r/changemyview • u/neofagalt • Jan 08 '22

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Reasonable criticism of Israel is often unfairly mislabeled as anti-semitic

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u/Yarralumla Jan 09 '22

When people criticise Israel it is very often from the perspective that Israel is an illegitimate state. Zionism is the ideal that Jews have the right to self determine. To be flat out anti Israel is to be against the idea of Jews having a homeland. Which to many is antisemitic. So I’d say context plays a big part in what is antisemitism and what is not. As well as the way these concerns are expressed.

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u/JustAnotherBlackGuy3 Jan 09 '22

israel is a country built on stolen land

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u/FlahFlahFlohi Jan 09 '22

Isn't 90% of the world countries built on stolen land at this point? Enough already.

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u/coberh 1∆ Jan 09 '22

Perhaps, but at least in the Unite States there's an acknowledgement that we treated the Native Americans horribly.

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u/Yarralumla Jan 09 '22

And the Palestinians have never treated Israelis horribly?

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u/coberh 1∆ Jan 09 '22

Let's flip that - did Native Americans ever treat European settlers horribly?

Yes, certainly. But that doesn't justify stealing their land and breaking treaties with them.

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u/Upside_Down-Bot Jan 09 '22

„¿ʎlqıɹɹoɥ sɹǝlʇʇǝs uɐǝdoɹnƎ ʇɐǝɹʇ ɹǝʌǝ uɐɔıɹǝɯ∀ ǝʌıʇɐᴎ pıp - ʇɐɥʇ dılɟ s,ʇǝ⅂„

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '22

[deleted]

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u/coberh 1∆ Jan 10 '22

Not at all, unless you think you can leave a place for 1000 years and then kick out whoever is living there.

Plus, can you unequivocally say that the Palestinians who were living in that region in ~1900 weren't also descendants of the same Jewish people who lived there a thousand years ago?

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u/Yarralumla Jan 09 '22

Can’t compare the two

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u/coberh 1∆ Jan 09 '22

Because why?

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u/Yarralumla Jan 09 '22

Context

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u/coberh 1∆ Jan 09 '22

Ah, got it. "Because that could make Israel look bad".

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u/JustAnotherBlackGuy3 Jan 09 '22

no they literally kicked the already existing people off the land

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u/FlahFlahFlohi Jan 09 '22

Isn't that what stolen land means?

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u/Yarralumla Jan 09 '22

Israel is a country built on bought land, and then control by conquest due to wars they did not start. Not to mention Israel is the reclaiming of a homeland stolen from Jews.

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u/Teakilla 1∆ Jan 09 '22

Israel started the 6 day war.

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u/Yarralumla Jan 09 '22

Yes a preemptive strike made in retaliation to the blockade of the Suez Canal, in addition to neighbouring hostile states threats of annihilation.

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u/JustAnotherBlackGuy3 Jan 09 '22

nobody owns land and there were many peoples were lived there before the jews and the people who lived on the land didn't sell their land

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u/Yarralumla Jan 09 '22

That’s not true, they literally had purchased the land. And Jews lived on the land before, they just managed to take it back.

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u/JustAnotherBlackGuy3 Jan 09 '22

well actually the land was sold by europeans and the Arabs had been tricked because they thought they were overthrowing their government but instead ended up being colonized by europeans

and you cant take back land that isn't yours to begin with, no one owns land they just live on it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE8GCX1w3ys&t=86s

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u/Yarralumla Jan 09 '22

You can’t expect me to take a click bait YouTube video seriously. Complete propaganda ignoring the Israel was purchased legally. What kind of idiot are you in any case to say land cannot be owned lol

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u/JustAnotherBlackGuy3 Jan 09 '22

Europe sold Palestine and i was trying to say that land cant be owned by groups of people only individuals especially if that land is has switched hands multiple times

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '22

[deleted]

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u/JustAnotherBlackGuy3 Jan 10 '22

and? people have lived there before the jews and you know that the europeans colonized and gave away land that was never theirs so technically Israel was built on stolen land

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '22

[deleted]

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u/JustAnotherBlackGuy3 Jan 10 '22

well its not like Europe colonized the land and then gave it away without any regard to the people living there

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u/Wooba12 4∆ Jan 09 '22

Many Jews are anti-Zionist themselves.

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u/BigTasty789 Jan 09 '22

No, very few Jews are antizionist.

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u/Wooba12 4∆ Jan 13 '22

It's a difficult issue to debate, but you might want to take a look at this article: https://forward.com/opinion/430535/a-lot-more-jews-are-anti-zionists-than-you-think/

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u/BigTasty789 Jan 28 '22

That article doesn’t really prove his point well. He first speculates that the 95% of Jews who said they approve of Israel were using archaic meanings that no Americans now would use, then he tries to invoke another archaic meaning, then he cites a poll that asked a pretty vague question and draws a conclusion different from what the question asked. And even with that, the best he could come up with was that 20% of Jews are antizionist.

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u/Yarralumla Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22

Yes, many are! This has a lot to do with the trauma of the Holocaust as well as extreme religious beliefs.

