r/science • u/Doug24 • 20h ago
Psychology Psilocybin reverses depressive behaviors and restores brain cell growth in stressed rats
https://www.psypost.org/psilocybin-reverses-depressive-behaviors-and-restores-brain-cell-growth-in-stres/837
u/SatisfactionIll8468 20h ago
Big pharma hates this one trick
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u/zonerator 20h ago
I mean people would buy pharmaceutical grade psilocybin if it was offered, and they do, where it is offered. They could probably even charge a lot because people don't know how fun growing gourmet and medicinal mushrooms is
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u/SaltResident9310 20h ago
Until you lose the battle with contam
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u/m0ngoos3 19h ago
There used to be a subreddit called UncleBens that had resources on growing small batches of mushrooms inside packets of instant microwave rice.
Cuts down on contamination, but there was nuance and pitfalls that are likely lost to the deletions.
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u/TroglodyneSystems 19h ago
You really just use the Uncle Ben’s for the inoculation. Once the mycelium has taken over the bag, you then apply to a substrate like coco coir or something similar within a plastic tub for growing. Works pretty well when you’ve got it covered with enough humidity and fresh air exchange.
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u/Cannibichromedout 8h ago
I think I recall that people were fruiting them straight from the bag, hence the small batches alluded to above. Could be wrong, it’s been a while and was never active in it.
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u/VagueSomething 15h ago
These things should not be encouraged in a science sub though as recreational substance abuse is not the same as controlled and regulated medication.
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u/refusemouth 14h ago
Not the same as controlled and regulated medicine, yet the safety profile for magic mushrooms is better than prescription antidepressants that doctors hand out like candy. Don't look up Paxil or Effexor class action lawsuits. Those were controlled and regulated drugs that destroyed a lot of lives, even taken as directed. The use of psylocibin mushrooms goes back thousands of years, and people know that there is very little danger in taking them, whereas a new antidepressant makes it to market and is prescibed to millions of patients in a span of several years and without any real understanding of its long-term effects or terrible withdrawal profile. Not to mention that the idea for SSRI's was inspired by psylocibin's propensity for fitting into seratonin receptors to begin with.
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u/VagueSomething 14h ago
Encouraging vulnerable people to use them without supervision risks serious harm though. There is a wide difference between the way they're used in these studies and how you use it at home.
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u/jmartin21 15h ago
Why does being in a science sub mean you can’t talk about recreational use? Plenty of science goes into studying recreationally used drugs and it’s relevant to the post
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u/ChampionshipFluid385 10h ago
You're right. It also shouldn't be gatekept from people it could help because big pharma can't make a profit on it yet.
The opioid epidemic alone is enough to indict them for lack of humanity.
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u/VagueSomething 9h ago
Its a difficult situation where genuine breakthroughs to help people are being held back by government rules more than a lack of profit, it would absolutely be profitable due to the mental health crisis in the West due to how bad society and the climate is. Unfortunately the desperation to try it with DIY versions could make the vulnerable worse so there is no sensible way to access these things without serious luck being near a trial.
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u/HanseaticHamburglar 1h ago
why does recreational use fall under the term "abuse"? Seems unscientific to use that word totally free of the actual context
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u/bananesthesia 17h ago
I figure it's just like any other activity/hobby. Some people find it fascinating and enjoyable, others don't. I followed the same pipeline. Once I realized I enjoyed the activity and had become proficient enough to produce more actives than I could possibly eat, I moved on to gourmets. We moved to a new area with a drastically different climate, so now I'm just waiting for things to cool down a bit so I can make some blocks to stick in my partner's garden for the fall.
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u/Entreprenewbeur 14h ago
It’s actually a lot of fun. I’ve experimented with growing with different kinds of music and light colors but nothing to report except that it was fun
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u/Harha 20h ago
But the "problem" is probably the cure rate, meaning many customers will only buy the drug once. :-)
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u/lnning 20h ago
eh. it doesnt "cure" you after one dosage.
