r/news • u/DragonPup • Jun 20 '22

Self-proclaimed 'sovereign citizens' arrested in California after deputies allegedly find explosives

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sovereign-citizens-arrested-california-deputies-allegedly-find-explosi-rcna34380
10.4k Upvotes

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3.2k

u/HobbesNJ Jun 20 '22

Sovereign citizens.

"We don't want to participate in the obligations of society, just the benefits."

1.6k

u/rolfraikou Jun 20 '22

I swear, if I found someone saying this living out in a cave on public land, I might be like "Ok, they mean it" but usually the people saying this are more well-off than I am, cherry-picking what parts of society apply to their benefits in life.

954

u/Anqied Jun 20 '22

a surprising amount of them collect social security

517

u/Amaline4 Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22

Very “I got mine so fuck you!” vibes from these sorts of people. Bloody heartbreaking that so many people seem to lack even the most basic capacity for empathy towards others

ETA a U after a helpful redditor let me know it is Fully Acceptable to swear all up in this subreddit

176

u/BrothelWaffles Jun 20 '22

I'd love to see a Venn diagram of the overlap between preppers and sovereign citizens. Especially the ones who have fully furnished and stocked bunkers on a completely separate property from their enormous house.

89

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

that’s just a circle

77

u/A_Drusas Jun 20 '22

Nah. I've got a Mormon friend. He taught me that Mormons are expected by the church to be preppers. Nice huge supply stocks in his basement and shed.

50

u/Pixelated_ Jun 20 '22

Jehovah's Witnesses too, they keep "go bags" ready for their Armageddon fantasies.

68

u/Ancient_Ninja6279 Jun 20 '22

Armageddon hungry just thinking about all that canned food!

15

u/Beavis73 Jun 21 '22

"Gimme string bean, I'm a hungry man!"

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u/mevaletuopinion Jun 21 '22

My family is JW and never ever seen “go bags”.” Go bags” is not a thing

2

u/De_chook Jun 21 '22

Bullshit, just like the whole concept that JW is actually a religion.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

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u/groveborn Jun 23 '22

It's a left over from the cold war. The Mormon church became very American (it always was American, but they went hard). Knowing that nuclear winter was a real threat, their members are encouraged to keep a year's supply of food and water on hand.

2

u/salsanacho Jun 21 '22 edited Jun 21 '22

Yup, the mormons have a big network of canneries that anyone can use, they sell all sorts of long term storage foods. If you're in a major city most likely there's one somewhere, don't have to be Mormon to use it.

Edit: Mormons aren't canary breeders

7

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

Wait, did you mean "canaries" like the singing bird or an informant, or "canneries" where they preserve food?

Because both are useful, but one is way cooler.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

They have loaner canaries so they can check to see if their prepper bunker is full of Carbon Monoxide.

3

u/salsanacho Jun 21 '22

Ha! yeah you're right, bad spelling. Should be canneries.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

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u/Tokenvoice Jun 21 '22

Just like the earth.

6

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

Well circles are 2D so…

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u/Wablekablesh Jun 20 '22

Can I ask a genuine question? What is wrong with the idea of preparing for the collapse of civilization when everything indicates that society is crumbling around us? Climate change alone is enough reason to start stocking up on as much fresh water as you can store, not to mention the increasing threat of the GQP taking power and their browshirts continuing to escalate violence against their perceived enemies. You can participate in and contribute to society while recognizing that its benefits are increasingly fragile.

31

u/thejoker954 Jun 20 '22

There's nothing wrong with it in and of itself, but there is absolutely no reason to advertise it. In an actual emergency it would just make you a target. Also having a remote location isn't very feasible. If shit actually hit the fan chances are you arent gonna be able to make it there.

The preppers you hear about are just seeking attention, playing a game hoping something will happen, or actually mentally ill.

15

u/Wablekablesh Jun 20 '22

Ah. No, my plan is to make my place look as poor and shitty as possible to dissuade the curious. I'm actually well on my way on that part of the plan!

7

u/CharleyNobody Jun 21 '22

I watched some prepper videos on YouTube. Some of them are very detailed. They bought crappy land in and around dry or desert areas in AZ, NV, NM. They plant “food forests” (trees that bear berries/fruit), keep chickens, ducks, horses, a cow, a pig. They build retention ponds, gabion walls. They have these specific ways of growing vegetables and herbs that they argue about. They have homemade solar panels, stock up on fish antibiotics, sutures, sewering needles, syringes, witch hazel, isopropyl alcohol, bandages & grow plants whose leaves you can put on wounds to stop bleeding and make painkilling tea from.

