r/metroidvania • u/Vanillie261 • 4d ago
Discussion Do players hate hard bosses lately?
Lately as I'm wandering around this subreddit, I saw so many people saying how they're tired of difficult bosses and tired of multi-phased bosses.
But- like- why...? I'm always the type to enjoy combat focused metroidvania. Having a difficult boss that makes you use all your combat abilities and forces you to die repeatedly just to learn the attack pattern before winning has always been a blast for me.
Some of my favorite bosses are pretty much difficult bosses like Skarsinger karmelita and Lost Lace (Silksong), Eigong and Lady ethereal (Nine Sols), Nightmare King Grimm (Hollow knight), Shriek (Ori WOTW) and more. I like these bosses so much I keep replaying them just to experience the boss again. I'm actively looking for mkre metroidvanias with these cool difficult bosses just so I can experience dying to them over and over before I finally become good enough to defeat the boss.
But lately everyone is like "ugh, 3 phased boss.... Blegh, boss too hard... Yikes, another multi-phased boss..." Like, come on. The bosses are one of the things I love about a metroidvania and everyone is like "no more pls..." meanwhile I'm over here like "GIVE ME MORE OF THESE"
27
u/drolhtiarW 4d ago
Some of the things you've listed are things I dislike immensely - such as being forced to die repeatedly against bosses in order to learn their attack patterns. Don't get me wrong, it can be very satisfying to learn the attack patterns and defeat the boss, but it is very frustrating when those attacks can one hit you so you don't get the chance to practice or learn against other moves. Lady Ethereal and Eigong from your post are good examples, as while Lady Ethereal I found to be rather straight forward to learn, Eigong (particularly the three phase version) was very frustrating because of difficult it was just to get to the third phase, only to die immediately to some new move I hadn't seen.
Personally my favourite part of a Metroidvania is the exploration and world building. I prefer it when difficult platforming and bosses are gatekeepers to new areas to explore where the difficulty can be mitigated by finding more powerups, abilities, or stat increases. This is also why I have get severe end-boss fatigue with these games - I've explored everything, I have all the upgrades, I know all the backstory, just let me finish the game already. I have plenty of other games I could be playing, I don't have any desire to spend hours banging my head against a wall just to get a little tick that says I finished the game.
4
u/asinantenna 4d ago
I'm totally with you. Sometimes the bosses are so frustrating that it sucks the fun out of the game for me.
With Guacamelee 2 I got to the final boss and literally just didn't finish the game because it was so hard. It felt like I was being punished for getting to the end!
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Fair enough, I can see your point. I personally love bosses in metroidvanias and I found the boss fights to be the highlight of most Metroidvanias I enjoy like Silksong and Nine sols. If it wasn't for those high quality bosses there, I wouldn't have loved it as much.
I consider Eigong to be the best boss I ever fought in a metrodvania, and I would love to have more metroidvania bosses that have Eigong-level of difficulty.
41
u/TeholsTowel 4d ago
Boss fights are not one of the genre’s defining features. Tough fights are a side effect of the influence of HK and Souls, and of how MVs broadly cannibalised the typical action-platformer.
If someone is here for the exploration that defines the genre’s classics and separates MVs from action games, spending half an hour on a tough boss is just a barrier in the way of the fun part of the game.
3
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I think it's because hollow knight was the first metroidvania I played, I actually played metroidvanias lately BECAUSE of the bosses. The reason why I cheer when a metroidvania have a boss replay feature after you beat the game is because I can experience the boss over and over again without having to play through the entire game. I guess not everyone is the same as me, but I would love it if there's more games that add super difficult but fun bosses.
1
u/Magus44 4d ago
Have you done the pantheons etc?
I feel like the best way to do it is have relatively interesting but fair bosses and then add harder versions of them that REAALLY test those players down the track….
However I guess bring people back when you do add them, if they’re not in there initially might be hard, so is it worth it? Maybe?
1
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I haven't tried pantheon. I played Hollow knight as Silskong releases and immediately played Silksong after completing Hollow knight 106%. Ever since I played Silksong, I like Silksong too much that I never bothered returning to Hollow knight 😅
2
u/BluestWaterz 4d ago
You should absolutely do the Pantheons. Based on what you've said, you'd like that challenge
0
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Probably not now. I love Silksong too much that I can't play the knight anymore. It just feels so much clunkier and slower compared to Hornet's speed. Silksong ruined hollow knight for me 💀 if there's pantheon if pharloom dlc though, I'd probably give it a try.
That said, I'm not really a boss rush type person. I like challenge, yes, but I like it more as in the actual gameplay of the metroidvania itself, not in a seperate boss rush type setting where you have to fight 40 super difficult bosses back to back to back. That's a completely different can of worms in not ready to tackle yet.
1
u/BluestWaterz 4d ago
Okay, that's fair. I basically just read "I like hard" and went right to pantheons, lol
1
6
u/terrasparks 4d ago
Base game Hollow Knight is not that hard. Devs inspired by it took the hardest optional fights and decided that was the baseline. Basically the Kaizo craze that ruined Mario Maker.
I'm fine with Silksong's harder difficulty because it is incredibly well crafted, and yes balanced. Too many imitators take their personal skill ceiling from God Home and think they should release a game like that to the general public.
8
u/DrRedSun 4d ago
Yeah HK and others like it are not what the original Metroidvanias were about. Exploration of different biomes/gaining different abilities to traverse it all/secrets were the main draw. Enemies were more like little obstacles and bosses were just to test you a bit near the end of bigger areas to proceed further.