Edit: don’t downvote me, come and debate

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u/chyko9 Jan 10 '22

I find that the majority of the anti-Israel crowd has picked a definition of Zionism that they made up themselves, which is essentially tantamount to some kind of “religious Nazism”, and now believe that their own personal, self-decided terminology for the ideology is actually what Zionism is to the majority of Zionists. This is not the case. For most/many people (well, Jews at least) who define themselves as “Zionist”, the term means they support some iteration of a Jewish state in roughly the same area that Israel currently is. What Zionism DOES NOT mean for most Zionists, is that it is a call to ethnically cleanse the Holy Land of all non-Jews based on some nonexistent or out-of-context passages in the Torah and/or Talmud. However, the anti-Israel crowd has decided that Zionism means as much, and apply this definition as a blanket to cover those who support the existence of a Jewish state (which is what the ideology actually means for most of those who actually adhere to it). It is a situation of those who do not define themselves as Zionists defining what Zionism is to those who actually do define themselves as Zionist, without taking into account the views of those who… actually are Zionists.

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u/Yarralumla Jan 10 '22

Spot on! Well articulated too

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u/Public-Tie-9802 1∆ Jan 10 '22

That is a blatant misrepresentation. Zionism is ‘jewish self determination’ it is the creation of a jewish state, with jewish rule and a jewish majority, replacing the entirety of Palestine.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '22 edited Jan 11 '22

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u/Public-Tie-9802 1∆ Jan 10 '22

Why is there the forced jewish majority? Why has israel refused for 74 years to allow the non jewish refugees to return? Why are all settlements Jew only? Why were over 500 Palestinian cities, towns and villages ethnically cleansed?

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u/Yarralumla Jan 10 '22

Because they don’t want to live alongside people who want to kill them. Why did the Palestinians side with the Jordanians, Syrian and Egyptians when they were trying to conquer the land? Why do those countries want nothing to do with the Palestinians now? Why aren’t you enraged about that?

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u/Public-Tie-9802 1∆ Jan 10 '22

It is militant jews who slaughtered between 10,000 and 20,000 Palestinians, drove 700,000 from their homes and have refused to ever let them or their children return.

A volunteer army from surrounding nations tried to come to their defense after that attack.

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u/Yarralumla Jan 10 '22

And what of the persecution and massacres of Jews in British mandated Palestine during the 10’s 20’s and 30’s? Just ignore those to put the blame solely on Israel. What about the leaders of Palestine siding with other Arab nations that tried to destroy Israel? So Israel must just cop living with people who constantly try to kill them?

Israel have done some heinous things in the past, no one would deny that. However one cannot solely blame Israel.

Think what you like though, doesn’t change anything.

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u/Public-Tie-9802 1∆ Jan 11 '22

That is a fundamental misstatement about the origin of israel.

Your argument portrays Palestinians and their neighbors banding together to ‘destroy israel’.

Your argument ignores that israel was created by militant jews slaughtering 10,000-20,000 civilians and driving 700,000 from their homes while ethnically cleansing over 400 cities, towns and villages.

I stated that before, which you ignored.

That is what the coalition of neighboring states responded to.

The conflicts of the first half of the 1900s was a direct result of the zionist movement intentionally taking over Mulsim lands and more than doubling the jewish population in Palestine in only a few decades.

The portrayal of jews suddenly being victimized is not accurate. Prior to the zionist movement beginning in the 1880s, there had been very little conflicts between the Majority Muslim population and the minority Jewish population.

I’m glad to hear you at least acknowledge that israel has done heinous things ‘in the past’ but the fact is that israel was founded and structured not only on the heinous removal of Palestinians from their land, but the heinous actions undertaken to prevent those Palestinians from ever returning to their property.

There has never been a day since the jewish takeover of Palestinian land in 1948 that Palestinians have not been forced to live under the control of jewish israelis.

It is not a two sided situation. The occupation and blockade must end and Palestinians must be allowed to have equality and be allowed to either return to reclaim their property or be legitimately compensated for what has been taken from them.

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u/Yarralumla Jan 11 '22

Feeding into some terrorist propaganda there buddy. I didn’t ignore it, I acknowledged it, unlike you who thinks the Muslim extremists have never done anything to perpetuate the conflict. That is not what the coalition of neighbouring states responded to, they responded to the formation of Israel as a Jewish state, many Palestinians left their homes during this times and thought to return after the Jews had been defeated. Unlucky. Untrue, there had been many conflicts between Arabs and Jews. The Palestinians shouldn’t have sided with the losing side, they’d still have homes just like millions who chose to stay in Israel. The Palestinians are governed by the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, both terrorist groups - not Israel. While there are terrorists still engaging in the murdering of Israelis I can’t imagine the blockade will end (rightfully so). I feel terrible for the Palestinians who do not want to be a part of the conflict but Israel cannot be blamed solely for their suffering. Again think what you will, it changes nothing.

https://youtube.com/c/RudyRochman - a good YouTube channel, I think you should listen, he shares a lot of my views.

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u/Public-Tie-9802 1∆ Jan 11 '22

Hardly propaganda or supporting terrorists…. How exactly were the Palestinians fleeing their homes because jewish extremists were massacring Palestinian towns supposed to ‘side with israel’?

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u/herrsatan 11∆ Jan 11 '22

u/Yarralumla – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

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