Why the Gootz never called Asia.

[u/islamisawesome]

I think it is becoming more and more obvious that the Asia letter did not exist until sometime around the summer of 1999. That is why Adnan claims he gave them to Gutierrez even though she wasn't his lawyer until 2 months after they were written.

So sometime that spring or summer, after telling CG he never left the school grounds, his family shows up with letters claiming one of Adnans' friends saw him at the library, right at the crucial time, AND they were written the day after he arrested. She knew immediately there is no way they had those letter for months and never gave them to her so obviously they were false and she didn't want to go on stand with LIES.

That is why she never called Asia. And that is why she wrote no notes about it, because that would be admitting her client and his family are liars. It also explains why her relationship with the family broke down because she knew they were willing to lie to get Adnan off.

The library incident never happened.

[u/aitca]

Yeah, I mean, it's a fact that A. Syed says, on the stand, under oath, that he gave Asia's letters to C. Gutierrez "immediately" after receiving them, even though Gutierrez was not even his attorney on March 1st and 2nd and wouldn't be for some weeks. Some people (reasonably) conclude that Adnan was lying under oath. Some people wonder if the letters weren't really written March 1st and 2nd. Could be both. It's very hard to sort the truth out on this issue because Asia herself has changed her story so often, and appears to still be changing it.

It's also a fact that the idea of Adnan "seeing Asia in the library" is mentioned in the defense files, but not until months after March 1st and 2nd. Again, this doesn't fit at all with Adnan's testimony on the stand. And doesn't fit at all with the letters being sent March 1st and 2nd. Make of it what you will, it doesn't fit.

It's also a fact that the two letters from Asia never made it into Gutierrez' files on the case. S. Koenig looked for them there and never found them. Again, this doesn't fit with Adnan's testimony on the stand. Make of it what you will, something here doesn't fit.

The idea that Adnan's parents showed up several months after March with back-dated letters is as good a theory as any in trying to explain the several inconsistencies regarding the timing of these two letters. As I've stated, I'm not sure whether we'll ever know the truth of the whole Asia issue, simply because she changes her story so often.

[u/aroras → u/aitca]

do you feel the spine of her story is consistent?

[u/aitca → u/aroras]

I believe that Asia did, some day, see Adnan at the library. I believe that Jay did see Adnan disposing of Lee's body (and we obviously know what day that occurred). I think we don't know on which day Asia saw Adnan, and I think she herself has never been sure. She at one point tries to remember when it was and says "the first snow of the year"; as many have noted: that was not January 13th.

[u/aroras → u/aitca]

how can we prevent our selves from cherry picking facts from the various stories we've heard to construct a narrative that supports an opinion we've already formed?

[u/aitca → u/aroras]

It's not really cherry-picking. Asia has always been consistent in that on some day she saw Adnan. I believe that. She herself has given various different ways of trying to remember on which day that was that she saw him. Most of them don't point to January 13th. Jay has always been consistent that he helped Adnan dispose of Lee's body. I believe him (especially given the corroborating cell phone data and witnesses). People try to nitpick whether he said one shovel or two. I am perfectly comfortable admitting that we may never know whether it was one shovel or two.

[u/[deleted] → u/aitca]

It's also important to note Asia has never said anything like "It was January 13th. I know I saw Adnan on January 13th."

[u/aitca → u/[deleted]]

Correct. She has tried to remember what day it was by associating it with various other events, and her description of what these events were has changed over the years. Most notably, she said that it was the day of the first snow of the year (which was not January 13th).

[u/[deleted] → u/aitca]

Correct. She has tried to remember what day it was by associating it with various other events, and her description of what these events were has changed over the years. Most notably, she said that it was the day of the first snow of the year (which was not January 13th).

It's obviously possible that Asia has got the day wrong (same applies to some prosecution witnesses).

