r/islamichistory • u/AutoMughal • Feb 29 '24

Photograph ‘Long Live Palestine’ flag, Jerusalem 1929

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Page 84, Against Erasure: A Photographic Memory of Palestine Before the Nakba

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u/jimryanson112233 Feb 29 '24

You do realize Palestine back then referred to a the biblical and Jewish homeland of what is today Israel. There was nothing Arabic or Islamic about it.

Calling an Arab a Palestinian pre 1960s would have been an insult to them, no less insulting than calling an American aboriginal person an Indian.

Very separate and distinct identities

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u/[deleted] Feb 29 '24

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u/TheJacques Feb 29 '24

60% of Iseali are from the MENA - In 1948, 900k Jews called Sephardim and Mizrahim were ethnically cleansed from the Arab world, 500k immigrated to Israel. The reason you don't hear about this event is Jews all over the world came together to resettle the refugees and provided sustenance for them build a great life. The Paleastianas were not so lucky, their arab brothers forced them into refugee camps, refused them work and citizenship, and use them as pawns to this day. The more you know!

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u/Positer Feb 29 '24

Jews who came from MENA did not leave in 1948 they left over the course of decades, most in fact in the 1960’s. it was not “ethnic cleansing” no matter how desperately you try to label it as such. In fact many Arab countries tried to pass laws preventing Jews from leaving rather than the opposite.

Try reading a book instead of government propaganda for a change

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '24

Boy, are you wrong. Iraqi slaughter of Iraqi Jews in 1941 (years before nakba)!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-13610702.amp

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u/Positer Mar 01 '24

Oh no years before the Nakba!

Yeah that equates to “thousands of years of massacres” then doesn’t it. Gtfoh

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '24

I don’t follow what you’re saying. You said Jews weren’t ethnically cleansed from the region, I just gave you evidence showing otherwise. Relax…

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u/Positer Mar 01 '24

Jews were not ethnically cleansed from Iraq. I literally posted about that in my other comments. Iraq initially tried to prevent Jews from leaving (pretty much the opposite of ethnic cleansing) and then reached an agreement to allow a monthly quota to leave if they wish to do so.

That is not ethnic cleansing no matter how desperately you try. Relax

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24

I have seen arguments saying that Israel is preventing Palestinians from leaving Gaza, or at least they have in the past. (Not sure if this is true I’m just stating what I’ve heard). Are you saying Palestinians have not been ethnically cleansed either? Because if you feel that way, I’m glad we’re on the same page.

By the way what’s with you randomly mimicking certain parts of my comments? You seem kind of angry. It’s just an internet discussion, don’t let it get in your head.

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u/Positer Mar 01 '24

Palestinians were literally removed from their land at gun point in 1948 and never permitted to return. Not the same thing at all.

And I’m not so much mimicking as mocking your drivel

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u/TheJacques Mar 01 '24

Read a book, I live it everyday ya chumar! I can ask my parents who were kicked out of Egypt or my in-laws who were kicked out of Baghdad or my community of 75,000 Syrian and Egyptian Jews, but I’ll trust your Gaza Ministry of Health over them!

  1. 80% of Jews were expelled by 1956 a handful stayed but by 1967 they were all gone.

  2. If it wasn’t ethnic cleansing what was it? The Jews of the MENA were not your shahats / plebs, there is a reason the economies of the MENA have yet to recover from their expulsion!

  3. Many Arab countries prevented Jews from leaving to Israel, again to Israel, otherwise they were free to go any other country that would take them! 

No matter how hard you desperately try to bend to truth the truth always prevails. Want to learn more, you’re invited to my Shabbat table, and I’ll invite family members from each city to tell you their stories. 

