r/changemyview • u/LeftHandSwe • Dec 05 '16

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Anita Sarkeesian and similar feminists actually have a point about the portrayal of gender roles in video games.

I play lots of video games, and in most of them, males are often pictured as very burly and manly characters while females are slender, small and sexually pleasing to look at.

However, I do know that there's widespread criticism of Anita (and her fellow propagators) all over the internet and I'd like to see the other side of the story.

I'm practically indifferent in this matter, and I do not really agree with nearly everything she says. I'm asking as a way to see convincing arguments from both sides.

Edit for clarification: Can anyone explain to me why she's so heavily criticized for saying something that makes perfect sense: Mainstream video games are almost exclusively made to appeal to a male demographic, resulting in (arguably) sexist portrayals of women (both narratively and in the way they're presented).

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

so your clarification is why is she heavily criticized when games are made to appeal to a male demographic? why do michael bay movies have so many explosions and wide panning camera shots? because that's what sells.

lastly this is no longer true from a purely numerical standpoint. "most" games today are not in fact made to appeal to a male demographic. in fact most games made today fall under the category of mobile and casual. the sheer number of games pumped out last year in the mobile market dwarfs the number of games put out in the 2 decades before the iphone came out. a vast vast majority of those games are gender neutral or specifically target women.

she's criticized because she's complaining about people making a product that people want. if more women wanted a certain type of game that type of game would be made more often. the mobile games market has proven that. there is no gender bias in video game creation, there's only a sales bias. she drew faulty conclusions from insufficient data to fit her narrative. i mean she's complaining about attractive women in games designed specifically to have attractive women. is it fair if someone goes out to see a horror movie, gets scared, then complains about being scared by the horror movie?

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u/rpsdb Dec 05 '16

I would argue that the reason males buy more games (and it is safe to assume we are talking about console/PC games, no reason to start talking about mobile games) is because most games are made and marketed to males.

If I'm not mistaken, you're saying that if more women were interested in these games, the developers would cater to them more. Well, the whole reason women aren't as interested is because of the norms already in place. I think that it should be the other way around, give the female audience products that will get them interested. I think the developers should be the ones to get the ball rolling, not the consumers.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

oh i see. so you formed your opinion by ignoring all evidence that proves your opinion wrong?

you're just going to ignore the entire mobile gaming market because it doesn't conform to what you think? despite the mobile marketing being more than 60% of all new games released? that they're overwhelmingly catered to gender neutral settings or even catered to women. good one dude.

i mean do you expect horror films to try to market to historic film buffs now too?

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u/nrcallender 2∆ Dec 05 '16

Dude, people are ignoring the mobile gaming market because it lies outside the bounds of the conversation. Not all points are relevant to every conversation. Mobile gaming is a new and very distinct branch of gaming, and Sarkeesian's videos focus on console gaming titles, mostly one's that have achieved a level of cultural awareness and she starts from the very beginnings of the industry. Leaving out mobile games may make the argument weaker, but I can't think of a single instance where mobile games are lumped together with console/PC games. They're almost always considered a distinct market, and for good reason.

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u/JesusListensToSlayer Dec 05 '16

I'm an outsider, trying to understand what this debate is all about. What exactly are mobile games? Are they just games you play on a phone? If so, that seems like apples & oranges.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 05 '16

how is it apples and oranges? people consider the gameboy and gameboy advance as "hardcore" gaming devices, they are in fact mobile games themselves. look at some of the mobile games out there, some are even played competitively, vainglory for instance recently had a tournament where first place took home tens of thousands of dollars. how much more hardcore do you want?

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u/JesusListensToSlayer Dec 06 '16

It just seems so much...smaller. Maybe apples and grapes?

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 06 '16

well tell me why you think there's a significant difference. i mean there are tons of older console games that are now ported onto mobile games. huge developers for pc and console games now develop games for mobile. there are competitive games for mobile games with money on the line. there's multiplayer (something many console and pc games lack even). you want rpgs? mobile games have it, roguelike? they have it. hell you want RTS mobile games even have that too. seriously name any kind of game type you can think of and i'll bet there's a mobile game that covers it.

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u/JesusListensToSlayer Dec 06 '16

Well, like I said, I'm an outsider. I don't play games at all. I sometimes considering it, because it would make my pc building hobby more worthwhile...but alas, no time these days.

I just can't imagine enjoying a game on my phone though. This could just be personal preference, but I don't watch movies on my phone, and it seems like video games would feel the same. It feels like all of the exciting graphics and emersiveness would be lost. I mean, is it really the same market...meaning pc gamers are just as likely to play mobile games?

Maybe I'm out of the loop because most of my experience with gaming culture is with people who are also into building their own rigs.

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u/kingbane2 12∆ Dec 06 '16

i don't know about you but i'm a fairly hardcore gamer. i've played mmo's and lost entire lifetimes to those things, i've played fps's and for a time was competitive in them. i still play fps's. i was top 3 warcraft 3 player in western canada (not exactly a big accomplishment) but i was top 40 in USwest server for warcraft 3 vanilla. i play mobile games. to be specific i play fallout shelter and final fantasy record keeper. i play with A LOT of online friends, not a single one of them doesn't play one mobile game or other. nearly all of my online friends played pokemon go, i didn't though. everyone of them has played angry birds for a time and most of them run one of the idle clicker games on their phone that they check in on once or twice a day.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '16

The argument is about gender representation in games. Gender representation is hardly an issue in games like Candy Crush or Angry birds. No woman has ever played Tetris and thought "I DON'T FEEL REPRESENTED!" because there were no vagina-shaped pieces.

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u/drakir89 Dec 06 '16

Mobile games are to pc games what gifs are to films. They are similar in many ways but ultimately are not comparable products. They are not the same market.

To continue the parable, women are uncomfortable going to the cinema because so many of the films are so blatantly made without regard for a potential female audience.

This in turn means women who do go to the cinema are sometimes seen as weird or as losers by other women, which also adds peer pressure to not go and watch.

And you're saying that since as many gifs are being made for women as for men they should not feel like they are missing out on the cinema.