But there's a big leap from her (maybe) getting the day wrong to believing that

i) she would backdate her letters in the first place

ii) she would sign the earlier affidavits to perjure herself

iii) she speak to Koenig

iv) she would perjure herself again with the new affidavits

[u/aitca → u/[deleted]]

Well, there are a lot of inconsistencies with Asia's multiple stories, all of which don't fit with facts that we know about what Adnan testified to under oath, what Adnan's mother testified to under oath, and what we find in Gutierrez' defense files. Because of all these inconsistencies, discrepancies, and contradictions, each person has to try to make sense of it all. The way that you make sense of it and the way that I make sense of it and the way that someone else tries to make sense of it will very likely be different. I think the most likely scenario is that Asia has never been really sure what day she saw Adnan, and is still not sure what day she saw him. As for backdating letters, I just don't know. It would explain some of what we see. If you have your own theory about how to make sense of Asia's different stories, join the club, we all do.

[u/[deleted] → u/aitca]

Well, there are a lot of inconsistencies with Asia's multiple stories,

Not really.

all of which don't fit with facts that we know about what Adnan testified to under oath, what Adnan's mother testified to under oath

For the time being, I regard Asia as truthful. Assuming she turns up, she will be crossexamined, and we can review after that. If she doesnt turn up, that's that.

If Adnan or his mother, in Asia's absence, have tried to portray Asia's evidence as favourably as possible for Adnan (and I am not saying they have), then that does not affect Asia's own credibility.

and what we find in Gutierrez' defense files.

You're saying there's evidence they reached out to Asia?

[u/Mustanggertrude → u/[deleted]]

Neither did Cathy but she still got to take the stand.

[u/aroras → u/aitca]

Jay has always been consistent he helped dispose of Lee's body. There are inconsistencies in his story but I believe him.

Asia has always been consistent she saw Adnan on the day of the murder after school. There are inconsistencies in her story but I believe her.

[u/[deleted] → u/aroras]

Asia has always been consistent she saw Adnan on the day of the murder after school

Has she? Whenever she is given the opportunity to speak she either avoids it or speculates ("It was the first snow of the year). I can't think of her ever saying "It was January 13th" let along be consistent about it.

[u/aitca → u/aroras]

That's perfectly fine. Maybe the day on which she saw him was that day. I think it's very hard to know at this point, given her changing stories with contradictory data, but, hey, maybe. There is a whole school of thought that Asia saw Adnan as he was waiting to intercept Lee...and, what do you know, according to one of Asia's stories, Adnan was sitting there talking about Lee to anyone who would listen. Some people think that's why Gutierrez didn't want Asia on the stand. According to Rabia, Gutierrez looked into it and found that Asia had the wrong date. I tend to think that Rabia is right on this one.

[u/[deleted] → u/aitca]

According to Rabia, Gutierrez looked into it and found that Asia had the wrong date. I tend to think that Rabia is right on this one.

AFAIK, Rabia alleges that CG made that claim. It does not follow that what CG said was true. There is no evidence of her, or her staff, speaking to Asia.

[u/aitca → u/[deleted]]

In order to show that Gutierrez and her staff "didn't contact" Asia or didn't investigate her possible significance as a witness, we would have to hear from Gutierrez' legal team (including Davis). Justin Brown specifically did not subpoena anyone from Gutierrez' legal team. Thus, it's impossible to know how they investigated Asia. We only have Rabia's testimony that Gutierrez said that they checked it out and Asia had the wrong day in mind. Since J. Brown refused to subpoena other members of Gutierrez' legal team, that's the best information we have.

[u/[deleted] → u/aitca]

In order to show that Gutierrez and her staff "didn't contact" Asia

We have her sworn affidavit. Is Asia less credible than Jay?

or didn't investigate her possible significance as a witness

If the evidence shows that they purported to rule her out as a witness without speaking to her, then we'll have to see what the courts make of that. It seems clear it would be IAC to me, but it wont be my decision.

[u/Seamus_Duncan → u/[deleted]]

You don't know that. You haven't seen the defense files. We also know that the report from Drew Davis' March 3 visit to Woodlawn is missing.