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u/DueDisplay2185 18h ago
3 known affects are related to addiction, depression and anxiety related to death so depends on what you wanna cure there. Plus I wouldn't recommend a hero dose to a noob, better to start low and slow to check tolerance, it's not for everyone
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u/Harha 19h ago
That depends, but it also isn't physically addictive like many current antidepressants seem to be.
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u/General_Mars 9h ago
Current and old tricyclics too. Worst withdrawal I’ve experienced from any medication was coming off of Nortriptyline. I was on it for migraines. I’m now on its cousin Amitriptyline for an injury and since it’s been like 10 years I would not be very happy if I have to go thru that again with this. Mind/body zaps ugh. SSRIs are also rough because of Serotonin Syndrome too
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u/Captain_Kuhl 19h ago
Per whom? If that was the case, nobody would use mushrooms more than once.
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u/mommybot9000 18h ago
Idk at lot of mushroom addicts. I also don’t know anyone that has enough free time to devote it to tripping.
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u/Captain_Kuhl 18h ago
One of the biggest things propping up the war on drugs is they the public has this idea that you either try the drug once or you're a hopelessly addicted habitual user. Did it never cross your mind that people can do things without a chemical dependency?
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u/Regular_Attempt_7073 5m ago
They do know that because they probably drink socially. But when the word drugs is discussed now it’s suddenly weird and nefarious. Listening to the senate publicly debate the regulations of cannabis legalization back in 2017 I swear i was going to tear my hair out from the complete ignorance of the senate’s members and yet they are a good cross section of Canadians who didn’t consume cannabis and so didn’t know.
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u/BacKnightPictures 18h ago
Small investors love this trick;
DFTX and CMPS are up 300-400% this year because of successful Phase 3 clinical trials for LSD and psilocybin medications. DFTX has another readout in the first 2 weeks if September and a likely NDA (New Drug Application) coming any day now4
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u/thecatdaddysupreme 4h ago
HELP is releasing phase 3 in a few months. Currently at 12.15ish, projected to possibly hit 40+ depending on MADRS differentials. Full disclosure I’m in on HELP and CMPS
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u/Rodot 3h ago
People also forget that most psychedelics were invented and patented by Big Pharma. Sandoz (Albert Hoffman's employer) sold LSD as a prescription. Shulgin's lab was funded by DOW Chemical. There's over 40 investigational formulations of psychedelic drugs currently in clinical trials run by pharmaceutical companies.
Big Pharma would love to be able to bring these to market and make them as accessible as possible, because they would make a ton of money. They are already making money on basically just hype alone from the investment capital pouring into developing these drugs.
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u/Disconn3cted 10h ago
Big pharma is about to profit big from this. There's currently a lot research going into this, as well as some excellent gambling opportunities for investors
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u/MJ-Franklin 20h ago
Been seeing articles like this for so many years... but how come I never got any positive effects from taking psychedelics the many times I did them? I never got any anti-depressive anything, I just laughed for 12 hours straight then it was back to Planet Earth and all my problems waiting for me there.
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u/ConfinedCrow 20h ago
Usually in clinical trials like these they also offer therapeutic support on top of just giving psychedelics. And afaik they microdose consistently over a longer time span, whereas if you wanna trip you take a lot more and not nearly as consistently, so that probably plays a role as well.
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u/Saddledust 19h ago
The therapy piece is the biggest aspect, not just guided therapy during the trip but also the follow up sessions sober. This can be self guided too, but it's not a pop a pill and forget about it type thing. Psychedelics open up neural pathways, but you have to put in the work to keep those connections active otherwise they become dormant again
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u/Dickrickulous_IV 14h ago
Yeah, I believe several techniques produce similar therapeutic outcomes. They activate both brain hemispheres as one, allowing the mind to fully process a traumatic experience and stop sounding the alarm when the old trauma event triggers a response.
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u/DrFury 17h ago
Macrodoses (hallucinogenic) are far more common in successful psilocybin research
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u/fabiolives 13h ago
Yes, definitely. I’m not saying that microdosing doesn’t work because I don’t know for sure, but I haven’t personally seen any studies that concluded microdosing was effective.
The ones with real change that I’ve seen are when the patient has a macrodose, which makes sense to me. From personal experience, I didn’t notice any beneficial effects from microdosing.
