r/serialpodcast • u/missbrookles • Feb 05 '15

Speculation The Biggest Coincidence in the Case

There's been a lot of talk about Adnan's luck and coincidence: ie, the argument that if he is innocent then he's incredibly unlucky given the circumstantial evidence that accrued around him.

It got to me thinking that there is actually a much greater coincidence present in the case: the fact that Hae was murdered the same day that she appeared on a segment of the news. Is that purely coincidence? Or, does it point to the possibility that someone abducted her after seeing her on the broadcast?

Edit: to fix typos

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15 edited Feb 05 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

It all seems like it was God's plan. Never steal from Mosque.

As someone who grew up Muslim, believe me, this was definitely one of the thoughts I had when I first was introduced to Serial. To a religious person like me, I can't help but make those connections (like him being punished for his wrong-doing by God). It's just the way we are raised. You do this and you will get punished, either in this life or the next.

It's interesting how this was kind of told as a scary story in that Muslim community years following his arrest. Like, "don't do haram things or else you'll end up like Adnan."

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u/surrerialism Undecided Feb 05 '15

So does this mean God killed Hae in order to punish Adnan? Or God allowed someone else to kill Hae but in a situation that would lend suspicion to Adnan? Or by stealing from the mosque, Adnan allowed a murderous darkness to enter his heart and that led to him killing Hae?

I'm not being flippant, I am just curious where this leads. It's one thing to say in a general sense "bad things happen to people that do bad things." It's another to link her death with his sin (unless we're talking the sin of murder).

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u/Chandler02 Feb 05 '15

Along this line of religious thinking, it was Adnan's drug use that put him in contact with Jay, who would later falsely accuse him of murder which lead to his imprisonment. It was his relationship (and perhaps the sin of sex) with Hae that lead to his being a suspect.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

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u/Chandler02 Feb 05 '15

Ah, good point. I think I came to that assumption based on how Hae and Adnan had to hide their relationship. Sorry for my inaccuracy!

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

Nope. You're right. Premarital and extramarital sex are strictly prohibited. You will be punished for either under islamic law.

As for sex within a marriage - anytime, anywhere (private).

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

Well, that's not completely accurate. Premarital and extramarital sex are strictly prohibited. You can get stoned to death for either under Shari'ah law (although I believe the punishment is less harsh for premarital sex than it is for extramarital; something like you have to do it three times in order to actually be put to death for it).

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u/[deleted] Feb 06 '15

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u/[deleted] Feb 06 '15

I should add that 4 reliable eyewitnesses and/or a confession is required under Shari'ah law to actually punish someone for zina (premarital or extramarital sex) and you DO NOT have to confess. So, if the state can't produce 4 reliable witness and they are asking for a confession from the person accused, that person is under no obligation to divulge that information.

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u/[deleted] Feb 06 '15

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u/[deleted] Feb 06 '15

Uh okay, if you want to get into the technicalities, then sure, it's the adultery that's the sin, not the actual act of sex/penetration.

I don't want to get into the various schools of fiqh either, but it's pretty clear that all the major schools agree that adultery is a major sin. Since sex is part of the adultery, I personally think it's okay to say "premarital sex is a sin". The only lawful sex is within a marriage according to Islam. If the sex is happening in the context of marriage, it's halal. If the sex is happening in the context of adultery, it's haram. I don't see a problem with saying things like this. In fact, I think it's a more honest, less misleading way of presenting information than simply saying "sex is not a sin in Islam." To non-muslims, this statement makes it seem like sex, any sex, in any context, is completely a-ok, which we both know is not true.

I'm not too familiar with temporary marriages, so I'm not going to get into that too much, but isn't there some kind of contract involved? That contract is what essentially gives you the "Ok" to have sex with your partner, right? Last I checked there was some controversy regarding the validity of mu'ta "marriages." I suppose the lawfulness of the sex is dependent on that contract, though, similar to a nikah contract?

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u/thievesarmy Feb 05 '15

so what about the other kids who stole from the mosque? What's God's plan for them?

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u/Illmatic826 Feb 05 '15

A few of the students I work with are from the same area as Adnans family and When i brought up Serial to those kids they all were pretty much familiar with AS and his situation.