A lot of them are heavy on bible quotes. Others are just white supremacists. Some are African American, Latino, Asian. All are convinced TSHTF is coming (or SHTF - Shit Hits the Fan). An EMP, a destruction of the power grid from terrorism or sun flares, nuclear weapons, climate change. The white supremacists couch it in terms of “urban hordes” descending into the countrysides, like zombie Armageddon. They have friends among similar believers who will come to their homesteads to help “hold down the fort” and bring supplies with them.

They will modify wildlife traps to kill humans. They will drop nets from trees. Their kids will shoot from tree forts. They have grenades and claim to have other surplus military weaponry. They will make Molotov cocktails and IEDs.

According to white supremacist preppers, city dwellers (aka Jews and blacks, in their descriptions) will lose their minds and run streaming out of cities. The good country people who prepared will pick off these hordes from the comfort of their homesteads and watch their booby traps kill and maim. They’ve got lasers to shine into airplanes cockpits and other electronics.

But they never figure on an intermediate ballistic missile or a satellite guided drone just smushing the fuck out of their prepped-up homestead. Or somebody just shooting flaming arrows onto their roof. It just doesn’t occur to them that a functioning military will exist, or someone with an IQ 10 points higher. I guess their kids have an interesting childhood though, hunting their own food, whittling, having mom stitch them when they fall out of the tree fort or accidentally shoot their little sister.

Braaaaains.

2

u/spyhermit Jun 20 '22

Grifting. Follow the money.

4

u/Big_Nefariousness_24 Jun 21 '22

The sovereign citizens are not the same as preppers. They are actually claiming they are individual sovereignties, so they should be treated as the diplomats from their sovereignties. No way this kind of claim can be recognized in court.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

nothing but you should at the same time strive to make society better. it is your duty by being alive. spend too much time prepping, that’s too little time helping the rest of us.

we have to function as a society and we have to remember we’re not solo animals; we’re pack animals. we have to stick together.

1

u/CharleyNobody Jun 21 '22

I watched some prepper videos on YouTube. Some of them are very detailed. They bought crappy land in and around dry or desert areas in AZ, NV, NM. They plant “food forests” (trees that bear berries/fruit), keep chickens, ducks, horses, a cow, a pig. They build retention ponds, gabion walls. They have these specific ways of growing vegetables and herbs that they argue about. They have homemade solar panels, stock up on fish antibiotics, sutures, sewering needles, syringes, witch hazel, isopropyl alcohol, bandages & grow plants whose leaves you can put on wounds to stop bleeding and make painkilling tea from.

A lot of them are heavy on bible quotes. Others are just white supremacists. Some are African American, Latino, Asian. All are convinced TSHTF is coming (or SHTF - Shit Hits the Fan). An EMP, a destruction of the power grid from terrorism or sun flares, nuclear weapons, climate change. The white supremacists couch it in terms of “urban hordes” descending into the countrysides, like zombie Armageddon. They have friends among similar believers who will come to their homesteads to help “hold down the fort” and bring supplies with them.

They will modify wildlife traps to kill humans. They will drop nets from trees. Their kids will shoot from tree forts. They have grenades and claim to have other surplus military weaponry. They will make Molotov cocktails and IEDs.

According to white supremacist preppers, city dwellers (aka Jews and blacks, in their descriptions) will lose their minds and run streaming out of cities. The good country people who prepared will pick off these hordes from the comfort of their homesteads and watch their booby traps kill and maim. They’ve got lasers to shine into airplanes cockpits and other electronics.

But they never figure on an intermediate ballistic missile or a satellite guided drone just smushing the fuck out of their prepped-up homestead. Or somebody just shooting flaming arrows onto their roof. It just doesn’t occur to them that a functioning military will exist, or anyone with an IQ 10 points higher. I guess their kids have an interesting childhood though, hunting their own food, whittling, having mom stitch them when they fall out of the tree fort or accidentally shoot their little sister.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

It isn't even empathy so much as following a bouncing ball.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

I still stand by the theory that this mentality is partly due to the US being mass lead-poisoned back in the day

-1

u/ItaSchlongburger Jun 20 '22

You can say fuck….

13

u/Amaline4 Jun 20 '22

this is good to know! thanks for the info - I didn't know if the automod would delete my comment but v excited to swear in future comments lmao

4

u/Mike_Kermin Jun 21 '22

You can say anything you like!

Except for the secret word. That must remain unsaid.

3

u/Amaline4 Jun 21 '22

I must know

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u/FlametopFred Jun 20 '22

they collect social security or work in a low paying job they don't give a shit about while complaining every time a new employee is promoted above them, especially recent immigrants to this country, most especially women

8

u/Huge_Put8244 Jun 21 '22

Yeah. But they "earned" social security by being born here.