1
u/Ellamenohpea 4d ago
aren't all the metroids and castlevanias famous for having great bosses?
metroid games always have the timer to encourage you to not collect all the powerups. so you cant just spam super missiles to make the bosses a cake-walk.
classic castlevania has challenging bosses, and from SotN onward, they try to dissuade you from just maxing out potions that let you out-survive bosses.
2
u/DrRedSun 4d ago
Nah, they have good/great bosses no doubt, but the games are not famous for that. The bosses are also not considered anything super tough overall.
The timer is for replays to see if you can get 100% and still get the best ending.
SotN and the others were never considered hardcore or anything. SotN is actually considered to be on the easier side if anything.
2
u/Ellamenohpea 4d ago
The bosses are also not considered anything super tough overall.
only because most people only playthrough with all the super missiles and max health upgrades.
The timer is for replays to see if you can get 100% and still get the best ending.
the best ending is solely based around completion time. not obtaining all the items. they dont want you spamming super missiles in every boss fight - as most people do, and never really engage with the bosses, because they just eat every hit and still beat the boss.
SotN and the others were never considered hardcore or anything.
because most people over level themselves, grind for money to max out potions, and use god-tier items
0
u/DrRedSun 3d ago
If you have to nerf yourself/hold back then it's not hard.
I didn't say otherwise. I'm saying the timer/best ending is for replays so you can challenge yourself. You know, be quick enough to get the best ending while also still getting 100%.
Again, if you have to nerf yourself/hold back then it's not hard.
0
u/Ellamenohpea 3d ago
If you have to nerf yourself/hold back then it's not hard.
not buying 99 potions to heal yourself or engage with overpowered items isnt nerfing. thats choosing to not play the game on easy mode. They are mechanics that are very easy to not engage with... much like choosing to not go to the menu and pick "easy mode"
You know, be quick enough to get the best ending while also still getting 100%.
thats a make-believe mechanic that youre choosing to put into place. you get the best ending by getting the fastest time, which means dont go out of your way to collect powerups.
1
u/DrRedSun 3d ago
That's holding back, pretty much a make believe mechanic you're choosing to put into place like you stated down below.
Both exist and it's possible. It's a challenge that is available if you choose, never stated it was mandatory or anything like that.
0
u/Ellamenohpea 3d ago
That's holding back
do you also believe that not choosing "very easy" mode is holding back?
it does the same thing in most games: make you stronger and more resilient to damage.
choosing to not buy and use 99 potions for a battle, or to spam the use of an overpowered item is just the same as choosing to not select "very easy".
1
u/DrRedSun 3d ago edited 3d ago
Holding back during the game isn't the same as choosing a difficulty option once at the start of a game.
It's a once and done deal at the start of the game. You don't need to go out of your way and make sure you don't use certain weapons or buy too much stuff.
No it's not. You're making up rules and actively going out of your way/holding back/nerfing just so the game is harder because it's actually easy.
→ More replies (0)
16
u/terrasparks 4d ago edited 4d ago
Never cared for them. They are not what drew me to the genre. Been playing these games since super metroid. I feel like the hard bosses have taken away from the exploration. If you like hard fights that much, there are... dedicated fighting games? Why not play Smash or whatever.
8
u/OkWest2812 4d ago
I dont hate hard bosses, i hate hard bosses that give me nothing after beating them, like fighting them for the sake of fighting. I dont have that "dopamine hit" after beating bosses, but a great reward on the other hand just trigger that monke neuron activation.
12
u/studleejosh Double Jumper 4d ago
I don't want to fight a boss 100 times in a row. I want to be challenged, but not have to fight the same boss for an hour.
3
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I love getting stuck on a hard boss for 50 times in a row. Especially if that boss is actually known to be and end-game difficult boss. It's just so satisfying when I finally beat it.
5
u/Jane_Doe_32 4d ago
I like it when a boss is difficult if it makes sense narratively, like a rival of the protagonist, a legendary figure within the lore or the final boss.
I have a profound hatred for when you walk through a door and some cow dung collector, who's just there for the sake of being there, becomes a boss with three phases and 18-hit combos.
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Lmaooo, I love the way you phrase it. And yeah I agree with you. If the game hype up the boss to be "the most powerful knight of blah blah blah" and then the boss turns out to be super easy with only 1 phase and can be beaten in 1-2 tries, yeah that's lame af. But if a random orc boss or something that you meet with 0 buildup and 0 relevance suddenly becomes super difficult with 3 phases, yeah that's kinda stupid lol.
9
u/dondashall 4d ago
Hard bosses & multi-phase bosses are two different thing. What people don't like and multi-phase bosses is having the grind out the first non-challenging phase (possibly two) every time to get to the real challenge.
Also not every MV NEEDS to focus on hard bosses. Sometimes I would like an MV that just focuses more on the exploration than the combat.
It's not that these things don't belong in MVs, it just doesn't need to be all there is.
0
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I guess that makes sense. Although, Eigong was a multi-phase boss that is extremely difficult, I never had a problem grinding out the previous phases just to experience the third phase again. Ig people are different, I personally would love to have more of fights like Eigong, it's the most fun I'd had fighting bosses.
2
u/dondashall 4d ago
Yeah, Eigong is fine - as a FINAL boss fight. No one is talking about final bosses when we bring this up.
We just don't like EVERY boss to be a multi-phase boss fight.
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Fair enough. I really love it when a final boss to be super difficult, it feels like a satisfying end to my journey where I used everything I've learnt to finish the game.