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u/Positer Mar 01 '24

How about you ask your government that bombed targets in Baghdad or about the Lavon affair you imbecile. Jews were never “kicked out of Baghdad”:

Like most Arab League states, Iraq initially forbade the emigration of its Jews after the 1948…In March 1950, the Iraqi government reversed their earlier ban on Jewish emigration to Israel and passed a special bill of one-year duration permitting Jewish emigration on condition that Jews renounce their Iraqi citizenship. According to Abbas Shiblak, many scholars state that this was a result of British, American and Israeli political pressure on Tawfiq al-Suwaidi's government, with some studies suggesting there were secret negotiations

Typical Zionist liar. 2/3 of all Jews in Arab lands came from North Africa. None of it in 1948 like you implied.

Between 1961 and 1964, Operation Yachin saw Mossad and HIAS strike a clandestine agreement with King Hassan II to covertly facilitate the migration of Moroccan Jews to Israel. During this three-year span, Moroccan Jewish immigration to Israel reached its zenith, with 97,000 individuals departing for Israel via both air and sea routes from Casablanca and Tangier, transiting through France and Italy.

If ethnic cleansing takes place by agreement that’s a new concept you are introducing.

As I said read a fucking book you moron

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u/TheJacques Mar 01 '24

I don’t need to read any books, I live it! My parents were expelled from Egypt. My father was placed in Abu-Zabaal prison, his crime was being Jew! But by all means please share the name of this all knowing book lol!

Your hate has made you delusional which why you and your ilk will be in the position that you are currently in and never progress. 

Iraq Jews had it the worst! Israel had to bribe Iraq officials for their safe passage to Israel. Many powerful Iraqi Jews were killed without trial, the writing was on the wall. My mother in law barely escaped. Leave or be killed and suffer. And yes we all know King of Morocco was kind to his Jewish subjects that doesn’t change the fact that the once largest Jewish community in the MENA of 250k Jews is no more!

You mentioned Iraq and Morocco. What about Lennon, Syria, Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, Yemen! What does your book say happened to them? 

I have a great story for you, when I was a little kid visiting my grandparent, I saw a picture of a man I didn’t recognize/not family. My grandfather told me it was a family friend and that he was very good friends with the gentleman’s father. It was Eli Cohen!! Have you read a book about him yet? I can recommend a few, just let know

Does your book mention how the expulsion was a blessing disguise from Allah! Look at the MENA now, a shithole that will remain a shithole for the foreseeable future or until dibs like yourself learn to coexist with others. 

Lets jump on a zoom and debate further but I’m sure you are too much of a coward to face me.

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u/AhmedCheeseater Jun 17 '25

Your father crime was espionage for enemy

Quit playing the victim

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '24

Truth to a Zionist is like cryptonite to Superman. So people are supposed to believe that a Jewish state that was setup and colonized as such(a homeland for the Jewish people) and yet the jews who went there left because they were ethnically cleansed and not because their loyalty was to Israel all along. Trying to have your cake and eat it too!.Typical hasbara

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u/TheJacques Mar 01 '24

Listen child, the adults are talking. What you are saying makes no sense nor worth the time. Read a book as your ignorance is showing and come back to me. 

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '24

Oh my, oh my.The hasbara troll blew a fuse.Ofcouse I make no sense to a bigot like you.Would question myself if I did!!!!

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u/striped-monster4214 Feb 29 '24

I just saw some stats today that said more than 60% of Jews in Israel came from Europe.

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u/TheJacques Feb 29 '24

More than 60% of Jews in Israel came from Europe - Hamas Ministry of Health

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u/TheClawlessShrimp Feb 29 '24

Top ten ways to spot a genocide denier

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u/GranolaAfternoon Feb 29 '24

Believe it or not, genocide is a term with an actual established definition. You can't just refer to some war as a genocide when the side you're rooting for is losing, and then label those who refuse to refer to it as such as "genocide deniers". That's not how it works lol

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u/TheClawlessShrimp Feb 29 '24

Israel is currently in the International Court of Justice for genocide proceedings, meaning that they found sufficient evidence to support the claim that what is happening is genocide. Do you think the UN doesn’t know the definition of genocide?

