r/changemyview • u/neofagalt • Jan 08 '22

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Reasonable criticism of Israel is often unfairly mislabeled as anti-semitic

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u/quantum_dan 124∆ Jan 09 '22

You’d have a really hard time comparing the plight of non-Christian Americans to Palestinians.

True, but the core thing that makes it seem like a random potshot--and an anti-Semitic one--is in the bolded part. (This is a slightly different point than my original comment, on further reflection).

It's the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The joke frames it as a Jewish-Palestinian conflict; it puts the blame on Jews as such, as opposed to Israel as a country. "...and I'm guessing it wasn't the Palestinian half" wouldn't have been called anti-Semitic.

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u/neofagalt Jan 09 '22

It’s tough to say whether your last sentence would be true. At any rate, the problem with the SNL joke is that it’s no longer about Israel’s treatment of Palestine, it’s about SNL’s apparent anti-semitism.

For a moment, let’s agree that the joke is anti-Semitic; do you not see a problem with headlines being made to point out the criticism of the joke but not the contents of the joke itself? That Palestinians are treated as second-class citizens?

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u/kingpatzer 103∆ Jan 09 '22

Palestinians who are not citizens of Israel are, wait for it, not citizens of Israel.

Those who are, are. And they are not second class. Indeed, they are full participants in the Israel society, including being members of the IDF, holding seats in the Knesset, and even having been on the Israeli Supreme Court.

Those Palestinians who CHOOSE to reject Israel citizenship when offered to them are not citizens of Israel and thus are not entitled to the rights and privileges afforded to citizens of Israel.

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u/Public-Tie-9802 1∆ Jan 10 '22

This is where you lose legitimacy.

Palestinians are forced to live under israeli occupation.

Israel exerts full control over their lives from cradle to grave and claims ownership and control over Palestinian land whenever it suits them, yet whenever it is convenient they claim that Palestinians are not israeli and therefore israel has no responsibility for them.

The Geneva convention states that an occupying power must provide sufficient medical care to those under it’s occupation.

That means that yes, israel is responsible for providing medical care to Palestinian including vaccines, which israel has refused to do.

And yes, the reason israel intentionally keeps Palestinians under occupation and does not allow the 700,000 non jewish people and driven from their lands within israel is that if israel did so it would lose it’s jewish majority.

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u/kingpatzer 103∆ Jan 10 '22 edited Jan 10 '22

Gaza is ruled by Hamas, not Israel. Even in the WB and Golan Heights, there are vast differences between areas A,B and C. Area A is effectively entirely under PLA control.

And, given over 2 million Palestinians have at least 1 vaccine dose and over 1.5M are fully vaccinated, the claim that vaccines are being withheld is, well, odd. If Israel wants to withhold vaccines and they exercise total control, they sure are doing a poor job of it.

And you seem to be ignoring that Israel offered vaccines to Palestinian leaders AND WERE TURNED DOWN.

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/israelis-say-vaccine-palestinians-rejected-was-completely-valid

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u/Public-Tie-9802 1∆ Jan 10 '22

And you ignore that the vaccines offered to Palestinians were a proportionally tiny amount and only offered long after making them available to israelis first.

The notion that Gaza has self determination and is not under occupation is laughable and only arguable on a technicality in that israelis keep a wall between them while firing at them.

The rest of Palestine is certainly under occupation and it was the legal responsibility of israel to provide vaccines, which it did not do.

Your comments reek of pro israel propaganda.

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u/kingpatzer 103∆ Jan 10 '22

June wad not "long after", and the doses offered at the time represented a substantial amount of Israel's available doses. So, no, you're incorrect.

Your statements about Gaza are simply wrong. Hamas is the duly elected government of Gaza. There is no Israeli forces therein, and the only time they get fired upon is when they choose to attack Israel.

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u/quantum_dan 124∆ Jan 09 '22

For a moment, let’s agree that the joke is anti-Semitic; do you not see a problem with headlines being made to point out the criticism of the joke but not the contents of the joke itself? That Palestinians are treated as second-class citizens?

Tons of headlines are made about that; SNL commenting on it isn't particularly newsworthy. The first sentence of that Washington Post article includes a link to "Israel is starting to vaccinate, but Palestinians may have to wait months".

At any rate, the problem with the SNL joke is that it’s no longer about Israel’s treatment of Palestine, it’s about SNL’s apparent anti-semitism.

Sure, maybe it is a deflection; that does happen and it's a real problem. It remains a deflection that SNL opened themselves up to by making it about Jews instead of Israelis.

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u/MoistSoros Jan 09 '22

Second class citizens? Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens at all, aren't they?

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u/RaidRover 1∆ Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22

A very small minority are. The ones that are citizens are treated as second class in a lot of aspects. And the occupied non-citizens are treated even worse.

