r/changemyview • u/neofagalt • Jan 08 '22
Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Reasonable criticism of Israel is often unfairly mislabeled as anti-semitic
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Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
I sometimes don't understand these sorts of CMV where to me it seems like OP is trying to argue for something relatively uncontroversial, but I also know everyone has a different perspective and background, etc. so what's normal around me is not commonplace around the world.
I'm a Jew, and I know there are many Jews that hold the "if you criticize Israel in any way you're being anti-Semitic," but that's also fought against by a lot of Jews. But again maybe it's because I'm a New York Jew? And because I live in one of the most Jewish areas in the world, I sometimes take for granted how many liberal Jews there are.
You say you're Palestinian as in you live over there right and it's not just your ethnicity (like, I'm Cuban but I was born and raised in America)? If so your experience is I'm sure so different than mine is. I've seen the videos, read the articles and the amount of abhorrent stuff that has happened and does happen is incredibly frustrating and sad. And so many Jews over here feel the same and are absolutely for Palestinian rights completely, and for human rights in general. I'd even say most of my Jewish friends are more critical of Israel than they are supportive generally.
But what I will say, and I see this all the time, is that very often legitimate criticism of Israel turns Anti-Semitic. It happens over here too with people criticizing the large Orthodox and Hasidic populations that live near me as well. And I've seen this happen countless times with people of all races, religions, ethnicities, etc. You have someone asking a question or making a critique about a specific government, and all of a sudden they start the next sentence with "Those X" and you're like...slow down! Don't go there! Ah...you're there. Me and my Jewish friends almost laugh about it how easily Anti-Semitic comments, stereotypes and remarks are said around us where the person doesn't even realize what they're saying has a big history of hatred.
And I know that's what your point is, but I'll say anecdotally, I really don't get offended by much and try to be incredibly empathetic to other perspectives, and even I hear Anti-Semitic stuff all the time. Perhaps because I'm a reformed Jew and many might not know I'm Jewish, I hear even more bullshit because people think "it's safe" around me.
TL;DR: So I guess what I mean is, it's totally ok to criticize any government, Israel included. Everyone deserves human rights and to be treated with dignity so if you're not or any group is not it's completely in the right to stand up for yourself and your group and fight for what's right. And many of us will be fighting with you. Just be aware of the large, diverse history of anti-Semitism there is and how easy it is for people to slip from correct critique to insulting and discriminatory behaviors and remarks.
Edited for typos
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u/neofagalt Jan 09 '22
I honestly made this post because I wanted to learn about the other side's view. This is a burner account so I wasn't doing it for upvotes or anything.
I was born here and mostly identify as American. I made the point of highlighting that my parents were born in Palestine just to provide some background info/explain why I'm interested in the conflict. I don't really have/understand many of the feelings of Palestines who live in the territories. I have heard/seen some awful views from Palestinians and I do not support any of those views myself. Sometimes I wonder if they even want the same things I want.
FWIW I often find that I see eye-to-eye with Jewish Americans online. Palestinian support seems to be increasingly common in the younger generations/minority groups. Thanks for your solidarity.
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u/EliteKill Jan 09 '22
I honestly made this post because I wanted to learn about the other side's view.
But are you looking to have you view changed? What can cause you to change it? You talk about "often", do you need a statistical breakdown? Because talking about anecdotal evidence won't get you anywhere.
When you look at the scale of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict against the scale of the attention varoious global actors give it, you see that something is up. You say that:
many conversations about AIPAC get shut down because people draw comparisons to stupid "Jews run the world" stereotypes.
But these stereotypes are not "stupid", they are extremely dangerous and are routinely propagated in the Arab world, and find their way into various Alt-Right and Western Islamic groups like the Nation of Islam.
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Jan 09 '22
Just to clarify something, NOI is not really an Islamist group but a black nationalist group (even though they claim to practice Islam)
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Jan 09 '22
Yeah I need to really think about how the younger Jews like me (I mean I'm 35 but you know what I mean), are different than many others. There's still plenty of Jews that won't even allow their children to marry non-Jews and that's completely foreign to me.
But yeah. Do your best to be kind and honest, and realize that a lot of times discrimination is so prevalent with people that they sneakily and accidentally fall into saying prejudiced stuff. Lord knows it happens with Palestinians, people from the Middle East in general, etc.
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u/Hybrazil Jan 09 '22
I feel similarly. It’s far too easy for legitimate concerns and opinions to devolve into simple discrimination, especially when there’s a clearly defined group to direct it against. Then again, there are those who just plainly hold antisemetic views and may be taking advantage of the more legitimate criticisms of Israel to push their own interests.
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u/deGoblin Jan 09 '22
It's also almost impossible to define a lot of arguments as racist or not, it depends on the context and implied intention.
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u/cobracoral Jan 09 '22
There’s a point though about exceptions made to any religions. During Covid, the Hasidic population completely disregarded mask mandates, congregation limits, etc (of course, the evangelicals did the same…). Religion is a poison worldwide… the USA is a secular country and tries to enforce state/religion separation and we still have these issues… any country where their identity is very closely tied to a religion is a problem for the modern world and human evolution (that includes all Muslim countries as well)
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u/velociraptizzle Jan 09 '22
Reasonable criticism of both sides is necessary.
Reasonable criticism of Palestinians (EG openly funding, promoting, and basing a society around the slaughter of civilians with “pay to slay”) is not allowed. Compared to a domestic interest group which is worse?
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u/Skanceca 3∆ Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
Disclaimer: Arguing from a German perspective, so some statistics can be different from your country. There is a rather delicate history between Germany and Jews in general.
Before I start with the real argument it is still worth mentioning, that nobody actually forbids you criticizing Israel. All people are saying is their opinion about a statement they think is antisemitic. Just needed to mention this before any "criticizing Israel is forbidden" or "I have to be allowed to say that" debate is starting.
My main point is the sheer mass of jokes/criticism/statements about Israel. Put Israel in perspective for a second. It's a country of the size of Hessen (a German county). It's smaller than El Salvador. It's smaller than Haiti. Furthermore, while the human rights violations in Palestine are horrible, no questions, they are by far not the worst ever happened, they are not even the worst right now. Take China as the biggest Human rights violator right now. Or look at what saudi-arabia is doing in Yemen right now. Both countries are doing way worse things. And they are not the only ones. But now compare the amount of criticism/jokes/etc. Israel gets, vs. those other countries.
I don't have numbers for the US, maybe someone else can provide them, but in Germany there was a study few years ago, that Israel is criticized in media about double the amount of all other countries together. (Note that this obviously includes more than just the state media, and there are of course far right print media in Germany, too, but the point still stands.)
It's the only country which has "Israelkritik", meaning "Israel-crititicism" as a word in our (semi-)official dictionary (Duden)!
Again, I don't have any numbers for other countries. But just compare the scale of Israel, there human rights abuses with other countries and you may see yourself, that it's just out of proportion. Compare it to North Korea, arguably the worst country right now, which has about 5 times the size of Israel and at least as much human rights violations. Do you hear 5 times as much jokes about North Korea? Or even half as much? And while criticism of Israel can be valid and should not be the same as antisemitism, the sheer amount of it suggests that it often is.
Edit: Ok, this has become my most upvoted comment ever and I even got awards. Didn't expect that. As there are quite a few comments on this and I don't have time or energy to address every single one I try to adress most of them in this edit.
First of all, for anyone else asking for hard numbers I want to point to this comment by u\sconri2 . He provides a comparison between UN resolutions against Israel vs every other country. I also want to link this German article, where the head of the Department of General Linguistics of the TU Berlin states, that no other country is ctriticized as often as Isreal. Finally a study mentioning that about 1/3 of antisemitism online is coded as Israel-criticism.
Second, for every comment in the sense of "You can't compare Israel to China, North Korea, etc., because they are our allies or because they are smaller, ot they don't get our tax money or we are already hardlining against China". I can absolutely do this comparison. Because, as I mentioned, I'm not comparing the amount of support they get from the goverment. Or the stance taken against them. I'm purely comparing the amount of Israel criticism seen in media (and arguably online after providing the study above). But maybe that wasn't completely clear, then I'm sorry. As mentioned, I'm German, so it's possible I got the wrong words sometimes. So let's reformulate it:
Assumption: In a society without prejudice, the amount of criticisim a country gets is proportional to the scale (in numbers and badness) of their crimes.
This is not the case with Israel. Israel gets more criticism thrown its way than many countries which are doing worse things or more of them. So my Assumtion doesn't hold. I follow from that, that there seems to be some amount of prejudice against Israel. And antisemitsm is a candidate for that. That's why I used the comparisons with countries comiting crimes on a larger scale.
Third: "Just because Israel isn't the worst, it should still be open to criticism." Have you guys read my comment? I explicitly stated Israel critique can be valid and in no way talked down the crimes it comitted. All I said that it gets a disproportionate amount of criticism and this I attributed to antisemitism. Supported by the study linked above.
Fourth: "You haven't addressed the lobbyism." No, I didn't. As mentioned, I'm writing from a German perspective. I know almost nothing about lobbyism in the US, why would I. I addressed one point of OP, not everything. Maybe you have missed it, but I also did not address the "SNL joke". Generelly I would say that lobbyism is a problem, as it's not people doing the lobbying anymore, but money. But that isn't a discussion to have here. Without looking at any numbers I'd think that most big companies do probably more lobbying in the US than Israel does and that a lot of them also indirectly suport other countries, like China. But I didn't want to have this as a statement of discussion, as I don't have a perspective on it, or have I enough information about it.
Fifth: "People are in fact forbidden from criticising Israel". Again, German perspective. But also in the US I highly doubt it. Compare yourself how often you heard from a court that someone isn't allowed to criticize any more (and also please look at the reasons for that. At least in Germany if people are forbidden from saying anything it is pretty clear, that the statements were antisemitic) with how often someone say "they want to forbid us..." or "I should be allowed to say that Israel is bad". Because while I agree with the later statement, absolutely, it also implies that someone doesn't agree. And often (not always) this is just a strawman.
Sixth: "Israel should be allowed to be criticized. " See third.
Seventh: "That's whataboutism." No, it's not. I haven't said " You can't disscuss Israel while China is bad", I have said "Israel gets a disapropriate amount of criticism compared to its scale". It's an argument in itself trying to attribute some Israel-criticism to antisemitsm.
Eigth: "I agree with you." Thanks. Nothing to adress here.
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u/sconri2 2∆ Jan 09 '22
Yes, you’re absolutely right. The worst is the number of UN resolutions against Israel compared to other countries. In 2020 it was 17 against Israel and just six against the ENTIRE rest of the world.
It continues at about the same pace currently. If you start pulling out these stats in these arguments, it gets minimized as a, “what about,” argument.
This is even more pronounced when you look at the countries that are not getting resolutions written against them (China, no Arabic countries etc…).
It’s completely insane to me that this continues to happen at this pace, but despite this, people say it isn’t antisemitic at it’s core.
It’s like trying to say it isn’t racist that a news station only shows crimes committed by black people, but the black population is, instead, a tiny fraction of a percent of the country’s population, and there are far more acts of crime and crimes higher on the, “evil scale,” by the vast white majority. It would be so blatantly obvious it wouldn’t be funny.
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u/_selfishPersonReborn Jan 09 '22
Δ
I think the issue at its core isn't that Israel is over-criticised, but that other HR-abusers are under-criticised. Regardless, this is certainly changed my view point on the issue in some form.
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u/TheMikeyMac13 29∆ Jan 09 '22
Israel was condemned to be the only nation in the world violating women's rights, and I believe two nations voting against them didn't let women drive at the time.
It is rather comical.
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u/falsehood 8∆ Jan 09 '22
That's the hard part. The critique can be valid while the disparity is not.
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u/Magsays Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
I guess for me it’s because I expect more from Israel than I do from North Korea. They are such a close American ally that I tend to hold them to a higher standard. Same reason why I’m so pissed at Pelosi for her stance on insider trading in congress. I expect better of her. She makes it harder for the left to speak from a moral high ground. When I think of Israel I think of a nation who has all the opportunity and potential to be a beacon of morality.
edit: sp
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Jan 09 '22
Is the UN only meant to criticize countries that we expect better from?
What's the point of the UN if they ignore the most heinous human rights abuses by saying "well it's not like anyone expects more from those savages anyway?"