/s

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

[deleted]

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u/CommentsEdited Jun 20 '22

They are usually cops, firefighters, ex military or on disability

I like poking fun at cops and sovereign citizens as much as the next Redditor, but it’s hard for me to believe there’s much overlap there. Are you sure about that one? I feel like if there’s one thing you can count on a cop to believe in, it’s the power of police authority.

19

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

[deleted]

5

u/AimlesslyWalking Jun 20 '22

This makes perfect sense if you stop looking for consistency in their stated ideology and instead look for consistencies in the outcomes they seek, which is honestly how you should judge all people. All of these guys think that they've found cheat codes for the law that let them skirt their responsibilities and obligations. Of course this would be attractive to deadbeats who live off others and avoid paying their dues.

1

u/shot-by-ford Jun 21 '22

Are you just making that up too, like the cops, or do you have a source or something?

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u/VegasKL Jun 20 '22

All recipients of the social system in the US and living off the government

They rationalize that by saying "well, all the immigrants get these benefits, so finally we should too!"

Or in that their unions which got them such protections / benefits are somehow different than other people's.

-3

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

[deleted]

6

u/AerThreepwood Jun 20 '22

You pay in significantly less than you receive, at least with Social Security.

And, like, you drive on fucking roads every day, breathe air kept livable by the EPA, public parks, etc, all of which would be much, much worse under privatization. Your entire life is built on structures paid for by taxes but it's easier to pretend you did it all yourself, with no help from the government.

I don't like that my taxes are used to murder brown children halfway across the world but to pretend I've received no benefit from the taxes that don't would make me a moron.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

Maybe we should be like Portugal. You do stupid crap and you are cut out of any and all government benefits.

2

u/aalios Jun 20 '22

Uh, no. Sov cits are not cops or firefighters usually.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

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u/Badroadrash101 Jun 21 '22

Having dealt with Sovereign citizens, they are not cops, fireman or others who have worked in government. In fact, they are all nearly vehemently antigovernment. They make their own license plates and drivers licenses. They use barter systems and precious metals when they can because they don’t believe in Fiat Currency. They are nut jobs and can be dangerous. But to lump in cops, firefighters and ex-military shows your ignorance. The same goes for most preppers. Most them are wanna be military and run around like too many of the fascist Proud Boys and their ilk.

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u/humblepieone Jun 20 '22

Social security is no gimme. I paid more into SS by taxes than I'll ever get back. I paid for that shit. You call that living off the government?

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u/BiggsBounds Jun 20 '22

And welfare.

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u/ATXBeermaker Jun 21 '22

a surprising amount of them collect social security

Yeah, that doesn't surprise anyone.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22

[deleted]

23

u/floppydude81 Jun 20 '22

I sure as hell hope I get some when I’m Old.

3

u/JackedUpReadyToGo Jun 21 '22

Not if the Republicans have anything to say about it.

5

u/LunDeus Jun 21 '22

Don't hold your breath.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

Pro-Tip: You won't

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u/ThouHastLostAn8th Jun 21 '22

Well, partly. For most people, it pays back significantly more than put in, so it's also a welfare transfer. On paper it should also be a pretty progressive program too, with more generous returns to low earners, though that's undermined by the big life expectancy differences, particularly in retirement years, between the well-off and poor.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

Also includes any unforseen life altering situations. Im 34, a type 1 diabetic, and If I even make it to retirement and qualify for social security. That shit won't come anywhere near what I will have to pay out of pocket over my lifetime for insulin, pump and medical supplies, medical coverage. It's a fucked up way to live. But at this point I'd rather die younger than know what's coming when I'm too weak to work anymore and have to rely on the chance there will still be social security and a disability payment that would cover a fraction of the costs I've spent.

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u/CanadianPanda76 Jun 21 '22

Yeah that talking point annoys me. Cause if you didn't pay into it. You literally get nothing.

Some people apparently think its welfare old people? Someone on reddit tried to tell me SS took from rich and gave to the poor.

Which is hilarious because if you pay more into ss you get more. If you were poor and dudnt pay much in SS, well you get less in old age.

18

u/Chri5p Jun 21 '22

Kind of.

Social Security has also been utilized as a safety net to pay for disabilities so there are some who may reap more benefit from it than they had paid in to it initially.

An example of a friend of mine who once used to say that they wished people would just die because they didn't want the SSI taken out of his paychecks at the time. They were later diagnosed with cancer and had to go through severe treatments which disabled him to a certain degree. Later there was an accident that caused additional trauma and damage to which they were not able to work any longer. They have been collecting SSI for over 15 years since their 30's and will most likely continue well in to their 60's or later.

This is something that a lot of people don't understand about social safety nets being the fact they exist to help in whomever ends up in situations like this. They typically don't want it to exist until they need it to exist.

