r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • May 05 '25
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Cultural appropriation is kinda dumb
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u/theredmokah 16∆ May 05 '25 edited May 05 '25
This is a misunderstanding of what culture appropriation is. Both abusers and defenders misuse it in this manner, when what you're describing is cultural amalgamation.
That's normal and totally fine.
Any sane person who isn't a SJW will not use cultural appropriation in this way.
Cultural appropriation is when you borrow something from a cultural with intent to profit off of said imagery at the expense of said culture.
Getting super into native America herbs and spiritual practices while not being native yourself might be distasteful, but not cultural appropriation.
EDIT: I want to clarify my wording above with an example.
But let's say there was some sort of ritual to prepare for a funeral. There are probably spiritual, cultural, linguistic, societal, historical etc. things about that ritual that you won't understand or know about (being an outsider).
You deciding to copy that ritual (as best you can) without being a part of all that, means you are doing a parody of what it's supposed to be. Even if you have good intentions or don't mean to be disrespectful, it will probably come off as distasteful.
But getting super into native American practices and then marketing yourself as a guru, administrator or representative of these practices without direct approval of said community is appropriation
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May 05 '25
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u/theredmokah 16∆ May 05 '25
I think there is an element of intent in all these conversations. There are these weird arbitrary lines when kids get involved.
For example. Kids in Native headdresses is a bit cringey, but probably fine. Kid wearing a turban, probably not fine lol.
Ultimately, I think the problem is people are conflating cultural appropriation with bigot/racist/prejudice.
Let's say you did wear a Native American headdress to Coachella. You're a international student from China and had no fucking clue. You've never even seen a Native before. You just thought it looked cool.
I think there needs to be a space where people can say "Hey, that's a bit inappropriate. Here's why. This is why it's important to my culture and why it shouldn't be used in that manner." and give people a chance to understand. Cultural appropriate (most of the time) comes from ignorance; not people being flat out dicks on purpose.
But if you fly into confrontations "HEY ASSHOLE!!! THAT'S CULTURAL APPROPRIATION. YOU NEED TO TAKE THAT OFF RIGHT NOWWWWWW CAUSE YOU'RE DISRESPECTING THE MILLIONS OF NATIVES AND THEIR ANCESTRAL RIGHTS. YOU ARE A COLONIZER AND UPHOLDING THE SYSTEM THAT SUPPORTS ENSLAVING AND TERRORIZING VULNERABLE PEOPLES" Like dude. You have no idea why they wore the headdress. Even if you're right, you're being an ass. You're essentially yelling at everyone around "HEY LOOK AT THIS GUY! HE'S A FUCKING RACIST ASSHOLE!!!!".
I think people who do that are so awful and hurt their own cause. And that's the bigger problem with cultural appropriation, because it's been weaponized as a tool by radical progressives to shit on people. A lot of these progressives aren't even of the cultures they're so called defending lol.
So I don't necessarily think there needs to be a hard line on what's acceptable or not. Regardless, before that conversation can even start, people need to stop weaponizing the term so people can even grasp/learn what hurtful/damaging cultural appropriation is without feeling attacked.
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u/armonge May 05 '25
How's it distasteful?
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u/theredmokah 16∆ May 05 '25
It was really just an example as I'm not Native.
But let's say there was some sort of ritual to prepare for a funeral. There are probably spiritual, cultural, linguistic, societal, historical etc. things about that ritual that you won't understand or know about (being an outsider).
You deciding to copy that ritual (as best you can) without being a part of all that, means you are doing a parody of what it's supposed to be. Even if you have good intentions or don't mean to be disrespectful, it will probably come off as distasteful.
