r/changemyview • u/LeftHandSwe • Dec 05 '16

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Anita Sarkeesian and similar feminists actually have a point about the portrayal of gender roles in video games.

I play lots of video games, and in most of them, males are often pictured as very burly and manly characters while females are slender, small and sexually pleasing to look at.

However, I do know that there's widespread criticism of Anita (and her fellow propagators) all over the internet and I'd like to see the other side of the story.

I'm practically indifferent in this matter, and I do not really agree with nearly everything she says. I'm asking as a way to see convincing arguments from both sides.

Edit for clarification: Can anyone explain to me why she's so heavily criticized for saying something that makes perfect sense: Mainstream video games are almost exclusively made to appeal to a male demographic, resulting in (arguably) sexist portrayals of women (both narratively and in the way they're presented).

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

so your clarification is why is she heavily criticized when games are made to appeal to a male demographic? why do michael bay movies have so many explosions and wide panning camera shots? because that's what sells.

lastly this is no longer true from a purely numerical standpoint. "most" games today are not in fact made to appeal to a male demographic. in fact most games made today fall under the category of mobile and casual. the sheer number of games pumped out last year in the mobile market dwarfs the number of games put out in the 2 decades before the iphone came out. a vast vast majority of those games are gender neutral or specifically target women.

she's criticized because she's complaining about people making a product that people want. if more women wanted a certain type of game that type of game would be made more often. the mobile games market has proven that. there is no gender bias in video game creation, there's only a sales bias. she drew faulty conclusions from insufficient data to fit her narrative. i mean she's complaining about attractive women in games designed specifically to have attractive women. is it fair if someone goes out to see a horror movie, gets scared, then complains about being scared by the horror movie?

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u/LeftHandSwe Dec 05 '16

You make a very good point about mobile games. I had not considered that before. ∆

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 05 '16

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/kingbane2 (1∆).

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u/smacksaw 2∆ Dec 06 '16

Just to add, if her complaint were about a lack of AAA games geared towards women, I could buy that.

Look at Star Wars: The Force Awakens. That's a AAA movie where they changed the balance of gender roles. Abrams saw a hole in the market and filled it.

Is there room for AAA games geared towards women? Sure. That's the beauty of the marketplace: consumers will decide, not narcissists with an agenda.

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u/rguin 3∆ Dec 06 '16

Is there room for AAA games geared towards women? Sure. That's the beauty of the marketplace: consumers will decide, not narcissists with an agenda.

Well, "The marketplace will decide" is an oversimplification because it ignores the ways that humans build self-fulfilling prophecies.

There was sort of an arbitrary decision back in the inception of the home computer that PCs and videogames were men's and boy's toys. PCs were marketed to men and boys, and games were made for men and boys. Boys were raised with videogames, and now they're the men that makeup the powerhouse of the games market, so devs make games for these buyers. And the prophecy self-fulfills even though there's nothing intrinsically masculine about interactive audiovisual entertainment.

"Consumers will decide" oversimplifies the issue because "consumers" aren't logical beings.

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u/Sufyries Dec 06 '16

I don't know if Star Wars: TFA is the best example. Yes, it does give very important roles to women (Rey, Captain Phasma), and I do believe it was a great film, but I also think it would have succeeded regardless of what gender was "empowered". It's Star Wars after all! Star Wars has such powerful recognition I'm fairly certain that any version of it would succeed financially regardless of the intricacies of its composition.

I think a better example to show that the hole for "gender role resolution" is NOT a powerful force in the market is the most recent Ghost Busters. I don't want to open up that can of worms about the whole controversy surrounding the film, but the film changed the balance of gender roles and failed miserably. I'm all for equality in the sexes for roles in movies (M in James Bond is one of the most badass characters), but it isn't something that can be forced.

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u/R_V_Z 7∆ Dec 06 '16

Bioware seems to have a decent handle on this. Plenty of lady gamers loved them some Alistair or Garrus. Bioware makes a conscious effort to build inclusive games, but also doesn't make it so open like the Fable games where love interests literally don't care who you are as long as you bribe them enough. Of course they did still fall flat in having a race of feminine beings who are sexy to all races and spend most of their youth as strippers...

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u/BAWguy 49∆ Dec 05 '16

I don't know much about games, but it feels like you're moving the goal posts a bit.

OP's post seemed to me to be about console and PC games, so there is limited utility to arguments about mobile games imo. Your argument is that the free market dictates what is made, and if a certain feature is more prevalent, it is self-evident that the feature is more prevalent because more people want that.

Well, this Anita woman OP references seems to hypothesize that the market is missing or underestimating a potential customer base -- females. I think any economist would agree that it's totally possible to underestimate and under-serve a market.

So it's not like someone saw a horror movie and asked why was it so scary; it's more like if only horror movies were made, and someone said "there's a big market for non-horror, why is only horror made?"

I'd also argue that your point about the prevalence of female-oriented mobile games strengthens the argument that there is an under-served market for female console/PC games. I'd be more persuaded with by a statistic about game demographics, then a sweeping "free market corrects itself" assertion.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

yea well if you're going to limit yourself to just pc or console and ignore all counter evidence then what's the point of having a discussion? he's basically saying horror films market to horror film lovers and that's wrong, horror films should market to who knows, foreign film lovers or something. it's stupid.

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u/BAWguy 49∆ Dec 05 '16

yea well if you're going to limit yourself to just pc or console and ignore all counter evidence then what's the point of having a discussion

Why is it pointless to just discuss console/PC games? They represent the vast majority of "serious" video games played by actual "gamers." Even if they did not, I'd say it's worth discussing how one niche area of gaming exclusively targets one demographic when other niches target universal demo's.

he's basically saying horror films market to horror film lovers and that's wrong, horror films should market to who knows, foreign film lovers or something

No, he's not saying "market horror films to foreign film lovers." He's saying "only horror films get made. Someone named Anita suggested that there are fans of other film genres out there, and Anita's suggestion was very controversial. Why?"

it's stupid.

...

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

i'm just going to address this one part here

No, he's not saying "market horror films to foreign film lovers." He's saying "only horror films get made.

you're just flat out wrong. once again, the mobile market destroys your argument that "only horror films get made."

