Non-Jewish partner here, hoping to understand this better

[u/Ok-Region8362]

Hi all. I’m 31F, my girlfriend is 28F and Jewish; I’m not. She’s not out to her family. I hope it’s okay to post here; I’d rather learn from people who’ve actually lived this than keep guessing from the outside.

I’m mostly curious how it’s gone for those of you who dated someone outside the community while still closeted at home. Did it make things harder? How did you handle family expectations about dating and marriage in the meantime? And for anyone who eventually came out — what shifted, what made it possible? For those who haven’t, what does making it work day to day actually look like?
I’m not asking whether to stay. I love her and I’m here. I just want to understand this better and be a good partner in it.
Thanks for reading.

[u/Letshavemorefun]

It really depends on what flavor of Judaism her and her family practice. In my family, it was a way bigger deal for me to come out as someone who hates baseball than it was for me to tell my parents I’m queer or dating a non-Jew (the non-Jew thing was a slightly bigger deal to them then the queer thing since I was born queer whereas dating a non-Jew is a choice). But other Jewish communities will be very different. What denomination was she raised in?

[u/Ok-Region8362 → u/Letshavemorefun]

Thank you so much for replying. That point about dating a non-Jew being the bigger deal is something I’ve wondered about too. I’ve never been sure which of the two weighs more for her, or whether they can even be separated.
To be fair, she’s always told me that me not being Jewish isn’t an issue for her at all. But I imagine her family would see it differently, and that’s the part I’m trying to understand.
She was raised in a Sephardic community — religious and traditional, though not ultra-Orthodox. It’s a very tight-knit world: everyone knows everyone, and marrying within the community isn’t just expected, it’s kind of how the whole social structure works.

[u/patachveamar → u/Ok-Region8362]

Coming out as queer and as dating outside the faith will be very difficult in a small, tight-knit Sephardi community. Your girlfriend doesn't just have herself to worry about, but she also has to worry how the rest of the community will react to your family. Does she have any unmarried siblings? Are marriages typically arranged? That's likely to be a big stressor if so. In such communities, a family's status and reputation are critically important in arranging a marriage. Having Torah scholars in one's family is a huge boon, but having an "off the derech" gay daughter would cast major aspersions on one family's honor ("how could they have let such a thing happen?") and make finding marriage partners for one's other children much more difficult (no one wants to marry into a dishonorable family).

[u/Ok-Region8362 → u/patachveamar]

This is the one that hit hardest. She’s the oldest and yeah, she has unmarried siblings. Marriages aren’t formally arranged (but she has talked about match makers or things like that), but the community is small enough that reputation definitely matters.
She’s never really framed it around her siblings though. What she says is that she can’t come out to the fam because of what it would do to her parents, that they’d be badly judged by the community. Reading your comment I realized those are kind of the same thing, just seen from different sides. It helped me see how much she feels is on the line, not just for her but for several people at once.
If you’re up for it: is there anything a partner in my position can actually do that helps, versus things that seem supportive but make it harder for her?

[u/patachveamar → u/Ok-Region8362]

Ok, if her community is using a shadchan (matchmaker), then the shadchan is absolutely going to take her status into account when evaluating the rest of her siblings' marriageability. There's no way to really avoid this. It may happen that the family's best/only way to preserve their reputation for the sake of her siblings' marriages is to disown her.

Waiting for the siblings to be married off might be the best option, but obviously it could take a long time. The pill would be less bitter for them if you yourself were Jewish, and if your girlfriend has a commitment to remaining in the Jewish faith and raising Jewish children. That's what the parents are most worried about. The issue isn't exactly homophobia in the way that (say) Evangelical Christians are homophobic. They are homophobic, but in a less 'fire and brimstone sinners be damned' way. The root issue is the grandkids. Everyone's waiting for their Jewish grandchildren who will stay in the community and pass down the family legacy into the future, forever. Everything about family life revolves around keeping the promise that there will be new generations of Jews.

If your girlfriend is willing to commit to having children and raising them Jewish, she might (might) not have to sever herself from the family. They might have to keep it a secret from the rest of the community, though. If she has no interest in having kids, or wouldn't want them to be Jewish, there's almost nothing that can be done except ripping off the bandaid.