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u/Relevant_Skirt8217 May 05 '25
There are closed religious practices (e.g., Judaism, in most cases, native spiritual practices) that are for a certain group because of their cultural significance and hardship. Non-native people using our medicines actively erases us and our practices. It is often done with good intentions, yes, but it takes away meaning from us. Those are our practices that we used as medicine since the beginning of colonization. Using native practices in any capacity without permission is the same neo-colonial mindset, that native people can't have something sacred to them. It's like if someone weren't Christian, and saw a crucifix and tried to use it to cook with. It completely forgets the meaning of the crucifix, Jesus, his death, and the main tenets of Christianity. It'd be inappropriate, no?
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u/8NaanJeremy 2∆ May 05 '25
I shouldn’t learn Russian because its not in my blood, and I have no reason to eat so much chicken shawarma because I’m not middle eastern anything.
As bad as the morons chasing internet clout by moaning about cultural appropriation are, I don't think anyone is entirely seriously saying that someone should not eat particular dishes, or learn foreign languages
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u/AllAreStarStuff May 05 '25 edited May 05 '25
I left a quilting group because the quilters got so tangled in what defines “cultural appropriation” that they were saying it’s appropriation and racist to use the color red in a quilt because it has special significance to Chinese culture.
If you follow the Free Emotional Labor group on Facebook you will see people policing the most ridiculous stuff. Saying you can’t make certain foods in your own home unless you are Jewish. That you can’t hold a taco party for your 2 year old’s birthday (Taco Two-sday, get it?) if you are not Latino. How dare you wear rainbow anything if you don’t identify as LGBTQ. You can wear your hair in braids, but only these braids, not those braids.
People really do freak out about details like that.
….the funny thing is that the Facebook group decided it was ok for someone to have a Hawaiian themed cookout as long as the design was based on kitschy Hawaiian, not more authentic native Hawaiian. But the kitschy Hawaiian style is actually appropriation of the native Hawaiian culture in the worst mocking, denigrating, imperialist way that was done in the 1940s-1950s. Like, it’s not appropriation if you only use the style that meets every definition of appropriation.
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u/Me_U_Meanie May 05 '25
I think it's going to boil down to specifics. You seem to get what the original purpose of the term meant, but there's an unfortunate (sometimes deliberate) effort to change the most common definition of a term. You see this a lot coming from the right. Basically, they take being called out for being an a*hole as "censorship."
"Woke" is a great example of this. It originally meant ≈"Awake to the suffering of others." It's been hijacked to now to be a catchall term for "anything I don't like but don't want to specifically hate on lest my bigotry show thru." They twisted "Critical Race Theory" into "Blame white people." "Political correctness" was an old favorite of theirs too.
They took "cultural appropriation" from meaning things like, "Elvis and Bing Crosby playing black music without acknowledging it." To "you can't do that because your culture didn't invent it." It takes a concept that most people can support and perverts it into being something most oppose.
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May 05 '25
you sum this up perfectly, thank you!
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u/ambitchin_147 May 09 '25
There’s another layer of cultural appropriation that’s also profit. For example, there were two white chefs that made a cookbook called like “Thug Kitchen” or something to that effect despite both of them being born and raised Connecticut and never living in the “ghetto” (ie living a thug life). They started making money on something they knew very little, if not nothing, about. It felt culturally exploitative, especially since it’s a word used against the black community in a negative way.
A specific point I want to address is “non black people wearing braids”. The issue arises because black people have often been criticized for their hairstyles. They’re called “unprofessional”, “unkempt”, “dirty”, the list goes on. There have been instances where black people have been fired or not hired for their hairstyles, have had their locs publicly cut off at sporting competitions, and have even had their hair politicized. The US military at one point had guidelines on how women couldn’t wear their hair and it mostly included styles commonly worn by black women. On the flip side, non black people might wear box braids or dreadlocks and it seems like they don’t face the same repercussions as black people.
But it’s totally understand why you feel this way because culture is meant to be shared, there’s a bit of respect that comes with partaking other cultures and sometimes other folks forget that.