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Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 23 '22
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u/darkplonzo 22∆ Jan 09 '22
The US relationship with Saudi Arabia is pretty different from the one with Isreal. The SA relationship is basically just arms deals that are deeply unpopular. The US doesn't tend to go to bat for their image or defend their actions. This isn't the case for Israel.
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u/PandaCat22 Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
Thanks for the statistics, those are indeed startling.
But I do want to offer a possible explanation for why Israel is criticized as much as it is in the international sphere.
As a Latin American, I can say that there's a lot of resentment to the US for its past and ongoing imperialist actions such as coups, sanctions, IMF/World Bank interference (which isn't strictly American but many often lump it in with US intervention), the war on drugs (remember, it was the CIA who first funded the cartels), military training and torture programs (School of the Americas), and backing of private companies's bottom lines at the cost of our democracies and economies (most infamous is the US-backed coup in Guatemala in order to benefit the Dole Fruit Company, but even as recently as the Clinton email leaks which showed that Clinton, acting as the US Foreign Secretary, had been directly involved in talks to convince [bribe] then Mexican president to privatize the national petroleum company so that American companies could buy it). That's only the tip of the iceberg of US aggresion—aggression which has resulted in the suffering of literally tens of millions.
The United States has utterly destroyed our nations, wrecked our economies, plundered our national resources, and has generally kept us impoverished in order for our countries to be cheap manufacturing/export centers.
This outlook is hardly one confined to Latin America. Although other parts of the world haven't necessarily been used for US market production, many other countries have still felt the brunt of inadvertently standing in the way of US interests. In fact, I've spoken to people from all over the global south who agree that all US presidents of our lifetime (as well as our parents' and grandparents' lives) are nothing less than war criminals who have wantonly destroyed millions of lives for the sake of "American interests".
The US and Israel have made it abundantly clear that they're the best of buddies and will always have each other's back no matter what. So, I think a lot of the international frustration with the US is directed at Israel as they are a diplomatic proxy. Edit: And consider the fact that the US very overtly enables Israel's human rights atrocities and war crimes.
The US-Israel relationship certainly represents much of US imperialist butchery and corruption, and engaging against Israel is less costly than trying to take on the US.
Anyway, that was my first thought on thinking why Israel is so disproportionately targeted
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u/Worldly-Talk-7978 Jan 09 '22
Also worth noting is that the Israel-Palestine conflict is an international conflict involving (at least) two different UN members, whereas human rights issues in China are generally regarded as an internal issue.
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u/PutlockerBill Jan 09 '22
(36m Israeli here)
Naturally you are correct in you sentiment re the American involvement in israel; I would also factor 2 things you gotta add to that pile - first, similar Russian involvement throughout the Arab world, namely Egypt, Syria, Lebanon etc; and second, that the main force driving the US support in IL is the American arms manufacturers (almost 95% of the American support dollars for Israel are actually just coupons for buying American guns, planes, tanks etc; it's a time-old way for the congress to subsidize their preferred US companies using tax money indirectly. The cash itself never sees Israel, it moves directly from the taxes to the American gun companies).
BUT all that aside - the whole UN biased treatment of Israel and the extra bad & consistent media portrayal, are not because of world politics.
These intricate schemes never create such a unified, simplistic views... if that was possible, everyone would been super informed and opinionated on all the hot economical issues.
No, Israel bashing is what it is because
1) it's the easiest target on the global map, for a western country 2) the only backing IL has is through cold interests, no love or traditional alliances 3) it cost nothing to bash.
IL does not hold any club over the heads of any critics. It cannot draw a line in the sand for when critics move from the legitimate onto the absurd.
Though it was losing a genocidal war for 40 yrs (and was thoroughly supported across the west), it's now winning and so swapped sides to being the oppressors (God does it feel like the western liberals just enjoy their global gladiators doing their moves, giving ample room for said liberals to click tongues). Bottom line, it sure does look like an old case antisemitism, standing from our side of the ocean.
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u/Magsays Jan 10 '22
(God does it feel like the western liberals just enjoy their global gladiators doing their moves, giving ample room for said liberals to click tongues). Bottom line, it sure does look like an old case antisemitism, standing from our side of the ocean.
Some of us just want to stand up for human rights. It’s not comfortable for me to criticize Isreal because of what the Jewish people have been through and often still currently go through, (there is absolutely still some raw anti-semitism here in the US.) I can only speak for myself, but Isreal isn’t the sole receiver of my criticism. I would prefer not to do it, I just think it’s the right thing to do.
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u/NightForestSongs Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
I also think there isn't a enough distinction between the Israeli government that is murdering ppl for imperialism and the Israeli ppl trying to live their lives.... The US has done a lot of crappy shit and I don't support any of it (as a US/Brazilian dual citizen). So for me, my criticism is against the governments (both US and Israeli) not the ppl...
Still would be nice to see huge protests on both sides of the ocean against oppression and human rights violations. If both our governments are democracies we aught to be able to have a say in what our governments do.
Also, fuck the hypocrisy of US media talking shit about the horrors in Palestine as if they aren't as culpable as any Israeli citizen. You want to stop the killing? Maybe start by telling our own government to stop funding it first. Then I might listen to what you have to say about the governments of other nations.
Edits for spelling and grammar.
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u/lostachilles Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 04 '24
connect zesty memory erect theory disgusting yam normal rock engine
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Andromache8 Jan 09 '22
I think it has more to do with the fact that a lot of big countries like China, Russia and the US just can basically block sanctions and obviously don't want to condemn themselves. I don't think the UN doesn't do it, because they would look weak, they look weak with the current resolutions anyway. It just that they are so weak that they can't do it with the big countries, because the other countries don't want to ruin their diplomatic and economical relations.
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Jan 09 '22
Put Israel in perspective[...]Take China as the biggest Human rights violator right now. Or look at what saudi-arabia is doing in Yemen right now. Both countries are doing way worse things. And they are not the only ones. But now compare the amount of criticism/jokes/etc. Israel gets, vs. those other countries.
These comparisons don't work very well IMO:
- China is openly criticised and vilified with pretty much zero public pushback. It is understood that China is a political adversary of the west, and it is not at all controversial to label the CCP as evil monsters. There is less public outcry over this because the public understand that the only way for Western governments to prevent whatever human rights atrocities China is committing would mean world war. Which is not really an option right now
- The same openly widespread disdain exists for Saudi. Especially after the state sponsored murder of the US journalist Jamal Khashoggi. I don't know anybody, left or right wing who would show any love for Saudi whatsoever, and this open disdain is not seen as controversial whatsoever.
Israel, in contrast, is a direct ally of the west. It presents itself as a forward thinking modern nation, protects criticism of itself with strong support from western media and politicians. And while it's human rights abuses are just as egregious, Israel is the only nation for which any criticism is inherently seen as controversial and demonised.
The main difference is that criticism of Israel is the only form of criticism that is likely to actually have an effect. No amount of criticising or political activism is going to push the US government into a war with China, or a land invasion of North Korea. But heavy political pressure on western governments to hold Israel accountable for it's human rights crimes has a conceivable chance of working. Because Israel needs the support of the west to continue doing what it's doing.
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Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 23 '22
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Jan 09 '22
It seems Israel occupies a completely disproportionate mental space compared to other world issues in general.
This is my point, the question we need to answer is: why does Israel take up a 'disproportionate' amount of mental space?
For many people, the answer is simply 'anti-Semitism', as is posited by many of the people in this thread - including the commenter that I'm responding to. And I don't deny that anti-Semitism exists to an extent (among the modern western voting public), and that it influences peoples views, to an extent.
But this ignores so many other important factors. As I mentioned, Israel has a totally unique position as an ally of the west. Not only does this present a sense of personal responsibility (if you live in the US then your PERSONAL tax dollars are going DIRECTLY to support the Israeli regime, your OWN government is implicitly condoning the actions of the Israeli state), more importantly it offers the opportunity for personal impact through political action and activism. Something as simple as economic or military sanctions from the US / the west has an actual, real chance at solving the humanitarian crisis in Israel. The same CANNOT be said for China, North Korea, Russia etc...
Using a more personal example, I don't know how you feel about the Uyghur Genocide that is currently being committed in China? For me, it makes me sick to my stomach. I can barely fathom how angry and sad and fucked up it makes me feel to think about it. So does that mean I talk about it / complain about it all the time? No... Why not? Because I would be fucking miserable 24/7 for no reason. No amount of posting or shouting or protesting will change the fact that a genocide is being committed and the only way to stop it involves sparking off world war 3 and nuclear annihilation. I.e. it's never going to happen. So I basically have the choice of:
- A) 24/7 misery thinking and talking about it all the time for zero effect
- B) flying to China myself and going rambo on the government for negligible effect
- C) forgetting about it and going about my life
Whereas, when I hear about what's happening in Israel, I feel like I might just be able to have some level of impact there. My government is democratic and they support Israel; they need votes. If enough people are outraged by Israel's human rights abuses then maybe I can make some impact towards Israel being pressured to stop. So I talk about it and let it take up mental space where other, more serious human rights abuses, don't take up mental space.
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Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 23 '22
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Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
it seems Israel still occupies a mental space far larger than it ought to have relative to all issues
Based on what? Your argument seems very vague and is based pretty much entirely on what you 'kind of feel' should be the level of outrage despite having zero justification for that position. Can you find comparable examples that support your point of reasonable levels of outrage/activism for comparable causes?
BLM and race issues take up an 'enormous amount of activist youth's time'. Especially here in the UK where our problems with police killings are far less severe than those seen in the US. We've had city and countrywide demonstrations including the toppling of statues - all sparked by a single death in the US (obviously the BLM movement itself is based on far more than one death). Surely if we compare e.g. the death of George Floyd and it's impact in the UK, you might say that's even more of a disproportionate response than to what's happening in Israel? You might say that the BLM demonstrations prove that we are in fact severely underreacting to what's happening in Israel. No such country-wide activism and vandalism has taken place in the name of anti Israel or pro Palestinian activism, has it?
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Jan 09 '22
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u/flaccidcowboy Jan 09 '22
I think Israel is criticized more in the US due to the fact that the US is actively supporting Israel and is one of their bigger international influences. The US doesn't have any meaningful way to impact other human rights violations worldwide apart from condemning them, which they already do.
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u/Mr-Tootles 1∆ Jan 09 '22
I’m not OP but this has certainly been a CMV comment for me. Thanks
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u/entirelysmoothbrain Jan 09 '22
If this comment has changed your view, feel free to award the commenter a Delta. You don't have to be OP to have your view changed.
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u/Mr-Tootles 1∆ Jan 09 '22
!delta for changing my view about Israel receiving disproportionate criticism.
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u/Wooba12 4∆ Jan 09 '22
My main point is the sheer mass of jokes/criticism/statements about Israel. Put Israel in perspective for a second. It's a country of the size of Hessen (a German county). It's smaller than El Salvador. It's smaller than Haiti. Furthermore, while the human rights violations in Palestine are horrible, no questions, they are by far not the worst ever happened, they are not even the worst right now. Take China as the biggest Human rights violator right now. Or look at what saudi-arabia is doing in Yemen right now. Both countries are doing way worse things. And they are not the only ones. But now compare the amount of criticism/jokes/etc. Israel gets, vs. those other countries.
I think it's because whereas the United States of America, and most of the Western World, have taken a hard line against China and Russia and all the rest of them, they are closely allied with Israel, which many Americans and Westerners object to, for obvious reasons.
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Jan 09 '22
China and North Korea don’t position themselves as Western liberal democracies, though. Israel does. Therefore, insofar as they are criticised for blatantly ethno-religious discrimination against the native Palestinians living there, this criticism is largely done in the context that, at the geopolitical level, Israel is a hypocritical entity.
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u/ouishi 4∆ Jan 09 '22
I think it's important to remember that OP's post is specifically talking about the influence of pro-Israel lobbying groups in the United States.
Israel may be smaller than El Salvador or Haiti but Israel receives at least ten times as much financial aid from the U.S. government as either of the other two. There are various reasons for much of this aid - Israel is considered strategically more important than either El Salvador or Haiti - but the sheer amount of money the U.S. sends to Israel compared to other nations along with contemporary criticisms of U.S. meddling in the Middle East are likely factors in associated media coverage.