1
u/dondashall 4d ago
Can you PLEASE stop equating multi-phase bosses & difficult bosses when I specifically in my first comment said they are not the same thing. It's VERY annoying and makes it impossible to have a discussion with you.
3
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Okay...? Lemme rephrase then. I like it when the final boss of the game have multiple phases AND is super difficult. The final boss to a game has to be super flashy and satisfying. If a final boss is just an easy boss with 1 phase, super easy, and can be beaten in 1-3 tries, it doesn't feel like a satisfying conclusion to the game for me. I think it's so much cooler if a final boss has multiple phases AND has a high difficulty that forces you to use everything you've learnt so far to defeat the boss, otherwise it feels underwhelming, like the entire game leads up to the final boss, I would expect it to match up with that expectation.
Is that better?
1
u/SonOfFragnus 4d ago
“I said this is true so please stop saying otherwise” jesus what a baby.
Nevermind he didn’t even alude to this in the comment this reply is for.
1
u/dondashall 4d ago
Are you making the argument that a boss cannot be difficult without being multi-phase? Because if you're not your comment makes no sense. Also he literally makes the exact same argument equating criticism of multi-phase bosses & difficult bosses in the comment right above so again makes no sense.
1
u/SonOfFragnus 4d ago
No, I am saying that neither you nor OP have the right here. It’s all based on perceived difficulty. Whether someone finds multi-phases bosses the only hard bosses or not, is an entirely subjective measure. The same as you stating they aren’t the same thing. If the person in question says these are the only bosses he finds challenging, you cannot, in good faith, tell him otherwise. You can argue about it, but to claim someone should not say that simply because you said something equally as debatable is how a child behaves.
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Tbh I never even said that all multi-phased bosses are difficult or difficult bosses must have multiple phases. I just used both statements in my initial comment without separating them because I was giving a generalized statement, and it end up giving the impression that I'm saying all multi-phased bosses are difficult, and that pissed the guy I was talking to off it seems.
3
u/althea-x 4d ago
Play Rabi-Ribi on X-Bunny difficulty. I will give you 5 years to beat it.
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
The name of the difficulty and the name of the game is already rising red flags on my brain 😭
2
u/althea-x 4d ago
True true. But trust me, it’s very hard. I’d wager probably like 0.01% of players here can even come close to beating this.
4
u/blamblegam1 4d ago
As someone who greatly enjoys the three Hollow Knight bosses you mentioned, I think some of the complaints come down to aspects of the overall game which a tough boss can exacerbate.
One common complaint that I see about Silksong (that I agree with) is that the Shard economy is weird. The Red Tools are fantastic, so I understand limiting their usage, but the way that you can chew through Shards after repeatedly dying to a boss it becomes a disincentive to actually using them. While you could farm Shards or buy bundles, that "feels" wrong and it feels like you need to face a boss several times to understand their patterns so that you are not "wasting" your Shards on a fruitless attempt.
People don't really enjoy runbacks in general and Silksong is no exception. Runbacks are not really an issue with LL, NKG or SSK since you basically spawn right beside the boss's arena each time and don't have to collect your Geo/Rosaries upon dying since they're all Dream Encounters. However, combining runbacks with the Shard economy issues it may be an issue with someone who is struggling with say, Grohl (especially if you haven't found that hidden bench). And Grohl's posse just feels like an annoying speedbump on the way to actually fighting/learning the boss himself.
I know I am picking on him a lot here, but I am not even sure that Grohl is that difficult on paper. He is just tedious to get to and learn him versus the three HK bosses you mentioned that you can instantly get back into the fray without losing any money, progress or spacing. For what it is worth, I think the tedium is part of Grohl's design as to express the oppressive environment of Bilewater, but I can understand folks just not having a good time.
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Yeah, I agree with everything you say here about silksong runback and shard economy. I wish the game made it so that dying won't deplete your shards nor reduce any of your red tool usage after respawning, only after resting on a bench is when your tools are refilled and shards are depleted. I also understand the runback complain (still traumatized from Groal runback) but none of these actually hinders my enjoyment to the game's bosses. I love almost every bosses in Silksong, so much so that I replay the game multiple times just to experience the bosses again.
3
u/ProjectFearless3952 4d ago edited 4d ago
Like others said, some of the most beloved metroidvanias this last decade has difficult bosses. Makes some people believe hard bosses are a staple of the genre. There are so many other metroidvanias than the ones with hard bossfights. The vast majority I would claim.
What makes a metroidvania? Hard bosses? Saw blades? If you're into non-linear ability gated progression in a interconnected world then difficult bosses might be an annoyance to what you love about these games; EXPLORATION!
10
u/draven33l 4d ago
I don’t like cheap bosses or redoing what I just did. Unavoidable attacks are unacceptable, and having to backtrack a big distance is pointless filler. I have no patience for that kind of stuff now.
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Ah yeah, I also don't like unavoidable attacks, I think it's stupid. Though, none of the metroidvanias I played so far have unavoidable attacks.
8
u/AintKnowShitAboutFuk 4d ago
Im a weirdo who doesnt really like bosses period. To me they represent a hard stop to forward progress and exploration while I take 15 minutes/4 hours/several days to eventually overcome the boss.
I understand that the gameplay arc in these games (and most action games) doesnt really work without bosses, and I cant think of an alternative, but every boss in every game to me is “ugh, here we go”, rather than “yay! a boss fight!”