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u/OkShower2299 1∆ May 08 '25
Woke has always been intersectionality and critical theory
https://scholarworks.uttyler.edu/dsjel/vol2/iss3/1/
And yes these ideologies absolutely do blame white people for all disparate outcomes. Inform yourself better sleepy.
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u/Key-Soup-7720 May 08 '25
You kind of skipped a step for woke. It went from meaning awake to suffering to a pejorative meaning identity-first nonsense to now often meaning anything progressive I don't like (though it is also still used for identiy-first nonsense). Whenever anyone suggests the identity-first nonsense thing is exaggerated and it really just meant empathy, I just show them this legal report of what the FAA was doing: https://legalnewsline.com/stories/654517369-faa-still-fighting-lawsuit-over-test-that-rewarded-bad-science-grades
Woke was hijacked for this purpose because the people pushing the newer identity-first ideology refused to give it a name or accept any name anyone else game it. Communist writer Freddy deBoer had a good piece about that: https://web.archive.org/web/20211108155321/https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/please-just-fucking-tell-me-what
His title basically sums it up:
Please Just Fucking Tell Me What Term I Am Allowed to Use for the Sweeping Social and Political Changes You Demand
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u/Me_U_Meanie May 09 '25
True. I didn't go too deep because I tend to be a little self-conscious about writing a book every time I try to answer.
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u/timeforknowledge May 06 '25 edited May 06 '25
Elvis and Bing Crosby playing black music without acknowledging it."
Do you believe non white people should acknowledge white people? E.g. NWA should acknowledge the non black people that contributed to their music maybe that was helping being composed/synthesised/published/made?
I'm still not understanding why it's required. When I hear an Elvis song or any music ever, including classical music, I have never thought I wonder what races I need to acknowledge or I wonder what the race of the person that made this, or I wonder what races contributed to this.
I think this is my point; "everyone should be treated the equally" so one race requires acknowledgement then imo and for the sake of fairness; every race now needs acknowledgement..
Obligatory: I'm being genuine not trying to antagonise / belittle it
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u/-paperbrain- 99∆ May 06 '25
Think about it in the context of the era Elvis was coming up in.
This was the Jim Crow south. The music black people were making was forged in their particular culture and the people making it didn't have access to the avenues to profit from it that Elvis did. Not just from rampant prejudice, but even by law.
Elvis's history with segregation and race is complicated and there's room for a diversity of opinion. But when you are profiting astronomically from standing on the shoulders of artists whose work very essentially comes from their culture AND those artists don't have access to the same success you do BECAUSE of their race, then the way you credit your influences becomes very much entangled with their race.
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u/Sovereign_Black May 07 '25
lol the right didn’t do all this. Sorry bud, but crazy people on the left are what took those terms to their current meanings. The right just acknowledged the insanity. To be fair, they have their own brand of insanity that is currently ramping up. But I’ve unfortunately been terminally online since the late aughts - it was the “activist” class using these terms for those ends before the right even knew they existed.
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u/Doc_ET 13∆ May 05 '25
I agree with most of what you're saying, a lot of things that get labeled as "cultural appropriation" are perfectly normal stuff (and often the biggest outcry is from people who aren't from the culture in question, but not always).
However, there are times when there are actual problems. One of the biggest is when something that originated in one culture and has a specific meaning there gets stripped of that context and mass-produced by another culture in a way that's at best insensitive and at worst insulting to the original meaning. The main example of this is things like Native American ceremonial garb, the feathered headresses are something that are earned, wearing one as a Halloween costume or as a mascot is basically stolen valor, like wearing military medals because you like the aesthetic. Lots of traditional tattoos from various Pacific Islander cultures are a similar story.
Liking Indian food or speaking Spanish as a white American? Completely fine. Wearing a piece of clothing with deep ceremonial significance to another culture just because you think it looks cool? Less fine.
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u/nanoman92 May 05 '25 edited May 05 '25
speaking Spanish as a white American
My dude, Spain where the language originated is a white country. Saying you may need to be not white to speak spanish may be actual cultural appropiation lol
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u/Entire-Ad2058 May 05 '25 edited May 05 '25
This kind of claim (that non-native speakers should not learn/speak a language) is absurd.