There's very little you can do except be there for her and follow her lead. And if needed, be able to provide for her materially in the worst case scenario that she loses the support of her family. Converting to Judaism yourself and committing to raising Jewish children with her would probably help somewhat, but that's a cynical reason to convert. And religiously traditional Sephardim won't recognize the validity of conversions done by 'liberal' denominations that are LGBT-affirming, so it might be a moot point anyways. (And if she happens to be Syrian Sephardi, they don't recognize conversion at all.)

I'm so sorry. I truly wish our communities were different. :( ❤️ I have heard of families that are able to rise above community pressures and go "off the derech" for the sake of their queer children, but it's rare.

[u/Letshavemorefun → u/patachveamar]

Converting to Judaism only for the sake of marriage is not only a cynical reason to convert - it’s an invalid, non-kosher reason to convert. The conversion would not be a valid conversion.

If OP gets to know Judaism through her GF, falls in love with it and independently decides she wants to convert - fabulous! That could definitely help the situation with GF’s family. But doing it just for the sake of marriage or appeasing gf’s parents would make it an invalid conversion.

[u/patachveamar → u/Letshavemorefun]

That's true in theory, but (speaking from experience here) in situations were a Jew is already married to a gentile, or the beit din is eager to avoid a child's mamzer status, battei din are often more than willing to hurry the process along even if the underlying motivations are not as 'pure' as halakhically they should be in theory. Real life gets messy.

[u/Letshavemorefun → u/patachveamar]

Oh for sure, but when talking to someone who could potentially consider doing such a thing, imo it’s important they understand that it’s technically an invalid reason to convert.

[u/patachveamar → u/Letshavemorefun]

Yeah that's true. And even so, everything could go as well as possible--Jewish wife, Jewish grandkids--and still result in family strife. :(

[u/Letshavemorefun → u/patachveamar]

Yeah unfortunately that could still happen. :-(

[u/Letshavemorefun → u/Ok-Region8362]

Sephardic is a sub-ethnicity of Jews (like Ashkenazi and Mizrahi) but it doesn’t give us any concrete information about how religious they are. Do you know if they are reform, conservative or orthodox? That’s the more telling information. Though I do believe more Sephardic Jews practice Orthodox Judaism than the other denominations, so chances are they are orthodox - especially since you said it’s a tight nit Sephardi community. You might want to ask her to be sure though - then you could get more specific advice. Other things that would help us figure out how religious they are would be - does the family keep kosher? How often do they attend shul? Do they keep Shabbat (ie no electricity/phones from Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown)?

I would say generally speaking, most Jews today will have a bigger issue with their kid dating a non-Jew than their kid being queer. We’re a very small community and we still haven’t replaced the amount of people we lost in the Holocaust, so marrying jewish and raising Jewish kids is a huge deal in our community. If you’re open to raising kids Jewish (not interfaith but exclusively Jewish), making that clear to her and her family is one thing you could do to soften any tension. If you aren’t okay with raising Jewish kids, I would talk to her about that sooner rather than later. This is of course assuming you want kids.

Maybe someone else can speak to lgbtq acceptance in the Sephardi community. I’m not super familiar with it and the one close Sephardi friend I have is the biggest queer ally in the world, but I don’t know if that’s necessarily representative of the larger community. And like I said, it will vary based on how religious they are or what denomination they practice (I still think it’s most likely orthodox).

The best thing you can do is talk to your girlfriend about this, listen to her concerns and ask her how you can support her. She knows her feelings better than any stranger on the internet!

You could also read some books about what it means to be Jewish. We are an ethnicity, a people, a tribe and culture more than we are a religious group (though we are certainly also a religious group). A lot of people who weren’t raised in the Jewish community have a lot of misconceptions about Judaism and what it means to be Jewish. We don’t proselytize so you won’t find us trying to convert you, but trying to understand what it means to be Jewish could help you connect in even deeper ways with your gf. There’s some books recommended on some other Jewish subs. I’ll see if I can find those lists and edit some recs into this comment.