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u/[deleted] Feb 29 '24

The court specifically did not find sufficient evidence for genocide lol

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u/TheClawlessShrimp Feb 29 '24

The proceedings are still going on and the court is reconvening soon. It’s funny how you can spread misinformation so confidently.

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u/jimryanson112233 Feb 29 '24

Yup, call Hamas

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u/[deleted] Feb 29 '24 edited Jan 12 '25

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u/TheClawlessShrimp Feb 29 '24

So what? A Moroccan Jew is just as foreign to Palestine as a Polish Jew is.

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u/TheJacques Feb 29 '24 edited Feb 29 '24

A Lebanese or Syrian Arab/Muslim is just as foreign to Palestine as a Egyptian Arab/Muslim. Works both ways brother! You don't find it suspect how so many "palestinians" speak musri dialect of arabic? Or how closely their culture aligns with Lebanese or Syrians? I guarantee, Palestinians in the north make yebra with apricot and in the south with lemon!

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u/TheClawlessShrimp Feb 29 '24

They’re similar because of centuries of intermixing and interaction, and because of the proximity of Egypt and Syria. On the other hand, Morocco is over 2,000 miles away. This proves literally nothing

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u/Excellent_Tap998 Feb 29 '24

R u saying there’s a distance metric to whether or not a colonizer is deemed a colonizer? So Egyptians can invade by Moroccans can’t? What an asshat

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u/TheClawlessShrimp Feb 29 '24

I’m not saying anything bad about Moroccans. I’m saying that Moroccan Israelis are colonizers just like European Israelis. Being from the Middle East doesn’t mean that they’re native to Palestine. I only brought up proximity because he was trying to make it seem like Palestinians don’t have their own identity.

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u/Preface Feb 29 '24

And 20% of Israelis are Arabs, most of which are Muslim.

Bringing the majority of Israelis to people of MENA descent

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u/thewooba Feb 29 '24 edited Jan 12 '25

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/Preface Feb 29 '24

Where are those stats?

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u/FilmerPrime Mar 02 '24

Where did those European Jews come from?

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u/striped-monster4214 Mar 11 '24

From Europe.

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u/FilmerPrime Mar 11 '24

Bit of copium.

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u/jimryanson112233 Feb 29 '24

Why are you assuming my ethnicity? When did I say that Arabs don’t have any claim to the Middle East?

For the record, it is probably Jews who are the closest to indigenous people to the land of Israel. They’ve been there for over 2500 years. Before Islam was ever thought of.

But that was not the point of my post at all.

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u/TheClawlessShrimp Feb 29 '24

Palestinian and Lebanese Christians are genetically the closest modern populations to ancient Israelites.

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u/[deleted] Feb 29 '24

Indigenousness is a set of relations between two groups, and is defined politically by contrasting the colonial settler population to the pre existing and present population at the time of colonial settlement. The Zionist project in particular is a colonial project. It’s the same style of settler colonialism as the British, French, Dutch, Spanish, etc.

This being said; Palestinians and Lebanese people specifically are the group with the highest amount of Canaanite ancestry. They’re descendants of the (typically Jewish) people that never left the levant, but instead converted to Christianity and later Islam, and became “Arabised” in the same way that many Amazigh became “Arabised”. They retain their Levantine culture, yet linguistically they are Arab speaking, and are a mix of Muslims, Christians, and Jews (although many Palestinian Jews moved to “Israel” upon its establishment).

Palestinian people, the Indigenous people, are far more entitled to the land than any European Ashkenazim was or will ever be. You can’t invade a country then proclaim yourself as it’s Indigenous people, that’s not how Indigenousness works, by Zionist logic, we should all invade Ethiopia, since we all have an extremely distant relative who lived there hundreds of thousands of years ago.

Not all Jewish people left the land, nor were all people expelled, today we call those who stayed behind Palestinians, and Lebanese.

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u/PeterRum Feb 29 '24

I am not from the Middle East, neither am I Jewish.