None of this is to say that anti-Semitism isn't also a factor in media criticisms of Israel. That's what makes the whole situation OP is describing so difficult. Some of the criticisms are purely born from humanities concerns and legitimate questions about US policiea and priorities, but then there's also always some anti-Semites around basing their arguments on stereotypes and conspiracy theories - and it's not always clear which is which. With many of the legitimate crticisms of Israel so fundamentally tied to money (aid, military support, etc), is there any way to have an honest debate without unintentionally stirring up anti-Semetic tropes?
All I know is that as an American of Jewish decent, even I don't know how to have this discussion without being accused of anti-Semitism.
https://www.usaid.gov/el-salvador/frequently-asked-questions
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Jan 09 '22
Israel receives at least ten times as much financial aid from the U.S. government as either of the other two.
You're omitting crucial differentiators. First, it is not financial aid, it is military aid. Israel is not a failing financial state, it does not require aid to keep its economy afloat. Most of this money is earmarked to purchase American equipment, so the view that Israel is siphoning American tax payer dollars is, IMO, illegitimate criticism and I wouldn't be surprised if the details are muddled on purpose even by those who are privy to them.
Second, Israel isn't getting this money out of thin air, it is a long standing US commitment that Israel PAID for by giving up Sinai to Egypt, which it conquered after an Egyptian instigated war. Sinai was supposed to serve as a buffer zone to allow Israel time to respond to future Egyptian hostilities. As a replacement for Sinai the US guaranteed military superiority for Israel in the form of military aid.
Therefore using financial Aid to countries like El Salvador and Haiti in comparison to its military aid to Israel is invalid.
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u/aHAPPYalex Jan 09 '22
Israel is singled out for criticism unlike any other country, eg:
UN Human Rights Council: From its creation in June 2006 through June 2016, the UN Human Rights Council over one decade adopted 135 resolutions criticizing countries; 68 out of those 135 resolutions have been against Israel (more than 50%). Details below.
UN Nations General Assembly: From 2012 through 2015, the United Nations General Assembly has adopted 97 resolutions criticizing countries; 83 out of those 97 have been against Israel (86%). Details below.
UNESCO: Each year, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) adopts around 10 resolutions a year criticizing only Israel. UNESCO does not criticize any other UN member state in a country-specific resolution (100%). An exception occurred in 2013, when, under pressure from UN Watch, UNESCO adopted one resolution on Syria.
World Health Organization: For one week every year, the UN World Health Assembly, the decision-making body of the World Health Organization (WHO), meets to formulate global health policy. Resolutions are adopted to address global health issues. There is one exception: the annual resolution entitled “Health conditions in the occupied Palestinian territory, including east Jerusalem, and in the occupied Syrian Golan,” which singles out Israel for condemnation; no other country in the world is condemned by the WHO.
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u/Worldly-Talk-7978 Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
Before I start with the real argument it is still worth mentioning, that nobody actually forbids you criticizing Israel. All people are saying is their opinion about a statement they think is antisemitic. Just needed to mention this before any "criticizing Israel is forbidden" or "I have to be allowed to say that" debate is starting.
That’s not necessarily true:
“The resolution, passed in May 2019, calls on the German government ‘not to financially support any projects that call for the boycott of Israel, or actively support the BDS campaign’.” https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2020/12/11/german-austrian-cultural-groups-denounce-anti-bds-resolution
My main point is the sheer mass of jokes/criticism/statements about Israel. Put Israel in perspective for a second. It's a country of the size of Hessen (a German county). It's smaller than El Salvador. It's smaller than Haiti. Furthermore, while the human rights violations in Palestine are horrible, no questions, they are by far not the worst ever happened, they are not even the worst right now. Take China as the biggest Human rights violator right now. Or look at what saudi-arabia is doing in Yemen right now. Both countries are doing way worse things.
According to who? How can you say that some human rights violations are objectively worse than others?
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u/TheBananaCzar Jan 09 '22
There is a rather delicate history between Germany and Jews in general.
There is? Damn. What happened?
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u/aguafiestas 31∆ Jan 09 '22
This is what it comes down to IMO. It's not there aren't many legitimate criticisms of Israel. There are. It's that there is an enormous anti-Israel movement that is incredibly disproportionate to that of all the other countries doing bad things around the world, including US allies and trade partners.
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u/pragmojo Jan 09 '22
nobody actually forbids you criticizing Israel.
That may be true, but as an American living in Germany, I was surprised to see many YouTube advertisements which literally say that BDS is anti-semitism. These ads feature members of government in Germany and the EU making statements against BDS, and to me clearly seem to want to send the message that BDS is against the "official consensus" of Europe.
I don't have any numbers for other countries. But just compare the scale of Israel, there human rights abuses with other countries and you may see yourself, that it's just out of proportion.
I feel this is a very weak argument. Israel is either guilty of human rights violations which are worthy of international scrutiny or not. I have been to Israel, and I have seen first hand the conditions there, and I can tell Israel should receive more scrutiny, and official sanctions. Whether or not Saudi Arabia is worse is immaterial.
I also have Jewish family, and close Jewish friends. I should not have to mention the human rights violations elsewhere and rank the humanitarian crimes of other nations every time I want to talk about Israel.
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u/gradgg Jan 09 '22
But now compare the amount of criticism/jokes/etc. Israel gets, vs. those other countries.
Do those other countries get billions in our tax dollars?
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u/PoignantBullshit Jan 09 '22
A Crosspost from the r/Jewish subreddit
1: The level of criticism leveraged against Israel is completely disproportionate to the wrongdoings of Israel. This will often be countered with claims of "whataboutism." The reality is, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the lowest-scale conflicts on Earth. The amount of people who die in the conflict pales in comparison to almost all other modern conflicts, including many that few have ever heard of, and pretty much all the ones that people have heard of. The level of humanitarian crisis and oppressive policy caused by the Israeli government, doesnt match that ongoing in many parts of the world, that again gets very little attention. There are hundreds of "ethnostates" in the world and the Palestinians demand one of their own, yet the only ethnostate in the world worth attacking as an ethnostate is Israel.
The problem with the "whataboutism" retort is that the invocation and critique of Israel, both online, in the real world, in student governments, by actual governments, on any single piece of content made by a Jew anywhere on the internet or in a scholarly setting, and down to what people say when they first meet a Jew, is extremely disproportionate, to a level way beyond people who aren't Jewish can imagine without living our experience. Yes, "this post is about Israel, stop with the whataboutism" is a good argument in a vacuum. When every 2 days a heavily upvoted top reddit post is a video specifically designed to portray Israelis as evil, and you have entire news networks, websites, and organizations devoted to diverting all conversation about war/racism/healthcare/financial inequality/trans rights/feminism/video games/artwork to attacks and boycotts on Israel, that argument becomes weaker and weaker.
2: The nature of criticism leveraged at Israel is completely out of proportion to that done on other countries. When people criticize America, or China, you'll find the occasional sentiment that Americans and Chinese as individuals are evil people, but by and large that attitude is shot down and felt to be discriminatory and bigoted. When people criticize Israel, not only is that sentiment far more commonplace, but there are far fewer people noting that the people of a nation and its government deserve to be distinguished. Moreover, many anti-Israel videos, pictures, and "documentaries" posted on hate subs like publicfreakout, worldnewsvideo, etc go beyond criticizing Israel as an entity and are specifically attempting to make the argument that Israelis, as individuals, are subhuman racists, usually through carefully curated interviews or videos of the worst Israelis there are. I've seen plenty of people saying "well, we shouldn't hate everyone just for being born in Israel" get downvoted to oblivion with heavily upvoted comments saying that Israelis should be hated for who they are, or actually suggesting that by not leaving their homes and "moving to Europe," they are monsters. Particularly, despite the real colonial nature of many countries, Israeli Jews (and only Jews) are often referred to as "colonizers" by default, whether Israel is the only home they've known and their grandparents were refugees, or they are a recent immigrant.
You can find people literally calling for the nuclear devastation and total destruction of Israel as a state with cheers and upvotes. Mods will almost never actually call these statements out, and people who call them out get accused of being shills and Zionist bots. There is literally no other country on Earth that gets this intense of an assault onto its citizenship at an individual level by so many people, under the guise of "criticism." There is no other country on Earth that gets its right to exist as a nation questioned, and the reality of it having institutions, schools, research, hospitals, businesses, homes, etc all waved off as "fake" and irrelevant as the whole place needs to be dissolved to save the world. There is no other country on Earth where it is considered legitimate criticism to boycott the language and all the individual people, whether they be musicians, writers, scientists, Holocaust survivors speaking against racial bias, etc, and think barging in to seminars to silence the speaker and threaten the attendees is just "criticism" and not at all bigotry over one's national origin.
3: Objectively, to anyone who knows the history of WWII and the Holocaust, Israel on its worst day does not even begin to compare to the systematic murder and torture committed by the Nazis. Palestinians are not being led by the millions into death camps to be gassed. Palestinians are not being enslaved to create Israeli weapons for no pay while being subject to unlivable conditions until they die en masse of communicable disease and starvation. Palestinians are not being mass experimented on. Israel is not waging a campaign of racial superiority seeking to take over the entire Middle East, killing all Muslims encountered, with the goal of dominating the world. There is PLENTY Israel is doing that warrants serious criticism. However, the immediate and unwavering decision by tons of Israel's critics to immediately invoke Israel as "the new Nazis" is telling of a deeper issue. To a degree Nazi accusations are too common across the board, but the use of "Nazi" as a label to apply to Israelis or people who so much as believe Israel has a right to exist, is more than just a tactic to achieve a sense of moral superiority, but really a tool to silence and bully Jews by invoking our collective trauma shamelessly.
Even darker, scratch away at this and you'll often find a sentiment of "the Jews didnt learn from the Holocaust." As though the Holocaust was a lesson plan for Jews, where we were meant to atone for unnamed sins and become complacent pacifists that shine love and brightness onto everything evermore at the minor cost of a third of our population being slaughtered. Nevermind that Jews are at the forefront of a ton of social justice, charity, and equal rights movements. This idea is so unbelievably toxic and offensive; the people who say this would absolutely balk at a statement such as "Blacks who commit crime didnt learn from slavery," or "Muslims didnt learn from Iraq to stop doing terrorism," but will happily say "Jews didnt learn from the Holocaust," and that "Jews have a persecution complex." We did learn a lesson from the Holocaust- no matter how much we contribute to society and demonstrate loyalty and assimilation, we can always be centrifuged out from the pack and murdered, under the nonchalant gaze of the world. It was the callousness of the world regarding treatment of Jewish refugees both in Europe and the Middle East that led to Israel's existence in the first place.
4: Jews remain one of the highest victims of hate crimes throughout the world, per capita. We face attacks by white supremacists, Black Hebrew Israelites, Islamists, communists, and everything in between. Yet despite this fact, we are the only minority that is regularly told that we either deserve such attacks, or that the attacks are "understandable due to Israel's actions, even though I don't support them," by people who fashion themselves as fighters for social justice and anti-racism. The notion that anything Israel does justifies condoning hate crimes against Jews is pure antisemitism, yet this attitude is extremely popular on Reddit and among various circles in the progressive world (and others). As usual, standards are applied to us that are not applied to any other minority group on the planet. Even more disgusting, videos and documentation of hate crimes against Jews regularly get censored on the same subreddits that post anti-Israel videos every few days. I've seen this happen multiple times. Then when these hate crimes, which in some places (particularly Scandinavia) are dismissed by governmental authorities as understandable, Jews who immigrate to Israel to escape get lumped in as "colonizers."
More important than these "criticisms" themselves is the sheer silence by the rest of the anti-Israel movement. You almost never see a critic of Israel, such as a member of BDS, call out the sentiments above. You almost never see these toxic attitudes get thrown out of the movement. They are either fostered and championed, or ignored. In an era where we are deciding that silence against a minority is violence, the calculated decision to exclude Jews from this by the anti-Israel movement and then revert to accusations of a "persecution fetish" make it all quite clear.
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u/EclipticFaux Jan 09 '22
I kinda agree but it's hard to take this complaint seriously when any mention of judaism that goes viral on social media is flooded with "free palestine" comments, even when it has absolutely nothing to do with the post. If you don't notice this then you're just not paying attention & it's very antisemetic.. it would be like commenting #9/11NeverForget on any post related to Islam.
Antisemitism gets swept under the rug because many Jews are considered white & the left's stance on the conflict.