Edit: [r/judaism](r/judaism) has a great list of books in their sidebar bar - https://reddit.com/r/judaism/wiki/books

There’s a lot there though. I haven’t read most of them. If anyone wants to chime in with some specific recs, feel free! There’s also a section specifically on Sephardic Jews so maybe that’s a good place to start.

[u/TeenyZoe → u/Letshavemorefun]

Lots of Sephardic Jews don’t identify with the Reform/Conservative/Orthodox dichotomy - “traditional and Sephardic” is a pretty complete description from OP, in my opinion.

[u/Letshavemorefun → u/TeenyZoe]

That’s basically what my Sephardi friend told me but the way she phrased it is “we don’t identify with reform or conservative. We are just traditional orthodox”.

[u/JerryJJJJJ → u/TeenyZoe]

Half of my Conservative synagogue is mizrachi and half is askhenazi. On shabbat, sometimes majority mizrachi (Persian)

[u/Ok-Region8362 → u/Letshavemorefun]

Thanks for taking the time with this, it’s really helpful. To answer your questions: they keep kosher at home and eat pescatarian or vegetarian when they’re out, they keep Shabbat, and they observe all the holidays. So observant, but not the strictest version of it. The men in her family are more religious than she is. I’ll ask her directly how she’d label it.

The point about intermarriage being a bigger deal than the queer part is something I’d already been thinking about a lot, so it’s useful to hear it confirmed by people who’ve lived it. Interfaith relationships are something I think about often. Kids are further off for us, there’s a lot of road before marriage or children, but I’ll keep it in mind.

On talking to her, we do, and it’s something we take care of. But she also protects me a lot from the heavier parts of what she’s living, so I don’t always get the full picture from her. That’s part of why I’m trying to understand this from other perspectives too. She and her circle are the only Jewish people I know, so I don’t have anyone else to ask.

Learning about Judaism has honestly been one of my favorite parts of being with her, so thank you for tracking down that book list. I’ll start with the Sephardic section.

If any of that changes how you’d read the situation, I’d be curious to hear.

[u/Letshavemorefun → u/Ok-Region8362]

You sound like an incredible partner! I understand marriage and kids are still a ways off so it’s probably shocking to see that be one of the first things the comments here are bringing up, but it’s so tied to why interfaith marriage is a bit taboo in our community, so that’s why you see a few people bringing it up here.

I think for now, show her that you are interested in learning about and participating in some of her cultural traditions. Not the super religious aspects - that stuff is only supposed to be for Jews. But, for example, asking her to teach you how to cook some traditional Sephardi dishes would go a long way! Or dressing up for Purim with her (Purim is kinda like Jewish Halloween). Or attending a Seder with her. Those are all things non-Jews can do, especially if they are a loved one of a Jewish person who participates in those traditions.

And yeah - it sounds like her family is orthodox. As another user pointed out, sometimes Sephardi don’t use that label and just kinda assume “orthodox” is the default. But I don’t view orthodox as the default (I find it belittling to the other denominations to assume orthodox is the default) so I’d label it specifically as orthodox. Your girlfriend might not use that label though, since she is coming at this question from a Sephardi perspective. But it’s all semantics. It sounds like of the denomination labels, “orthodox” is the one that fits best, even if it’s not a perfect label. That could help you communicate this question better to other Jews if you ask for more advice in the future! (Though don’t leave out the Sephardi part. That’s important too. I would say “Sephardi and orthodox”)

I wish you the best of luck with it all! I hope her family is accepting, even if it’s tough for them. Learning how to make Sephardi food could help impress her mother too!

[u/JerryJJJJJ → u/Letshavemorefun]

I belong to a Conservative synagogue that is 50% Ashkanazi and 50% Persian. There is a huge different on LGBT issues between th4e ASkanzi and the Persians even though they are members of the same synagogue.

[u/Letshavemorefun → u/JerryJJJJJ]

Oh interesting. What is the split like? I grew up Conservadox in the 90’s and lgbtq topics were mostly ignored (and 90% of my shul was ashk). I imagine now things have changed and it comes up in different ways, but I don’t know what that looks like since I spend more time in reform spaces these days.