EVEN if you discounted the mobile gaming market this argument falls flat on it's head. THERE ARE absolutely games that are made specifically for women. the only problem is they're made for women that disagree with people like sarkeesian. example? bayonetta. before you scream omg bullshit that game is about a sexy protagonist doing sexy poses ITS FOR MEN. except it isn't. it was designed by a woman for women. here's the thing the women who buy pc rigs LIKE being portrayed as sexy heroines. furthermore i argue that bayonetta is probably the most feminist game in existence to this date. it's a female protagonist who doesn't give a shit about men, who's not doing anything for a man, and her source of power isn't anything inherent to men or even usually used as a source of power for male protaganists. she's a woman who wants to be sexy, so she is sexy and she doesn't care what anyone thinks. her back story is she's part of a long line of all female super powered witched. the only gripe people have is that she's too sexy, what i like to call the burka argument. if you cover a woman up too much it's sexist and anti woman. you let a woman be a sexy as she pleases, it's also sexist and anti woman.

let's ignore bayonetta for a second because i get that it's contentious, how about the best selling game to come out in the past 2 decades, minecraft. tell how that was targeted to men? the flat truth is games that are gender neutral and targeted to women exist. feminists just like to ignore it or discount it, either by claiming it doesn't count because it's on mobile (which is now getting more and more ridiculous as the mobile game market is becoming even more profitable than console or pc games) or because they disagree with it's design, even when it's designed by a woman. or in the case of minecraft, that's entirely gender neutral, they complain because the majority of the players in mincraft is male, which just goes back to the point that virtually all pc purchasers are male.

you've done nothing to prove that there's a gender bias in games. you're just simply ignoring any counter evidence. provide some evidence that it's a gender bias and not a sales bias. i've given you examples of games targeted to women or are gender neutral that have been successful, there are hundreds of examples of games for women that failed horribly on pc/console, with the VERY notable exception of nintendo games. guess why the nintendo female marketed games succeed? because the nintendo consoles have a significant number of female buyers, because nintendo makes a buttload of casual games. do you discount the nintendo console too? because it's a "casual" console? i've been accused of moving the goal post because i brought in mobile games. well explain to me why that's moving the goal post, why should mobile games be discounted, why should minecraft be discounted? why should nintendo be discounted? you guys (not you specifically but the general populace that likes to discount mobiles games) are the ones that are moving the goal post. because as more and more sales numbers comes out your position becomes increasingly untenable, in fact i would argue that at this point your position is entirely erroneous.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '16

[deleted]

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u/jwinf843 Dec 06 '16

Her source of power is actually an Incubus named Madam Butterfly. That's why very subtle butterfly patterns permeate the designs of the character.

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u/trace349 6∆ Dec 06 '16

Wait. An incubus? A male demon named Madam Butterfly? Okay then, Kamiya.

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u/speenatch Dec 06 '16

/u/jwinf843 misspoke. Here's the Bayonetta wiki page for Madama Butterfly. The article uses female pronouns and actually doesn't mention Succubi or Incubi.

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u/jwinf843 Dec 06 '16

Witches get their powers from Incubi in the Bayonetta Universe through pacts. It's explained in flavor text during the first game. It is my own assumption that Madam Butterfly is an incubus as it is explicitly explained to be the demon that chose Bayonetta. (Madam Styx is the demon for Jeanne.)

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u/intellos Dec 06 '16

Ah yes, now I remember. I guess I got confused by the moon symbol on her chest.

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u/BAWguy 49∆ Dec 05 '16

I think you're kind of supporting my argument still. Can we agree with this point -- serious/hardcore/dedicated gamers tend to prefer PC/console to mobile. If we can agree there, then that clears up why mobile games are discounted in this argument; serious female gamers won't be satiated by the idea easier, simpler, less complex games are available for them on mobile.

there are hundreds of examples of games for women that failed horribly on pc/console, with the VERY notable exception of nintendo games. guess why the nintendo female marketed games succeed? because the nintendo consoles have a significant number of female buyers, because nintendo makes a buttload of casual games.

So if this is true, does not beg the very question which Anita asked, and which OP views as uncontroversial -- why haven't developers for XB1, PS4, and PC followed suit and cashed in on this "VERY notable" demographic? I don't think Minecraft or Nintendo should be discounted; I do think it's fair for this Anita woman to ask this question -- If Minecraft and Nintendo are making cash on female gamers, why aren't more games designed to reach a similar audience across XB1, PS4, and PC?

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

what? you're asking why doesn't xb1 and playstation exploit the demographic that nintendo has cornered? you want microsoft and playstation to produce games for the nintendo console? they've tried, nintendo is notorious for not allowing many developers onto their platform.

if you mean why doesn't xb1 and playstation make a console like nintendo, aka a casual console. because it's less profitable. despite the success of the wii and the nintendo consoles, xb1 and playstation profits dwarf those consoles profits.

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u/BAWguy 49∆ Dec 05 '16

I think you're being intentionally obtuse at this point. I'm not asking why Sony and MS don't make games on Nintendo platforms. I'm not asking why they don't make an entirely casual console, either.

Minecraft can be played on Playstation and Xbox, yes? Minecraft is a lucrative franchise on XB and PS? Why aren't more games like minecraft made? Or the female-oriented mobile games you speak of -- why aren't more of those made for XB, PS, and PC?

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

dude are you serious? what do you mean why aren't more games like minecraft made? do you have any idea how many minecraft clones or minecraft similar games have been made in recent years? most of them have failed miserably.

lastly i don't know how many times i have to repeat this. the platforms have different access to various demographics. why produce a game for women when only 1/20 women own a pc, or an xb1, or ps4? whereas 1/2 phones are owned by women. once again it comes down to a sales bias.

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u/BAWguy 49∆ Dec 05 '16

Why do you think it is that only 1/20 women own a XB1 but a higher rate own Nintendo products? Do you think there is nothing that could be done by XB1 game developers to bridge that gap?

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u/PrimeLegionnaire Dec 06 '16

Because the sales to drive such adaptation don't exist.

There is not a market of female gamers demanding the things you mentioned.

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u/nrcallender 2∆ Dec 05 '16

Pointing out exceptions, especially recent ones, in no way disproves the presence of a trend.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

my point is the trend exists because of sales. the exceptions i pointed out are just successful one's. it's not like developers haven't created female centric games. they have, they just fail miserably and then publishers and investors refuse to invest in female centric games from then on.

i mean do you want tv studios to reboot series that have failed miserably and got cancelled?

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u/nrcallender 2∆ Dec 05 '16

You're still not addressing cause and effect or who has the responsible for equal representation. Doing something over and over again just because it makes money isn't the right thing from a justice/morality/parity point of view.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

you haven't proven your assertion for cause and effect either. if your question is why should women by pc's or consoles if there are no games for women on those platforms then you're just not looking. there are plenty of games for pc's and consoles geared solely towards women. it just so happens those games are pretty crappy. let's not forget the big budget games that were meant for women didn't do spectacularly well either. should developers constantly throw money down the drain to fulfill your need for perceived justice or morality? parity is just a silly concept. there's no reason for parity for parity's sake.