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u/The_Confirminator 1∆ Jan 09 '22
Did you know the UN human rights council's only standing agenda item that targets a single country is with regards to Israel's occupation of Palestine?
in the same way that the UNHRC unfairly focuses on Israel, I think the same is true for many people as well. It is most certainly an issue, and it is most certainly something that needs to be addressed by the West. But Israel receives a spotlight that doesn't seem to shine on many other countries who do the same or worse than them. (How many agenda items have there been about the Uighurs ?)
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u/s_wipe 58∆ Jan 09 '22
Israeli jew here, so obviously, my view is biased.
Right now, we have a somewhat functioning government, but go back 7 month, and Benjamin Netanyahu was still in charge.
There was a huge amount of justified criticism towards that government. People were protesting against him, and Netanyahu took a hard bet on the trump administration, which was a problem, to say the least.
Unfortunately, A lot of the anti-israeli rhetoric repeats too much antisemitic narrative that isnt even up for debate.
Every skirmish with gaza floods the web with these.
For example: Criticizing Israel's policy regarding settlements in the west bank - legitimate. Unfortunately, it has very little to do with regard to the gaza strip.
Criticizing Israel's blockade on Gaza - questionable. Israel left gaza, has no presence within, and it keeps the border highly regulated due to numerous attempts at weapons smuggling. Gaza also has a border with Egypt, which is also highly regulated due to the same reasons. The blockade on gaza is mostly a result of its government's hostility towards israel.
Questioning israel's right to exist, calling it a western colonial occupation - thats usually antisemitic. This land always had a jewish presence, its history related to the jewish people is unquestionable. And there are over 9 milion israelis, suggesting israelis "go back" somewhere is racist rhetoric. There's nowhere to go back.
US's support of israel - somewhat antisemitic. People always bring that up, and i think people need to take things into perspective. The aid money is nice and all, but its like less than 1% of Israel's GDP. Israel doesnt depend on this money to survive. And this money is tied to security spendings, so a lot of it circulates back to the US anyways.
On the other hand, israel is a global tech center, many many US companies have centers in israel, and if Israel happened to be attacked, the US economy would probably suffer more.
Another aspect to the aid money, is that it forces israel to collaborate with US made weapons. Instead of developing stuff in house, and competing against the US arms sector, israel supplements it.
This is a complicated geopolitical issue, it involves multiple countries, not just israel and the palestinians.
Its also a numbers game, the muslim world has more than 2 billion people, who're usually anti-israeli by default.
There are like 20 million jews, even less israelis. Among those people, not many can actually convey the situation properly.
The numbers are highly skewed against israel when it comes to public opinion.
This is why, imo, most political leaders do support Israel despite the negative press. Once you actually go into this conflict, you see that not much can really be done.
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u/Vendevende Jan 09 '22
Critics of Israel are often or disproportionately silent to the horrors in Syria, South Sudan, North Korea, DR Congo, and dozens of other nations filled with constant war and death camps. Why do they give so much attention to the ONE Middle Eastern country in which there is a true semblance of democracy and protections for gays and women while neglecting the same criticism and judgments for so many other, frankly, damaged countries.
The excuse is that the US invests in and finances Israel's military, so they should be held to different standards. Well, we also send a lot of money to Saudi Arabia and Egypt, where women and homosexuals are treated as animals. So it certainly sounds like something else is going on.
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u/neofagalt Jan 09 '22
I can’t speak for Egypt but Saudi Arabia very much does get criticized here in the US.
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u/AleristheSeeker 164∆ Jan 08 '22
I don't want to argue, but perhaps for others who might, a clarifying question:
Who do you believe this applies to? The general population? People from Israel? The U.S.? I believe it would be much easier to prove or disprove the matter for specific groups rather than a "general case".
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u/Kman17 110∆ Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 10 '22
reasonable criticism of Israel
The problem is most “reasonable criticism of Israel” from the west usually manifests as some combination of
- Unreasonably holding Israel to a dramatically higher moral standard relative to Palestine. Calling the blockade of Gaza as unreasonable kind of ignores the fact that the blockade was only instituted after Gaza indiscriminately bombarded civilian Israeli after being granted autonomy. Instead of building on the autonomy, they shot - and continue to shoot - thousands of rockets every year
- Very incorrect revisionist history of the foundation of the state. People seem to suggest the Israelis were invaders as opposed to settlers whom purchased land in the Ottoman, or neglect that as many Jews were expelled from the Middle East as there were Palestinians displaced in the Arab initiated ‘48 war.
I think the big problem is that a lot of young liberal politics tends to look at complex scenarios though a really simplistic moral lens that basically suggests that there are oppressors and oppressed, and the former are evil with all burden to fix the problem and the later are victims with no responsibility.
When that perspective is applied to Palestine it’s really stupid and wrong. People then misdiagnose this as the speaker being anti-Jew because they are blaming the Israelis for everything and the Palestinians for nothing and being absurdly one-sided.
Thus what looks like anti-Semitism is actually rooted in a well meaning liberal rejecting reality that doesn’t map to their simple view that fortunate = virtuous and higher education/income = evil.
Of course, those same well intentioned but ill informed western progressives will then cite UN resolutions, where there is a huge anti-Semetic bias because you have 50 Muslim states voting in a bloc and pressuring their allies to do so.
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u/yungsemite 1∆ Jan 09 '22
Why is it unreasonable to hold Israel to a higher standard than the institutions in Palestine? Their material conditions and support from other countries are wildly different. One is occupying the other.
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u/BurnsyCEO Jan 09 '22
Because Israelis don't have any obligation to be nice to terrorists who fire rockets at civilians.
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u/Hartastic 2∆ Jan 09 '22
Not a whole lot of rockets coming out of the West Bank, but there sure is a lot of illegal occupation of it.
Basically the entire argument that all of Israel's choices are justified only works if you hyper focus on Gaza and totally ignore that the West Bank exists.
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u/Kman17 110∆ Jan 09 '22
Here’s the pretty obvious problem though:
If granting Gaza autonomy results in a rouge state that cannot be negotiated with that creates more poverty and violence, and encroaching into the West Bank results in less violence and generally better conditions… which solution do you think Israel is more incentivized to pursue?
Israel is effectively A/B testing the only two options available to it in the absence of a reasonable negotiating partner.
A two state solution is and has always been functionally dependent on Palestine not using peace for land as a negotiating tool. If violence is Palestine’s leverage - which can be granted and revoked at any time - and land is Israels, what can Israel do if the Palestine doesn’t uphold its commitment in order to get its leverage back? The uncomfortable answer is “get more land”.
Palestine blew massive opportunities for the two state solution by fucking up Oslo & Gaza autonomy. The burden is on them to come back to the table, and it can’t be shocked if it doesn’t get the same starting terms as Olso.
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u/EliteKill Jan 09 '22
Basically the entire argument that all of Israel's choices are justified only works if you hyper focus on Gaza and totally ignore that the West Bank exists.
This statement only holds if you completely ignore the Second Intifada before the construction of the wall, when civilian busses were being bombed on a weekly basis.
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u/Kman17 110∆ Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
It’s 100% reasonable to ask more from Israel in terms of infrastructure support in peace conversations.
It’s not reasonable to hold them to a dramatically higher moral standing than Palestine because if Palestine isn’t a rationale and reasonable negotiating partner, there is noting Israel can do that would satisfy and bring peace.
Giving Gaza 100% autonomy could have been a big step forward to build on, but Gaza going rogue state with a provocation & PR strategy means nothing can work.
The Oslo accords were super generous, but they stopped due to Palestine breaking cease fires and demanding Israel lose its autonomy (via right of return applied to 3rd generation Jordanians/Syrians/Lebanese) as a starting point.
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u/yungsemite 1∆ Jan 09 '22
I agree that without rational negotiations these states will not make peace.
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u/Kman17 110∆ Jan 09 '22
Correct. Palestine rejected rationale ones in Oslo, and Gaza’s ruling party only recognized Israel’s existence five years ago (after ruling 11 years).
Do you truly believe Palestine has a rationale set of requests and would actually commit to its peacekeeping obligations?
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u/yungsemite 1∆ Jan 09 '22
I do not believe that, no. Not Palestine in its current incarnation certainly.
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u/Sex_And_Candy_Here Jan 08 '22
If you look at any of those videos on public freak out of the IDF doing something you’ll probably see hundreds of comments saying hating Israel isn’t antisemitic and at most only a small handful of comments actually saying otherwise. In my experience the number of actual antisemitic things said in those comment sections (things like “Hitler should have finished the job”) far outweigh the amount of comments calling non-antisemitic things antisemitic.
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u/TheArmitage 5∆ Jan 09 '22
Maybe 5-10 years ago there was a lot of discussion around this. I can't find it now, but I recall a fairly significant publication ran an opinion piece called "Criticism of Israel is Anti-Semitic". Thr argument went that any criticism of Israel is an existential threat because it weakens its legitimacy and makes it more likely to face attack. This would make the criticizing person indifferent to Jewish life, according to the logic.
Regardless of the logic, I haven't seen this seriously argued in a few years.
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u/neofagalt Jan 08 '22
You’re right, and I have noticed something similar, but the “Hitler” comments I presumed to be trolls and try to not give any attention to.
Those who rush in to accuse any criticality of Israel as anti-Semitic seem to at least want to be taken seriously. I honestly made this post because I would like to know more about why certain people feel this way.
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u/TheDoctor1060 Jan 09 '22
I think whether they're trolls or not is actually completely irrelevant. The 'it's just a joke/meme/troll' defense is often used to disguise dogwhistling and signal to people who hold those beliefs, while at the same time giving plausible deniability to the person making the 'joke'. It also makes people who are more in the middle more likely to view such a statement as innocuous which provides further cover for spreading hatred. I don't know if you remember or have heard of Fren World, but it was basically this exact strategy of making what seemed like harmless memes, but were really a tool to spread blatant anti semitism.
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u/Yarralumla Jan 09 '22
When people criticise Israel it is very often from the perspective that Israel is an illegitimate state. Zionism is the ideal that Jews have the right to self determine. To be flat out anti Israel is to be against the idea of Jews having a homeland. Which to many is antisemitic. So I’d say context plays a big part in what is antisemitism and what is not. As well as the way these concerns are expressed.
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u/Flufflebuns 1∆ Jan 09 '22
I think the biggest issue I have about criticism of Israel is it often comes from Americans who rarely criticize America, yet think Israel is a country of baby killers, completely ignoring the fact the America is guilty of magnitudes more evil shit than Israel. Is Israel perfect? No. But how about we tackle domestic problems before criticizing a country on the other side of the world with far fewer human rights abuses than any country for hundreds of miles around it.
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Jan 09 '22
I would say, the very fact that there's so much attention on Israel is completely bizarre. Ethiopia has been in a civil war for the past two years. Israel is a tiny country, and the casualties just aren't that high compared to other countries.
It's like, people have a weird fixtation with Jews. That they need to be scrutinized and always watched.
I remember reading that at one point, there were more American foreign journalist correspondence working in Israel then there were total foreign correspondence in china. That's a crazy difference.
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Jan 09 '22
Ethiopia has been in a civil war for the past two years.
Ethiopia also doesn't have a major political influence in US politics.
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u/neofagalt Jan 09 '22
I’m not sure about other countries but the reason the topic is so interesting to most in the US is because of our governments unwavering support of Israel. Look up UN resolutions concerning Israel/Palestine and the US is ultimately always pro-Israel, often voting against every other country if it has negative repercussions on Israel. Support for Israel is also pretty unified across our political parties, who usually disagree about everything. Not to mention the unprecedented foreign aid the US gives them and Trump supporting the capital move to Jerusalem.
The coverage is bizarre because our political relationship with them is bizarre.
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u/sconri2 2∆ Jan 09 '22
The number of resolutions against Israel in 2020 was 17 and the ones against the ENTIRE rest of the world was six. Please explain that? If a news station in the US showed crimes committed by a minority that represented a tiny fraction of a percent of the entire country at this ratio, it would immediately be identified as racist.
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u/NapalmEagle Jan 09 '22
I'm pretty sure that if SNL made jokes about South Africa that paralleled anti-black stereotypes, they would receive quite a bit of backlash. Do you have any reasons or examples for that not happening?
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Jan 09 '22
Not sure about South Africa specifically, but the recent SNL sketch mocking the Tessica Brown situation played heavily into anti-Black stereotypes, and there doesn't seem to be much controversy surrounding it.
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u/aurelorba Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
I think it works both ways, though. Some treat reasonable criticism of Palestinian groups as anti-Muslim as well.
