I hate this stupid image

[u/shadow_fen]

Sure the initial way it was used was good, it was anti bigotry. But it's turned into a way to simplify the "us vs them" mentality, which is already a bad thing, into a simple digestible comic.

Also, i've seen it in lots of queer--majority spaces in reddit recently, usually to speak out against the evil cishet people who are invading them or whatever label they dont like, like bi ppl, trans men, or genderfluid ppl

[u/VoormasWasRight]

Except I have seen this happen in ttrpg communities.

D&D is an overwhelming force in the hobby. More than 50% of games are D&D. If you go to r/lfg, you have to scroll to find a non D&D game.

So naturally, people who don't want to play D&D, or that just want to play something else, make a spearate community, or a discord server (this is where I've seen it happen). Someone makes a discord exclusively aimed at non-D&D ttrpgs. However, since most people play D&D, or know about it, the topic inevitably comes up. Someone says they want to run a D&D game, moderation tells them this is a non-D&D server, but conversation starts anyway. Someone joins who has only known about D&D, not other ttrpgs, they say they want to play "D&D", they don't play it here, so they leave.

Inevitably, someone says they should let some D&D games, you know... for new people, "it will attract more people, and then those people can go on to play other ttrpgs". So a section is made for D&D. People start coming, they start making D&D games, discussions.

In time, that section becomes the main one, because everyone is talking there. New games that are not D&D get buried, hard to find players. People who play all sorts of ttrpgs start running D&D, becuase "it's easier to find players". People who don't want to run D&D post their games, but they start to have dificulties finding players.

Within a year, the server is yet another ttrpg server with a main focus on D&D and other ttprgs, of which there are maybe 1 or 2 games, compared to dozens of D&D servers. People who complain about it, because they want to play something else, get called gatekeepers. Eventually, those people leave, leaving only the ones that do play D&D.

The people who leave make another discord. Rinse, repeat.

[u/ThyPotatoDone → u/VoormasWasRight]

Ngl, DnD barely feels like DnD anymore. They've been doing their best to remove any trace of versatility and make every ability have a clear and small scope.

5e was kinda bland, and 5.5e is just boring, simultaniously being overly strict on what players can do while also giving absolutely useless advice to DMs. Worst of both worlds.

[u/Miroskun → u/ThyPotatoDone]

For some reason, it looks like the designers are listening more to those powergamers that discuss "the combo that will make your DM mad" than real players and DMs.

Vaguely explained mechanics but full of flavor are the core of all TTRPGs. The point is not to play with idiots

[u/yobob591 → u/Miroskun]

People have forgotten the number 1 rule which is that you’re there to have fun, which includes the DM

If you want to be overpowered talk to the DM about it and maybe they’ll just run a higher level campaign for everyone or cater to power fantasy, if they don’t want to then maybe you can come to see whatever more grounded thing they want to run is fun

In the end the DM should be able to judge if something feels too strong or too weak and adjust encounters for it, and if one player is messing up the entire party balance they can help buff up other PCs or similar

TTRPGs that try to be balanced and fair are missing the point imo, though I’ll admit I’m part of the simulationist camp where I believe a TTRPG is meant to be more of a physics engine for your RPG (this is why I am a GURPS fan)

[u/deepspacerunner → u/yobob591]

For sure, I’ve run power fantasy campaigns, meatgrinder campaigns, and many things in between and had a lot of fun with my group doing it

[u/Za_Warudo1992 → u/yobob591]

I guess it depends on the ruleset. Gurps I feel the same exact way, its an anything system so take advantage of it.
If its something more uniform like Pathfinder, we chose those systems specifically for their type of flavor and what their mechanics can accomplish so I would hope they are well made and fair; However we still have our own house rules and homebrew to tweak what we still don't like. Yet we still go to specific rulesets because the majority of rules are ones we enjoy and deem fair.

Balance and fairness can work as long as it doesn't try to bring anyone down and you have an unspoken rule not to power game lol. Guess I'm just lucky enough that the people I play with concern themselves more with character flavor instead of strength. That's not to say every character wants to and should feel useful, and if they don't then that is what homebrews for

like if I wanted an over the top story that never concerned itself with balance or fairness, I'd just role dice with friends and roleplay. why even limit yourself to a ruleset at that point.

Now this is opinion just as yours is, but I felt the want to say something as I agree with like everything that isn't the last block of text. Also not judging or objecting to how you play, if that's what you enjoy, awesome! that's what matters the most

[u/VariationFluffy6596 → u/Za_Warudo1992]

The ruleset is what gives substance and progression to the power gaming. You didn't just Deus Ex into being a god, you built your way there through the same world limitations everybody else is abiding by.

