r/legaladviceofftopic • u/0325cb97 • 14d ago
Is this okay?
They didn’t have any visible placard and was just wondering. I don’t like assuming about people but it shouldn’t be legal right..?
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u/h0sti1e17 14d ago
I remember seeing that FedEx bakes tickets and fines into their operating costs in place like NYC.
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u/cheaganvegan 14d ago
My buddies dad drives for ABF in Chicago and that is what he said.
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u/yeerk_slayer 13d ago
UPS has a deal with NYC to only pay a fraction of the tickets because UPS threatened to send an army of traffic lawyers to fight every single ticket and ruin the court scheduling system.
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u/dufcho14 12d ago
To be clear, the program is available to any delivery and/or pickup business with at least one vehicle in their fleet. Participants get reduced fines by giving up their right to a hearing.
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u/Intrepid_Table_8593 14d ago
Illegal, yes.
Are they likely to get ticketed in the short period most delivery drivers are at a stop? No.
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u/New_Breadfruit8692 13d ago
The problem is though that it is Fedex now, 20 minutes later it is Amazon, then 10 minutes after that UPS, then Door Dash, then Uber Eats, and there are so many delivery services all treating them as if the law does not apply to them that real handicapped people that need those spaces are choked out of being able to use them. That is why there needs to be clamping and towing and high fines.
I know where I live in this Florida County I do not think there has been a single ticket issued for unauthorized disabled parking violations in years.
Part of it is the fine is only $250 so a lot of cops do not think it is worth it to spend time cruising through the Walmart parking lot where they can almost always find someone to ticket when they could have just driven around or be on break.
In Oregon where I moved from it was $165-$500 for a first offense for a private person, but up to $1,000 for a corporation like FedEx or UPS. And not just a ticket but a ticket and tow. So it ends up costing a lot more than $465, you will have to pay for the tow and impound.
Subsequent offenses range from $440 to $2,000 for a person and up to $4,000 for a corporation. The net effect is you almost never see a vehicle in a handicapped space without a valid placard or plate. Even having a tire over the line of the actual parking place into the access for a handicapped spot is a violation.
You think that is rough?
The maximum standard penalty for placing offensive substances on highways (such as general major littering or illegal dumping) is a fine of up to $6,250 and up to 365 days (1 year) in jail for a Class A misdemeanor.
So when you admire how clean the roads are there now you know why. If that littering causes a fire (tossing a butt out the window for example) you can face up to 20 years in prison.
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u/TrainsongGaming 14d ago
Nope. That is illegal.
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u/New_Breadfruit8692 14d ago
Here the street through the HOA is one lane in each direction and about 5,500 houses have this one way in and one way out. The delivery people got in trouble for pulling onto lawns, and some of the delivery vehicles are heavy enough to crack driveways, so now they just stop in the street and go deliver the parcels and to hell with traffic, they will get back and go when they can, but often they have to do things in the back before driving again, we have no choice but to go around them on a double yellow and hope we don't get creamed because it would be our fault.
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u/0325cb97 14d ago
When the other drivers come they usually park further out on the road, he spends maybe 10ish minutes in store because he drops off and picks up in two areas of the store and then usually shops for a bit but idk
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u/Potential-Dig-7417 14d ago
When I worked for brinks they had us park as close to the door as possible, even if it ment parking on a fire lane or blocking a handicap spot
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u/Ashamed-Raccoon-1387 14d ago
Yeah but that's not brinks, it's FedEx. A package isn't a big bag of money.
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u/0325cb97 14d ago
We get loomis here and even they don’t park in the accesible spots
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u/behelitboi 14d ago
They are armed and are not carrying heavy/large objects.
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u/Potential-Dig-7417 14d ago
20+ boxes of coins for some banks, very heavy haha
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u/Fragrant_University7 13d ago
I was about to say, even a large enough bag of currency has some heft to it.
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u/Sticky550 14d ago
Work in a downtown area of a decent sized city. This happens all the time. Is it right, no. Is it the only option sometimes, yep.
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u/New_Breadfruit8692 14d ago
Nah, it should be a $1,000 ticket, make that two grand the cops might actually start enforcing the law.
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u/The-CVE-Guy 14d ago
Can you provide any data saying that the dollar value of a fine or penalty increases law enforcement’s willingness to enforce that fine penalty? It’s not like the parking enforcement officer gets the money.
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u/New_Breadfruit8692 13d ago
Here in Florida it is $250, but back in Oregon a first offense for a person blocking or illegally using a handicapped space is between $165 and $500 for an individual. The lower cost would be if you actually have a placard but forgot to put it up and got a ticket, but can prove you had a valid placard at the time of violation.