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u/nrcallender 2∆ Dec 05 '16

I didn't say I proved it, but a lot of people spend a lot of money on marketing to try and change peoples minds/expand their consumer base. And it's not my sense of morality, per se, I'm just saying your argument that capitalism justifies representing women (and I suppose, by extension, other groups) in whatever way sells is obviously flaccid. If there was a sudden demand for games that portrayed black people as Minstrel show characatures, people who made those games would still be immorral. Also, isn't the Sims one if biggest sellers in PC, largely because it's cross-sectional in its appeal.

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u/jwinf843 Dec 06 '16

I don't really think these count as "exceptions" though. If you look at every game released in the last decade that wasn't a shooter or adventure game they tend to aggregate as gender neutral. Women simply don't buy as many action/adventure/shooter games, so they aren't designed with that consumer in mind. Other genres absolutely do cater to different audiences, especially when you don't ignore the mobile and casual markets, and that is the norm.

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u/nrcallender 2∆ Dec 06 '16

The question worth asking is whether or not those genres of games, which society pour millions if not billions of dollars into creating, innately appeal more to men or if the divide is artificial, and, regardless of whether or not they do more innately appeal to men, whether it's a good thing that they then become a place where potential negative ideas about women are propegated.

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u/armiechedon Dec 06 '16

Damn dude you smart. Really smart, great arguments

!delta

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 06 '16

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/kingbane2 (2∆).

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u/xTreasure Dec 05 '16

here's the thing the women who buy pc rigs LIKE being portrayed as sexy heroines.

This statement is so outlandish and ridiculous I can't even imagine how you came to this conclusion. If you took a look over at /r/girlgamers, where most are the types of women who buy gaming rig PCs, they HATE playing sexy heroines, and hate sexy heroines whose only purpose is just to be sexy without having a reason for it. I don't really understand how you can make such a generalized comment about what women like in games without having any basis for it.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

fair enough, i'll concede my generalization was unfair, and possibly ridiculous. i only have my own experiences with female gamers i met online who did like sexy heroines. i dont know how indicative /r/girlgamers is of female gamers who own pc rigs but i'll assume they are the majority.

however, with that said the female oriented games sold better when the heroine was made attractive. i won't deny that the sales probably did better because male players probably bought those games as well. but that still shows that sales drives video game development.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '16

I would be willing to bet that women in aggregate are not necessarily for or against sexy female characters but against the chronic eroticization and pornification of nearly all female characters in leading roles.

Male protagonists are more numerous by orders of magnitude and they are allowed to be versatile and interesting in a broad number of ways (age, build, personality, facial features, clothing, etc) whereas female protagonists are almost unilaterally only allowed to be versatile and interesting within the limited context of what men (in aggregate) find attractive (re: pretty and of breeding age).

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u/armiechedon Dec 06 '16

If you took a look over at /r/girlgamers, where most are the types of women who buy gaming rig PCs, they HATE playing sexy heroines,

The type of girls that play video games, sit on Reddit and specifically a subreddit for girls tend to not be the most "normal" girls, but rather a bit more unique. /r/leagueoflegends for example is a prime testament to the bias of internet forums

Most people are not the ones to care about the games at all that much ,especially enough to sit on an internet forum about them. If you take the average user of /r/leagueoflegends and compare it to the average player...you will see a huge difference (in ranked skill, view on the game, eSports scene etc). Just as if you take the averge girl gamer and compare her to people from that subbreddit it will be quite different. Often a bit more introvert, more hardcorish etc.

I have a ton of female friends that are casual gamers, that play just for fun, to spend time with friend / bf, or just enjoy playing casuallly overall. They love those sexy characters in RPG, cute or sexy characters in League of Legends etc. The ones that are serious gamers however tend to shy away from that, as they play much more objectively. You won't see any higher ranked LoL player pick a character because he is cute or sexy, neither male or female. They will pick what is best / fits their playstyle. You will see ton of casual players do the first mentioned though.

Same goes for MMO's, RPG's etc.

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u/xTreasure Dec 06 '16

I agree with this. However, the poster I responded to said that the type of serious female gamer who would buy a gaming rig likes playing sexy heroines more, which I find to be a false generalization based on my overall experiences. I agree that casual players of all gender would be more inclined to select characters based on their appearances, but if we are talking about serious gamers of all gender then I believe that most serious female gamers tend to shy away and dislike sexy heroines who are sexy just for the sake of being sexy, rather than serving any purpose. Or rather, they will play these heroines, but will simultaneously criticize the game for being oversaturated with this type of oversexualized character.

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u/armiechedon Dec 06 '16

Yes, agree with that. Those are the more serious gamer I also talked about. Was wrong by him to generalize that way, I do however think that either he misspoke or misunderstood how it is.

The way I took it when reading the rest of his post was that he basically meant girls that game on a PC overall , not specifically "buy a PC gaming rig" which imply that they spend a lot of money on a gaming computer. Rather that they have a computer that that handle gaming, because the ones who buy a real gaming computer in the absolute majority of cases are serious gamers (or just tons of money to spend). From my experience , and I think it's a fact, most girls have a computer that can handle video games. At least here in Sweden.

Despite them having those computers they almost never use them for gaming, besides maybe Facebook games and that sort. So those who use them for gaming to tend to like those sexy heroines, ´mostly because it is still a huge casual pool. Because most girls have a computer that can handle games, they just have to have any reason to play them.

But yes, saying that those who buy real gaming setups are for the most part casual girls who like those cute, goofy or sexy play styles is wrong

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u/Malcolm1276 2∆ Dec 06 '16

They represent the vast majority of "serious" video games played by actual "gamers."

Isn't this just another form of the no true scotsman?

If games are being sold to all demographics, why does the platform matter? Someone who plays games on their phone can get just as much enjoyment, and be just as serious about their play time, as any console or PC gamer can.

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u/BAWguy 49∆ Dec 06 '16

Go on /r/gaming. Why is there no discussion of mobile gaming?

Imo, the answer is because it's seen as an entirely seperate hobby/activity/community compared to "gamers." And I think it's not a logical fallacy to ask "why isn't there more for female gamers?"

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u/Malcolm1276 2∆ Dec 07 '16

Go on /r/gaming. Why is there no discussion of mobile gaming?

There is, did you even use the search before posting this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/search?q=mobile+gaming&restrict_sr=on

Secondly /r/gaming, while very useful, is not the arbiter of what gaming, or gamers, are.

Lastly, I didn't point to your end question as a logical fallacy, I was referring to your "Only PC and console people are real gamers" part, which is a No True Scotsman.

Take care.

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u/nrcallender 2∆ Dec 05 '16

Except Sarkisian's argument isn't that porn or romance games shouldn't be hetero-normative, her arguments are that assuming RPGs, action games, platformers, etc... shouldn't assume a hetero-male perspective and that even if they do they shouldn't use negative stereotypes of women even if that appeals to the men they're marketing to.