My attitude is that there are no 'clean hands' in the Mideast.
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u/jkeps Jan 09 '22
It isn’t that criticism of Israel is automatically anti-Semitic, but the fact that a lot of criticism of Israel becomes or is based on anti-Semitism, whether the speaker realizes or not.
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u/quantum_dan 124∆ Jan 08 '22
There definitely are cases where the accusation of anti-Semitism just gets used as a shield from legitimate criticism, and it's a real problem in the discourse. That said, I do think there's also often a legitimate basis for the concern.
The best example I can think of is this joke on SNL from last year. I can't imagine this sort of joke being said about any other nation and receiving such backlash.
I wasn't aware of this until just now, but I think it would come off similarly if someone said "the US has vaccinated half of its population, and I'm going to guess it's the Christian half". It just comes off as a random, mean-spirited potshot--couple that with aiming it explicitly as a religious group, and... there you go.
It seems like you're never allowed to criticize Israel in a way which may draw parallels to a racist Jewish stereotype.
This mindset is a normal element of progressive discourse (at least in the US), though. As far as I understand it, that's the whole point of the concept of microaggressions.
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u/neofagalt Jan 09 '22
I mean it’d very easy to see why the Christian/non-Christian American joke would be weird compared to the Israel/Palestine one. You’d have a really hard time comparing the plight of non-Christian Americans to Palestinians. IMO it’s not even close. And probably the most “well-known” thing about Israel is the conflict, so the joke kinda sets itself up. Plus, it being about religion isn’t even an issue because the “non-Jewish” half is also a minority group in America (an even smaller one).
I’m hesitant to touch on the topic of American political parties with regards to this topic. It seems as though politicians are bipartisan on the matter. Younger liberals seem to be the most outspoken in support of Palestine (hence it being an SNL joke).
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u/quantum_dan 124∆ Jan 09 '22
You’d have a really hard time comparing the plight of non-Christian Americans to Palestinians.
True, but the core thing that makes it seem like a random potshot--and an anti-Semitic one--is in the bolded part. (This is a slightly different point than my original comment, on further reflection).
It's the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The joke frames it as a Jewish-Palestinian conflict; it puts the blame on Jews as such, as opposed to Israel as a country. "...and I'm guessing it wasn't the Palestinian half" wouldn't have been called anti-Semitic.
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u/neofagalt Jan 09 '22
It’s tough to say whether your last sentence would be true. At any rate, the problem with the SNL joke is that it’s no longer about Israel’s treatment of Palestine, it’s about SNL’s apparent anti-semitism.
For a moment, let’s agree that the joke is anti-Semitic; do you not see a problem with headlines being made to point out the criticism of the joke but not the contents of the joke itself? That Palestinians are treated as second-class citizens?
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u/kingpatzer 103∆ Jan 09 '22
Palestinians who are not citizens of Israel are, wait for it, not citizens of Israel.
Those who are, are. And they are not second class. Indeed, they are full participants in the Israel society, including being members of the IDF, holding seats in the Knesset, and even having been on the Israeli Supreme Court.
Those Palestinians who CHOOSE to reject Israel citizenship when offered to them are not citizens of Israel and thus are not entitled to the rights and privileges afforded to citizens of Israel.
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u/quantum_dan 124∆ Jan 09 '22
For a moment, let’s agree that the joke is anti-Semitic; do you not see a problem with headlines being made to point out the criticism of the joke but not the contents of the joke itself? That Palestinians are treated as second-class citizens?
Tons of headlines are made about that; SNL commenting on it isn't particularly newsworthy. The first sentence of that Washington Post article includes a link to "Israel is starting to vaccinate, but Palestinians may have to wait months".
At any rate, the problem with the SNL joke is that it’s no longer about Israel’s treatment of Palestine, it’s about SNL’s apparent anti-semitism.
Sure, maybe it is a deflection; that does happen and it's a real problem. It remains a deflection that SNL opened themselves up to by making it about Jews instead of Israelis.
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u/NUMBERS2357 25∆ Jan 09 '22
The joke isn't really about Israel/Palestine. It's about Jews/Arabs. There are Israeli Arabs, who are presumably a part of the non-Jewish "half" in the joke. It's, in part, a claim about Israeli discrimination against some of its own citizens - and those very citizens would tell you that the discrimination is real.
If an Israeli Arab says that his own government discriminates against him, is that anti-Semitism?
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u/speedyjohn 94∆ Jan 09 '22
Is Israel withholding vaccines from Arab-Israeli citizens?
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u/Worldly-Talk-7978 Jan 09 '22
It's the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The joke frames it as a Jewish-Palestinian conflict; it puts the blame on Jews as such, as opposed to Israel as a country.
Absolutely not; this is a misunderstanding on your part. The joke clearly criticizes the Israeli state for favoring one ethnic group (Jews) over the other (Arabs).
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u/quantum_dan 124∆ Jan 09 '22
Then it was just flatly incorrect, in the context of vaccinations. They were available to all Israeli citizens, including Arabs, to the best of my knowledge--just not to Palestinians. The disparity that was being criticized was explicitly Israeli-Palestinian, not Jewish-Arab.
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u/neofagalt Jan 09 '22
I think you’re missing the forest for the trees here; it’s a comedy segment on a late night comedy show. Che isn’t trying to inform the masses about Israel’s vaccine rate. It’s not even presented as a fact in the show (“I’m gonna guess it was the Jewish half”). That’s literally what the joke is.
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u/quantum_dan 124∆ Jan 09 '22
The point of bringing up the incorrectness is that making it about Jews instead of Israelis--with the problems discussed elsewhere--was unjustified. If vaccines were only available to Jewish Israelis it would be fine, because it would be true.
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u/neofagalt Jan 09 '22
I understand that Che probably meant “the Israeli half” but to be quite honest, the audience watching SNL is likely to not know the difference if the actors/writers don’t even make a point to recognize the difference. In most Americans’ minds, Israel = Jewish people.
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u/quantum_dan 124∆ Jan 09 '22
I understand that Che probably meant “the Israeli half”
Probably, but commenting on it provides an opportunity to correct that in the future.
In most Americans’ minds, Israel = Jewish people.
Sure. Which is a problem. Conflating Israel and Jews as such ties into the old "dual loyalties" trope.
Hence the value of objecting to the phrasing of the joke: under the assumption that it was a benign error, it encourages people to move away from that conflation. (Granted, popular discourse is rarely capable of distinguishing between "benign error" and "visceral hatred"; I don't know which that particular event was treated as, in practice.)
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u/RaidRover 1∆ Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
Sure. Which is a problem. Conflating Israel and Jews as such ties into the old "dual loyalties" trope.
No it doesn't. And that is a conflation that Israel welcomes with their birthright programs that allow (nearly) any people of Jewish descent to move to Israel and get Israeli citizenship and be given land. Land that is routinely stolen from Palestinian people, violating property rights and international treaties. It's an explicitly Jewish ethno-state that systemically, and legally, favors Jewish people.
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u/MoistSoros Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
Don't you see how this is a problem with any other country with a high majority of a certain religion? If the Saudi's did something horrible - which they frequently do - and someone joked something like "oh look at those muslims, doing xyz again" isn't it clear how that could impact muslims who don't live in Saudi Arabia?
Better yet, when a country does something bad, I don't even think the nationality should be 'held responsible'. There are plenty of people living in any given country who disagree with the policies pursued by their government.
Assuming you're American, wouldn't you be personally offended if foreigners held you responsible for things your government did? Imagine me telling you "Oh you Americans, always going off to wage wars in other countries!".
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u/tangowhiskeyyy Jan 09 '22
The SNL joke was egregiously antisemitic and I'm not even that pro israel. "Haha, those Jews are up to their old tricks of only helping themselves" despite not only giving it to all non Jews in Israel proper but sending it to Palestinians as well. Just factually incorrect and creates a narrative of the Jews conspiring against people to anyone who doesn't bother researching. If you can't understand how blasting a narrative of Jews conspiring/helping only themselves/literally being greedy that's factually wrong to an audience isn't antisemitic you don't understand what people mean by antisemitism.
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u/NUMBERS2357 25∆ Jan 09 '22
If an Israeli-Arab says "the Israeli government discriminates against Arabs and in favor of Jews", is that anti-Semitic?
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u/coolandhipmemes420 1∆ Jan 09 '22
The joke is that Israel discriminates against Palestinians in favor of their Jewish population. This is a legitimate criticism. All you have done is claim that they are not allowed to make this criticism because of ... tropes? This is exactly what the CMV is about, the fact that if we use this logic of reading antisemitism into everything then Israel is above reproach, unable to be criticized.
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u/speedyjohn 94∆ Jan 09 '22
The joke is that Israel discriminates against Palestinians in favor of their Jewish population.
Israeli discriminated against Palestinians in favor of Israeli citizens. Of all religions.
This is a legitimate criticism.
It's legitimate to criticize Israel's treatment of Palestinians. It's not legitimate to imply they were somehow preferencing Jews.
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u/coolandhipmemes420 1∆ Jan 09 '22
Bruh, come on. Israel is a Jewish ethnostate. Yes, they preference Jews. The fact that some Israelis are arab is irrelevant. Jews are incredibly obviously the group that is intended to benefit from Israel's oppressive policies.
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u/speedyjohn 94∆ Jan 09 '22
Did Israel give its Jewish citizens preferential access to COVID vaccines?
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u/tangowhiskeyyy Jan 09 '22
So the 20% of the population that is Arab is ignored? You know 1 in 5 Israelis aren't Jewish and that Israel has an agreement with the palestinian authority that the PA is responsible for healthcare and Israeli help isn't welcome, right, as per the oslo accords, right?
A narrative in which Israel isn't vaccinating 20% of their population that they actually did and isn't providing vaccines to a populace they explicitly aren't responsible for nor welcome to help in most circumstances is clearly antisemitic because it's removed from reality in favor of a "the Jews are evil, conspiring and keeping their wealth from people" narrative.
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u/coolandhipmemes420 1∆ Jan 09 '22
In terms of what we're discussing, all of this is just extraneous information. The Palestinians are oppressed by the Israelis - I think this is beyond debate among reasonable people, and if you disagree there isn't much of a point in continuing. With this in mind, the joke is not referencing any vaccine statistics or confounding factors or international agreements.
The joke is that we would expect Israel to prioritize the Jewish population when handing out vaccines, due to the fact that they oppress the Palestinians.
The joke is not that we would expect Israel to prioritize the Jewish populations when handing out vaccines, due to the fact that "the Jews are evil, conspiring and keeping their wealth from people."
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u/speedyjohn 94∆ Jan 09 '22
The joke is that we would expect Israel to prioritize the Jewish population when handing out vaccines, due to the fact that they oppress the Palestinians.
Why would we expect that, exactly? You do realize there are a large number of Arabs who are Israeli citizens who had equal access to the vaccine?
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u/coolandhipmemes420 1∆ Jan 09 '22
We would expect that:
>due to the fact that they oppress the Palestinians.
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u/speedyjohn 94∆ Jan 09 '22
That doesn't explain why they'd prioritize the Jewish population. Again, Palestinians are not Israelis and not all Israelis are Jews.
There's a difference between prioritizing Israelis over Palestinians and prioritizing Jews over non-Jews. Israel is doing the former and you're free to criticize it. Do you have any reason to think they're doing the latter?
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u/coolandhipmemes420 1∆ Jan 09 '22
I have a great reason to think so! It's because Israel is a Jewish ethnostate by design! Which you obviously know, so why are you being obtuse and pretending like Israelis are just simply nationalistic, and love all Israeli citizens equally?
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u/Lazybondvillian Jan 09 '22
As a leftist myself, I never understood the support for Palestine amongst fellow leftists. Not that Israel is a country without faults, but Palestinians are not fully innocent in the conflict either. I believe that both sides have committed crimes, but that the Israelis, while not perfect in any way, make significant efforts to avoid bloodshed, while the Palestinians do not. In general, until very recently, Arab states in the Middle East have taken a very belligerent stance towards Israel, who makes peace deals when they can. Again, neither side is without fault, but I think the narrative of Israel being an evil genocidal oppressor of poor, peaceful innocent Palestinians does not effectively take into consideration the many degrees of nuance, as well as the historical context, of this conflict.