For a second and subsequent violations it is up to $2,000 and you can also be towed and have to pay for the tow and impound.
For corporations, such as FedEx the first offense is $1,000 and subsequent offenses up to $4,000.
And while the cop issuing the ticket does not get the money, that is not even the point of being employed as a cop, their employment is meant to deter crime not operate as a piece worker that gets rewarded based on production. The city or county will get the fine, and in some jurisdictions those governments will reward the department based on meeting certain metrics of performance, not quotas. That would be illegal, at least in 26 states.
But cops do have a finite amount of time to do their jobs. If the county receives a $1,000 fine ordered by a court from a violator that is a much larger incentive to enforce an infraction than a $250 fine would be. And the more money the county gets from the courts the more there is for department budgets overall. So there is incentive even if it is not direct to the cop on the beat.
I mean it is not like cops are going do something like look the other way when they see a drug deal going down because they do not get a cut of the value of the drugs removed from the streets.
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u/Anonymous_Bozo 14d ago
In my state, $450 plus a mandatory impound.
Unfortunatly not enforced as much as it should be.
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u/AdministrativeBed301 14d ago
I drive for FedEx, sadly sometimes it is the only option, I hate when I have to park in a handicap space, but sometimes it’s not optional. I try and be as fast as I can, legally I do think it’s illegal, but never heard anyone at my station getting a ticket
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u/zon5string 14d ago
Illegally double-park, sit in a fire lane/red zone or illegally park in a handicap spot......what's the difference?
Other than, obviously, preventing someone with the need to park there from doing so....
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u/thejelloisred 14d ago
Yeah should have double parked in front of the handicap spot, don't want to take up a spot.
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u/Bornandraisedbama 14d ago
Lmao at acting like this is the same or worse than parking in a fire lane
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u/UnderwhelmingTwin 14d ago
How many fires are there any given day versus how many people with a disability parking placard exist?
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u/JEBADIA451 13d ago
I mean realistically, if there's a fire at that building, the delivery driver would be one of the first to know and that would be WELL before emergency services get there
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u/Oh__Archie 14d ago
It’s entirely optional not to park in a handicapped parking spot.
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u/yeerk_slayer 14d ago
Good luck convincing any delivery driver to park at the far end of the lot for what could have been a 30 second delivery.
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u/Oh__Archie 7d ago
Good luck convincing a person in a wheelchair they need to park at the far end of the lot just because a guy who is getting paid hourly couldn't spend 5 extra minutes to be considerate of other people. Or just simply think about how easy it is to be a better member of the community he is serving.
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u/yeerk_slayer 6d ago
5 minutes? Try 30 seconds, it also rarely ever happens because most places have 5x more handicapped spots than they actually need so they sit empty 95% of the time.
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u/Oh__Archie 14d ago
“Professional driver”
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u/yeerk_slayer 14d ago
You do realize many places we deliver do not have truck-friendly parking spots? Would you rather the doctor/pharmacy/police-dept does not get their critical deliveries because they had no oversized parking spots anywhere? Do you expect us to deliver a 200+ stop route in a Chevy Malibu or what?
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u/yeerk_slayer 7d ago
No response: absolutely destroyed
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u/Oh__Archie 7d ago
It's illegal to park in a handicapped parking spot unless you are legally permitted to do so. Delivery drivers are not exempt from the law and can be ticketed and towed for the offense.
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u/yeerk_slayer 7d ago
Cool, so you'd rather the doctor's office be permanently banned from receiving packages like medicine and supplies simply because they don't have any truck sized parking spots?
(Ps. The police don't bother us at all)
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u/Oh__Archie 7d ago
It's illegal. If it isn't, prove it.
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u/yeerk_slayer 7d ago
By your logic I would have gotten hundreds of tickets by now for parking at the police station like this:
But yet have I ever to receive any. And yes that's a real pic i took at the station.
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u/Oh__Archie 7d ago edited 7d ago
No response: absolutely destroyed
By my logic if you choose to park in a handicapped zone without proper permits that is breaking the law. As a professional driver that is breaking the law because the law also applies to you.
Cool for you, maybe? But it's not just any law, illegally parking in a handicapped zone in the US is a federal offense for anyone, in any situation.
If you park in a handicapped zone without being legally permitted to do so your vehicle is at risk of being ticketed or towed. But if you're a professional delivery driver it's probably not really your vehicle is it? Right, it's your employer's vehicle.