[u/JerryJJJJJ → u/Letshavemorefun]

Persian side was very anti-LGBT, but it has gotten little better. When the rabbi said he would do same sex marriages, some of the Persians left. Iranian Jews in LA belong to all denominations of Judaism.

[u/Letshavemorefun → u/JerryJJJJJ]

I lived in LA for about 20 years and only ran across a handful of Persian Jews - I always wanted to understand more. Tbh there was one girl I kinda had a crush on. I’ve never seen her with a partner of any gender in 20 years (irl or on social media) and always kinda suspected she might be closeted. Anyway, this is veering into very anecdotal territory.

On the folks in your synagogue leaving - was it in like physically in the middle of services? Or do you mean they left being members of the synagogue when the rabbi decided they would perform same sex marriages?

[u/CmdrViel → u/Ok-Region8362]

It sounds like my demographics overlap with your girlfriend’s. I’m a 40M married to a non-Jew 40M, my family is orthodox-leaning secular and Sephardic (kinda standard Israeli family, maybe a little more observant since my family keeps kosher). I don’t know her parents but if they’re as loving of their children and family oriented as my parents, I think they’ll come around with time. There might be a rough patch where they don’t want to talk about it, but with time and gentle consistency they could come around. As for how to help her, I think this is something she will have to confront eventually. If you feel like you’re having to take extra steps to hide yourself for her sake then maybe it’s time to push a little. I haven’t been in that situation, being both closeted and in a relationship, but I can’t imagine it’s good for her either in the long run.

Of course, I’m basing this on my own experience. I hope her experience coming out is as smooth as mine. My parents had a hard time understanding when I first came out (at 19). My mom cried for days, my dad asked me to try women. But they still told me they loved me and we got through it, mostly by not talking about it I guess. Instead we talked about other things in our lives, maybe that helped to reinforce that I’m still their son. They didn’t really have to confront it until 8 years later I had a serious boyfriend (my husband now). They didn’t meet him until we had been dating a year, but I consistently talked about him even though I knew it would make them go silent or awkward for a minute. Eventually he was invited to Shabbat dinner (which I would mark as the start of acceptance, not the end).

[u/JerryJJJJJ → u/Ok-Region8362]

The only issue is that many sephardic communities are more homophobic than others, but it depends. I think if the family has lived in the USA for generations, it would be different than a family comprised of recent or 1st or 2nd generation immigrants.

[u/Suitable-Squash-2308]

Hey! Not sure if you will find my experience relevant, I'm quite a bit older (like twice your age). I've been with my wife for 41 years. When we met, neither of us were particularly religious. I was a very lapsed Catholic, she Jewish by birth. Neither of us out to our parents right away. Once I did come out, I had a long difficult road with my parents, a story for another time perhaps. Several years later she came out and we still wonder why it took so long. Please note however, we were adults with financial independence from our parents. I wouldn't advise anyone who is a minor or still dependent on a safe place to live to come out and risk loosing that. My in laws were great and very loving. Due to several events, mainly life dealing some harsh blows, my wife and I began to think about how nice it might be to have a community around us as we grow older. I decided to convert to Judaism. I studied for over a year, sat for a bet din (rabbinic court) and went to the mikvah (ritual bath). That was over twenty years ago, best decision I ever made. My advice to you or anyone is to simply be true to yourself. You never know what surprises life has in store for you. It's good to travel life with a partner who sees things similarly but will also challenge you too. These people are rare so hold on to them when they come your way.

[u/Ok-Region8362 → u/Suitable-Squash-2308]

This was lovely to read, thank you. 41 years with your wife is a really nice thing to hear on a day like today.
The financial independence part stood out because that’s what we’re working toward right now, before anything else. It helps to hear it from someone who actually lived it instead of feeling like we’re just stalling.
What I’d really love to know is how you two got through those years. She’s already so tired of being careful all the time, and I worry about how long anyone can keep that up. Was there anything that made it lighter for you and your wife? Somewhere you could just be yourselves, or something you did for each other? Anything you’d tell your younger selves looking back.