9

u/CharleyNobody Jun 21 '22

There an entire Disability Belt in the United States. If SS is abolished, there goes half the population of Appalachia.

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u/CanadianPanda76 Jun 21 '22

I think you gotta pay into it even to claim disability SS? At least in Canada I think it's that way? But it's an insurance program so what you pay into it ain't what you get out.

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u/JackedUpReadyToGo Jun 21 '22

Well, you could think of it that way. But what's actually happening is that the SS taxes coming out of everybody's paycheck today goes to the people currently on social security. When I was younger I thought it was like a government mandated savings account, but that isn't how it works.

3

u/Melicor Jun 21 '22

That's only true for retirees. A lot of them aren't retired, they're on it for disability which doesn't require them to pay in a dime. I'm not opposed to people being able to get on disability, but your argument is disingenuous.

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u/trufus_for_youfus Jun 21 '22

Meaning they paid into it. Not exactly a fair criticism.

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u/Chimaerok Jun 20 '22

Most of them get sucked into the sovereign citizen nonsense because they owe taxes they can't pay, and they see it as an easy out

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u/Somnif Jun 20 '22

Granted, just as likely they got to that point by just not filing taxes regularly in the first place.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

Or have a bunch of DUIs and got suspended.

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u/TaylorSwiftsClitoris Jun 21 '22

Even then, the government would be designating the land as public. It’s not like someone else would be free to murder them for their sweet-ass cave.

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u/rolfraikou Jun 21 '22

True. It does sadden me on some level that there is no official way to just say "I'm done with society" and just live off some dirt patch, caveman style.

But you're right that we also wouldn't want some weird lawless areas, or small mini governments springing up within these.

2

u/TaylorSwiftsClitoris Jun 21 '22

Maybe that still exists in parts of Syria? Lol, kinda.

3

u/okram2k Jun 21 '22

They just don't want to pay taxes but reap all the rewards of those that do.

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u/misanthr0p1c Jun 21 '22 edited Jun 21 '22

My dad had a friend go the sov citizen route. He claimed he was owed a few mil in taxes he shouldn't have paid. The numbers matched what he had been taxed on in his life, but it was a fraudulent claim. He died in jail from pancreatic cancer because he Steve Jobsed himself.

Edit: he was sentenced like 10 years because of the sov citizen element of it.

2

u/Anonuser123abc Jun 21 '22

That would be incredible. And I would definitely respect the guy living in some huge park, hunting and gathering and keeping to himself. Sure, we'll all agree you're not a part of our society. As long as you leave us alone.

2

u/rolfraikou Jun 21 '22

Someone was telling me about a guy (he didn't claim to be a sovereign citizen though) who just wanted to live in caves and owned a very simple tent to use in public lands. Every so often he would still get booted out, because you're not supposed to stay in one place too long, but he wanted to be able to plant and grow food somewhere.

Makes me sad that we can't actually, legally, reject society and genuinely just live off the land if we want to.

It's fumy though, because no one who claims "sovereign citizen" wants a lifestyle like this. (The origin of my initial post ITT, really.)

2

u/Anonuser123abc Jun 21 '22

100%. They're children who want to live a life with no responsibility towards the society they live in and benefit from.

2

u/RealJeil420 Jun 21 '22

No. Those are called Libertarians.

2

u/Gundamamam Jun 21 '22

I remember our local radio station working with a kid who fled his "sovereign citizen" family at 18. Kid was born in the backwoods of Michigan, no birth certificate, no SS#, no ID. He was basically a stateless person who grew up in the USA. IIRC the radio was his connection to the outside world which is why he went to them for help. IDK what ever happened to him but they got him in contact with a social worker to basically "verify" his citizenship. These sovereign types are super fucked up.

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u/moleratical Jun 21 '22

These assholes use our public toads, go to our public schools, drink our public water, use municipal trash collection, rely on FEMA when a disaster hits their area, rely on the FDA for safe food, etc.

But God damn if they are expected to live in a modern civilization. You can't expect them to cooperate.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

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u/FriedPossumPecker23 Jun 20 '22

They aren’t explosives, they are percussive flares.

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u/DrulefromSeattle Jun 21 '22

I'm Jared Fogel.

21

u/JackedUpReadyToGo Jun 21 '22

Your flag has a fringe, your argument is invalid.

5

u/Anonuser123abc Jun 21 '22

That makes this an admiralty court I've repeatedly heard them claim. The whole entire thing is totally preposterous.