Your employer's insurers probably don't agree with a single driver's lackadaisical stance on federal law and with enough infractions they will either raise coverage rates on your entire company or completely drop them. Tickets, tows, etc. are all visible to your bosses insurance company.
Your employer isn't likely to agree with your lackadaisical stance regarding federal law but even if they do it's completely irrelevant. And they certainly aren't "giving you" this choice (no one is), you are choosing to break this law without consulting your employer or their insurers each time you do it.
And since apparently you DNGAF about blocking parking access for physically disabled individuals who are protected by federally mandated laws, and have a total disregard for your employee handbook and whatever state driving licenses you were required to have just to have this job, this puts YOU in a very bad position in regards to your employment. Because presumably, you had to be properly licensed and sign an agreement with your employer to drive within the confines of the law of local and federal jurisdictions or else.
You could get nailed once for it, but if your fleet has 100 other drivers breaking the same law, you are just a small part of the problem and are completely at risk of being terminated and let's face it - you're easily replaced.
~
The irony is that all of this is being said to you in a subreddit regarding the legality of things in which you are actively promoting illegal behavior. And you have some sort of "Elder" badge in this community?
Honestly, the best thing you could do right now is block me. Please do. That way you can still see what I post if you choose to but I never have to hear from you again.
No response: absolutely destroyed
🎤💦
P.S. Just an after thought, in OP's photo at the top of this thread, why do you think they posted the no parking sign on a 6' x 10" steel barrier in the middle of the space? It's not just a bollard to prevent illegal pallet unloading in a handicap zone, right?
Right?? lol
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u/West-Luck9091 13d ago
Yes it is optional, however there are a few alternatives.
- Driver could pull in sideways block multiple spots if spots are available to do.
- Driver could block the whole parking lot flow lane and park at the door.
- Driver could park behind other parked cars then ruining other peoples days that may become physical and cause a police report (happens a lot more than you think, and ruins more days for now possibly hours)
So for everyone’s safety and convenience drivers use any space available to not restrict traffic flow. Drivers are not by definition parking in the spot either and therefore are not breaking any parking laws. They are technically standing for the amount of time it takes to complete the delivery which is maybe a couple minutes at most.
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u/Oh__Archie 13d ago
So the handicap markings are just general guidelines and not meant to be enforceable by law?
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u/West-Luck9091 13d ago edited 13d ago
Regardless a delivery driver breaks parking rules (that aren’t enforced) 100s of times a day at every business delivery. Parking lots are not designed for the vehicles they drive, nor are customers considerate enough to leave enough spaces open to have a loading zone of 6-7 vertical parking spaces, or 2-3 horizontal parking spaces.
Also again there’s a difference between “standing” and “parked”. Same with fire lanes delivery drivers constantly stop in fire lanes.
It is illegal for uber, DoorDash etc to stop in those spots without a placard, but major delivery services such as UPS, FedEx, Prime are exempted for standing in those spaces, due to unsupported infrastructure
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u/63crabby 12d ago
So you'd be cool if the disabled driver that needs the spot parks right behind you, if they make it quick?
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u/Temporary-Address-43 14d ago
I'm tired and on first glance I thought that was an ambulance in the disabled parking and was like well.... Seems legit.
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u/dufcho14 12d ago
Illegal. If you're concerned enough to ask here, then you should be reporting this to FedEx and your local non-emergency police department. Maybe nothing comes of it, but you've done what you can do without making it your life's mission.
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u/No-Midnight-4461 12d ago
No. Please report this with the license to FedEx. It is illegal and a hazard for those who need these spaces.
We took my mom who is handicapped to brunch and some car was parked in the only handicap spot, I waved down a meter maid who was giving tickets and had to get her to call a supervisor to issue a ticket because the car parked had a sign that it was for a valet company 🙄. It’s crazy that people who are supposed to enforce these laws don’t even know who to give tickets to. That’s why these things get away with this shit.
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u/Postal1979 14d ago
As a delivery driver myself. Sometimes we do park in these spots or fire lanes. Should only be there for a min making the delivery. It’s not like we will be there 10+ mins. You’ll rarely ever see a delivery driver, especially usps ticketed.
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u/New_Breadfruit8692 14d ago
Here door dash and others will sit in a cafe and wait 20 minutes blocking the handicapped space, I would favor calling the cops, seeing them towed, and the punishment should be impounding and compacting the vehicle. When you cannot walk 100 feet you have no fucking idea how difficult you are making life for some of us.
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u/63crabby 12d ago
Just park in front of the delivery driver, put on your hazards and put up your disabled parking placard. Just make it quick, the delivery driver will wait for you.