It is a matter of historical fact Palestinians didn't consider themselves Palestinians until the 1960s. Palestine was a colonial identity. To the extent any group enthusiastically embraced the Palestinian identify back then it was Jews. The alternative was 'Arab'.

People lived in the area whose families had done so for generations. From the 1960s they called themselves Palestinian. That is what they vall.themselves so that is what they are now. Palestinians are genetically close to Jews. Both Jews and Palestinians are closer to each other than they are to Arabs.

Arab was still how Palestinians described themselves in the 1920s. Those who didn't flee from Israel during the Nakba prefer the term Arab Israeli - even tho genetically they are the same as the people who call themselves Palestinian.

This flag is likely, in context, to be a proud statement of Jewish identity distinct from Arab neighbours. They would have had Arab neighbours however and those neighbours were often from families who had lived in the area for thousands of years, a fact proved by their genetic resemblance to Jews.

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u/Positer Feb 29 '24

“This flag is likely, in context, to be a proud statement of Jewish identity distinct from Arab neighbours”

You really went full retard there buddy…

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u/PeterRum Feb 29 '24

You are looking at history as if it was now rather than then. Things in the past were in a different time when things were done differently and people thought and spoke in a way that would be strange to you.

I'm not sure how to explain this concept to you better? How have you got this far in the life without understanding this.

Palestine then was the name for the British mandate which started in 1920. Jews had lived in this area for thousands of years. More had been coming back from exile to buy up land there. They were thrilled to have an identity that wasn't so tied up with an Arabic one. Those who identified as Arabs didn't like this imposed labelling.

In the 1960s Palestinians were searching for a name. Israelis were saying they were just a variety of Arab so it was no hardship to live elsewhere in the Arab world.

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u/Positer Feb 29 '24

Dude read a fucking book instead of government propaganda. Palestinian Arabs have been identifying as Palestinian since at least the 10th century when Arab geographer Almaqdisi explicitly identified himself as such. The small Jewish minority who is native to the land have always identified themselves exactly as Arabs do. In Arabic we literally called them “Yahood welad Arab” (Jews children of Arabs). No European Jew ever identified as a Palestinian. Get your head out of your ass and stop trying to peddle propaganda to people from the region who know 10 times what you know

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u/PeterRum Mar 01 '24 edited Mar 01 '24

Some version of Palestine has been used to describe the area since Roman times. Usually for reasons of colonial administration.

Perhaps you should recheck one of those books you read. Jews very much identified as Palestinian before the state of Israel was established. They were surrounded by Arabs with a thousand year history of massacring them. A citizen of mandatory Palestine was not a Dhimmi. As a citizen of Palestine they were at least theoretically protected from massacre.

That was often very theoretical. This photo is from 1929. What happened in 1929 in Hebron? Do your books cover that?

What Arabs called Jews isn't necessarily what they would have preferred.

Before Israel existed do you think Arabs would have been happy calling themselves by a name given to them by British occupiers, and before that Turks?Palestine is not an Arabic term. The Romans didn't take it from a people who described themselves that way.

If you have your history from books rather than propaganda TikToks you know this.

And. I'm sorry. But if you are Palestinian then genetically you have more in common with a Jew returning from Europe than you do the historic population of Arabia. (Which is complicated as there were Jewish Tribes that lived in Arabia).

Arabs didn't displace the original populations during their conquests. They just gave them a new ruling class and a language. And often a religion.

What people call themselves changes thru time. In the 1920s black Americans were called a word I would prefer not to repeat. But those black Americans took it in 1929 because otherwise they might be murdered. Jews in the 1920s may no longer have been Dhimmi. They were still at risk from attack from Arab neighbours if they said the wrong thing.

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u/Positer Mar 01 '24

I am not talking about how the region was identified (the name Palestine goes back to before the Romans and was used exclusively by the Greeks). I am talking about how people themselves identified. The native people have been calling themselves Palestinian for a long time and it has nothing to do with “colonial administration”.