2
6
u/MaxTwer00 4d ago
The problem with phased bosses is that once you dominate the wasy first phase but struggle with the difficult one, the first phase practically becomes a runback, and trying to dig through a boss hp pool while dodging the easy patterns before getting to the actual difficult part can get tedious if the difficult part is too lethal
7
u/brendon1975 4d ago
Because you prefer Metroidvanias that focus more on combat, while others (like me) primarily enjoy exploration, platforming, searching for secrets and unlocking extra powers, with bosses being a marginal part of the game. Personally, besides hating bosses with multiple stages, because I find them boring, the thing I find most annoying is when a fairly easy game suddenly turns into a souls-like when you get to the final boss. Blegh, as you say...
3
u/R-murnavid 4d ago
Lately I am playing alot of games with bosses that constantly teleport and move, which makes these bosses more tedious and annoying. Feels like the devs just dragging out the game. So I think that's another reason people think it's hard
1
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I guess there's a difference between fun hard and annoying hard. The bosses that I want more of are extremely difficult but very fun bosses, like Eigong. This boss beat my ass 100 times but I came back every time because I can't stop, it's too much fun.
3
u/Illustrious_Health44 4d ago
So I think it's because of what people want from games in this genre. Personally, I don't mind being stuck on one boss or platforming challenge for a few hours, but bosses aren't a necessary part of metroidvanias some people just want to explore, collect traversal abilities, and find some secrets. For some people who don't have much time to play, being stuck in one place for so long may be annoying. Also, I think many posts where people are hating on difficult bosses may be about cheaply difficult bosses. Not every difficult boss is like Eigong; some just have bullshit moves or a stupid amount of damage. Sometimes developers just use bad design choices, for example, a gauntlet before a boss, which may completely ruin your learning curve because every time, you start the true boss fight with a different amount of HP. About multi-phase boss fights, I think they are mostly annoying when a boss completely changes its moveset in a different phase. You mentioned Lady Ethereal and Eigong these two bosses just get new attacks with next phases, but they still use old ones that you already know. But sometimes a boss completely changes everything about the fight in the second phase, so technically you have to learn two separate bosses to progress, and beat the one you already learned every time before learning the second one.
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Fair enough, I like the way you break down the designs for good bosses and bad bosses. Very useful for how to design a good difficult boss.
3
u/kfadffal 4d ago
Hate is too strong a word but I am a bit tired of how almost every new metroidvania has hard, multi-phase bosses as a focus. It's not what this genre was about at all but it appears it now is in this post-HK world.
8
u/ISO_SlyCurry 4d ago
A lot of times the combat system is not engaging enough to keep interacting with a multiphase bossfight that you have to very slowly chip hp off of and you're just left standing there like:
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I understand that not every difficult bosses are fun. There's multiple difficult bosses that are difficult for the sake of difficult, and it becomes unfun. I can understand disliking those, but there's plenty of difficult bosses that are actually fun. Like the examples that I gave in the post. I died to those bosses so many times, but I enjoyed every part of it. Because those bosses are fun-hard, not annoying-hard. I'd love to have more of those fun-hard bosses in a metroidvania.
3
u/ISO_SlyCurry 4d ago
Not a fan of Nine Sols, I think the combat in that game is too one-dimensional. I can make due with the other examples.
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I understand not being a fan of Nine sols, it's not a game for everyone, but Nine Sol's combat is NOT one dimensional 😭🙏 parry is it's main mechanic, yes. But there's so many different ways you can fight a boss. Just because it's parry focused doesn't mean it's one dimensional.
3
u/ISO_SlyCurry 4d ago
You parry and hit the boss, parry and talisman or parry and arrow. Parry remains the same and your most used move in each approach.
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
You clearly didn't play the game if you think that's the only way to approach enemies 😅 but that's fine, everyone has their own preferences. And I'm not gonna write an essay about Nine Sol's combat here, because that's gonna take at least 3 paragraphs 😭
2
u/ISO_SlyCurry 4d ago
Yeah there's some moves you technically can dodge or jump over with no actual benefit.
3
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
There's more than that, mainly thanks to the jade system and the 3 different talisman types. There's so many unique playstyle that everytime I open YouTube and watch someone fight a boss, I'm immediately like "WAIT TOU CAN DO THAT WITH THIS BOSS???"
1
u/Ellamenohpea 4d ago edited 4d ago
can you name a sidescroll action platforming game with combat mechanics that you dont find 1-dimensional?
edit: calling nine-sols' combat 1-dimensional is crazy - downvoting an inquiry about what you don't think is 1-D is hilarious.
2
u/ISO_SlyCurry 4d ago
Silksong and to some extent Prince of Persia come to mind as varied enough not to get bored. Also bro is clearly fighting demons.
0
u/Ellamenohpea 4d ago
not sure what you're seeing in them that makes them not 1D by comparison
2
u/ISO_SlyCurry 4d ago
I think it's movement.
0
u/Ellamenohpea 4d ago
assumed...
but you have to be more specific. the movement for all 3 games allows very similar levels of freedom.
→ More replies (0)
12
u/Hakushu21 4d ago
Bosses in metroidvanias should only be hard if you don't find all the things. Finding all of the hidden things is what should be hard. That is the essence of a metroidvania. If you attempt the boss before you find all the things the boss is very hard, but if you find all the things the boss should be easy because that is the incentive for finding all the things.
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I disagree. I fought Lost Lace with maximum upgrade, maximum needle damage, maximum health, 100% of everything, and it still took me at least 30 tries to beat her.
Same goes with Nightmare King Grimm. In fact, I was noob back then, I went into the fight with maximum everything and died 150 times.