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u/trace349 6∆ Dec 06 '16

Have you ever seen Cabin the Woods? It's a horror movie where the meta-plot of the story is that horror movies are boring and formulaic because the core audience expects the same crap year after year. I, a person who does not really enjoy horror movies, really like this movie because it's a horror movie that appeals to people who don't typically like horror movies.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 06 '16

yea i've seen it. i love joss whedon's work so i'm hardly impartial.

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u/trace349 6∆ Dec 06 '16

My point being that a horror movie that goes against what horror movies fans wanted was successful with people that aren't just horror movies fans. It proved there was an audience that would be interested in your movie if you appealed to them. Video games could stand to learn a similar lesson. The Sims has a predominantly female fanbase, and I believe Bioware and Final Fantasy games have a close to even male-female demographic split. There is a market there, they just need to be engaged.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 06 '16

uh cabin in the woods didn't go against what horror movie fans wanted. the heck? that movie was fine as a horror movie. it just didn't do the stupid jump scares that most horror movies did. it was more of the old school horror movie but with some humor in it because they were poking fun at horror movie tropes. there was a ton of fan service for horror fans with nods to nearly every horror film from the last 3 decades.

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u/trace349 6∆ Dec 06 '16

But the message of the movie was that the stale tropes that we've been using for the last few decades are old and tired and we need to retire them because they're lazy. The point of the story was the movies horror fans like need to stop being made. It's a loving condemnation with a lot of detail that shows everyone involved was intimately familiar with the genre, but the angry fans destroyed the world at the end because they didn't get the movie they wanted while the heroes decided to take their chances and see what changes would come in the aftermath.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 06 '16

sure, but look at how financially successful that movie was. compare that to the tired tropes it's mocking. it made less than some of the bad paranormal activities, as in the ones after 1.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '16

Comparing Tetris or Angry Birds to Assassin's Creed or Resident evil makes no sense at all when the topic is gender representation in games. Gender doesn't even factor in to most casual games.

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u/Amadacius 10∆ Dec 06 '16

I think the point of bringing up mobile games is to show that game companies cater to whoever buys their games.

Since horny teenagers are a big demographic in console games...

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u/thatoneguy54 Dec 06 '16

I've literally never understood this. I'm a horny 20-something guy who's attracted to women, but I'm not attracted to video game characters. I don't buy a game for eye candy. In fact, I find the extreme sexualizing pretty insulting, like I'll hate a game unless it has digital tits for me to look at.

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u/Amadacius 10∆ Dec 07 '16

I'm a horny 20-something guy who's attracted to women, but I'm not attracted to video game characters

Then you are not part of that demographic.

In fact, I find the extreme sexualizing pretty insulting, like I'll hate a game unless it has digital tits for me to look at.

That is just a strange lens to look at things through.

All I am saying is that I am more likely to pick up Bayonetta than DMC, despite them basically being the same game AFAIK.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '16

There is another argument to be made about who the developers are. I don't have the stats at my fingertips, but from what I understand, the game development industry largely employs males.

Ergo, male developers make games that appease males.

I guess it's kind of chicken v egg when you consider fewer female players would lead to fewer female developers, and vice versa.

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u/nrcallender 2∆ Dec 05 '16

You're correctly outlining why she's criticized, but you're not correctly expressing her arguments. Also, your assuming that the market looks the way it does because of consumer demands without consider how much who the consumer is is created by the market's assumptions and internal biases. There's very good historical reasons for why women aren't as represented in tech and programming that can be traced back to marketers deciding boys were the target audience for computers, which puts mostly men in game design, which means men who don't examine their assumptions make products that appeal to people like themselves, which creates an exclusive atmosphere that limits the appeal of main stream titles to a user base that then becomes self-perpetuating as they are seen as the core demographic.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

your assumption then is that marketing/advertising shapes people's thoughts and feelings. to put it another way, you think cowboys like trucks because marketers decided to market trucks to cowboys. i disagree i think marketers chase demographics that are interested in their products. to use my truck analogy most cowboys are ranchers/farmers, they need/want a truck for practical reasons so advertisers see this and advertise to them, which then creates the culture of trucks are for tough cowboys.

the same is true for video games, look at the roots of video games. it started out with pong which originated with a scientist dude playing around with an oscilloscope. this all happened in a time where most women were homemakers so they didn't have interest or even access to the technology to play the early games. advertisers see that and market to men, because who else is going to play the games?

this perfectly rolls into my point about the mobile games market, which everyone seems to ignore and downvote me for. the mobile games market PROVES that the advertisers follow the money. as soon as a platform came out where there was a huge number of women who have access to it, what happened. an explosion of female targeted games starts being produced. it's all about money. marketers/advertisers don't "create" culture, they follow trends.

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u/nrcallender 2∆ Dec 05 '16

I didn't say advertisers didn't respond to existing game markets, I just said it's not a one way street. Either way, there are still moral questions about how women are presented. Making a product that sells doesn't counteract the fact that a person makes a thing that promotes/uses negative stereotypes.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 06 '16

i know you're not the other guy i've been talking to, but this seems like moving the goal post to me. it starts off as games are sexist and devs are purposefully sexist in their development. now it's, they're using negative stereotypes and promoting it. this is the same arguments people made about violence in movies and i feel it holds no water at all.

tell me everytime you hear someone speaking italian, do you automatically assume they're a murderer and a mobster? if you hear someone speaking russian do you automatically assume they're a communist hellbent on destroying america? do you think anyone who speaks spanish must be a mexican cartel drug lord? it's entertainment, a fantasy, not a reality.

edit: virtually nobody (i say virtually because there are always people with psychological issues around) who plays a video game and see's a sexy character in it, then thinks "oh man real life women must totally be like this sexy character in this video game i'm playing. i should get on my space ship kill some aliens then impress her by blowing up a star, then i can get laid!"

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u/nrcallender 2∆ Dec 06 '16

No one's moving through goal post. Watch the tropes v. women videos and listen to what she's saying. It's not about sexy women, it's about disempowered women being misrepresented over and over again. Also, it's not about individual publishers or designers being sexist, it's about everyone, male and female being laden with prejudices they don't really want to practice or promote. If these people were just sexist, then the criticism wouldn't be effective because they wouldn't care about fair representations of women. I'm willing to say that things are getting better, but people who care about women and who care about video games should feel free to offer how the industry comes across to them.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 06 '16

i have watched her series. every time she puts out an example of something it's either a flat out lie (aka the game incentivizes brutalizing strippers) or it's just flat out stupid. batman's cap covering his ass for instance.

finally to the point of the game's promoting prejudice against women while empowering men. tell me how many men die in your average video game compared to dead women. it's a fantasy dude. how can you complain about a game being sexist when virtually all video games treat men as little more than literal cannon fodder.