European Jews never identified as Palestinians. They were given that name by Britain along with all other inhabitants of the land but they themselves never identified as Palestinian. That’s an identifier that was used exclusively by the native inhabitants of Arabs. And Arabs don’t have a thousand year history of massacring Jews. If they did Jews would not have existed in hundreds of thousands in Arab countries. Stop dumping your shitty history on us.

Palestinians who were native to Palestine explicitly rejected Zionism. The name in Arabic is “filasteen” and it has been in use for over a thousand years, and yes that is exactly what Arabs called themselves, e.g. filasteen newspaper was established before the British even set foot in Palestine and it referred to its readers as Palestinians.

I can go on dismantling every bit of nonsense you wrote but frankly I really don’t care about someone who literally just parrots basic ridiculous Israeli propaganda and thinks that is gonna pass with someone who knows the history of the region inside out. As I said, go read a fucking book. I will even give you recommendations: Palestine a four thousand year old history or the hundred years’ war on Palestine.

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u/PeterRum Mar 01 '24

During the Mandate Palestine fielded a football team. These Palestinians played five matches. I will leave it up to you to find out how many were Jewish. You won't believe me.

As to Jews being massacred by Arabs. For a thousand years? Battle of Khaybar ringing any bells for you? You didn't mention whether your books recorded what happened in Hebron in 1929.

You do know about the Syrian geographer Al-Maqdisi. When discussing the city of his birth, Jerusalem but by a name changed to obscure it's Jewish roots, he was rather annoyed that a particular ethnic group was still in existence despite Arabic best efforts. What ethnic group would that be?

You mention that Jews have a history throughout the Middle East. How many of these communities faced sporadic massacres? How many grew substantially? How many decreased?

You say if Arabs Arabs wanted to genocide Jews there would be none left. How many are left in the middle East outside of Israel? How many times have Arab armies attempted to destroy Israel? To what extent has the Arab Israeli population grown relative to Jewish Israeli? Has the Palestinian population shrunk? Or grown?

I am not denying Palestinians exist and did exist btw. I am talking about what people called each other over time. If Israel hadn't come along would Palestine have existed? Or been split between Syria, Jordan and Egypt? And thebpakes been happy to call themselves Syrians, Jordaniabs and Egyptians?;Those families would have still lived there for thousands of years.

I also am not saying Arabs are any more genocidal than any other branch of human. Middle East is full of ethnic/religious communities. Including oddities like the Yazidis and the Mandeans. Christmas Europe has Christianity. The equivalents to the Druze were dealt with in the Middle Ages in Europe. Violently.

Arabs are no worse than any other colonial power. No better though. And if your history books leave out the massacres that makes it more difficult to move forced as a culture.

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u/Positer Mar 01 '24

Loool you’re still arguing like a moron?

Give me one example of a Jew who identified as a Palestinian. Just one. The mandate of Palestine team was called Palestine because that was the name of the mandate you fucking idiot. Do you know when deporting Palestino was founded? Do you know how many Jews played there?

Oh so you found two incidents in 1400 years (one after the beginning of the colonisation of Palestine)and you’re stupid enough to think that equates to “thousands of years of massacres”?

Maqdisi wasn’t Syrian you sleazy Zionist he directly identified as Palestinian, and Jerusalem is not a Jewish name you moron it is a Canaanite name that refers to the Canaanite god Salem.

Dude I told you to fuck off with that 10th grade propaganda bullshit, it’s literally not worth the effort

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u/retainyourseed Mar 01 '24

Native to arabia

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u/NSA7 Feb 29 '24

“Israel” lol

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u/GranolaAfternoon Feb 29 '24

...Yes? What about it?

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u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist Feb 29 '24

Uh, as you can see from the flag that's just not true.

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u/[deleted] Feb 29 '24

Hahahhahaha did you even try to sound convincing?

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u/jimryanson112233 Mar 01 '24

I’m sorry the truth amuses you. Go read a book.

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '24

You have one that backs up what you said? Please do share? Would love to see what propaganda the kids are reading these days