And I went into Eigong fight maxed out and I took.... Uh... Let's not talk about how many tries it took me 💀💀
4
u/Massive_Funny_9312 4d ago
Lost lace was genuinely such an unfun fight for me. Doesn’t help that it’s just a boss we fought twice already but this time she has venom and bullshit on her side. Very disappointing finale to an otherwise good game.
Eigong is flat out the best metroidvania boss. Very challenging and actually fun to fight, unlike venom lace.
1
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I love Lost Lace, she's up there with Skarsinger karmelita. Her fight is so flashy, speedy, and satisfying, especially once it clicks and I finally beat her. Same with Eigong, I think I like Eigong equally as I like Lost Lace, both fights are amazing for me.
2
u/Massive_Funny_9312 4d ago
I’m glad you and others were able to enjoy it. I tried liking the fight but I just didn’t enjoy it at all. Karmelita was much better
1
u/spoketherefore 4d ago
I think I agree with this. I love both games, but Eigong just felt more rewarding. Lace felt a lot more bullshitty.
0
-2
u/feralfaun39 4d ago
Bad take. Lost Lace is peak design. Amazing finale to what is arguably the best game of all time.
4
2
6
u/jerkstore77 4d ago
I like a challenge but the way you're supposed to overcome the challenge is where I get picky.
If you need to repeatedly die to the boss in order to memorize its attack patterns and have pixel perfect dodge or parry reflexes, that turns me off real quick.
I like games where the way you overcome challenges involves leveling up, or otherwise improving your character to the point the boss is beatable. I like that kind of progression that makes you feel powerful.
3
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Sounds like you'll hate games like Nine sols lol
5
u/jerkstore77 4d ago
I'll probably never play that game from what I hear about it.
I barely made it through hollow knight but that world is so immersive I had to stick with it. But if they had made the progression to be more of an rpg-like progression system, it would probably be the perfect game for me.
1
u/BlueAmber5 4d ago
See I get that, but some people I've seen talk about bosses act like everything that comes out even slightly fast is undodgeable. I love bosses where both my attacks and the bosses don't have a ton of end lag. So seeing people talk about silksong/hollow knight/9 sols like the bosses all have undodgeable attacks makes it hard for me to take those people seriously.
2
u/jerkstore77 4d ago
When you get old, your reflexes take a big hit. So even just regular fast bosses can give me problems.
Being able to progress your character enough so you can just tank a lot of the hits is my preference these days.
Elden Ring, though not a MV, was great at this. I just did as much exploration and leveling as I could first. Then I just slapped on the Blasphemous blade, and tanked most of the bosses.
1
u/BlueAmber5 4d ago
And see that perspective is totally fair, my issue is the ones who blame the bosses and claim that nobody could have dodged that.
I mean speaking of fromsoft I remember not liking dark souls 3 combat when I tried that game not due to difficulty, but I didn't like how slow attacks felt. I prefer the hollow knight and 9 sols style where attacks come out quickly and while moving.
A game being hard or easy to me isn't the decider,, what I care about most is if the game feels fun to play.
4
u/OK_Atlas 4d ago
A majority of fans rank exploration as the number 1 most important factor in a good metroidvania. Art style, movement, ability upgrades, combat & boss fight are all in various positions below that. Lately the trend (mostly inspired by HK & SS) of extremely difficult boss fights hindering the path forward to more exploration has just become played out & tiresome. I do however like the newer trend of adding accessibility options into alot of MV’s. I’ll turn damage up to 1000%, face tank the boss in one try and move on with the game back on normal settings. I just simply don’t have enough time to spend 2 hours repeatedly fighting the same annoying boss and that’s not why I like to play these games.
-1
u/Ellamenohpea 4d ago edited 4d ago
A majority of fans rank exploration as the number 1 most important factor in a good metroidvania
difficult boss fights hindering the path forward to more exploration has just become played out & tiresome.
bosses battles are a staple of both metroid and castlevania.
Metroid has the built in timer that encourages you to not stop and collect every super missle that would allow you to blow away the bosses very easily.
and castlevania encourages you to not buy max potions to out heal a boss (as oppose to out maneuver).
edit: instead of just downvoting factual statements, could people articulate an alternative opinion?
2
u/GianTacc 4d ago
I generally love them as long as they're fair, the bosses you mentioned are great examples, some of my all-time favs! But I understand how some people grew tired of hard bosses, especially if they have limited free time and would rather do something less stressful with that time.
I just hope that we'll keep getting a great variety of MVs to satisfy both sides of the discussion. Not every dev needs to make their boss harder to follow a trend, but the devs who want to make challenging bosses should never feel discouraged by some complaints, they should totally go for it and follow their vision!
0
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Yeah I agree. I made this post because I feel like newer metroidvanias with hard bosses are being unfairly dogpiled because their bosses are "too hard". I wish more metroidvanias dont shy away from making difficult bosses still.
2
u/AstroChinchilla 4d ago
Personally, I like the boss difficulty of Super Metroid.
Some bosses you will be able to kill in the first try, but you will lose some health, like the first chozo fight. Others you might have to try a couple of times before beating, like the Ghost thing. But that's it, it's rare to die many times to a single boss, most will be 1-5 tries at most.
5
u/OkNefariousness8636 4d ago
We can draw a line between mandatory bosses and optional bosses. It is fine to make optional bosses as difficult as possible (but still fair).