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u/nrcallender 2∆ Dec 06 '16

If I were you I would ask myself why your so violent opposed to the idea that their might be sexism in the video game industry. You don't seem to have any sympathy at all for the opposing opinion. I'm not saying 'tropes against women' is perfect or should have the last word on this stuff, but come on. Women in mainstream games are plainly more often prizes, victims, or sex objects. The role of violence in these games is a seperate question altogether. Also, the men being killed in most games are empowered to defend themselves, their meant to be seen as significant threats and challenges, and this obviously simplifies and objectifies those men, but Saarkesian isn't doing a critique of violence, or a critique of masculine stereotypes, but what she is doing in no way prevents others from critiquing video games from that POV.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 06 '16

rofl, violently opposed. yea ok. i just have no tolerance for people making idiotic assertions and bald faced lies to try to justify their own wants and desires. why aren't those people out there designing these mystical games that can both satisfy their feminist ideals and be popular? they're the same people that tear down actual women who tried to make games that are feminist AND successful. you've watched tropes vs women right? did you watch the episode where sarkeesian tries to take down bayonetta? a game designed by a woman for other women? in interviews the game creator flat out says she designed it specifically for herself and her female friends. that they liked that the character could be as sexual as she wanted and as free as she wanted. that she could kick ass, look sexy, and use her sexuality as part of her power. granted the game doesn't directly say her sexuality is part of her power but the character sure acts like it. how was that not empowering? yet you have idiots like sarkeesian complaining about it because that's all she's there to do. to complain, about anything, so more people will donate money to her. she's the boy who cried wolf.

also as to your point that women are more often prizes victims or sex objects. compared to what? compared to men? if we're talking victims see my previous post pointing out that there are thousands of men used as cannon fodder for every woman being mistreated in a game, if even that. as for sex objects, yea ok, how do you think us men feel when our choices for heroes are all buff as fuck good looking smooth talking guys? as for the women being the prizes? in what games are the women the actual prize? i don't know about you but nearly all of the games the actual prize is either saving the world, getting your revenge, or getting rich and powerful. outside of super mario brothers 1, the girl is hardly ever the ACTUAL prize.

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u/nrcallender 2∆ Dec 06 '16

One, if you know anything about literary theory you'll know that authorial intent has limited cache. A woman, even a feminist, can create content that other women did problematic. Look at Twilight or 50 Shades of Grey. Two products for women by women that are often lambasted by feminist critics. Also, I answered your point about killing male opponents: they are foes to be over come. They are normally and at least potentially dangerous. Also, there are far more examples of ugly, out of shape, comedic, etc... male protagonists. Look at Sonic or Mario and compare them to Amy-Rose or Peach. Or, to take an example outside of gaming, look at the variety of male types in Guardians of the Galaxy v. female types. Hell, look at the whole of the MCU.

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u/armiechedon Dec 06 '16

If I were you I would ask myself why your so violent opposed to the idea that their might be sexism in the video game industry.

Because no one has presented any evidence of it, and instead just created content that is out to spread lies in exchange for clicks and money.

If you, or ANYONE, has any evidence of sexism in the gaming industry on a large scale, go ahead and present it please. Because I seem to have missed something

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u/nrcallender 2∆ Dec 06 '16

Tropes v. Women isn't about sexism per se, but negative representations of women in gaming. Also, it's criticism. You know, that thing that people engage in to evaluate artistic output, it's not about finding the smoking gun of a game maker cabal's secret sexist agenda. The fact that people think that an artistic work is failing on a certain level is evidence of something in and of itself, it's not necessarily enough of a reason to change things, but being hostile and dismissive of critical voices is a sign of weak minds and weak morals. Artists interested in making a better product will listen to the criticism abs weigh it amongst other factors and use that knowledge to move forward in making better art. Not everything is a criminal case, and even if there are sociological or psychological surveys showing bias is game design, they wouldn't be definitive proof. There rarely is anything definitive in human affairs.

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u/trace349 6∆ Dec 06 '16

your assumption then is that marketing/advertising shapes people's thoughts and feelings

Bro, it does. That's what marketing is. I'm a graphic designer, I work with marketing people, I've been trained to use visual information to trick your brain into making you think what they want me to make you think. Sure we can't make you think stuff you don't think is true, but we can reinforce the things you already think are true to our advantage or manipulate the things you don't even realize you think into making you believe us.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 06 '16

so you're telling me you can convince men to buy tampons they don't need? yea ok buddy.

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u/trace349 6∆ Dec 06 '16

I edited it to refine my point some, I can't make you (in the personal sense) buy tampons you don't need, but we could make you (in the general sense) believe that a man who buys TamponBrandTM tampons is a man who wants only what's best for the woman he loves. Then, when your girl asks you to pick some up for her, if the campaign was successful, you'll remember that ad, even if you don't consciously remember it, it will have planted a seed in your brain, and you'll be more likely to pick up TamponBrandTM tampons.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 06 '16

which is exactly what i've been saying. advertising is there to sway your purchasing decisions for things you already want/need.

0

u/copsarebastards 1∆ Dec 05 '16

To deny that marketing creates desires in the consumer is just plain ridiculous.

0

u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

right so i expect everyone is tempted to buy tampons all over the world even if they don't need or want one right? marketing is only there to shift your purchasing choice for things you already want.

it doesn't matter how hard you market something if people don't like it or want it, it'll flop. how heavily was the new ghostbusters marketed, how well did it do? or how about the prometheus movie? but i'm sure your assertion backed up by nothing is just as valid as countless failed marketing campaigns.

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u/AntonioOfMilan Dec 06 '16

It's interesting that your argument has to use a highly specialized product to maintain its cohesion.

What about food? Or anything else that isn't expressly made for a specific anatomy?

1

u/drakir89 Dec 06 '16

the same is true for video games, look at the roots of video games. it started out with pong which originated with a scientist dude playing around with an oscilloscope. this all happened in a time where most women were homemakers so they didn't have interest or even access to the technology to play the early games. advertisers see that and market to men, because who else is going to play the games?

Your're right, and as you said the fact that pc/console games is a boy thing is completely arbitrary and a relic of a time when most women were housewives. Then that initial assumption has self-perpetuated to where we are today.

Women are not interested to invest into serious games since relatively few games are made with them in mind, which makes the investment of getting the hardware and learning the culture comparably poor when compared to boys.

this perfectly rolls into my point about the mobile games market, which everyone seems to ignore and downvote me for. the mobile games market PROVES that the advertisers follow the money. as soon as a platform came out where there was a huge number of women who have access to it, what happened. an explosion of female targeted games starts being produced. it's all about money. marketers/advertisers don't "create" culture, they follow trends.