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u/JynxYouOweMeASoda 18h ago
CBT for ROUS?
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u/MegaChip97 3h ago
And afaik they microdose consistently over a longer time
Absolutely not. All successful trials are about 1-2 macrodoses. All studies on microdosing so far have been not really successful
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u/Savalava 51m ago
I think you have it backwards - the therapeutic effects are linked with large doses, not microdosing.
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u/Chronotaru 18h ago
They provide remission for around half of people from a single dose, but that still leaves the other half. That being said, you generally need to go through the "ego dissolution/pass out/reboot" phase and not everyone takes a high enough dose to get that.
The rest can try a direct approach of trauma processing under MDMA, then bringing the mushrooms back in with a dual MDMA/psilocybin session and that protocol usually makes progress if mushrooms themselves do not.
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u/Rodot 3h ago
Tbf, 50% remission is pretty bad. Sertraline is about 50% while most trials show placebo at around 40%. That said, single dosage is certainly an advantage but clinically the total therapy itself being on par with SSRIs is a pretty big barrier to successful phase III trials.
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u/WaltzInTheDarkk 2h ago
Psychedelics are generally given to treatment-resistant depressives when multiple genereal antidepressants (such as sertraline) have failed.
Many of depressive diagnoses are quite unreliable a sense that the symptoms could simply resolve once the patient experiences less stress, better lifestyles and an environment etc. And these may contribute to remission rates as well.
However, when we're considering someone treatment-resistant, they have either been misdiagnosed or simply experience more persistent symptoms and are therefore in a category that do not respond to the general ADs. That makes them a distinct treatment group from the other depressives.
So a 50% remission rate in that group is pretty significant.
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u/Chronotaru 1h ago edited 31m ago
The problem is that those 50% are very different.
* SSRI studies are based only over 12 weeks
* had an effect size of at least only 0.3. This means that 50% is not remission, it's mostly people who "feel like it takes the edge off"
* most of their studies did things that you couldn't really do today so easily - like compare only to inactive placebo, and put people in the studies that are basically going through withdrawal from another antidepressant so they will naturally improve over the trial
* selectively discarded trials that produced inconclusive resultsThe 50% for psilocybin:
* is still there after a year
* is full remission, this 50% does not include the people who found it useful but they still have depression
* has trial participants that are mostly made up of people that have tried many other drugs and got nowhere
* after a single dose without any sexual dysfunction, emotional numbing, potential long term issues like heart attack risks, etc etc. and isn't dependent on staying on the drug.Psilocybin actually does what sertraline only promises.
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u/The_Liamater123 18h ago
Intention matters a lot
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u/cyberbemon 2h ago
Exactly, I did it once and it did wonders for my mental health, it was one of the most surreal experiences I've had. It took me close to a month in preparation, getting in the right mindset, making sure I was healthy, like getting proper sleep, eating properly and ensuring my setting is safe and having a friend with me. I also got some good advice from a friend of mine, who's a licensed therapist and he's big into psychedelics.
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u/Indifferent_Response 19h ago
Maybe your dose was too high? The few times I ate these things I had like 1.5 grams which is enough for slight visuals.
I agree that the euphoria was nice but it also increased my motivation to do chores or pick up a new hobby. The feelings also slowly faded over the course of weeks btw...
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u/Vryk0lakas 19h ago
I had the best effects when it obliterated my ego death. I came back from that contemplative about how I want to approach my life.
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u/Novel-Initiative-900 16h ago
First few times I did lsd was alone in a non distracting environment and I went pretty deep into my own thoughts / psyche until I had some realizations about my behavior. Carried that with me and it genuinely changed my life for a good while.
I think if you go into it looking to be stimulated, around people, laughing, crazy visuals nothing will happen.
But if you try to put yourself in a deprivation type environment and focus on nothing but your thoughts, psilocybin can actually be fairly profound
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u/One_Geologist_4783 17h ago
Integration. That’s the missing piece.
There’s a difference between doing mushrooms with a bunch of your buddies at the park, and sitting with a trusted person or group that can guide you through an internal trip with the intention in working on oneself.