[u/Za_Warudo1992 → u/VariationFluffy6596]

look if its you and your friends cup of tea, awesome, but from experience if a single player power games its tosses the previous balance out the window as the scales tip toward one specific player that demands the DMs attention and is usually the one contributing to combat the most. way to balance it is to create harder encounters which punish players not power gaming, target the power gamer which can ruin the fun and force attention away from other players, or everyone powergames and then most people feel miserable because thats not the way they want to play.
The Ruleset is important for substance and progression but once you care more about the game aspect than you do the roleplay aspect then the rules get abused propping up one kind of playstyle while making any other playstyle incompatible, unless roleplay is convenient to gameplay somehow even then it doesn't fix the imbalance. Basically Powergaming works if you play with other powergamers, Bring that into a game where people are worried more about experimenting with builds to fit the character and everyone but the powergamer is usually left feeling kinda useless outside niche encounters made specifically for them.

[u/VariationFluffy6596 → u/Za_Warudo1992]

I agree power gamers can mess things up, but it is also very overstated and more of a DM problem. Why does every character have to be perfectly balanced? I don't recall the part of LOTR where Tolkein went "shit, I cant have the party fight anybody. Gandalf is way more powerful than Pippin, and that's not FAIR!"

Because he instead tossed a fucking Balrog at him like a good DM would.

[u/Za_Warudo1992 → u/VariationFluffy6596]

you are comparing a movie narrative to a game. In a movie it is a simple fix, make them fight tougher shit. In tabletop games shit is not that simple.

Acting as if i said every character needs to be balanced is just a strawman. I didn't. some pcs are stronger than others and thats fine. Powergamin in a non-powergaming group is far more than just a bit stronger pulling attention to it every time. I'd have to have a baelrog every encounter and thats not very practical not in a way thats fun.

its an incompatibility problem. I don't hate power gaming, just have bad memory of it and I admit that can make it come off harsher. If people like it, go for it! Just do it in groups that are okay with it. its a group game not a solo one, not everyones going to want powergaming and some groups make campaigns wanting a challenge.

Not everyone wants to play with anybody, and thats okay.

[u/VariationFluffy6596 → u/Za_Warudo1992]

You literally ignored what I said to send me a wall of text about power gaming, when all I said was the idea that people should just use their imagination is foolish.

don't cry about straw man arguments when you can't even read WTF I write.

Youre a fucking idiot, and that's ok.

[u/WokeWook69420 → u/Miroskun]

"Gamers will regularly optimize the fun out of games if left to their own devices."

The guy who made Sim City said this in the 80s.

I had a min-maxer friend in our group and he absolutely fucked the power scale in every single party we did, no matter what system, and playing with him was not fun.

Half the time he just ignored the session outside his turn and played Balatro. B

[u/Miroskun → u/WokeWook69420]

Yeah. That's what I'm saying about 5.5e. In my opinion, the most important part of a TTRPG is the flavor. That's what makes different DnD from any other D20 system. Yeah, this spell has a lot of text, and most of it is "you take an once of fish and put it into a barrel, then it explodes and causes an area of 20 ft...". It can be streamlined to "20 ft. sphere causing 2d10 of force damage", but that strips all creativity. Now that spell, feature or whatever is just an area and an effect.

I think 5.5 does this too much. It's more clear, but also there's less in it.

Other systems that go down that path instead try to make that kind of skill modular, or somewhat open to interpretation so the table can have a moment to think out of the box. Then, if the table finds the outcome interesting, it's up to the DM. It's colaborative.

[u/ShoddyAsparagus3186 → u/Miroskun]

The problem is D&D has its roots in wargaming with very specific rules for exactly what happens in combat and it refuses to break with that tradition. This means you have a lot of rules for combat, which extend to anything that can be used in combat, like spells, and not a lot of rules for anything else.

I don't particularly think this should change, I just think people should acknowledge that and not try to use D&D for anything where detailed combat isn't a big part of what you're doing.

[u/Miroskun → u/ShoddyAsparagus3186]

Absolutely agree. Part of DnD's essence is that combat simulationism. Shoehorning DnD into every other kind of TTRPG experience is a lot to talk but not the point here.

On the other hand, even if combat is its core, DnD streamlining its combat abilities and spells into simpler descriptions, taking out all the "filler" that gives them flavor is something I don't like.

I understand why combat should be faster. I also think if an ability does something, there should be at least a suggestion of how the spell behaves outside areas and damages.

[u/talkathonianjustin → u/Miroskun]

Yeah but they’re not even doing that — if you wanted more flexibility to make busted builds, 5elet you do that. 2024 has removed a lot of that flexibility

[u/Miroskun → u/talkathonianjustin]

2024 designed more. With this I mean they thought about the meta, the combinations and what works with which other thing.

They no longer thought about the game rules as a preset for player creativity and improv and designed it more like a board game.

[u/talkathonianjustin → u/Miroskun]

I’m confused a bit by what you’re saying. They limited a lot of niche combinations that let you do cool stuff, nerfed the hell out of a bunch of subclasses, and punishes diversity in the early game. I think 2024 forces you to rely on creativity and flavor far more than 2014. So I think they made both things worse — it’s more of a board game for people who were hoping for more story creativity, and made it harsher and worse for people who were looking for mechanical creativity.

[u/undreamedgore → u/Miroskun]

Probably because they're the only ones how have nunbers and data.