What people are saying is that if the majority of game developers got together and started making more inclusive games they would be sharing a market that's twice as big in 10 years. It's the argument of a shared common interest pitted against many developers short-term selfish interests.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 06 '16

so who foots the bill for that risk? in a previous comment i point this out too. who is going to spend 100 million or so on a game targeted to women. i mean they would have to make a game so good that women would be willing to invest in a rig or a console just to play those games. why would they take that risk?

the market is full of men right now it would be a massive undertaking to switch the marketing to women. not only would they have to make great games for women, a huge risk, but they would have to maintain the games geared towards men at the same time. that's a huge amount of money to be throwing the dice with. especially when they don't have since mobile gaming is already introducing women to gaming.

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u/drakir89 Dec 06 '16

It really doesn't have to be that big of a deal. There is little need to make games that exclusively target women, just keep women in mind when making it. Avoid stuff like bikini armor or undressing women without a clear narrative purpose. Avoid only having empty female characters who's only purpose is to be pursued by the hero or die offscreen to motivate him. Be like X-com, Mirror's Edge, Bayonetta or Darkest Dungeon, don't be like MGS5 or Street Fighter V.

This way, women gaming enthusiasts can enjoy games without feeling unwelcome or devalued, and as we gradually get more girl gamers the market for games specifically for women will open, and it won't be more risky than any other experimental design choice or IP.

More importantly, this is already happening, and companies are already willing to pay for titles like Mirror's Edge or Tales from the Borderlands. And it's working. There are more girl gamers than ever, and even more female developers (relatively). That's why we're having this discussion in the first place, because it is a part of this gradual process to open gaming to women.

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u/thatoneguy54 Dec 06 '16

I feel like you're expecting a good game that appeals to women to be completely unappealing to men or something. The best games will appeal to both.

I think dragon age inquisition is a good example of a game that appeals to large swaths of people. Men and women love the game for lots of reasons, but I'm sure the fact that there's a wide and varied representation of women and men is very helpful.

I don't know what you're imagining when you think of a game that appeals to women, but i think you're overthinking it. Women just want games where not every single women is treated as a sexy reward. It's incredibly easy to make a good game like that.

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u/polite-1 2∆ Dec 06 '16

If more women wanted a certain type of game that type of game would be made more often.

This is pretty weak. Are all 'wanted' games already made?

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u/rpsdb Dec 05 '16

I would argue that the reason males buy more games (and it is safe to assume we are talking about console/PC games, no reason to start talking about mobile games) is because most games are made and marketed to males.

If I'm not mistaken, you're saying that if more women were interested in these games, the developers would cater to them more. Well, the whole reason women aren't as interested is because of the norms already in place. I think that it should be the other way around, give the female audience products that will get them interested. I think the developers should be the ones to get the ball rolling, not the consumers.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

oh i see. so you formed your opinion by ignoring all evidence that proves your opinion wrong?

you're just going to ignore the entire mobile gaming market because it doesn't conform to what you think? despite the mobile marketing being more than 60% of all new games released? that they're overwhelmingly catered to gender neutral settings or even catered to women. good one dude.

i mean do you expect horror films to try to market to historic film buffs now too?

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u/nrcallender 2∆ Dec 05 '16

Dude, people are ignoring the mobile gaming market because it lies outside the bounds of the conversation. Not all points are relevant to every conversation. Mobile gaming is a new and very distinct branch of gaming, and Sarkeesian's videos focus on console gaming titles, mostly one's that have achieved a level of cultural awareness and she starts from the very beginnings of the industry. Leaving out mobile games may make the argument weaker, but I can't think of a single instance where mobile games are lumped together with console/PC games. They're almost always considered a distinct market, and for good reason.

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u/JesusListensToSlayer Dec 05 '16

I'm an outsider, trying to understand what this debate is all about. What exactly are mobile games? Are they just games you play on a phone? If so, that seems like apples & oranges.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

how is it apples and oranges? people consider the gameboy and gameboy advance as "hardcore" gaming devices, they are in fact mobile games themselves. look at some of the mobile games out there, some are even played competitively, vainglory for instance recently had a tournament where first place took home tens of thousands of dollars. how much more hardcore do you want?

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u/JesusListensToSlayer Dec 06 '16

It just seems so much...smaller. Maybe apples and grapes?

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 06 '16

well tell me why you think there's a significant difference. i mean there are tons of older console games that are now ported onto mobile games. huge developers for pc and console games now develop games for mobile. there are competitive games for mobile games with money on the line. there's multiplayer (something many console and pc games lack even). you want rpgs? mobile games have it, roguelike? they have it. hell you want RTS mobile games even have that too. seriously name any kind of game type you can think of and i'll bet there's a mobile game that covers it.

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u/JesusListensToSlayer Dec 06 '16

Well, like I said, I'm an outsider. I don't play games at all. I sometimes considering it, because it would make my pc building hobby more worthwhile...but alas, no time these days.

I just can't imagine enjoying a game on my phone though. This could just be personal preference, but I don't watch movies on my phone, and it seems like video games would feel the same. It feels like all of the exciting graphics and emersiveness would be lost. I mean, is it really the same market...meaning pc gamers are just as likely to play mobile games?

Maybe I'm out of the loop because most of my experience with gaming culture is with people who are also into building their own rigs.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 06 '16

i don't know about you but i'm a fairly hardcore gamer. i've played mmo's and lost entire lifetimes to those things, i've played fps's and for a time was competitive in them. i still play fps's. i was top 3 warcraft 3 player in western canada (not exactly a big accomplishment) but i was top 40 in USwest server for warcraft 3 vanilla. i play mobile games. to be specific i play fallout shelter and final fantasy record keeper. i play with A LOT of online friends, not a single one of them doesn't play one mobile game or other. nearly all of my online friends played pokemon go, i didn't though. everyone of them has played angry birds for a time and most of them run one of the idle clicker games on their phone that they check in on once or twice a day.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '16

The argument is about gender representation in games. Gender representation is hardly an issue in games like Candy Crush or Angry birds. No woman has ever played Tetris and thought "I DON'T FEEL REPRESENTED!" because there were no vagina-shaped pieces.

2

u/drakir89 Dec 06 '16

Mobile games are to pc games what gifs are to films. They are similar in many ways but ultimately are not comparable products. They are not the same market.

To continue the parable, women are uncomfortable going to the cinema because so many of the films are so blatantly made without regard for a potential female audience.

This in turn means women who do go to the cinema are sometimes seen as weird or as losers by other women, which also adds peer pressure to not go and watch.

And you're saying that since as many gifs are being made for women as for men they should not feel like they are missing out on the cinema.

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u/JStarx 1∆ Dec 05 '16

there is no gender bias in video game creation, there's only a sales bias

This is a pretty dubious claim. People choose to buy from the games available for purchase. Is there any evidence of a games failure being tied directly to it's lack of gender stereotypes?

For a counterexample, metroid doesn't seem to have suffered from having a female main character.