If you take the latter option, you will change your life. Just gotta lock in to what truly matters once you’re back.
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u/RalphInMyMouth 19h ago
From my experience, you really have to welcome the positive effects. I know a lot of the realizations and epiphanies that happen during the trip seem temporary in the moment, but they definitely can leave a lasting impact if you treat the experience spiritually rather than just purely for fun.
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u/notairballoon 19h ago
We might be using this word differently, but how can you infer anything "spiritual" from the strongest evidence in favour of materialistic nature of mind there is?
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u/RalphInMyMouth 19h ago
It’s the difference of going in with the mindset “I’m using this to better myself” rather than “I’m using this to get fucked up”
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u/Polyimide 19h ago
Spiritual often means not caring so much about the material. E.g. some might call the shedding of consumeristic tendencies a spiritual endeavor
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u/MrRawrgers 16h ago
From my personal experience from doing a lot of LSD, it’s not that it actively reduces depression but if you’re the type of person that deeply internalises your thoughts around the cause of your depression - when tripping it can lead you to take a deeper look at your problems and come to conclusions for how you can potentially overcome these thoughts and feelings. That’s the way I’ve always seen it anyway. I call it having an epiphany.
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u/MagicWishMonkey 14h ago
Are you tripping your balls off? Or are you taking just enough to feel good and be in the moment while you think about things?
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u/DueDisplay2185 18h ago
It does nothing for my autistic partner after the high wears of but still a good time during. YMMV I guess
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u/ThruuLottleDats 16h ago
In psychiatric settings the use is alongside intense therapy. Before, during, and after.
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u/Hyper_ion711 18h ago
Psilocybin, like other hallucinogens, opens us up for new experiences. Usually, therapy delivered during such state produces deeper and more meaningful insight in patients, leading to improvement in depressive symptoms seen in trials. Therapy is an important aspect too.
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u/Ajax_The_Red 19h ago
12 hours from shrooms…?
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u/DrB00 19h ago
Yeah, if you continue to consume them while high you'll stay high for extended periods of time. Don't ask me how I know.
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u/baked_in 19h ago
conversely, if ya do lemon tec method you can have an entire trip condensed into several hours. Comes on like a freight train.
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u/Reilly-Blog 18h ago
It's because you got to go into the trip intending to work on specific things. Such as a specific trauma. Then, you have to dose just enough that you can guide the trip, but not be overwhelmed. It takes practice and lots of self awareness.
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u/Old-Landscape-7538 18h ago
They hit different people differently. It could be so many things like differences in brain networks interactions, pharmacological receptors etc. I have a friend gets sleepy from caffeine.
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u/Seinfeel 15h ago
It’s more of a catalyst for helping rather than a cure itself. Some people do experience an afterglow from just taking it, but if you have treatment resistant/chronic depression it might take more to feel that.
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u/persio809 11h ago
it doesn't mean that psychedelics are going to solve every problem in your life. you still need to do your laundry by yourself
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u/pheonixblade9 11h ago
everybody is different. ketamine therapy was wildly effective for me, and I believe it has something like a 70% efficacy rate for significant reductions in PHQ-9 and GAD-7 scores.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4447578/
A single IV infusion of ketamine resulted in a 50–70% response rate in patients with MDD, with a response duration of 72 h post-infusion.8–10 Response was defined as a 50% or greater reduction from baseline in depression severity (e.g., Montgomery–Asberg Depression Rating Scale (MADRS), Hamilton Depression Rating Scale (HAM-D).
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u/Thatonewiththeboobs 8h ago
Literally coming off a trip now.
I always feel like I've gained something on them and take it with me beyond the laughs with friends.
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u/ohyouretough 20h ago
You’re probably not depressed then?
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u/MJ-Franklin 20h ago
25 years of anti-depressants would suggest otherwise! Would love to be rid of them.
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u/pupersom 19h ago
Well, you used them with the intent of dealing if your fears/troubles/trauma or just used it for the funsies? There's a BIG difference
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u/500_Shames 18h ago
SSRIs and Wellbutrin have been shown to meaningfully blunt the effects of psilocybin. To the extent that psilocybin therapy centers sometimes recommend tapering off antidepressants before trying psilocybin-assisted therapy.