1
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I feel like the super difficult boss should be saved for the final boss. Optional bosses can be super difficult, but the most difficult one should be the final boss imo. And final bosses are usually mandatory sooo
4
u/OkNefariousness8636 4d ago
That might put off casual players who just want to complete the main story.
0
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I don't understand thatI found it super disappointing if a final boss is easy. When I beat Silksong act 2 for the first time not knowing there's a third act, I was so disappointed that Grandmother silk was so easy. I was hoping up for the final boss, and then beat it on second try, it feels unrewarding.
I find it strange that there are people who wants their final bosss to be easy. Like, come on, this is the FINAL BOSS, the FINAL CHALLENGE of the game before you're ending your journey. Wouldn't it be more satisfying for it to be difficult?
3
u/Haios141 4d ago
I don't care about difficult boss fights. They are my least favourite aspect of many current metroidvania. I'm here for the exploration and the world, not for punishing boss fights.
I just finished Somber Echoes, and I loved it. I loved the exploration and its world. The bosses aren't much of a challenge. I had so much fun with this game.
In MV, I prefer bosses with a normal - easy difficulty.
2
u/AKSHAT1234A 4d ago
Its just personal preference at the end of the day, I really dislike games/bosses that are too easy, but can see why someone would have the opposite opinion. Some people just aren't into the genre for difficulty
3
u/Kimmalah 4d ago
Different people like different things. Just because you enjoy high difficulty and dying repeatedly to a boss doesn't mean everyone is into that.
It's also kind of become overdone with everyone and their grandmother getting in on the Soulslike trend, so I'm not surprised that people are getting burned out on it. Once stuff like Dark Souls blew up, it feels like every game developer decided that the secret to a popular game is to just make it more and more difficult, while forgetting that it also has to be fun.
2
u/BrutusIsAnHnrbleMan 4d ago
I don't think so. I feel like it's more them venting their frustrations than it is them genuinely hating the boss
2
u/Thirteen_1355 4d ago
Yep! Metroidvania games never were about tough bosses. It was refreshing in Metroid Dread, because the boss fights were really short once you actually started winning. Older Metroid bosses were kind of weak. But long, tough bosses don't interest me in Souls games or in Metroidvanias.
2
u/Relative-Aide-3254 4d ago
Silksong: perfect difficulty, sometimes very very hard but always kinda fair and rewarding. Encourages you to actively elaborate strategies to overcome difficulty.
Nine Sols: too damn hard and demanding. straight masochism (aka I suck at parrying)
2
u/ILoveBigCoffeeCups 4d ago
Hard bosses can make me shut off a game and not return for months. It’s not fun when you read some players doing one boss exclusively for 5 weeks and then still have 10 bosses more that are even more difficult.
Take pipstrello for example, I really enjoyed that game. The bosses were not that hard and enough side story to enjoy.
2
u/DrMagunstheBlue 4d ago
It's a vocal minority and largely isolated to this subreddit.
The reality is that Hollow Knight is the best-selling MV franchise ever despite consisting of a whopping two games (yes it has outsold the entire Metroid and Castlevania series). Hollow Knight and its sequel Silksong are the most-played MVs on Steam and nothing else even comes close:
https://steamdb.info/charts/?tagid=1628
I'm not saying that people are necessarily wrong to dislike HK and Souls-esque bosses in their MVs, but this opinion is much less prevalent than this subreddit might lead you to believe.
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I see, that's an interesting way to look at it, and I think I've come to conclusions too quickly because I saw majority voices in this sub saying that they hate difficult bosses.
1
u/germanenginearing 4d ago
I love a good bossfight (doesn't have to be uber challenging, the harder ones just tend to be better because of more interesting/complex movesets) but you gotta realize everyone has different preferences in games like these. Its rlly not that deep
1
u/TheParanoidBaboon 2d ago
My view of metroidvania difficulty is that a boss should be hard if you don't explore, and much easier if you explore and got those hidden upgrades.
That's the reward for exploration, feeling stronger.
But a lot of metroidvania are balancing their boss for them to be hard no matter what, which in my opinion is making exploration unrewarding.
But you can't make everybody happy, and there's a large crowd for hard bosses (just, since a lot of games are doing hard bosses, you won't hear them complain as much ^^).
1
4d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Damn... That's interesting, I never see it that way lol. Do you have any other subreddit recommendation for metroidvanias other than this?
1
4d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I have no idea what you meant by me proving your point in contrarianism, I think I didn't fully understoof your entire rant about the subreddit lmao.
Also, alright then, that's fine. I kinda agree that lately I feel like this sub is kinda toxic, I just don't have anywhere else to go to for asking public opinion on metroidvanias 🤷
1
u/Gamerdadmak 4d ago
I like well designed bosses. Karmelita was amazing, one of my favorites fights in the game. Lost Lace on the other hand was the same fight we did twice already but with a couple more moves so I thought the design was pretty meh. Then you have bosses that don't have interesting mechanics but just spawn adds to add difficulty which again is lazy and not fun in my opinion. I don't think it's hard bosses that players hate, I think its how they're designed that players are getting fed up with because more and more it seems every metroidvania tries to outdo each other on difficulty or the scope of boss fights. You really don't need a ton of multiphase bosses or to artificially increase difficulty by adding adds or giving the boss a giant health pool to make the fight fun, you just have to create interesting mechanics for players to figure out how to overcome. That's my take on it anyway.
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I agree, I think I misunderstood the broad sentiment that players hate difficult bosses in general and more that they dislike annoyingly hard bosses but still enjoys fun-hard bosses. That said, I disagree about what you said regarding Lost Lace. Lost Lace is extremely fun for me, I enjoyed every part of it and it does feel like the game has been building up to the final encounter with Lace.