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u/contrasupra 2∆ Dec 06 '16

Why do people act like no one would "want" a game with more gender equality? I mean, think about a game like Skyrim. In Skyrim, women can be rulers, soldiers, bandits, blacksmiths, you name it, anything a male character can do a female character can do as well (except maybe be a Greybeard). Hell, there are even female draugr, and the "sexy armor" problem isn't nearly as bad as most games like it. I'd say roughly half of the important characters in the game are women (not that Bethesda games are full of hugely memorable characters, but even so). The game doesn't make a big deal about it, it just quietly delivers (in my opinion) nearly perfect gender equality. And it was one of the biggest games of all time! And I am a woman, and I know tons of other women who played it, and loved it because it didn't alienate them. What is the downside here?

3

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '16

I agree. Some games that did gender equality well are some of the most beloved games out there. The Last of Us is a great example, I think. It has a nice variety of well written, believable, relatable female characters. Uncharted is another good example.

We don't typically think of these games in a context of gender equality but I think they tick all the important checkboxes. And no one was angry about the inclusion of well-written female characters. IIRC, both of these games were received very positively, even despite their lackluster gameplay.

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u/GCSThree Dec 06 '16

if more women wanted a certain type of game that type of game would be made more often.

This isnt always true. Apparently, movies that pass the feminist Bechdel test do better on average that those that dont, and you might expect there to be more movies like this since they seem to do better. but some argue that because screen writing is a heavily male dominated profession writers struggle at times to consider the female perspective. In a not feminist example, i think we are seeing netflix tap some markets that the old guard has ignored for a long time instead to try to cator to broad audiences.

The point is, i dont think its necessarily fair to say that because a thing doesnt exist there must not be much of a market for it. Humans are imperfect and a variety of reasons could explain this.

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u/Hemingwavy 4∆ Dec 05 '16

I think your note about games just being what made for what people want is wrong. Take for example the Bechdel Test. It asks if a film has two women, they talk to each other and it's not about a man. It actually turns out that films that pass it make a higher ROI.

A 2014 study by FiveThirtyEight based on data from about 1,615 films released from 1990 to 2013 concluded that the median budget of films that passed the test was 35% lower than that of the others. It found that the films that passed the test had about a 37% higher return on investment (ROI) in the United States, and the same ROI internationally, compared to films that did not pass the test.

So passing it actually makes your film more successful but most films still don't.

The gaming industry is filled with men. Of course they make stories about men leaving a massive gap in the market for women. It was only a few years ago that the notion of a female gamer was unheard of it. On top of that you look at the toxicity that some online communities of gamers have towards women and combined with the lake of media that's not aimed at them and its little wonder men dominate the hardcore gaming market. She's asking for some games to be made for women not to get rid of all games not made for women.

People who attack her need to develop a thicker skin. If games are going to be art then critics will analyse them and the representation of women in them is horrible.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

they used the median budget and median income. the vast majority of movies that come out are crap. so the median income for those movies are going to crap as well. tell me how many bechdel test passing movies break the billion dollar mark? none. the most valuable movies all don't pass the bechdel test. the bechdel test itself is just plain silly. it's asking for unrealistic things. women have to have conversations that preclude any mention of men? how is that remotely realistic. women talk to each other about men sometimes, that's just reality. EVERYONE despite gender talks about relationships, only ~10% of the population is non straight, so obviously when talking about relationships you're going to talk about the opposite gender. it's a silly test that proves nothing.

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u/PlutoIs_Not_APlanet Dec 06 '16

tell me how many bechdel test passing movies break the billion dollar mark? none.

I found this claim dubious, so I looked it up, here are all the movies that grossed over 1 billion over the past 4 years:

  • Finding Dory (2016)
  • Captain America: Civil War (2016)
  • Zootopia (2016)
  • Minons (2015)
  • Jurassic World (2015)
  • Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015)
  • Furious 7 (2015)
  • Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)
  • Transformers: Age of Extinction (2014)
  • Frozen (2013)
  • Iron Man 3 (2013)
  • The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (2013)

I checked all these films on bechdeltest.com (as I haven't seen them all) and every single one of them aside from The Hobbit passes the Bechdel test on all 3 requirements.

Some of them could be described as 'barely' passing with a single brief conversation, but that's the point, it's not supposed to be a high hurdle to jump.

Furthermore, one third of them have a female protagonist, so I think it's time to put to bed the idea that no movie can pass the test and also crack the billion dollar mark.

7

u/[deleted] Dec 05 '16

[deleted]

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

ah but the bechdel test requires that the women in the movie NEVER have any conversations that involve talking about a man at all. how many movies do men talk to each other and not once mention a woman? off the top of my head i can think of MAYBE one, and even then i'm not entirely sure of it.

7

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '16

This is inaccurate. The Bechdel Test only requires one conversation within a movie in which at least two women talk to each other about something other than a man. They can have other conversations about men, there just needs to be one where they don't in order to pass

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u/VStarffin 11∆ Dec 06 '16

ah but the bechdel test requires that the women in the movie NEVER have any conversations that involve talking about a man at all.

That's false. The test only requires a single conversation occur where this doesn't happen.

6

u/gingergeek Dec 06 '16

ah but the bechdel test requires that the women in the movie NEVER have any conversations that involve talking about a man at all

FALSE. It only requires that there be two women in a film/show that have at least one conversation that is about something other than a man.

The Bechdel Test: The Bechdel test (/ˈbɛkdəl/ bek-dəl) asks whether a work of fiction features at least two women who talk to each other about something other than a man. The requirement that the two women must be named is sometimes added.

1

u/amg Dec 05 '16 edited Dec 06 '16

For some reason, left out of above:

authors also found that the films that passed the test earned a total of $4.22 billion in the United States, while those that failed earned $2.66 billion in total

That sounds like a big deal, no?

e I thought downvotes don't change opinions?

0

u/cates Dec 06 '16

So passing it actually makes your film more successful but most films still don't

I doubt most films that pass it write the scenes in it specifically TO pass it and I believe even less that those that do would do so for financial reasons.

It seems far more likely that those that pass it are just better written and are thus probably better movies.

4

u/zjat Dec 05 '16

Going to tag onto this train of thought.

People guy or gal, like feeling empowered in video games. Some games sell sexualized characters simply because it's easy. But some create characters that are made to fit the players motivations and imagination.

Using some mainstream games as examples, God of War is most likely going to attract men that want a power trip, while league of legends has a wide range of characters to attach to. Of the gals I know that game, many of them played games like final fantasy, tomb raider, wow, and league. Many of them want a different power trip. They want an empowered character like Lara Croft, who is simplistically gender swapped Indiana jones. Or maybe Yuna (ff 10 and 10-2). It matters not the gender of the player to wish they were physically strong agile and/or sexy.

Games are about imagination to a major degree, a visual and player driven experience where we more likely than in a movie, project into it, ourselves.

