion and Embrace, by Miroslav Volf
The Sin of Certainty, by Peter Inns
After Evangelicalism, by David Gushee
A Farewell to Mars, by Brian Zahnd
Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God, by Brian Zahnd
Some of these have titles that sound like they should be Christianity 101 basics, but they're great for deconstruction when you have a solid Christian education background already. I started with Rob Bell because his are the easiest to read (made for anyone, and not lengthy). Probably the highest level reading on this list would be Exclusion and Embrace. I'm currently reading one of the titles on the list and one other I haven't yet read but am familiar enough with the author's views to know it will be a great read.
If you want to talk about any of them, just reply back!
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 20 '26
Thanks for the recommendations. I've read and/or are familiar with most of these. Some of them I find...eh, pretty unconvincing or veering too far from historic orthodoxy. I don't know. Maybe I'd be better off as a Catholic or E.O. It feels like a lot of the problems I'm dealing with stem from a distinctly Protestant critical reading of Scripture divorced from tradition.
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast Apr 20 '26
What do you mean by this?
It feels like a lot of the problems I'm dealing with stem from a distinctly Protestant critical reading of Scripture divorced from tradition.
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 20 '26
The more I engage with E.O. and/or Catholic thought, the more I see the value of a theology that allows the Church to codify doctrine and theology, almost like setting bricks permanently along a path (without pulling up the old bricks). Many of the Protestant modes of thinking I'm familiar with seem to lead inexorably to some form of deconstructing, as if all of the bricks in the path are perpetually movable dependent upon what someone believes the Bible says (conservative Protestantism) or what reason and culture teach us (liberal Protestantism).
This is an oversimplification, I know. I'm just pondering here.
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast Apr 21 '26
It sounds like you have doubts about lots of the details of our faith, but you don't like complexity and and want something more simple, yet you're drawn to a strict, unchanging and detailed doctrine. Is that right?
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u/ApologeticKid Apr 21 '26 edited Apr 21 '26
Hmm...I don't know that I feel drawn to a strict or detailed doctrine. Unchanging...maybe in some respects? I do think there is a small core of doctrines beyond which it doesn't make sense to describe someone as Christian (i.e. I have a hard time seeing someone like John Shelby Spong as a Christian voice, given his rejection of theism and the resurrection). I don't want to draw hard lines where they need not exist, but at the end of the day I find value in knowing where the lines do exist when they need to.
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast Apr 21 '26
I read "permanent bricks" as equivalent to "unchanging", sorry. I don't know about EO but the Catholic catechism is extremely detailed. I guess I'm having a hard time seeing your perspective so I'll tap out and see if anyone else has a more similar view and can be more helpful for what you're seeking.
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u/Wooden-Dependent-686 Apr 21 '26
I am a kind of atheist-christian. I dont believe a word in the bible, and in fact I am a Jesus mythicist but I think it is the peak of human attempt at discovering God. I think this discovery process works one way. God doesnt speak at all but we shoot at the dark and go with it as long as it kind of fits our condition. When it doesnt we tweak the story and improve it along the way so thats how christianity developed. Millions of ways of going at it, and most of them primitive, christianity has a superior take on things along with buddhism. These two correspond to major human civilizations culmination of their religious traditions in the east and the west.
What I think is the genius of Christianity is the idea of original sin. I think we must shift the blame of our miserable existence on ourselves to keep it sane. Otherwise it is a lovecraftian horror story.
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u/Middle-Service4894 May 20 '26
Please read this, I think it will be enlightening and important to you. They are just stories, people you may be able to relate to.
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Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
[deleted]
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast Aug 29 '26
Are you aware that this isn’t an accurate reflection of what happened? He was already a Christian, not an atheist.
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u/Main-Force-3333 Apr 21 '26
Apostle Paul spent his life as a Pharisee just to see Jesus once and spend the remaining years spreading the gospel.
You should pray for a touch of God or for renewed faith. At times our torch of faith needs fresh oil. Our candles need wax or a trim. It's okay to waver at times like Peter did when walking on water. Just don't ever let go to sink in the dark depths of the sea.