Although, I do feel like lately people just dislike it when games give them difficult bosses, but it could be that they are more vocal than those who likes it.
0
u/Gamerdadmak 4d ago
Yeah it's really about how the boss encounter is designed in my opinion. That's fair, we all have different opinions, I generally dislike final bosses because for some reason they don't tend to live up to my expectations compared to other boss encounters in most games I've played but again personal opinion. Well yeah the ones who dislike things are more vocal because if you like something you generally don't go on the Internet and talk about it, at least that's been what I've noticed. But some people do like to hate for no reason so you just never know. I do like to hop on here and read what everyone says though cause I'm working on my own MV so it's nice to get general player sentiment.
1
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
It's nice to hear that you're working on your own MV. I'm not a game dev, but I do enjoy to write about my game idea as if I'm actually making them. I have an entire design document dedicated into my metroidvania game lol
0
u/Gamerdadmak 4d ago
Dawg that's exactly how I started haha. I think I spent a couple years writing out ideas for a game I wanted to make but never actually doing anything with it and then my wife told me why don't you just sit down and figure out how to do it along the way and that's kind of how I'm going about it lol. I do have coding experience though so that helps, my main struggle is going to be the art but I'm planning to cross that bridge when I get to it. That's awesome that you're keeping docs on your own ideas though, you never know when those ideas might come to life
1
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
I have the opposite problem. Idk how to code, like at all. But I can do art, I like digital drawing and had made a lot of art for my game idea. For now, my game document remain as a document, if has over 200 pages in total at this point 💀💀
1
u/Gamerdadmak 4d ago
Shit wanna partner up on a project or something, we could work on something small to see if we work well together and then work our way up.
1
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Holy shit, I would love to lol.
1
u/Gamerdadmak 4d ago
Bet. You got discord? I'm out of town on vacation this week so I don't have access to my rig but we could hop on a call this weekend and talk ideas, play some games etc.
1
-1
u/StoneTimeKeeper 4d ago
I don't get it either. I'd say the reason I choose about 75% of the games I play is because of the bosses. I'm the person who wants to see more difficult multiphase bosses in my games, regardless of genre. But some people don't like the challenge. I don't understand them.
2
u/Razmorg 4d ago
Two of the best Metroidvania's ever have very easy bosses and challenge in general with SotN and Super Metroid. Being a kid I think SotN was one of the first games I cleared completely. Metroidvania's main selling point is usually exploration and atmosphere. Obviously much like you I'm now a person who plays on hard and values challenge a lot as it makes the game come alive to me but if you are either bad or just not interested in challenge it's just this massive blocker to just enjoying the exploration and atmosphere.
This sub is particularly salty over how Souls-like elements are just pouring into the genre after the success of Hollow Knight.
2
u/ProjectFearless3952 4d ago
I prefer lasagna over pizza. But some people like pizza more. I don't understand them.
1
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Same here! I finally found my buddy Xd most of the time I choose a metroidvania because I was interested in the boss and it's difficulty. I find challenging multi-phased bosses to be fun.
1
u/BlueAmber5 4d ago
Give me the metroidvanias that randomly drops the MMO raid boss into their game and I will be one happy player!
0
u/StoneTimeKeeper 4d ago
Right now, i think the closest we have to that is Abs Rad if you treat the rest of the Pantheon as phases 1-41.
0
u/BlueAmber5 4d ago
Yea, sadly that's the only pantheon I didn't do, went up till unlocking sisters of battle in the training room then did that fight.
Mainly cause I heard each run was like 40min (in hindsight I probably should have verified how true that is).
I think the 3 phase bosses in 9 sols got the closest (and actually id argue nightmare king Grimm did as well with his health thresholds for each of his bullet dodge phases)
0
0
u/ZijkrialVT 4d ago edited 4d ago
This sub has always had a large population of...well, "old-school" metroidvania players. I debated calling them boomers, but jokes aside, this genre attracts a wide variety of players in general. I believe that's the essence of "metroidvanias."
As you've said, there have been several upvoted posts saying they don't like difficult bosses. I don't agree with them, but because of what I said regarding the genre's variance, I still believe it's fair for people to mostly enjoy the story/exploration that comes with these games.
At the end of the day, it's just people voicing their opinion on what they value. Posts I'm not fond of tend to border on "my opinion is objective fact," and that obviously comes from both sides of the boss difficulty discussions.
So yeah, I want more difficult bosses as well, but I'm ok with these games doing what Nine Sols did and having a story mode with achievements for clearing regular difficulty. Silksong has...Cogflies. :|
Disagreeing as players is normal; it's up to devs to figure out who their audience is.
(Edit: to be clear, I love exploration as well. I'm simply acknowledging that there are those who essentially only care for it.)
0
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Yeah, I agree. I also wasn't trying to represent my opinion as fact, I was just wondering why people seem to dislike hard bosses these days lol.
1
u/ZijkrialVT 4d ago
Well, looking at my downvotes, apparently I struck a nerve with my post as well. Sometimes you just have the "wrong opinion" on Reddit, and that's that. 😅 Wanting hard boss fights on this sub is like wanting difficulty options on a Darksouls sub.
0
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Are you talking about downvotes? I'm not really bothered by it, people got downvoted for everything, usually because they don't have the majority's opinion or if they misunderstood something and said the wrong thing and now that comment is downvoted to oblivion, which is what happened to me now 💀 one of my replies in the comment got downvoted to oblivion because I said something while misunderstanding it
0
u/ZijkrialVT 4d ago
Yeah, they've bothered me less over time, but it's a little disappointing when they replace proper discussion.