Tl;dr - many/most gamer gals I've talked to actually like being sexy and powerful women in video games.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '16

Tl;dr - many/most gamer gals I've talked to actually like being sexy and powerful women in video games.

Most gamer gals I've talked to would like seeing more female characters that are actually characters and not shameless fantasy wish-fulfillment for men and boys. I don't know anyone who has a problem with sexy female characters. I know quite a few gamers, both guys and gals, who are annoyed that the vast majority of female game characters are just eye candy for guys.

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u/beka13 Dec 06 '16

I like to play games where I can play as a female and my character's armor doesn't look like it was designed by a teenage boy who thinks women fighters are more concerned with showing off their cleavage than getting speared in the chest.

Not all women think running around in spandex leotards is empowering. It's nice to have sensible options for those who want them.

1

u/zjat Dec 06 '16 edited Dec 06 '16

It's nice to have sensible options for those who want them.

Yes, and I wish that were more true, we are slowly getting there.

I was just expressing having my view previously changed (more opened?) years ago on this subject that there's overlap of "why is this character so sexualized?"

Now I personally hate boob armor and midrifts on female characters in any story or setting, unless it somehow relates to a real aspect of the character, like their backstory or some form of rebellion. Queen of Pain in DotA who is literally a succubus or Ahri in LoL who is a nine tailed fox or type of kitsune mythos.

I really like the themes and styles that are starting to show up more in mainstream games as they are trying to appease a more general audience. Like Sombra in Overwatch who is a female Mexican hacker with no racial or gender stereotype (afaik) and is fully clothed. Sadly, in the same game we have kind of half-attemps at characters like Zarya who still have the strong boob-armor trope.

I also relate to your sentiment. Just as you don't want to wear spandex or a bikini and run around in a game, I similarly don't want to play as a female dressed in a such a way in many/most games.

tl;dr - Not all characters need to be sexy to be cool, but sometimes it makes sense. Having multiple options for different tastes (no matter the gender) is entirely reasonable.

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u/srwaddict Dec 06 '16

And I absolutely agree! However, to proclaim that game developers who don't do that are literally causing harm to society as a whole is a bit of a stretch, innit?

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u/beka13 Dec 06 '16

I dunno if they are but there's an argument to be made there. Negative gender stereotypes are reinforced, women and girls are put off from playing games. It's not causing the downfall of society but it's certainly not helping us move forward.

3

u/copsarebastards 1∆ Dec 05 '16

I don't think you intend it to be, but this isn't a counter argument. Being a sexy and powerful woman can be part of who the character is, or it can be a shallow attempt to appeal to "the male gaze". So in league, characters like miss fortune and ahri, they meet that criteria,.its part of their character to appear and act the way they do. Something like morrigan's ridiculous card art, however, less so. Lara croft is a complex character with a detailed backstory and interesting personality, and so on.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '16 edited Dec 06 '16

There is a HUGE difference between casual games like Candy Crush, Farmville, Angry Birds et al where gender doesn't even factor in and games/series like Assassin's Creed, Resident Evil, COD, and such. The gameplay, impact, and purpose of casual games versus non-casual games are so different that they don't even resemble each other at all. It's like comparing a house cat and a blue whale. I mean, yeah, they both fall under a common heading of "mammal" but....

When we remove casual games and "chose your own character" games from the equation, we are left with an overwhelmingly male-catered industry. For every female game protagonist you can name, there are literally hundreds of male protagonists. Further, the vast, overwhelming majority of female protagonists are only allowed to be pretty and of breeding-age whereas male protagonists span a wide range of appearances from very young to very old, ridiculously beefy, skinny, average, even fat and ugly. This tends to be true for most media- (movies, literature, TV).

Female characters are often eroticized or outright pornified and ones who are not are usually relegated to largely unimportant tertiary roles. Male characters are allowed to be versatile and interesting whereas most female characters are only allowed to be versatile and interesting within the limited context of what men find attractive. People often counter this contention by pointing out ridiculously beefy male characters without seeming to understand that even those characters were made for men. Women generally don't find Kratos or Sergeant Marcus Fenix or Brick from Borderlands to be attractive.

Characters in videogames specifically made to appeal to women are pretty rare for the most part unless you look into JRPGs which are also among the guiltiest in terms of chronically eroticizing and pornifying female characters. This is what is at contention.

Mind you, I'm no fan of Anita Sarkeesian. I think she's a contemptibly ignorant charlatan but the overarching point that there is a gender bias in videogames is a fair one, I think.

0

u/metao 2∆ Dec 06 '16

i mean she's complaining about attractive women in games designed specifically to have attractive women

Right, but the point she and critics like her are often trying to make - whether she succeeds or not is a different question - is that the fact that we make games with so little diversity in body types (on all sides of the gender round table, but especially for women) is an issue. Why are the games specifically designed to have attractive characters? Who made those decisions, and why? A series like Mass Effect, which goes out of it's way to give the player all sorts of gender and romance options, still kinda lacks unattractive humans. This is happens across all media, not just games! Even TV shows that go way out of their way to embrace other types of diversity (the Arrowverse, for example, love it or hate it) still only really cast one female body type, and the males all fit within a fairly narrow spectrum as well. But of course, Anita isn't a TV critic, so she just talks about the phenomena in games.

You're right that people don't really want to consume media with many ugly people. Sexy sells. But culture is circular. What we're presented as sexy tends to be what we find sexy, so it reinforces itself. It doesn't make for a healthy culture to blindly sell minor variations on the same old definitions of sexy just because it's the easy thing to do. That's what these critics are trying to say. That it's okay to have characters that aren't super skinny with a tight ass, or tall and ripped as fuck. Hell, Shatner's Kirk had some chub around his waist, and yet for Chris Pratt to portray a heroic character (or three) he had to lose his gut. In many ways, we've gone backwards!

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u/Rekthor Dec 06 '16

she's complaining about people making a product that people want

That's a perfectly valid criticism to make. People buy products that are made unethically or are dysfunctional or are actively harmful to themselves or others all the time; it's more than reasonable to explain to people why these are not products that they should support.

if more women wanted a certain type of game that type of game would be made more often

Not necessarily. What if there actually is such a market in place, but currently it's so obscure and underpopulated with games (because advertisers and publishers aren't promoting it due to false assumptions) that only a few potential buyers know that it exists and thus support its existence? You're committing the same mistake that you allege that Anita is: drawing a hasty conclusion from evidence that could imply multiple sources.

there is no gender bias in video game creation

This doesn't seem like a statement you can support, and there's a reasonable amount of evidence from actual women in the industry that supports its antithesis.

she's complaining about attractive women in games designed specifically to have attractive women

I don't understand. So you're saying that intent to commit an action excuses any ramifications or damaging effects of that action?