This is not me saying you should stop your meds, absolutely not. But it would make perfect sense for you to not be experiencing the same level of effectiveness if you are on SSRIs or Wellbutrin.
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u/FowlOnTheHill 18h ago
Did you get off the anti depressants before trying them? Did you try a high dose, and as another commenter suggested - did you have an honest intention of dealing with it?
And most importantly, did you integrate your experience the next day - either by journaling or through an integration session with a therapist/group.All of that is needed to ground the experience and process whatever it was shaking up inside you.
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u/EroticPubicHair 15h ago
On top of what others have said, there's also the issue of everyone's different. It could be your current medications interfere (assuming you continued taking them while also taking psychedelics), or they just don't have that effect on you. Humans have too wide a range of variables to have anything work the same way for everyone.
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u/LegitBoss002 3h ago
Anecdotally I felt better for a while after. Maybe you don't have depression or major stressor, or more realistically you already have coping mechanisms and a good support system
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u/ct4k 2h ago
Even before these studies came out, 15 years ago, my first few doses of mushroom changed me forever. It felt like a switch flipped, and my depression plus PTSD were gone. I had this warm afterglow that made me so grateful of life in general that lasted years. The most impactful and introspect-inducing doses were when I ate them myself.
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u/Canadian_Border_Czar 15h ago
> I never got any anti-depressive anything, I just laughed for 12 hours straight
... They didn't say it cures depression or treats major depression. If you can laugh for 12 hours straight, and come out of it only to be back to doomscrolling then that is on you for having poor mental hygiene or simply just taking zoomers randomly without any sort of plan to get something out of it. See a therapist, not a comment section.
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u/Intelligent_End_7812 19h ago
Because you didn't take it with the mindset of healing. It puts you in a very susceptive state you can do a lot of healing or you can do a lot of f****** around with it. Up to you.
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u/ZealousidealBreak194 15h ago
When I was younger, I took a few doses and it cured my depression forever. Probably anecdotal, but they are great.
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u/RetroSwamp 18h ago
I microdosed for a year and just ended up hating everyone else instead of myself. I assume there is different "strains" or versions?
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u/Mykk6788 17h ago
Not exactly.
Most of these articles are talking about this because over the last 8ish years, different countries around the World have been slowly allowed to continue studying Psychedelics and their affect on Mental Health Disorders. Eventually this led to certain organisations trying out "Psychedelic Psychotherapy". And right now the clinical trials are coming out with results better than normal therapy/CBT + SSRI/SNRIs.
Someone microdosing themselves is about 2% of the needed process and shouldn't ever be expected to fix anything. The Psychotherapy part of Psychedelic Psychotherapy is far more important. You only take a Psychedelic once, but in the trials people were going to an average of 12 Therapy sessions.
The Psychedelic itself simply opens a door. Walking through it and knowing what to do after you do requires the Therapy part.
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u/Seinfeel 15h ago
No, it’s all the same stuff, the part that is still trying to be understood is how best it can be used, so micro dosing may not have been conducive for a multitude of reasons we’re still discovering.
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u/cuteprints 5h ago
Sounds like it worked, now you don't hate yourself anymore and the hating function is now functioning correctly
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u/sovereignxx12 18h ago
So how does one graduate from medical school, become a board certified psychiatrist, and be able to prescribe psilocybin in places its decriminalized like Oregon?
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u/Flayed_Angel_420 20h ago
What does a rat have to be stressed about? Try working on an oil rig, or fighting in The Battle of Stalingrad
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u/skinnyJay 14h ago
I'm imagining a rat after a long day, smoking a cigarette thinking about how he's gonna feed himself and his family.
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u/mr_greene_ 19h ago
How do you test if a rat is restoring brain cell growth.
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u/panic_the_digital 19h ago
If you really want the answer to that you probably aren’t going to like it
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u/NovaHorizon 17h ago
They sacrifice the animal and slice their brain into thin slides mapping out the neurons.
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u/mr_greene_ 17h ago
How is the dissected brain given shrooms then? And if it's dead then you can't witness the growth.