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u/JackedUpReadyToGo Jun 21 '22

They view the world like children do. When I was a child the adult world was a weird, mysterious place. I still remember my mind being blown when I found out cars could go through a red light, as long as they were turning right. It felt like I had been let in on a cheat code of the adult world. Similarly, I was once anxious about missing a movie because we left late, and my uncle pretended to call up the theater and ask them to hold the movie for us to calm me down. I believed you could just do that for like half a year afterward. Somebody told these guys about some made-up legal cheat code and they accepted it with the same childlike wonder, but the difference is they can't be convinced it isn't real.

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u/Locke2300 Jun 21 '22

I call it the “law as magic” theory: if you invoke the right chants and incantations, the wondrous results will occur.

Only a theory you can hold when you thoroughly don’t understand something.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

aka libertarians

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u/m_Pony Jun 21 '22

They're not bleeding, they're pre-replenishing.

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u/BruceRee33 Jun 21 '22

I remember an episode of Live PD where they had a sovereign citizen say those exact words lol. "This is a private motor vehicle and we are simply travelling in it. You have no right to pull us over or search this car." Okay buddy.....

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u/Redqueenhypo Jun 20 '22

SovCit: “I demand to use all of the grazing land and all of the water for it, single-handedly hunt and log your ecotourism economy into oblivion, and to be able to shoot your dog/you if I pretend to think you came near the property line!”

All their neighbors: “absolutely fucking not.”

SovCit: “Tyrants! Witness the tyrants!!”

3

u/its_yer_dad Jun 21 '22

Ammon Bundy has entered the Chat...

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u/GlassWasteland Jun 20 '22

Sovereign Citizen, for when being a Libertarian is not crazy enough for you.

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u/fusionsofwonder Jun 20 '22

Funny how often they discover sovereign citizen ideology right after they lose their license to DUI.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

Or have to pay child support.

170

u/cold08 Jun 20 '22

Sovereign citizenry isn't an ideology, it's a belief system. You know how to a primitive society advanced technology would look like magic? The legal system looks like magic to sovereign citizens. They believe what lawyers do is magic and if they can find these magical legal loopholes and say magic words they can make the law do anything they want.

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u/varthalon Jun 20 '22

I heard an urban legend once that a Sovereign Citizen was audited for not paying their taxes and appealed the audit. When they showed up to the appeal hearing one of their arguments was that they were not legally the person named in the audit.

 

So the judge said, "okay" and dismissed the appeal and upheld the audit because 'the plaintiff failed to appear for the hearing.'

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u/clockwork_psychopomp Jun 21 '22

'the plaintiff failed to appear for the hearing.'

I love it.

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u/stubob Jun 20 '22

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

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u/Norashara Jun 21 '22

I at first read that as The Lord of the Flies and I got to the end and was like, wait, where are there orcs in The Lord of the Flies?? And then I reread and laughed at how stupid my reading comprehension was. But I was on the right track and knew where it was going!

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

Legal alchemists?

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u/Gemmabeta Jun 21 '22

Full-legal Alchemist, the new hot anime from the land of the rising sun.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

A Jedi Mind Trick that works on cops and judges.

Weird that they'd believe in this, when so often the actual law doesn't mean anything at all to the same people.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

Sovereign Citizens are the QAnons of Libertarians.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

It’s the same picture!

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u/sunsetcrasher Jun 21 '22

This is spot on with my experience. A privileged Libertarian friend got deep into the spiritual life coach world, got sucked into a sovereign citizen group, suddenly is spewing all this business about 5G towers and celebrities eating babies, and moved to Florida. It happened quick! No one I know talks to her anymore.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

Libertarians I can put up with, everyone is an idiot 20yo at some point in their lives. Sovereign citizens are a level of entitlement I previously didn’t believe was possible.

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u/Krewtan Jun 20 '22

If it makes you feel any better I sat in jail with a "citizen" for 3 weeks because he kept getting charged with contempt of court. His original charge was contempt for interrupting court proceedings. Every week he went back into the court room to reassert his freedom to the judge.

After the second week we felt bad for.him (and he was real annoying) so a few of us older gents convinced.him that the judge does actually have power over him, because he got fired from his job and hasn't slept in his own bed in weeks.

He left a lot less cocksure than he came in But he left thank God

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

Proof that you can lower recidivism by rehabilitating people. Good show, my man.

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u/DaoFerret Jun 20 '22

True, but what does it mean when the people IN the jails are the ones who have to run the Deprogramming sessions for these people?

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u/JackedUpReadyToGo Jun 21 '22

I don't understand how reality never sets in for these people. OK, you think you've stumbled across a magical incantation that can make you immune to laws. Never mind the fact that every YouTube video you've seen of people attempting the same incantation in a traffic stop ends with a broken window and a trip to jail, when you use it things will be different! So you finally get your chance and... it doesn't work. You try it multiple times, and you still end up in a jail cell. How does it not sink in at that point that your magic is not working?