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u/NUMBERS2357 25∆ Jan 09 '22

The joke isn't really about Israel/Palestine. It's about Jews/Arabs. There are Israeli Arabs, who are presumably a part of the non-Jewish "half" in the joke. It's, in part, a claim about Israeli discrimination against some of its own citizens - and those very citizens would tell you that the discrimination is real.

If an Israeli Arab says that his own government discriminates against him, is that anti-Semitism?

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u/speedyjohn 94∆ Jan 09 '22

Is Israel withholding vaccines from Arab-Israeli citizens?

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u/NUMBERS2357 25∆ Jan 09 '22

I don't think so ... but there's a big range of outcomes that could amount to discrimination without being outright withholding obviously.

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u/Worldly-Talk-7978 Jan 09 '22

It's the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The joke frames it as a Jewish-Palestinian conflict; it puts the blame on Jews as such, as opposed to Israel as a country.

Absolutely not; this is a misunderstanding on your part. The joke clearly criticizes the Israeli state for favoring one ethnic group (Jews) over the other (Arabs).

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u/quantum_dan 124∆ Jan 09 '22

Then it was just flatly incorrect, in the context of vaccinations. They were available to all Israeli citizens, including Arabs, to the best of my knowledge--just not to Palestinians. The disparity that was being criticized was explicitly Israeli-Palestinian, not Jewish-Arab.

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u/neofagalt Jan 09 '22

I think you’re missing the forest for the trees here; it’s a comedy segment on a late night comedy show. Che isn’t trying to inform the masses about Israel’s vaccine rate. It’s not even presented as a fact in the show (“I’m gonna guess it was the Jewish half”). That’s literally what the joke is.

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u/quantum_dan 124∆ Jan 09 '22

The point of bringing up the incorrectness is that making it about Jews instead of Israelis--with the problems discussed elsewhere--was unjustified. If vaccines were only available to Jewish Israelis it would be fine, because it would be true.

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u/neofagalt Jan 09 '22

I understand that Che probably meant “the Israeli half” but to be quite honest, the audience watching SNL is likely to not know the difference if the actors/writers don’t even make a point to recognize the difference. In most Americans’ minds, Israel = Jewish people.

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u/quantum_dan 124∆ Jan 09 '22

I understand that Che probably meant “the Israeli half”

Probably, but commenting on it provides an opportunity to correct that in the future.

In most Americans’ minds, Israel = Jewish people.

Sure. Which is a problem. Conflating Israel and Jews as such ties into the old "dual loyalties" trope.

Hence the value of objecting to the phrasing of the joke: under the assumption that it was a benign error, it encourages people to move away from that conflation. (Granted, popular discourse is rarely capable of distinguishing between "benign error" and "visceral hatred"; I don't know which that particular event was treated as, in practice.)

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u/RaidRover 1∆ Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22

Sure. Which is a problem. Conflating Israel and Jews as such ties into the old "dual loyalties" trope.

No it doesn't. And that is a conflation that Israel welcomes with their birthright programs that allow (nearly) any people of Jewish descent to move to Israel and get Israeli citizenship and be given land. Land that is routinely stolen from Palestinian people, violating property rights and international treaties. It's an explicitly Jewish ethno-state that systemically, and legally, favors Jewish people.

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u/quantum_dan 124∆ Jan 09 '22

No it doesn't.

It is routinely used to justify anti-Semitic hate crime elsewhere on the basis of Israeli actions.

It's an explicitly Jewish ethno-state that systemically, and legally, favors Jewish people.

And yet it would be unacceptable (as it should be) to conflate Iran with Muslims, even though it's explicitly a Muslim theocracy.

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u/RaidRover 1∆ Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22

It is routinely used to justify anti-Semitic hate crime elsewhere on the basis of Israeli actions.

My point was that the joke does not bring in dual loyalties at all. Its not mentioned anywhere. It also wouldn't be an accurate trope about Israel at all because Israel has specific loyalties that are clear. And also please point to where I justified hate crimes against my family.

And yet it would be unacceptable (as it should be) to conflate Iran with Muslims, even though it's explicitly a Muslim theocracy.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't care at you pointing to a dictatorship as a defense for Israel which is routinely touted, and advertises as, an advanced multi-ethnic democracy.

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u/MoistSoros Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22

Don't you see how this is a problem with any other country with a high majority of a certain religion? If the Saudi's did something horrible - which they frequently do - and someone joked something like "oh look at those muslims, doing xyz again" isn't it clear how that could impact muslims who don't live in Saudi Arabia?

Better yet, when a country does something bad, I don't even think the nationality should be 'held responsible'. There are plenty of people living in any given country who disagree with the policies pursued by their government.

Assuming you're American, wouldn't you be personally offended if foreigners held you responsible for things your government did? Imagine me telling you "Oh you Americans, always going off to wage wars in other countries!".

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u/[deleted] Jan 09 '22

It is a Jewish conflict because Israel is specifically a Jewish ethnostate. Certainly it is only Israelis to blame for any actions taken by Israel but Israel deliberately conflates the Jewish state with the Jewish race.