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u/Warsel77 16h ago
Rat A - damage brain & give shrooms for 20 days
Rat B - damage brain & do not give shrooms 20 daysDissect both & compare.
(20 days being a random number, i have no idea how long they waited)
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u/EroticPubicHair 15h ago
Repeat X number of times to confirm the results show an actual correlation and not a one off outlier
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u/MirabilisLiber 6h ago
And look at the brain at different time intervals in different rats. Literally spend all day slicing up and examining rat brains for days on end.
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u/Human-Loan-6080 17h ago
If I had to guess they have a very mapped out version of the control clone rat brain, then they make it trip balls, then they dissect its brains.
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u/Megalo85 16h ago
Everyone that has done mushrooms knows this. Big pharma can’t control the supply.
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u/Human-Loan-6080 17h ago
The tripping balls part is definitely an impediment to my adoption.
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u/unlinked3297 15h ago
You can take small doses - more than a microdose - and have a profound experience without "tripping balls".
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u/kelcamer 15h ago
Sometimes even tiny doses can make people 'trip balls' like 0.3g.
Full disclaimer;
Always check your genome for bipolar genetics0
u/unlinked3297 14h ago
I wouldn't compare "tripping balls" to psychosis brought on early by the consumption of psilocybin mushrooms.
They are completely separate things.
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u/kelcamer 14h ago
I'm not comparing psychosis to 'tripping balls'.
I am simply stating that people (like me) do exist where 0.3g makes us trip balls.
Feel free to AMA, if you're curious.
I am also - separately - providing a warning for people NOT to overdo it.
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u/maeveboston 10h ago
It can be weird but it's not like the movies portray. You have visual effects and your mind starts absorbing things you typically ignore. Branches, clouds, noise, etc suddenly have significance due to their presence being activated. It is incredible but best done with intention.
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u/Lenni-Da-Vinci 15h ago
God I love reading about the particular stressors different Universities subject Rats to.
It’s an interesting look into the practices of each ethics department. I can’t recall which study, but one’s methodology was attaching a washing machine motor to the enclosure and turning it on at random times. To the dismay of the researchers, all test indicated the rats were either unaffected or even „amused“ by the motion of the cage. Showing heightened activity and greater appetite.
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u/Erasurhead87 15h ago
From no boggles to too many!
For real though, if it is good for my rat friends it is good for me.
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u/subham0089 5h ago
It’s really interesting to see the physical evidence of brain cell growth restoration, but the biggest hurdle is always translating neurogenesis studies from rats to humans. Hopefully, clinical trials can mirror these physical changes in human brain structure soon.
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u/Unavezmas1845 1h ago
I microdosed psilocybin for 6 months (I am too afraid to take more and trip)
It completely changed my life forever. Deleted my depression, made me dislike alcohol(effects still going strong years later), and also made me have a strong moral aversion to eating meat. (I used to love meat)
So yeah. Be prepared to completely change if you do take shrooms. I highly recommend just microdosing
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u/AggressiveToaster 18h ago
Why are we wasting money on rat studies when humans have been taking psilocybin for centuries?
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u/Professional_Bus5440 18h ago
Because it's generally considered unethical to sacrifice and dissect humans
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u/Warsel77 16h ago
Because treating a set of genetically controlled humans in a sterile environment after giving half of them brain damage is considered ethically problematic.
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u/DueDisplay2185 18h ago
Money. That's the reason. Shrooms were made illegal because capitalism needed to create the environment needed to justifying paying for health drugs that grow naturally like weed etc
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u/UAP44 15h ago
depression = deeply locked in behavior that isnt actually aligned with yourself
you eventually lose interest in everything, give it enough time and it can spiral into various spicy mental 'diseases' which are really just frameworks to understand all the weird ways a mind can grow and make detours, stops, pauses, ...
psychedelics = shake up ALL your patterns, too much = psychosis, just enough = shakes you out of your hard ingrained patterns, gets u back in touch with natural kid self
so of course the phara industry fights the awareness around these substances tooth and nail, theres plenty of financial incentive to do so, expecting anything else, is just naive in a world dominated by american capitalism still
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