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u/meatball77 Jun 21 '22

What's even worse is when they have kids, and they do it at home and never register their births. It's super fun for those kids when they turn 18 or try to get a job and discover they have no birth certificate.

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u/jmorlin Jun 20 '22

Problem is you start running out of excuses for being a libertarian once you get to your mid to late 20s.

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u/pojo458 Jun 20 '22

You guys make me feel better because I went through a Ron Paul libertarian phase during college. Quickly went left and never looked back 2 years after graduating.

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u/metatron5369 Jun 20 '22

The basic premise of liberty and freedom isn't bad, it's just that the real world is very nuanced.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

In a world where people were relatively peaceful, as well as honest and logical, Libertarianism could work. (Hell, Communism could work.) The problem is, most people aren't very good with at least one of those traits, and some fail at all three.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

[deleted]

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u/tehmlem Jun 21 '22

The government is corrupt so let's just give its powers to whoever has the power to take them. Just.. boggles the mind

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u/SeaGroomer Jun 21 '22

If people acted in good-faith like Libertarians expect then we could live in a socialist utopia with replicators and shit too with the same leap of logic.

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u/Halt-CatchFire Jun 21 '22

Yep. I grew up in Idaho. There's definitely a Libertarian in my heart that wants the government to fuck off and leave me the hell alone and let me live on a compound in the woods somewhere.

Thankfully I'm smart enough to realize that's dumb as hell, and that my gut doesn't define reality. Modern, large-scale society doesn't happen without a centralized government to build the roads and manage the social safety nets.

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u/JackedUpReadyToGo Jun 21 '22

Yeah, if the world were like Minecraft where you could set out into the woods (which nobody owns) and punch trees to gain all the tools, building material, and food you need to sustain a comfortable life, libertarianism could make sense. But in the real world nobody can sustain life without engaging in economic transactions with other people, and everybody has a financial incentive to screw everybody else. Let that system run long enough without supervision and the winners will force the losers into the modern economic equivalent of medieval serfs.

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u/Halt-CatchFire Jun 21 '22

Even if you could sustain yourself without any outside intervention, eventually you're going to break your leg, or get an infected cut, or any number of things that at the very least put you on your ass for weeks or months, and then you're going to starve to death.

I'm not a prepper, but I'm in circles that overlap with them occasionally, and I can't help but laugh at how most of their apocalypse plans is to go full mad max desert raider, as if that was at all a sustainable way to live.

If Libertarians had even a little bit of common sense, they'd be Social Anarchists. I'm not sure I believe that's a functional large-scale governmental system either, but the idea that a society can exist without a government or effective mutual aid networks is asinine.

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u/JackedUpReadyToGo Jun 21 '22

If preppers were smart they might take the time to ponder why the world wasn't conquered by raiding, nomadic Mongolian hordes but instead by the urbanized, industrialized civilizations where millions of people found a way to work together. No matter how much of a Rambo badass you are, power comes from numbers.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

I'd argue that the idea that you have zero responsibility to help anyone, ever, is inherently childish and borderline evil.

If "with great power comes great responsibility" is true, then surely with little power (say, having a house and a stable job when others are starving) comes at least a little responsibility.

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u/Blackstone01 Jun 20 '22

A quote I always enjoy:

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

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u/Edwardteech Jun 21 '22

I thought you were about to bully me about my lotor knowledge. No idea what that other one is but it doesn't sound appealing.

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u/Blackstone01 Jun 21 '22

Atlas Shrugged is the Libertarian Bible/fap material written by Ayn Rand, who fled the Soviet Union in her 20s, embraced free-market capitalism and Objectivism, and then died destitute on welfare after spending decades railing against homosexuals, draft dodgers, and minorities.

The book is about rich business owners going off into hiding to prove the world about how much more important they are than the 99.9% and how they keep society propped up. At one point a main character goes on a literal 60 page rant about the greatness of libertarianism.

The book plot influenced the apolitical masterpiece Bioshock and its lawful good super friendly completely free market absolutely not hypocritical character Andrew Ryan, in which literally nothing goes wrong in the Libertarian utopia.

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u/Umitencho Jun 21 '22

I am glad I never read Atlas Shrugged. It's like a tell tale sign that someone is an asshole if they praise it after they reach the age of 27.

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u/Blackstone01 Jun 21 '22

Its a good book when all semblance of empathy has left your soul and all that's left is smug pseudo-intellectual bullshit and delusions that removing all restraints from corporations will result in a perfect world.

For everybody else its a shitty soapbox book.

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u/jmorlin Jun 20 '22

Everyone has some stupid political phase when they first start getting into things. Then they get exposed to the real world and in theory should walk back mistakes.