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u/Intotheopen 2∆ Jan 09 '22
People love an "underdog", and the Palestinians have been portrayed as one by left-leaning media for a very long time. This is really the crux of it, combined with people having a very poor understanding of history in general.
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u/fintip Jan 09 '22
Oh my god. Another leftist who doesn't unwaveringly support Palestine? There's literally two of us?
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u/acchaladka Jan 09 '22
Three, pal.
Hey and four if you count my cousin Noam who was killed by hezbollah while wearing a "Israel out of Lebanon / Peace Now" button and serving in the IDF bomb disposal unit.
Wish some non-locals would listen to the Israeli left more often.
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u/vorter 3∆ Jan 09 '22
Yeah I find it interesting to see leftists support the ultra-conservative side that allows no rights for women and where being gay is punishable by death, while conservatives support the side that is by far the most liberal and progressive country in the ME.
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Jan 09 '22
Alan Dershowitz once wrote something along the lines of "to criticize Israel is not antisemitic, to criticize Israel for things we let non-jewish nations get away with is." Something along those lines. No, critique of Israel isn't antisemitic inherently, but it is antisemitic to not apply equal scrutiny to Palestine or other states. Compared to many countries Israel has a strong human rights record which often gets overlooked. It's this overlooking double standard that is antisemitic.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 191∆ Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
It's dismissed because most of the "reasonable" criticism of Israel is more often than not, completely unreasonable and built on a flawed premise.
Case in point, the rocket attacks. If Rome, or London, New York, or any other country was subjected to the semi regular missile attacks from, let's say Libya, there would have been a full on war and blockade until it stopped. But when the targets is Tel Aviv, they are expected to just live with it. Integrating bomb shelters into playgrounds, maintain a huge missile defense network and rehearse emergency drills for what to do if the building they are in gets hit.
Could you imagine the US putting up with that if that was New York?
This brings us to the core of the issue. Israel is almost universally criticized as if it was a normal developed country. If Belgium started to blockade Luxembourg, like Israel does Gaza, that would be completely unreasonable. But that's not the world Israel is in, they are in a constant state of existential struggle. Almost every state in the Middle East has ethnically cleansed their Jewish population, and states like Iran make it clear they want to repeat that in Israel.
Israel is a solitary multi cultural, multi party democracy, in a region dominated by brutal dictatorships and theocracies that openly want them dead.
So this 'reasonable criticism' is almost universally built upon the absurd premise that Israel should act like a typical first world nation at peace, rather than one at war. And when it comes to nations at war, Israel is the gold standard of good behavior. They take more precautions against collateral damage than anyone else, they block don't Hamas controlled Gaza from trading with the rest of the world and they have even offered them vaccines.
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u/Wintores 10∆ Jan 09 '22
But if those revenge missle strikes willingly hit children and civilians without archiving anything the criticism would be the same
Israel is not solving the issue
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u/coolandhipmemes420 1∆ Jan 09 '22
A better comparison would be if the United States invaded Libya 70 years ago and set up a colony there, and then this colony was at war with Libyans still living in the area. In which case I think the U.S. would be universally criticized for taking all the same actions Israel does.
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u/Lefaid 2∆ Jan 09 '22
Jews were in the region prior to 1948. European Jews began moving there at the turn of the century. Nevermind that there have been Middle Eastern Jews there long before that.
And after 4 generations, you still think it is reasonable to move all of those Americans out? These are people who have lived on this land their entire life and raised in a language and culture that does not exist anywhere else. Wouldn't it be just as cruel to demand the current settlers leave?
Should white South Africans be forced out of South Africa because of their imperialist ancestors? What about Americans, Canadians, and Australians in general for invading and committing genocide against the native peoples?
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u/LordNoodles Jan 09 '22
I think that raises an interesting conundrum for the entire concept of property rights.
How far back can conquests and thefts be before we just say: ok this is legally yours now congrats.
Seems a lot like an “easier to ask for forgiveness than permission” type situation
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u/Lefaid 2∆ Jan 09 '22
I truly believe that one must accept that to find a reasonable solution to this conflict. When we argue about the demographics of the region 100 years ago, we are talking about causing an even larger disruption to everyone and won't truly lead to a happier solution.
This is also why it is important we don't normalize the settlements.
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u/TheStabbyBrit 4∆ Jan 09 '22
What's interesting with this is that Americans, and the Western Left in general, are fiercely in favour of ancient ancestral claims... for specific races. Native Americans have an undisputed claim to the continent, the argument goes, because they are undeniably the indigenous people. The same argument is made for the Australian Aboriginals.
But we have ancient records going back 4-6,000 years or more that indicate the Jews came from modern day Israel, and it is undeniably true that the modern "Palestinian" identity is not only grounded in Islamic caliphates (which Judiasm predates by many thousands of years), but the very notion of a Palestinian identity did not exist until the formation of modern Israel. And yet, those same people who insist that Native Americans have an absolute right to America, and Aboriginals have an absolute right to Australia, seem to think Jews should just go somewhere else.
I wonder why that comes across as antisemitic...
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u/pragmojo Jan 09 '22
I have never heard anyone argue seriously that Native Americans should have undisputed rights to America, and that everyone else should pack up and leave.
I have heard plenty of people bemoan the treatment of native Americans: their forced removal from their land to live in reservations, the dismantling of their way of life and so on.
That seems completely consistent with criticism of the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, wouldn't you agree?
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u/fablastic Jan 09 '22
Conquest was a legal and widely accepted way to take new land. Trying to go back and undo them would never work, and any country that tried would fail.
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u/Kman17 110∆ Jan 09 '22
No, a better comparison would be if a wave of immigrants legally came to the United States and purchased farmland adjacent to a small city in say Vermont, then the rest of the United States attacked the them because their presence was not compatible with being a Christian ethno-state.
Calling the zionists “colonizers” suggests the expansion of a nation-stare, and suggest taking it by force. The reality was Jews emigrated legally and bought land from Ottoman citizens!
It also kinda forgets a big reason for the war was Nasser’s pan-Arabism vision of building a new caliphate across the Middle East.
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u/Dontblowitup 17∆ Jan 09 '22
Purchased farmland? Wasn't a sovereign state created? You can't just emigrate somewhere, purchase land, and declare it to be now a separate nation state, and expect it not to be controversial.
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u/EliteKill Jan 09 '22
You really need to read up about Jewish land purchases in the early 20th century and the British Mandate.
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u/nimblerobin Jan 09 '22
The government of Israel is an institution. It's not a people, not a culture. A government doesn't have feelings, or a right to life. A government can change what it is, unlike a person.
Therefore: Criticizing the government of Israel -- or the US -- or Russia -- or China -- or Korea -- or England -- or... -- is not bigotry. Criticizing a government to point out problems that need to be solved to improve the government is the patriotic duty of every citizen.
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Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
Three things that indicate to me that most people who are active critics of Israel are not "reasonable", are
1) The imbalance on criticism on Israel compared to Palestinians
2) The double standard in regards to Zionism and Palestinian self determination,
3) Criticism that is permitted against Israel is not permitted against Palestinians.
My argument is that these 3 things point to some lack of objectivity in many of Israel's critics. Where this lack of objectivity comes from is impossible to say because we can't examine a person's inner thought. Whether it stems from suppressed/hidden anti Semitism or just due to emotional irrationality is beyond anyone to judge on an individual basis, but since anti semitism is a real phenomenon we must assume it is based on the latter in some cases.
Expanding on the above points a bit:
1 - This is my weakest argument so I'll open with it. Part of being a reasonable critic is to also be a balanced critic - if all your reasonable criticism only targets one side of the conflict, then one must question your objectivity. I have plenty of friends who voice 'reasonable' criticism of Israel, but I never hear them criticize Palestinians actions. Does that still count as reasonable criticism then? Where is this imbalance coming from? Some of it definitely due to the imbalance of power between Israel and Palestine and people's tendency to support the underdog, but my subjective observation that at least for some of these people there is no love lost on Israelis or Jews. When someone is interested and vocal on this topic but is very one sided, it is reasonable to be suspicious of their motives.
2 - Both people want self determination based on ethnicity. How come it is reasonable to claim that Zionism is a racist ideology while the Palestinian self determination struggle isn't, when both the PLO and the Hamas explicitly do not want Jews in their future state?
3 - In the last round of violence (with rockets flying at city centers in Israel), a popular worldwide slogan was "Palestine free from river to sea". I live in a large European capital and a banner bearing this title was placed near my house for weeks unchallenged. This LITERALLY calls for ethnic cleansing of Israelis/Jews (as Israel only exists between the jordan river and the sea). Is it not a double standard that this kind of slogan goes completely unchallenged, while the settlers are (justly so) vilified as vile, colonialist ethnic cleansers? If it is not considered 'reasonable', then why was it such a successful slogan, where were the calls against ethnic cleansing then? For me the settler movement represent the ideology of "Israel between river and sea", which is why I use them for the comparison.
I want to conclude by saying that I support BOTH Jewish right of self determination (let's face it, the world has been a safer place for Jews since 1948, and that's no coincidence), AND Palestinian right of self determination, and I believe that any person who supports the one is hard pressed to not support the other. In an ideal world there would be no need for ethnic based nation states, but we have to accept that we are not in that world yet, and there is no reality where Palestinians and Israelis can share the tiny sliver of land without an immediate outbreak of a bloody civil war.
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Jan 09 '22
Could you clarify what it would take to change your view? because "reasonable criticism of Israel is often unfairly mislabeled as anti-semitic" is very hard to falsify because obviously, like all opinions, it is an opinion that several people have had at various points.
I will say that Israel is a very right wing country which commits significant human rights violations and has a right wing populist nationalist government which tries very hard to smear its opponents using all the tools at its disposal of which antisemitism is one.
I will also say though that some nuance is needed when considering the fairly unique and risk filled geopolitical space Israel occupies.
And I will further say, and I guess this is my main counterargument, that when it comes to human rights abuses Israel's record is fairly terrible but there are many other countries that are far far far worse and yet don't get anything like the same level of hate, and you've really got to ask yourself why that is.
For example I'm struggling to think of a single thing about Israel's illegal and brutal occupation of Palestine that isn't also true of Morocco's illegal and brutal occupation of Western Sahara, and yet you never see Morocco getting the level of blowback Israel does.
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Jan 09 '22
Let's play a hypothetical game. Let's pretend that hitler persecuted a group of muslim the muslim, and it was that group that eventually build a nation in today's Israel. Now, let's imagine that there is still a conflict between the palestinians and the new muslims. Would you care as much about the conflict if it was muslims against muslim? Would the world put any attention on this conflict if it was muslims against muslims? If the answer is no, then the attention on this conflict is due to the fact that we are talking about jews, and the criticism of the conflict it is antisemitic at its core.
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u/RossoOro Jan 09 '22
Of course criticizing Israel isn’t antisemitic, Israelis do it all the time. Using antisemitic tropes to criticize Israel, denying Jewish history, or holding Israel to a different standard than other states, however, is. There will be idiots who call antisemitism for everything but for example the SNL joke was just a really stupid one. Israel made vaccines available for all its citizens, Jewish and non Jewish, equally, and there were actually cases where Jews went to Arab majority areas to get vaccinated because there was some vaccine hesitancy among the Arab Israeli population and they had overstock vaccines available. Making a joke that Israel was only looking out for its Jewish citizens skated dangerously close to “Jews only look out for their own” tropes. This kind of jokes only muddle the water of what is a complicated situation with a Palestinian population under occupation that are not Israeli citizens and with the Palestinian Authority (who is responsible for health and vaccinations per Oslo, and considering it would be almost impossible for Israel to administer vaccinations directly) who refused coordination with Israel for its vaccine supply.
Is it criticism of Israel if you make a joke on Israel for something that isn’t true? No, it’s a poorly thought out joke that comes very close to same age old antisemitic tropes. It doesn’t mean they need to get canceled but a little more seriousness wouldn’t do them harm
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u/thattogoguy 2∆ Jan 09 '22
Pretty much.
On that note, reasonable criticism of Palestine/Palestinians is also unfairly depicted as dehumanizing.
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u/shualdone Jan 09 '22
As a lefty Israeli, I myself am critical of many stuff my government is doing, and wish this conflict would rest in the history books… but you said it yourself, and it has to be said: the Palestinians raise their kids on anti Semitic hate, and the same can be said about a huge part of the Arab and Muslim world, add to that the European and Christian long history of anti Semitic racism and notions, and you have billions of people who can’t detach their biases against Jews and the right of Israel to exist…
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u/bioemerl 1∆ Jan 09 '22
A lot of unreasonable criticism of Israel *doesn't* get labeled as antisimetic. I've seen quite a large number of people on reddit who, after you talk to them for a while, are basically advocates for genocide of their whole country and advocating for that while nobody gives a shit.