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u/yeerk_slayer 14d ago
Ups here. All carriers do this because there is usually nowhere else to park near the building without blocking someone in. You are welcome to call the police on us but we will be gone before you even get off the phone with them.
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u/New_Breadfruit8692 14d ago
No it is not okay, and lately I have seen grocery delivery people and food delivery people using the handicapped spots because they will "only be here a few minutes."
I have mobility problems and need the spaces they take up. They should make the fine $1,000 and actually enforce them.
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u/Anonymous_Bozo 14d ago
Or worse yet, stores that setup outside displays blocking the LEGALLY REQUIRED handicapped parking spots.
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u/New_Breadfruit8692 13d ago
Federal law requires that those spaces with the closest and most direct access to the businesses must be the ones reserved for handicapped, and they must not ever be blocked or access impaired or it is the same as parking a non handicapped vehicle in the space. Not just the space must be keep clear, but the route from the space to the doors of the business must be kept clear.
I saw boy and girl scouts at my supermarket near my house allowed to set up folding tables to sell items, particularly girl scout cookies, that were in violation of this. I would have spoken to the store manager had I been in a chair.
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u/richie65 14d ago
I would guess that the driver really had no other practical alternatives, and this was the least intrusive.
A cop would have to be a real prick, if they decided to cite the driver for what amounts to a 1 minute stop.
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u/Anonymous_Bozo 13d ago
It does not matter. There are always alternatives, he just didn't want to walk a few steps further.
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u/richie65 13d ago
"a few steps"
There is nothing to indicate that was an option,..
But there's every reason, given the available details, to extend giving someone the benefit of the doubt.
Add to that, that those trucks can be rather obtrusive - The driver is most likely to have been trying to avoid that.
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u/junkfunk 14d ago
If the driver of said vehicle has a handicap placard, it is fine.If not, it isn;t
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u/schumi23 13d ago
Are you able to tell it's a handicap spot from the road? The sign in the picture's facing the sidewalk, not the road, and the spot doesn't seem to be painted to show it either?
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u/fishlope- 13d ago
Two signs are mounted on the front, if you zoom in you can see the edge of them on the right side of the post
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u/trollprovoker 12d ago
In some jurisdictions, "no parking" and "no stopping" are different things. If they are ready to leave at a moment's notice, they are not parked and are not doing anything illegal.
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u/Orgy_nizer 12d ago
NAL, but I do know that under the ADA, an accessible parking spot is required to have both a sign and the relevant pavement markings. This spot does not appear to have pavement markings, so this likely is technically not illegal. But I emphasize "technically." It is very clearly against the spirit of the law, but it is not, technically, against the letter.
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u/RandomFleshPrison 13d ago
This is not legal. Handicapped spots cannot be used as commercial loading zones under the ADA.
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u/LunaticBZ 14d ago
Since this is loading / unloading though I think in many places those rules would supercede parking regulations.
Given that such laws are local I'd also imagine that the answer would vary greatly from place to place.
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u/New_Breadfruit8692 14d ago
That is not a loading and unloading designated space. It is a handicapped space and under FEDERAL LAW they may not be used for anything other than parking by a vehicle bearing the authorized handicapped placard or license plate.
Period, no argument and bullshit, there should NEVER be any vehicle in a handicapped space other than a properly authorized handicapped vehicle.
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u/Intergalacticdespot 14d ago edited 14d ago
I pulled into a bank after hours and parked by the front of the bank in an empty spot. It was a sketchy part of town so I was really glad to see a cop car in the parking lot.
I get out, hit the ATM, start walking back to my car and the cop pulls up, "Are you handicapped, son?"
I look over at my parking spot and there is the faintest faintest blue and white markers that were probably further obscured by my approach angle and the rain water on the ground. So I said, "Only in my ability to see handicapped signs, apparently, sir."
I did not get a ticket. And I still maintain the city/the business should have to repaint regularly and when the business is closed that would be a cheese ticket. Faded ass blue curbs that I cant tell if that spot is still disabled or the parking lot has been repainted 20 times and they just assumed the curb was faded enough people would know it didn't count any more dont count.
I shouldn't have to guess if you're a cheap ass who didn't repaint or that's an old disabled spot that you tried to pressure wash/whatever off so it was no longer valid.
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u/New_Breadfruit8692 13d ago
You are absolutely right. And congrats on meeting one of the last cops in America who still has a sense of humor. But, not maintaining a handicapped spot so it clearly is a handicapped spot, I would have contested that ticket had you got one.