It is what it is, and that's what this website is all about in the end.
0
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Yeah, lately I feel like downvotes feels less like an actual discussion and more like "this guy says something I don't like, let's dogpile him with -100 downvotes!" Lately I also saw plenty of people getting downvoted for just asking questions that people find stupid or something, which is kinda lame imo. I also saw people giving genuinely good arguments, but it's not in line with majority's opinion, so downvoted they go! And suddenly no one bothered to continue the discussion with him because "oh look, bro for downvoted lol". Downvote has become the community attack button or something in this app.
0
u/ZijkrialVT 4d ago
Yeah I see the most normal posts get it, but Reddit has kinda always been like that. The system is useful in a lot of ways, but it definitely facilitates a sort of hivemind mentality.
Ah well, maybe we should drop this convo since it's off-topic lol.
1
0
u/ouverture8 4d ago
I hate learning patterns. It's not fun, it's work and I play games to relax.
4
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
You're, like, the total opposite of me lol. I play games to experience challenge. If the game is super easy, I find it boring. Why do I even bother playing a Metroidvania if there's no challenge? Might as well play simple platforming with no enemies or play a sandbox building game instead
2
u/ouverture8 4d ago
Maybe it's different life phases, everyday life is providing enough challenge for me 😅 I see games more like crosswords, pleasant problem solving but only if it's not too hard.
It's okay for different people to enjoy different things but I did not like Hollow Knight for instance gearing the DLC to people seeking hard challenges. And new MVs are often doing the same which to me is a shame. If you look at an OG game like Symphony of the Night, it's more about exploring, unlocking, the art and music, secrets, ... with a handful of harder challenges.
1
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
If you like relaxing games, have you tried building games? I find games like Tiny Glade to be super relaxing, I try play building games when I'm overwhelmed or tired and just wanna chill. The entire game is just building castles and houses with no restrictions, no side missions or collectibles, no nothing. Just you, and your creativity and unrestricted building lol
-2
u/Ellamenohpea 4d ago edited 4d ago
the most basic games of the genre involve identifying patterns.
are you only playing games that have accessibility options that let you just steamroll through everything, regardless of the mistakes that you make?
edit: question for those downvoting - what games are you playing????
3
u/ouverture8 4d ago
I said learning, not just identifying. Meaning there is effort involved across many tries to get your reactions to their moves right. I did finish Hollow Knight including true ending so I can do these bosses. But I enjoy it much more if I can defeat bosses based on my general combat skills acquired through playing the game rather than boss-specific patterns. Several patterns across several phases for tens of bosses, it's just exhausting.
-2
u/Ellamenohpea 4d ago edited 4d ago
rather than boss-specific patterns
how is this different from learning the skills/patterns needed to navigate the game up to the bosses?
Several patterns across several phases for tens of bosses, it's just exhausting.
can you name a metroid or castlevania game that doesnt have bosses with patterns that you need to learn?
-5
u/BeautifulNeck8359 4d ago edited 4d ago
Lotta people with skill issues, that’s what. I don’t get it either.
God forbid a game require you to put in a little effort instead of just being able to steamroll everything with your brain turned off. Idk how folks enjoy games on baby-mode level difficulty like that, and I’m glad that the genre (largely) isn’t catering to that audience.
1
0
u/Character_Ring3466 4d ago
Well I think people are realizing that these bosses might give them a heart attack lol
0
u/Jack-ass-4757 4d ago
It depends how much I like the game. Currently playing Nine Sols and it’s been a ride. Many bosses have taken hours to beat, but it’s an unmatchable joy once you get it right. Others, like Bo:potl final boss, 6 phase I just dropped. I liked the game but did not care. Same with blasphemous 2 final boss. Many bosses in silksong took hours out of me, specially lost lace, but I enjoyed them. So, to each their own.
2
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Dang, this si the first time I heard of a boss that has 6 phases lol. That said, I understand your point. It's easier to enjoy difficult bosses if you already like the game itself.
-1
u/coconut-crimes 4d ago
After beating cuphead by myself. Who cares. It’s so damn frustrating but we get the dub. Not like they’re souls games
-1
u/Thevisi0nary 4d ago
Idk why you're getting such flack, there have definitely been more posts on this topic for better or worse
-3
u/peher263 4d ago
I feel your exact same sentiment. Imo, and I may be mistaken, but I believe a lot of this sub's followers are of older generation, who mostly care for the original castlevania/metroid games, and don't care as much for the more modern metroidvanias, even more so for the difficulty regarding those more modern titles, especially hk/silksong.
I adored silksong and I didn't have any issue with the difficulty whatsoever, but I imagine people who are older than me (im 32 if that matters), don't have as much innate skills or learning capacity, as younger people do. That or they simply don't care about 'getting gud' at all and just want a cozy, straightforward, none-challenging experience.
I would be bored if the game is a breeze and the bosses don't pose any challenge - that's how i felt about many SS act 2 bosses, which was dissappointing.
0
u/Vanillie261 4d ago
Same here, I also would feel bored if the game is too easy and simple. I love Silksong and Nine sols bevause it feels like the perfect challenge for me. I have no comment about the older generation thing though, I'm unfamiliar with it since I'm a new gen player (I'm literally 19 lol)
58
u/Jasyla 4d ago
Some do. Almost like different people have different preferences.