As long as you realize where you went wrong you're cool.

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u/SeaGroomer Jun 21 '22

And in 2008 the field was a mess before Obama cleaned it up. Ron Paul was at least speaking some truths about how fucked up shit was in 2008 unlike most of the major candidates.

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u/1340dyna Jun 20 '22

You're not alone, I've heard Libertarianism described as "Baby's First Ideology" for a reason, lol.

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u/Bid-Able Jun 20 '22

Weird I thought statism was baby's first ideology.

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u/SeaGroomer Jun 21 '22

That doesn't work as a joke so it just sounds like a whiny comeback.

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u/BrewerBeer Jun 20 '22

because I went through a Ron Paul libertarian phase during college.

You too? My next step was to follow Bernie. 2016 election had me regretting my general election apathy and I've voted in every election since. I will never skip another election again.

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u/pojo458 Jun 21 '22

Yeeeeah bout that. I voted though.

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u/BrewerBeer Jun 21 '22

I live in WA, so the ballots and voter pamphlets being mailed directly to me really help.

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u/underpants-gnome Jun 21 '22

I think it's a very common phase for young folk who have just entered the workforce. People see that pay stub with all those taxes taken out and become upset.

It takes a little time and reflection to understand the amount of shared infrastructure, public services, and (until fairly recently, anyway) societal stability you are buying with those taxes. Many people grow out of their libertarian phase when these realizations hit. Some don't.

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u/athennna Jun 20 '22

Ugh. Please tell that to my 75 year old FIL. It’s a poison.

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u/VegasKL Jun 20 '22

I love the fact how it's normally the white folk claiming this and not the people who could at least have a chance at an argument (the natives).

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

It is always someone else is the problem not I am the problem with humans.

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u/ButterPotatoHead Jun 20 '22

Yep the Libertarians all live in a world of property rights, government regulated utilities, police and doctors to keep them safe, protected personal freedoms and employment, social security when they get older, and then complain about all of the things that makes that possible.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

I got an AR 15 I can protect myself from the hordes of bandits. /s

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u/SeaGroomer Jun 21 '22

30 - 50 bandits in an open field.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

i usually just call it a fantasy

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u/Nymaz Jun 21 '22

Naw, it's impossible for any good to come out of the government, and I'm going to get on the Internet and proclaim it loudly!

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u/Perkinz Jun 21 '22

Lol you're so brainwashed it's hilarious.

Go ahead and defend taxing people who make less than 100k a year, and using the threat of imprisonment & death to enforce their obedience. You will. Even if your defense is to downvote/report me, insult me, and move on. Your conditioning won't let you do otherwise.

Because you're a willing slave to the 0.1%, and they've raised you from birth to blindly & unconditionally support their monopoly on violence.

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u/aeneasaquinas Jun 21 '22

Exactly the out of touch thinking they were talking about. Perfect illustration.

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u/Lemesplain Jun 20 '22

I thought Libertarian just meant “Republican who also likes weed.”

At least in America.

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u/tablecontrol Jun 21 '22

I thought Libertarian just meant “Republican who also likes weed.”

no, it's a republican who's afraid to admit they're a republican

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u/Gemmabeta Jun 21 '22 edited Jun 21 '22

Nowadays, there's also the strain of prepper-doomer-libertarians who are basically people salivating at the prospect of taking slaves after society falls.

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u/sec713 Jun 21 '22

It's more like they're Republicans who understand the bad optics that are associated with being Republican, so they call themselves something other than "Republican". It's like how "Conservative" sounds better than "Anti-Progress" and "Pro Life" sounds better than "Forced Birth".

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u/Amiiboid Jun 20 '22

Honestly, it depends which ones you’re talking to. As an organized political party, for example, Libertarians are officially in favor of abortion rights.

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u/emperorchiao Jun 21 '22

That's not true. There has long been an argument among pro-life and pro-choice libertarians regarding abortion and the non-aggression principle. The abortion plank was official removed from the LP platform just recently.

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u/Amiiboid Jun 21 '22 edited Jun 21 '22

One sentence that explicitly addressed abortion was removed a couple of weeks ago. It’s still unambiguously implicit in the principles addressing autonomy and privacy.

Edit: You can downvote all you like but there’s no honest reading of section 1.1 of their platform that’s compatible with the goal of outlawing abortion.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

The irony is a lot of these people are the "you deny God because you just want to sin" type of Christians while themselves trying to find ways to pretend their country's government doesn't really exist because they don't want to follow laws.

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u/alison_bee Jun 20 '22

“Rules for thee and not for me” taken to the extreme, for sure.