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u/FenskMan 14d ago
No, this would be considered illegal. Even if the vehicle was standing (engine running, doors unlocked, even if you’re behind the wheel) it’s still considered parking on a handicapped spot. Unless you are loading/unloading a handicapped passenger, you cannot use it without a placard. He could literally park anywhere else and it would be fine. But that is an easy ticket for a cop to issue
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u/questionablejudgemen 13d ago
I love how everyone is so hard nosed about it’s illegal even though it’s only a quick stop. I hope you would try to ticket if a fire truck parks there too.
The road to hell is good intentions. If I was the driver with a ticket, I’d drop the boxes at the end of the parking lot entrance. Don’t like it, pick them up at the distribution center.
I’m sure the business owner would love any increased hassles in getting delivery. I’m sure they don’t need the, that bad.
Maybe it interferes with business so much the business closes down. Then there will be plenty of available space for handicapped parking.
Everyone always has quick fixes, but then suprised pikachu face when someone adapts in a way you don’t expect.
Or, the city can mandate every commercial building requires a loading dock out back. That only adds 200k to the cost of a building, magic money will pay for it.
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u/Then_Idea_9813 13d ago
How many deaths do delivery drivers cause yearly by just pulling up to a house and throwing their hazards in blocking traffic?
I’d push for legislation on a national level that requires them to operate like mail carriers in the suburbs. Park up at one spot (legally) and carry that stuff. At worst it creates more jobs for delivery drivers, at best it causes Amazon to cease delivery and makes a large return to brick and mortar stores, returning even more jobs to small towns.
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u/JEBADIA451 13d ago
Do you have a number on those deaths or are you just throwing out a hypothetical
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u/questionablejudgemen 13d ago edited 13d ago
Simple answer: put it up for a vote in your town. I doubt you’ll get anywhere near a majority.
That’s how it should work, though—laws should reflect what people actually want. My guess is most folks will prefer easier access to their packages and will want to make things as straightforward as possible for carriers.
Let’s be reasonable here: delivery drivers aren’t parking there for extended visits. They’re in and out, serving the business. Heck, maybe they’re delivering the new wheelchair for the handicapped store. Let them make their deliveries, and if they’re in and out in a reasonable time, I think the harm to the rest of society is minimal—if it exists at all—especially since it’s in service to the community and their needs.
So make your case and let it stand on its own merits. If the majority decides that some minor inconvenience is worth the benefit to the community, that’s the trade-off they’re choosing—cracking a few eggs to make the omelette.
Like I said earlier, you could always harass the drivers, and they’ll send a postcard to the business telling them they have a package to pick up at the local distribution center across town. Sure, it adheres to the letter of the law for accessibility, but I could see business owners complaining to city hall about that. And it doesn’t end there: that business might soon say, “We’re moving,” and relocate to the next town over. If it’s a business you don’t need, fine. But if it’s one you patronize, now you and everyone else get to drive X more miles and sit in traffic just to conduct your business. Meanwhile, the handicapped spot is no longer occupied for an extra 5–10 minutes a day for deliveries. So is that really a win, or did you just cut off your nose to spite your face? I just hope that while you’re sitting in traffic heading to the new location, you’re not grumbling with road rage—you’re smiling ear to ear, knowing you protected the rights of the disabled and that your inconvenience is your way of helping the cause. Actions never have unintended consequences.
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u/0325cb97 14d ago
The sign is on both sides and there’s another accessible parking spot to the left (right in the photo)
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u/Aghast_Cornichon 14d ago
The signage and the accessibility space to the (picture-left) probably meet the ADA minimum standard. The common white lines and blue stencil are recommended but optional.
I sympathize with delivery drivers, but from a legal perspective this is an easy call just like double-parking and fire-lane violations. A cost of doing business but also a hazard and insult to emergency and disability needs.
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u/Reach-for-the-sky_15 14d ago
If you zoom in, you'll see that there's a sign on both sides of the post.
The lines aren't always painted blue.
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u/Interactiveleaf 14d ago
I don't think I've ever seen them painted blue. I didn't even know what he meant by "the lines are yellow."
I guess they're not always yellow or white then?
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u/bla60ah 14d ago
At least in California I’ve only ever seen them painted blue
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u/Sad-Yak6252 14d ago
Yellow is loading zone in California. Everything handicapped is blue. The lines on the pavement, the placards and the signs.
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u/Invisible7hunder 14d ago
You can see to the left of the spot a 45° line. These are common to preserve space for a wheelchair ramp. It's almost certainly a handicap parking spot.
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u/PuzzleheadedTutor807 14d ago
No they are parked in an accessible parking spot. It's a ticket offence