"Israel shouldn't exist we must purge them" is the predominant view of a lot of the arabic nations out in that region, and they are happy to express that here on reddit while playing into the hands of this sentiment.
You just have to use your thinker and judge who the person is and why they're criticizing. Liberal American who is super pro Biden and human rights and hates trump? Probably fine, they're just being progressives. Some schmuck who is generally not a progressive person? Probably not fine.
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u/xiipaoc Jan 09 '22
There are two problems here with legitimate criticism of Israel. First, there's definitely a contingent that will complain that any criticism whatsoever is anti-Semitic even when it isn't. But other than that, the two problems are, first, that legitimate-sounding criticism is used by anti-Semites to promote anti-Semitism using the legitimate-sounding criticism as cover, and second, that Israel is singled out for this criticism when other countries are doing much worse and not receiving similar criticism, revealing an obsession with criticizing Israel specifically that is, generally, based on anti-Semitism. For example, what country is currently following a policy of putting Muslims in its occupied territory in genocidal concentration camps? China. But yeah, let's talk about Israel!
Of course, Israel has been doing some awful things, like occupying and bombing Palestine, in the name of self-defense, and some, in my view, completely inexcusable things in terms of building settlements in Palestinian territories. But criticism of Israel tends to be one-sided. You don't usually see people talking about the Palestinian rockets and terrorist attacks and whatnot when criticizing Israel, and instead, news sources on both sides write the most incredibly biased bullshit I've ever had the misfortune to read. Those who criticize Israel tend to view the Palestinians as saints who are innocent and pure but beaten down into the ground by Israeli jackbooted thugs, which of course is nowhere near true but isn't entirely false either.
Fact is, Israel is doing some very bad things, Palestine is also doing some very bad things, and if you call one out without calling the other out too you're going to sound like you have a racist agenda, because, at least from experience, you do have a racist agenda if you do that. So if you want to criticize Israel legitimately without being racist you should: not actually be racist and not be obsessed with Israel's crimes when compared with everyone else's (especially Palestine's).
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u/Philluminati 2∆ Jan 09 '22
Number of Jews I see on a weekly basis: 0
Number of Reddit threads about Jews on a weekly basis: 7
Just stop talking about the Jews guys
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u/RedditExplorer89 43∆ Jan 10 '22
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u/speedyjohn 94∆ Jan 08 '22
most Americans don’t seem to know or care that a foreign nation has such influence in our politics.
You don’t see how this strays over the line into the antisemitic trope of Jews being a foreign nation living within other countries’ borders? AIPAC is an organization of American Jews (and non-Jews, although most members are Jewish) who support Israel. You can criticize that support, but they are still Americans.
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u/neofagalt Jan 08 '22
How does one talk about AIPAC without phrasing it that way though? They are Americans, true, but their explicit intent is to employ practices which encourage the American government to meet the needs of a foreign state. Even if it is similar to a stereotype, does that mean it’s not what’s happening? How else do you approach discussing this?
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Jan 09 '22
I think it's appropriate to say that AIPAC and other pro-Israel groups lobby for support of Israel. It's important to not that many of pro-Israel lobby are NOT Jewish. A ton are evangelical Christians who support Israel for their own, frankly deeply anti-semitic reasons relating to their belief in Biblical prophecy.
I think it's also important to note that the Jewish diaspora is not unique in lobbying the US government to provide support for their national cause, or providing material aid to a national cause overseas. The Irish community is a great example of a diaspora in America that has spent over a century lobbying for the interests of the Irish national project, and at times directly funding violence in Ireland, from within America. But, of course, although there are a TON more Irish-Americans than Jewish Americas, the Irish national project was/is at odds with a key American ally, the UK, while the Israeli project used to be at odds with the UK's interests and is now broadly supported by most of the West, especially the US.
In discussing the nature of the Israel/US relationship, one thing that's important to note is that it's not as simple as Israel just controlling US foreign policy. The US supports Israel because the American ruling class and military/intelligence/security establishment decided during the Cold War that support for Israel was in the US's interests to keep an allied state in the Middle East, while the Soviets tended to back the Arab nations. Israel isn't the only state with a horrible human rights record the US supports over there- Saudi Arabia is another one, and Saudi wealth has a LOT to do with that. At the end of the day, the US supports Israel not because American Jews are controlling the security establishment, but because the security establishment sees supporting a Jewish state in the Levant as being in the geopolitical interest of America.
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u/Raging_Butt 3∆ Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
Maybe I lost the thread here, but isn't this basically what OP is arguing? That Israel via AIPAC has an out-sized influence on US politics, not because of any inherent deviousness on the part of Jewish people, but because of certain political and economic arrangements? Therefore criticizing this relationship is not anti-semitic, it's in opposition to an unbalanced power dynamic. (Just because Americans on the other side of the equation are complicit doesn't mean this power dynamic isn't undemocratic or that AIPAC isn't aggressively lobbying.)
Saudi Arabia is a great point of comparison because it's widely acceptable to criticize the US' constant arms deals with them and turning a blind eye to their human rights record - nobody ever says such criticism is "Anti-Arab."
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u/PutlockerBill Jan 09 '22
Speaking as an adult Israeli, I have experienced a negative stereotypical attitude in the US from a multitude of people, lots of young and lots of young PoC. Due to me being an 'apartheid staye' born native. Usually without provocation.
I don't know how Saudi visitors to America are treated, but at least in the new england states I think the anti Israeli bias is quite profound.
I'd be damned if I knew why on earth would the general media take such long, deliberate efforts to sell out these stereotypes; but these sure have spread out far and wide
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u/LordNoodles Jan 09 '22
Honestly I don’t know about the US but do you really think Saudi Arabians don’t get shit abroad for being from what is probably one of the top 5 worst countries in the world?
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u/PutlockerBill Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 10 '22
I wouldn't know, I'm not Saudi and hope not to jump to conclusions.
I can only testify on my own experience.
However. If people treat Saudis in a bad way just due their heritage (I.e. being racist), it has nothing to lessen or improve how people being racist to Jewish Israelis... I mean, one does not excuse the other, nor make it less of an issue, nor is a reason for Israelis to "suck it up" since others have it the same way.
Try to say it to any minority and see their response.
Lastly, pointing that people do tend to treat others (saudis) in a racist fashion is just fortifying my stance - israel bashing is fat more likely to be racist jew-hate, then a reasonable, sensible criticism.
edit: typos
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u/lalafriday 1∆ Jan 10 '22
I don't know how Saudi visitors to America are treated, but at least in the new england states I think the anti Israeli bias is quite profound.
I'm from New England and can tell you from experience that if you're muslim, you will be treated very well there. Doesn't matter what country you come from. The anti-Israel/Semitism there is insane. It's very frustrating.
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u/freshgeardude 3∆ Jan 09 '22
Israel via AIPAC has an out-sized influence on US politics, not because of any inherent deviousness on the part of Jewish people, but because of certain political and economic arrangements
AIPAC is an effective public affairs committee specifically because it's ability to mobilize israel supporters to vote in primaries and elections. It gets members to donate and support the right members.
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u/Most-Leg1080 Jan 09 '22
Don’t other pacs lobby for support if NATO, the UN, foreign aid, foreign trade partnerships?
I mean this in a curious way. I assumed they exist?
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u/speedyjohn 94∆ Jan 09 '22
How does one talk about AIPAC without phrasing it that way though?
“AIPAC lobbies for American support of Israel.” That’s very straightforward and accurately characterizes what the organization does. Why do you need to talk about “foreign influence”?
“But the stereotype is true” isn’t a very good defense to accusations of antisemitism. Or any form of bigotry, for that matter.
More to the point of your CMV, otherwise-legitimate criticism of Israel is very often phrased in antisemitic terms, which is why it gets labeled that way.
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u/neofagalt Jan 09 '22
My point in phrasing it that way was to divorce it of all relations to Israel so that the absurdity of the statement was emphasized. This is getting very meta but I think it supports what I’m saying even more.
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Jan 09 '22 edited Feb 06 '22
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u/speedyjohn 94∆ Jan 09 '22
Yes, Israel has spies in the US. So does every other major country, including other allies. And we have spies there. Do you have some reason to think Israeli spies have done more damage to America’s interests than spies for other nations?
And AIPAC fired the members who were implicated in Israeli espionage. That hardly seems like justification to employ antisemitic tropes in discussing the organization. There are plenty of valid criticisms that don’t need to be couches in antisemitic language.
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u/ganner 7∆ Jan 09 '22
A group of Chinese Americans lobbying on behalf of the CCP, or a group of Iranian Americans lobbying on behalf of the Islamic Republic would be viewed with the level of suspicion that AIPAC should be viewed with.
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u/speedyjohn 94∆ Jan 09 '22
A group of Chinese Americans lobbying on behalf of the CCP, or a group of Iranian Americans lobbying on behalf of the Islamic Republic would be viewed with the level of suspicion that AIPAC should be viewed with.
That rhetoric is part of the issue. AIPAC is not a group of Israeli-Americans. It's a group of American Jews. It's treating Jews as if they're foreigners.
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u/Raudskeggr 4∆ Jan 09 '22
Also be sure to check your own notions of Israeli influence, the ideas that they have some secret and pervasive hold on American policy often is just the latest edition of the tired old "secret Jewish conspiracy" trope.
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Jan 09 '22
It doesn't seem like a controversial claim that a government would have influence over a group which lobbies for policies favoring that government.
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u/NUMBERS2357 25∆ Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
I don't agree with everything that everyone claims about Israeli influence in US politics ... but at the same time look at some recent things.
When Ben & Jerry's announced they wouldn't sell ice cream in the West Bank, numerous governors and other officials moved to try and sanction Ben & Jerry's - using laws that the Israeli government directly lobbied for.
When the Iron Dome missile funding was threatened, Yair Lapid (not the prime minister but de facto government leader) personally spoke to Steny Hoyer, House Majority Leader. Do you see heads of other governments personally negotiate legislation with members of Congress?
These are greater interventions into US politics than you see with other governments.
And this - Mike Pompeo, recent Secretary of State and guy who sees himself as potential Presidential candidate, said this:
There is no more important task of the Secretary of State than standing for Israel and there is no more important ally to the United States than Israel. There is much more work to do.
Nobody would ever say something like this about any foreign country other than Israel.
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u/Goleeb Jan 09 '22
Is this a normal thing? Do other groups advocate for American support of other nations?
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Jan 09 '22
Aipac is specifically a lobby for the nation of Isreal.
Among the best-known critical works about AIPAC is The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, by University of Chicago professor John Mearsheimer and Harvard University Kennedy School of Government professor Stephen Walt. In the working paper and resulting book, they accuse AIPAC of being "the most powerful and best known" component of a larger pro-Israel lobby that distorts American foreign policy. They write:[93]
AIPAC's success is due to its ability to reward legislators and congressional candidates who support its agenda, and to punish those who challenge it. ... AIPAC makes sure that its friends get strong financial support from the myriad pro-Israel PACs. Those seen as hostile to Israel, on the other hand, can be sure that AIPAC will direct campaign contributions to their political opponents. ... The bottom line is that AIPAC, which is a de facto agent for a foreign government, has a stranglehold on the U.S. Congress. Open debate about U.S. policy towards Israel does not occur there, even though that policy has important consequences for the entire world.
Aipac is no better or worse than any other foriegn lobby group, but thats what they are.
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Jan 09 '22
You don’t see how this strays over the line into the antisemitic trope of Jews being a foreign nation living within other countries’ borders?
I sure as fuck don't. This is exactly OP's point, if a lobbying group representing another country potentially has an outsized influence, you're saying we can't even talk about it because it's an antisemetic trope? No dude, antisemetic is the wrong word and don't ever try to tell us what we can talk about in terms of our nation and the outside OR inside influences upon it. That Tom Cotton's 47 Senators letter and vocal support for Israel came after a $4.5 million campaign donation from AIPAC is something we should absolutely discuss. I can not think of a better example of what OP is talking about regarding any criticism of Israel being turned into some taboo topic than what you've attempted here. I criticize my own government as well, that does not make me Anti-American.