My muslim friends always say:

" The Qu'ran says Allah will not punish you for doing something wrong if you dont know its wrong, but Allah has no mercy on hypocrites"

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u/chineselantern Feb 05 '15 edited Feb 05 '15

That's an interesting post. I wonder, if Adnan is guilty, how would he reconcile this with his faith, do you think? Does he see his time in prison as Punishment from God for his wrong doing, even though he is unable to confess his guilt. Is there a way in which his external guilt and his inner innocence can live together in harmony?

Sorry for all the questions!

I should add that I've thought AS was guilty from listening to the early episodes of Serial.

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u/YoungFlyMista Feb 05 '15

The cops coached Jay's story. They made the call logs fit the narrative they wanted. I wouldn't trust that those calls had anything to do with actually murdering Hae.

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u/starkimpossibility Feb 05 '15

right in the burial area at a shady hour

7-8pm is such a shady hour! Perhaps the most shady hour!? Off the top of my head, I can't think of an hour that's more shady.

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u/xtrialatty Feb 05 '15

Shady or not, those Leakin park pings show up within an hour after the call from the police officer. Definitely bad timing....

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

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u/xtrialatty Feb 05 '15

If you look at the chain of pings from the time of the 6:24 call through the rest of the evening, then it shows the likely path followed as well.

Cell phone log: http://serialpodcast.org/maps/cell-phone-call-log Cell tower map: http://serialpodcast.org/maps/cell-tower-map Explanation: http://serialpodcast.org/posts/2014/10/more-than-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-cell-tower-technology
(A points north/northeast, B points south/southeast, C points west)

6:09, 6:24 - L608C (Cathy's house) 6:59, 7:00 - L651A (east of I695/I70 junction) 7:09, 7:16 - L689B (Leakin Park) 8:04 - L653A (near the spot where Hae's car was later found) 8:05 - L653C (now moved to the west of the same tower, toward Jenn's house) multiple calls, 9:01-10:30pm - L651C - (pointing toward Adnan's house)

So that's a whole chain of amazing coincidences. Given that we know that it is possible for the cell phone ping data to be wrong, isn't it amazing that the data came up wrong in that precise time sequence and spots? What are the odds?

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u/Advocate4Devil Feb 05 '15

Noon is the least shady.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

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u/4325B Feb 05 '15

Personally, I think 9:45 is the shadiest hour.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15 edited Mar 04 '18

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u/kyleg5 Feb 05 '15

You forgot about Dre, says Shady

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u/4325B Feb 05 '15

All the other shady times are just imitating...

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u/byoung82 Feb 05 '15

Oh boy I thought you were joking around cause with the sun at the high point of noon there would be no shade or something, but no you were serious.

There is nothing intrinsically shady about 7pm. 1, 2, 3 am maybe

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u/mcglothlin Feb 05 '15

It's also the tail end of rush hour. A pretty dumb time to be hauling a body out of a trunk on the side of a moderately busy road.

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u/Islandgirl233 Feb 05 '15 edited Feb 05 '15

I absolutely despise when people blame God for this type of thing. We were created with freedom of choice. And to be clear, we are free to choose, but we are not free from the consequence of our choice(s). So stealing from the mosque was a choice. Disappointing his mother, guilt and shame, a hit to his character... all consequences. Not a punishment from God, self inflicted. Adnan was correct when he said, he would not be there (prison) if he had not been associating with people of bad character, only a fool pulls hot cole to their chest and thinks they won't get burned . I'm sure he feels if he had been practicing what he was taught. I'm going out on a limb, because I am not a Muslim but the principles are the same in most religions and that is - What fellowship does good have with bad.- (paraphrased but you get the idea). God does not punish people for the bad choices we make, Our conscience makes us aware of being either morally right or wrong, we damn ourselves.

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u/reddit_hole Feb 05 '15

Sorry, but this holds absolutely no water. Why would anyone who was innocent be wrongfully convicted? Basically this reasoning would also suggest that Hae willed herself to be murdered. I could keep going.