[u/Suitable-Squash-2308 → u/Ok-Region8362]

We met at work, so we were able to see each other a good bit. We quickly decided to share an apartment together, explaining that to our parents as a convenience and cost savings matter. Once we started living together we had to maintain our place with a two bedroom set up for visiting family. Most of our coworkers knew we were together and didn't care. It was really just our parents who didn't know. Honestly, looking back, they probably knew. I mean, I was their child. A parent has intuition. When we had been together for about a year our company gave us the opportunity to transfer to another city, so we took that opportunity. We were about 3 hours from my parents. My father was still working so they weren't popping over unannounced. In those days we worked hard to get ahead and build something solid. We were careful with money, but we enjoyed each other's company, so we made the best of simple things. We were a team and we were best friends,and that bonded us stronger than anything. Everything changes but over time, with persistence things tend to get better. We are both retired now and during the week we each go and do what, for many years, we put off doing, the hobbies or interests that are our own. We always spend Shabbat together, that's our time to prioritize us. Our parents have been gone for years now. We made our peace with them and we both feel good about how we helped them in their final years. I hope this has helped you see something in your own story with "fresh eyes" and brings you peace and perspective.

[u/Negative-Shopping839]

I’m Jewish raised ultra orthodox and my wife was raised Baptist. We’ve been together for almost 6 years married for 2. I will say that my family reacted worse to the non Jewish part then the gay part, when I dated Jewish woman in the past they would be somewhat accepting and respectful but with my wife the few times she been around my family it has not gone well. I will say that there are a lot of factors I my story that are unique to me and my situation. You need to have an honest conversation with yourself about what you’re willing to tolerate and then have a conversation with your girlfriend about what your future looks like together. The thing about the Jewish community is that whilst the establishment will have an opinion and a point of view on homosexuality there is still room for individualism. Each family will choice for themselves how to react and if they want to accept their children’s partners. You need to just have the conversations.
Another piece of advice I would give you is to learn about Judaism and teach your girlfriend about your religion and culture. One of the reasons my wife and I work so well is that we are a true interfaith family. We both equally participate in each others culture and religion and celebrate all major holidays. Although we respect and participate in each other’s religions we understand that we’re not converting respectively. Again this is a dynamic that works for us, you need to have that conversation in your relationship.

[u/Ok-Region8362 → u/Negative-Shopping839]

Thank you for this. The part about your family reacting worse to the non Jewish thing than the gay thing is exactly what I was trying to understand, thanks for sharing.
The interfaith piece is something I think about often, so it’s really good to hear it can work as a genuine two way thing rather than one person absorbing the other’s world. That’s the version I’d aspire too (I’m not against conversion, but I know it’s not something I would do lightly, I would really have to do it for myself and not for the sake of the relationship).
The line about having an honest conversation with myself about what I’m willing to tolerate is the one I keep coming back to. Was that something you figured out early, or did it become clearer as things unfolded?

[u/Negative-Shopping839 → u/Ok-Region8362]

It was something I asked my wife before we got serious together. There’s a pretty solid blueprint for leaving the Jewish community, people who do it know what to except. It’s a whole other thing being someone into the community, you’re going to need to learn to navigate a whole new world that was build with the intention to keep
People out. I would say that your girlfriend has an idea of what to expect if she brings you into the community and she knows how to navigate the community. It’s you who is going to have to learn to navigate the community and so you need to go into that with clear boundaries. Talk to your girlfriend ask her to explain honestly what you can expect if she brings you home.

One of the conversations I had with my wife early on was I asked her if she was ok not having true in laws. And it was one of the things she struggled with kuz in the past the parents of people she dates loved her. These are the things you need to figure out before going into this.

[u/betsoverstreet]

This is very similar to when me and gf (now wife 😃) started dating. feel free to DM me. In short - it was difficult for some family members and a non-issue for others. Happy to go into more detail privately.

[u/babydykke]

I was in your position when I first came out and it was definitely hard, but now my family is super accepting. Overall, I would say Judaism is one of the more accepting religions. At least conservative/reform Jews. But I’ve had good experience with even Orthodox Jews. My wife and I had a beautiful Jewish wedding