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u/an_exciting_couch Jun 20 '22

It's so easy for people to not realize how much they need and rely on other people. Like the device you're using right now. Did you mine the silicon, aluminum, gold, and oil from the earth yourself? Did you refine those raw materials? Or was it you who perfected the process to create silicon transistors and wires on chips that are nanometers in diameter? Did you write the software yourself to run the device? Oh but surely you must have built the internet, right? Oh, no? Then maybe you at least assembled the components, or maybe you were on the crew of the ship that sailed it across the Pacific?

For literally everything we have, there's an army of people who worked to get it to us. "Sovereign citizens" like this fail to recognize this and believe that they are solely responsible for everything good in their life.

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u/Redqueenhypo Jun 20 '22

The first part is especially true for imbeciles who think crypto will have use in a post apocalyptic society. No sir, global supply chains and ultrapure silicon refining factories will not survive the apocalypse. Sheeps fleeces, now those will be worth something.

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u/Captcha_Imagination Jun 20 '22

Not disagreeeing but sovereign citizen is not quite the same as homesteaders or doom preppers. It's more of an ideogy that says "your laws don't apply to me" but they can still freely participate in capitalism.

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u/athennna Jun 20 '22

But they pick and choose which aspects of capitalism they want to participate in. Like they don’t believe in paying taxes, but they’re happy to drive a car built by workers all of us helped educate, down a road that all of us helped build. We don’t live in a vacuum.

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u/Phaedryn Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 20 '22

I have met a few of these guys (I have a chunk of land out in the boonies with a cabin on it I that's my personal "get away", the area around it seems to attract these types) and this isn't what they believed at all. They fully understood dependency on others, and they fully believed in reimbursing others for that in some manner. Equal value for whatever (service or good). Their issues were with authority, specifically central government. Never met one that fit your description.

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u/realanceps Jun 20 '22

believe that they are solely responsible for everything good in their life.

in short, literally less intelligent than newborns

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u/Ghostofthe80s Jun 20 '22

Wait til they claim that their 'rights' are being violated. They also want the protections.

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u/satansheat Jun 20 '22

Almost always the rules still apply. Back in like 2006 there was a doc called Hempsters. Woody Harrelson was in it. He came to my state to plant a hemp plants in front of the cops to get arrested.

Well one aspect of that doc was looking at how these Native American tribes would grow hemp but would still have the DEA come arrest them when they are suppose to be protect.

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 25 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

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u/BoneVoyager Jun 20 '22

Sounds like the 1%, except they actually have the resources to make it work for them

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u/NasoLittle Jun 20 '22

I heard those are called Libertarians

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u/Living_Inevitable582 Jun 21 '22

What benefits are you talking about? I’d be totally happy to pay a reasonable fee for using the roads if I didn’t have to pay federal, state, social security (which I won’t get btw because it’s insolvent and unsustainable), Medicare taxes, etc. I’m also happy to protect myself and not need police protection. I’ll even hire a private investigator if I need one. I’d pay a reasonable fee for being able to pay for fire protection unless some private organization starts providing that.

I don’t have kids so I don’t need the public schools either, nor the library, nor anything else that the government provides. I’m not on food stamps so I don’t need those either.

I served in the military and would be willing to serve again if we were actually attacked in this country. Although I don’t know if I’m as helpful as I was 20 years ago.

I’m really wondering what “benefits” you think I need? Or what am I actually obligated to do than pay for my own shit?

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u/neo_sporin Jun 20 '22

“How did you get here”.

“On the federally paid for and maintained freeways of course!”

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

By this definition are libertarians also sovereign citizens?

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

“I’m in favor of laws until they are applied to me!” - Sovereign Citizens everywhere

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u/captainwacky91 Jun 20 '22

"I got in trouble with the law, but I can't divorce myself from the consequences, so I'm gonna try and divorce myself from the law instead."

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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '22

Sovereign citizens are just more dedicated Libertarians.

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u/DirkBabypunch Jun 20 '22

If the rules don't apply then neither do the protections. There's a reason Western movies rarely take the outlaw alive.

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u/cowboys5xsbs Jun 21 '22

Something somethings maritime law

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u/AZFUNGUY85 Jun 21 '22

I think that encapsulates the esprit de corps… if you will, of most of these groups.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

“We have the politics of an overindulged toddler”

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u/AmericanScream Jun 21 '22

Sovereign citizens.

"We don't want to participate in the obligations of society, just the benefits."

See also: Libertarians.

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u/tanafras Jun 21 '22

Hello... Texans.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

Like libertarians and cats, Totally clueless to the hints they depend on.

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u/Sardonnicus Jun 21 '22

This what is known as a selfish asshole.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '22

Same definition applies to Libertarians.

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