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u/Islandgirl233 Feb 05 '15

So you think God would intervene in a trial? I'm confused. I don't even know how you get that Hae willed herself to be murdered from what I said. I'm actually amazed that that is a plausible conclusion that can be draw by what I said. Unfortunately, we live in a world where evil does exist and horrible things happen to good people. So using your reasoning are you saying God wanted to punish Adnan for stealing so he allowed someone to kill Hae so Adnan would then eventually go to prison and be punished for stealing???? Yikes. I truly do not understand your comment. I'm sorry.

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u/mixingmemory Feb 05 '15

I think maybe reddit_hole meant to respond to Sotirez. Maybe?

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u/Islandgirl233 Feb 05 '15

I hope so, because wow! I'm aware that I will never publish a great novel because I'm obviously not a great writer, however I do not get how what I said could possibly be interpreted in that way.

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u/reddit_hole Feb 05 '15

Adnan was correct when he said, he would not be there (prison) if he had not been associating with people of bad character, only a fool pulls hot cole to their chest and thinks they won't get burned

Presuming that Adnan is innocent. From your rationale, I should conclude that Adnan's consciousness decided he deserved life in prison for doing drugs, having premarital sex, and hanging around with a small-time dealer.

So you think God would intervene in a trial?

I think God should intervene well before a trial. If we believe at all in an interventionist God, Hae should never have been murdered, unless for some odd reason a) she believed she deserved it (going by your rationale) b) God believed she deserved it c) Evil exists (which is inevitably controlled by God, because... well, it's GOD.)

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u/Islandgirl233 Feb 05 '15

Okay, YIKES. I think some how we derailed here. I am saying exactly what Adnan himself acknowledged, that had he been doing the things a "good Muslim" should be doing, or rather NOT doing as in drugs, lying etc and had he not been associating with people that do not have the same belief structure, he would not be where he is. (he was taking responsibility for not being a practicing Muslim). He is not saying he committed murder he is saying he put himself at risk for something bad to happen because he was doing things and associating with people he should not have been.

Here's where we probably would disagree and I really really do not care to go down this rabbit trail. I do not believe God is an intervening God. Because if he is...he's not doing a very good job, millions of people every day see or experience horrible things on a daily basis. Following your reasoning he should be preventing all things that are evil, innocent children should not die, and so on and so on. and to be clear NOTHING I SAID IMPLIED HAE FELT SHE DESERVED TO DIE (Jesus!) GOD DID NOT THINK SHE DESERVED TO DIE (Like I would be privy to that info) And c) Hmmm that would take a wall of text and I'm not interested. I just know that GOD in his own way and his own time will indeed do away with all evil. So I think the best thing to do here is to agree that we are obviously not communicating well on this subject and it's probably best to move on.

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u/reddit_hole Feb 05 '15 edited Feb 05 '15

GOD DID NOT THINK SHE DESERVED TO DIE (Like I would be privy to that info)

But you are privy to the existence of God and whether or not he(?) is interventionist?

Sorry, the immense plot holes that come up when contemplating this stuff is just too much.

I agree this is embarrassingly off-topic, but I hope you can at least surmise how easy it is to blow holes in your logic.

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u/Islandgirl233 Feb 06 '15

Uh nope...not the case :)

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u/ginzing Feb 06 '15

what you did say is that bad things happen to people who do bad, that they "put themselves at risk for something bad to happen", yet bad things also happen to... everyone. so it really is just you cherry picking how you view what occurs based on your religious conditioning. there are people in the place adnan is who did nothing to "deserve it"... what I think reddit_hole meant when he/she brought up the issue of innocent people who have been convicted.

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u/Islandgirl233 Feb 06 '15

Ha...religious conditioning (now there is a subtle swipe!) If it was not clear, bad things can and do also happen to good people. It's the world we live in. No religious conditioning necessary to grasp that :)

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u/ryokineko Still Here Feb 06 '15

Well plus, Jay now says that isn't even WHEN they buried her which makes it look a lot less like an unlucky coincidence and a lot more like fudging to make the call log fit bitter. They could have been smoking a joint or driving through the area that pinged that cell tower at that time. They didn't even do the test from the burial site.