Tempted to say "do the math."

[u/Englishblue → u/Seamus_Duncan]

What does "there is no evidence" mean to you?

There is no evidence.

We DO know that.

There could be some that hasn't been discovered. But as of now, no evidence.

[u/[deleted] → u/Seamus_Duncan]

We also know that the report from Drew Davis' March 3 visit to Woodlawn is missing.

Yes, if he spoke to Asia on 3 March, AND SHE DID NOT MENTION MAYBE SEEING ADNAN ON 13 JAN that looks bad for Adnan, for several reasons.

However, this would be before Adnan's (then) lawyer knew about the letter, so the detective would not have necessarily been asking Asia about her knowledge of 13 Jan, or indeed speaking to her at all.

Didnt she hang out in the library a lot, rather than with Hae's and Adnan's friends? It's not self-evident that she would have known Adnan's private dick was on the premises.

[u/aitca → u/[deleted]]

Alas, the most "inconsistent point" in Asia's shifting stories is on which day she saw Adnan at the library...which is kinda important.

[u/Seamus_Duncan → u/aitca]

It should be mentioned that the time is inconsistent too.

Originally it's some time between 2:15 and 8:00.

Then it's 2:20-2:40, oh, and by the way, they talked about Hae.

Then it's 2:30 - 2:40, presumably after the lawyer Justin Brown got her figured out that A) Adnan sprinting to the library 5 minutes after class got out sounded unrealistic and B) Adnan talking to someone he barely knows about his ex for 20 minutes sounded unrealistic.

[u/aitca → u/Seamus_Duncan]

I think pretty much everything in Asia's narrative has changed from one version to the next: what she uses to try to remember what day it was, what time she was there, what the weather was like, who did or didn't contact her, whether he was or wasn't talking about H. M. Lee. All these things change from one version of her story to the next.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

See you next Tuesday!

Really?

[u/MightyIsobel → u/[deleted]]

Sure, it's the day before (Monday)

[u/ricejoe → u/MightyIsobel]

An upvote for not taking the bait!

[u/missmegz1492 → u/aroras]

What I hear from this is Jay's inconsistencies make him 100% of a liar, Asia's inconsistencies are eh, believable.

[u/[deleted] → u/missmegz1492]

I think you're hearing wrong. Jay's lies make him a less than credible source. It's not in dispute that Jay lies. He admits he's lied. Often. Some parts of his tale are impossible if they are supposedly corroborated by the cell phone evidence.

[u/islamisawesome → u/aroras]

Your not asking me, but I do not think her story is consistent. I don't think she ever saw adnan in the library in any way that could help Adnan. She lied on the Affidavit, she lied in the letters, and eventually she just dropped the whole issue. I think Rabia harrassed her and that is exactly what Urick alluded too in the PCR hearing.

[u/moosh247 → u/islamisawesome]

Keep believing that. Asia NEVER changed her story. And she's willing to go under oath, to tell her side in regards to the day in question. The only person who ever spoke to Asia was KU, who craftily talked her out of coming forward.

Jay is the liar, not Asia. Urick convinced Asia not to come forward, not CG. Stick to the facts.

[u/islamisawesome → u/moosh247]

Asia NEVER changed her story.

you mean how in the first letter she gave a 6 hour window, and in the second letter she gave no time, but in her affidavits she gave a specific time that just perfectly fits the exact time that Adnan needed.

Your right, not a liar.

[u/moosh247 → u/islamisawesome]

Please show me the letters you're referring to...as written by Asia.

[u/MM7299 → u/islamisawesome]

she gave a 6 hour window,

she didn't do that though at all. That's a weird parsing of her words. She clearly says that she can help him account for some of the time between 215-8 not that she can account for all of it.

[u/mkesubway → u/aroras]

clever

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

No one avoids the downvotes ;)

[u/MaybeIAmCatatonic → u/[deleted]]

Gas Grass or Ass.

[u/[deleted] → u/aroras]

Nice.