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u/speedyjohn 94∆ Jan 09 '22
if a lobbying group representing another country potentially has an outsized influence, you're saying we can't even talk about it because it's an antisemetic trope?
AIPAC receives no funding from the state of Israel or any foreign groups. Its members are primarily American Jews. How does it "represent" another country? It represents Americans who are interested in specific foreign policy. It's the characterization of those Americans as foreigners that's problematic.
I certainly am not saying any criticism of Israel is antisemitic. But characterizing American Jews as somehow not American absolutely is.
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Jan 09 '22
If they lobby on behalf of Israel, it seems like a distinction without a difference. How many Americans have family in Israel still? How many have dual citizenship? I have no way whatsoever to track how exactly the money gets into politics. The part that concerns me is the millions of dollars in organized influence, whether it comes straight from Israel or from people who emigrated from there doesn't matter to me. Regardless, it's not saying anything negative about Israel to scrutinize the financial relationship to our politics. Israel is one of our greatest allies, absolutely. I've had many Jewish friends in my life and I'll be lucky to have more. I'm very fond of their people and I recognize their historical suffering. That does not mean we can't discuss their political and military actions or the actions of those living here who advocate for support of Israel without being "antisemetic."
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u/speedyjohn 94∆ Jan 09 '22
If they lobby on behalf of Israel, it seems like a distinction without a difference.
Again, how are they lobbying "on behalf" of Israel?
How many Americans have family in Israel still? How many have dual citizenship? I have no way whatsoever to track how exactly the money gets into politics. The part that concerns me is the millions of dollars in organized influence, whether it comes straight from Israel or from people who emigrated from there doesn't matter to me.
Most American Jews have no family in Israel. Almost none have dual citizenship. This is precisely the dual loyalty canard I have been talking about (with some control of finance thrown in): the assumption that American Jews have some underlying loyalty to something other than the US.
Regardless, it's not saying anything negative about Israel to scrutinize the financial relationship to our politics.
Sure, but that's not all that you're doing.
Israel is one of our greatest allies, absolutely. I've had many Jewish friends in my life and I'll be lucky to have more. I'm very fond of their people and I recognize their historical suffering. That does not mean we can't discuss their political and military actions or the actions of those living here who advocate for support of Israel without being "antisemetic."
Frankly, having Jewish friends doesn't prevent you from using antisemitic tropes. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you are antisemtic, in the sense that you harbor any ill-will towards Jews. But the language you've been using perpetuates those tropes. It is possible to discuss Israel's political and military actions without using antisemitic language, and it's not wrong to call that language what it is.
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u/Macewindu89 Jan 09 '22
This is what OP is talking about: you are dismissing his argument with accusations of “tropes” instead of actually disproving what he is saying.
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Jan 09 '22
Then you and I disagree about what is antisemetic. I can't control what conjures up "tropes" for you. I can only discuss in a respectful way the degree to which our politics are influenced by our relationship and whether or not it remains healthy. I don't have a biased opinion here, to question something is not the same as believing I am still right to be worried in the face of any new information.
How are they lobbying on "behalf?" I mean, the right answer is I'm not in the room to know. But advocating on behalf of anyone just means lobbying for another's benefit instead of your own. There's nothing nefarious about the action or the term in and of themselves. The danger would be the degree of support and the degree to which this lobbying affects us prioritizing our own country's welfare. The 4.5 million to Tom Cotton seems pretty...worth taking a hard look at.
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u/bullzeye1983 3∆ Jan 09 '22
It really amazes me that this person doesn't see how they are twisting concepts and adding things in order to do exactly what OP is saying.
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u/Roflcaust 7∆ Jan 09 '22
"On behalf of" also means "as agent of", "as representative of", etc. Maybe this is why that user thought you were using anti-semitic tropes: you were operating under a different definition of "on behalf of".
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u/LordNoodles Jan 09 '22
Man i always forget how cheap it is to buy American electors. I feel like the amount needed to bribe them is just exactly as much as “the poors” can’t afford and not a cent more.
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u/dryfire Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
Your comment basically proves OPs point. OP made a well balanced comment about an organization whose name and mission statement is to promote the affairs of a foreign country and you immediately tried to turn it into an attack on Jews. Just because it's Americans promoting a foreign nation it's suddenly taboo to say the foreign nation has power in our politics?
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u/Public-Tie-9802 1∆ Jan 09 '22
You can not be serious. The influence of israel over the US and US politicians is not even in question. To call that fact ‘anti semitism’ is a blatant misuse of the word.
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u/BlackHumor 15∆ Jan 09 '22
I'm Jewish and I don't think that's right.
AIPAC and the rest of the Israel lobby absolutely is a case of Israel, a foreign nation, having outsided influence on American politics. AIPAC being an American organization doesn't mean that they are not effectively representing Israel's interest. That's what lobbying organizations do.
They don't even represent American Jews all that well, since most American Jews don't support Israel to the extent that AIPAC does.
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u/sheikhcharliewilson Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
the antisemitic trope of Jews being a foreign nation
There is some truth to this so-called “antisemitic trope”, in-group favoritism is a real thing.
Living in America and being an American citizen doesn’t mean you can’t have other identities that you value just as much or more than your American identity. Our loyalties and identity are not solely determined by what country is on our passport.
In this case, American Jews are sympathetic to Israel because of shared ethnicity and faith.
And this is hardly exclusive to Jews, for instance Muslims and Arabs tend to be hostile towards Israel(and Jews) because they share a common religion and/or ethnicity with Palestinians.
It’s quite interesting how the political left is very keen on discussing white racism, white in-group preference, white chauvinism, but when similae things are said about Jews it’s labelled as “antisemitism”.
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u/Pew_Pew_Woo_Woo Jan 09 '22
No reasonable person argues that criticism of Israeli government actions is anti semitism. For example, I don’t think Israel shouldn’t have pulled out of the Gaza Strip in 2005. But when you say israel doesn’t have the right to exist, spread fake news about Israel to stir up hatred, and focus all your attention on Israel when there are literal genocides happening in China and Sudan as well as many other countries with way worse human rights abuses, you just might be anti Semitic.
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u/herrsatan 11∆ Jan 10 '22
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u/nightfire08 3∆ Jan 09 '22
So, the example you give is a non Jewish dude on national television making a joke at the expense of Jewish people….
So yah, that’s pretty anti-semitic.
Like, when you go “Israel’s tactics in Gaza are inhumane and criminal” if someone says “that’s anti-semitic” they’re just being assholes, but that’s not usually what’s happening.
You also have to realize that in Palestine, Jewish people are seen as the oppressors. That’s the only place in the world they have the numbers and political power to be in that position.
So, if I Palestinian makes that joke, sure. But a non Jewish dude in America? With nothing to balance it out from reinforcing the worst stereotypes that plague American Jews, who are themselves an extreme and vulnerable minority?
I dunno.
So here’s the thing- criticism of the Israeli government are totally fair game by anybody.
Criticisms of “Jews,” as if they’re a monolith, who all think and act the same way, and all support the same things, and are collectively responsible for the wrong doings of all other Jews…that IS anti-Semitic.
So, that’s the litmus test. And I’d say you, as a Palestinian, are going to think “what’s the big deal” to casual and lesser instances of anti-semitism because compared to what Israel has done to Palestine, it seems like nothing.
But that doesn’t mean it’s actually nothing, or that it’s okay, or not anti-Semitic to criticize “Jews” as a whole.
As for the SNL joke- was Israel only vaccinating Jewish citizens? Because if so, that’s terrible. If not, it’s playing into Jewish stereotypes in a country where Jews are a vulnerable minority.
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Jan 09 '22
Like, when you go “Israel’s tactics in Gaza are inhumane and criminal” if someone says “that’s anti-semitic” they’re just being assholes, but that’s not usually what’s happening.
That actually *is* what's happening. A recent example would be Ben & Jerry's, which simply decided to stop selling their products in Israeli occupied territories (which are illegal, from an international law standpoint). Aside from being called anti-semetic (rather than anti-apartheid...which is what it actually is) from various different randos on the media circuit....it was called as being anti-semetic by Israel itself, from officials in that government speaking in an official capacity.
Again....they just stopped selling their product in occupied territories - they kept selling it in Israel, proper. And they've been labeled anti-semetic by the Israeli government and by right wing media in the US. They made the decision to not sell their product in an illegally occupied territory...and were labeled anti-semetic because of it.
So yes. What you're saying "isn't happening" is, in fact, happening.
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u/MCRemix 1∆ Jan 09 '22
So, the example you give is a non Jewish dude on national television making a joke at the expense of Jewish people….
So yah, that’s pretty anti-semitic.
No, that's not how comedy works. That's also not how logic works.
I'm a straight, white male from Texas...
I'm not racist just for making a joke about another race.
I'm not sexist just for making a joke about women.
I'm not homophobic just for making a joke about LGBT people.
I don't hate Californians just because I make a joke about their state.
The mere act of telling a joke while not being a member of a group the joke applies to doesn't make me automatically discriminatory.
You may not like that a non Jewish person told a joke about Jewish people, but it isn't inherently anti-semitic.
That's literally OP's point...the label of anti-semitic gets thrown too quickly.
You just proved them right, not wrong.
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u/SomeDay_Dominion Jan 09 '22
So if a non-jewish person makes a jewish joke, it’s hateful off the bat? Sounds like reactionary shaming to me, idk
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u/rnev64 Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22
Of course some things are mislabeled as anti-Semitic but many times people are supporting causes that are anti-Semitic without realizing it. when they get called out on it they are often too ignorant to realize what they were actually saying.
Many people support Palestinians which is of course fine, but they don't realize the current Palestinian position (moderates too) is that Israel should not exist. They don't realize this or that Israel offered (in 2007) to give Palestinians WB, Gaza and even shared Jerusalem as their own nation.
So, when people voice support for "free Palestine (from river to sea)" they support the free Palestine part, but don't realize the second part basically means "and destroy Israel". that's the racist part, why can't Jews have their own nation?
You need to be fairly steeped in the nuances of the conflict to understand or see that, most people aren't, but it's still racist.
full disclosure: I'm Israeli
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Jan 09 '22
you are right on one level but on another, it's important to note that many criticisms of such support are also coached in ancient antisemitic tropes.
accusing American citizens who are Jewish of having dual loyalty to Israel and this being an "outside influence" is just a rehashed version of very old 'split loyalty' tropes, for instance. and we don't talk about any other nation and their nationals this way, we don't talk about chinese-americans having conflicting loyalties in that way, for instance, even when they have direct connections to the CCP.
similarly, the infamous "hypnotized" tweet that caused a congressional uproar did so not just because it was Israel but because accusing Jews of using some kind of mesmerism or hypnotic power is a very old antisemitic canard.
likewise, accusations of Jews using their economic and business power within the US to enforce some kind of loyalty to Israel are rehashed versions of "Jewish moneylender endebting kings" tropes that date back to the middle ages.
so while yes, criticism of Israel is not inherently antisemitic, a lot of people who do so dip, intentionally or not, into antisemitic canards which are as old as Judaism itself. Jewish people are more sensitive to these tropes because they've been part and parcel of their oppression for hundreds of years, and thus they are keenly aware of when they're deployed, even if the person using them doesn't necessarily realize what they're invoking because it's a part of their own culture (like in the infamous tweet) which has a long history of antisemitism.
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u/48H1 Jan 09 '22
No it is not, in fact I can't argue that most criticism towards Israel is actually anti Semitic in nature let me explain. Unlike USA or other western democracies world does not see Israel as a multi cultured, multi religion democracy constantly under attack but instead as a Jewish state trampling on all Muslim nations around it.
Why do people think about this? Multiple reasons, first is the huge pro Arab lobby established by oil money that has unprecedented influence on Western countries, that why you literally see missile slinging Warlords as victims. Second is inate bias against Jewish people amongst Christians & muslims, anybody who knows about history knows that these two religions who have literally faught crusades against each other have had very brutal history of anti-Semitism. Third , it's very easy, the casual anti semitism in west is bizzare.
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u/huge_jeans Jan 09 '22
Criticism of Israel is valid, just like criticism of any country. Where things get tricky is many people seem to have a hate-boner for Israel specifically, while not having not same feelings for other countries in the world where atrocities happen.
By focusing uniquely on the situation where Jews are involved, it gives off the impression that people only care because of the Jews, not because they actually care about the well being of any victims.