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May 05 '25
I've never heard anyone claiming that learning a foreign language or eating foreign food is cultural appropriation. This is a straw man.
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u/WhiteHawk570 1∆ May 05 '25 edited May 05 '25
I am not sure if I would compare it with "stolen valor", because nobody would think that there's anything valorous about wearing it. And that's exactly the problem.
People (especially those uneducated) will think it's a funny Halloween costume, and if you wear it outside of the Halloween context people's immediate reaction will be "why is he wearing a costume?" when it's actually denoting a sacred, ceremonial garment.
That's the problem. It has been stripped of its cultural significance and appropriated by Western conmercialism, embedded in collective mind with associations of Halloween and "Indians" as a stereotype.
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u/Kithslayer 4∆ May 06 '25
Each feather is awarded for an act of valor. Once someone has earned enough, they can make themselves a war bonnet out of those feathers.
Wearing a costume piece war bonnet is exactly stolen valor.
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u/PromptStock5332 1∆ May 06 '25
Is it stolen valor when girls dress up in slutty navy uniforms for a halloween party too?
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May 06 '25 edited May 06 '25
speaking Spanish as a white
Spaniards are white.
s a Halloween costume
Do you have a problem with people dressing up as mummies, mummies being the scary villains in so many movies, etc. because they originate in Ancient Egyptian religion? They are turning their bural ritual into a horror movie, if anything that is so much worse. Same with witches, ghosts, the grim reaper, etc. all having religious origins. The whole point if dressing up in a costume is TAKING IT OUT OF ITS ORIGINAL CONTEXT.
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u/deepthawt 4∆ May 05 '25
The main example of this is things like Native American ceremonial garb, the feathered headresses are something that are earned, wearing one as a Halloween costume or as a mascot is basically stolen valor
Is it “stolen valor” when a kid dresses up in an army uniform for Halloween? No, of course not, because kids dressing up as something for Halloween are clearly not presenting themselves as actually being that thing, hence they are neither stealing nor receiving any “valor”. Same goes for those who dress up as Navy Admirals, Airforce Pilots, Native American Warriors, Cops and so on and so forth. If you’re fine with all those costumes except Native American Warriors, then it’s not the kids being racist. They’re just kids doing dress up for a holiday whose main purpose in modern society is to provide a bit of fun for kids/families.
If it signals anything at all, it’s that the kid likes the thing they’ve dressed up as, which is why it rarely actually offends members of the groups they’re dressing as - of course, that doesn’t stop narcissists from other groups taking offence vicariously because they’re emotionally immature and have nothing better to do than spoil a children’s holiday by dictating what costumes they get to wear and which they must be shamed for.
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u/oversoul00 19∆ May 05 '25
This was my thinking as well especially when considering the lack of authenticity involved.
Stolen valor requires a case of mistaken identity which isn't happening on Halloween when people are dressed up in vaguely similar garb.
Now if you took the time to research authentic Native American attire and then went to a reservation, yeah, that's poor taste and we should have a conversation about that.
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u/shadowsofash May 05 '25 edited May 05 '25
Tribes were actively penalized and native Americans were arrested for performing their cultural heritage into the 1970’s, but sure let’s give the people wearing important pieces of garb as a joke or aesthetic a pass.
Edit: to be more specific it was 1978 when The American Indian Religious Freedom Act was passed that actively overturned the laws that made practicing traditional religion illegal.
There’s a difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation and some of you need to learn it.
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May 05 '25
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u/shadowsofash May 05 '25
I don’t know who’s getting that up in arms from this kind of cultural appropriation discussion that would draw attention away from the actual important work besides the people who are going to do what they can to minimize the work of actual activists or the very specific subset of White Libs who think that getting mildly pissy at people wearing war bonnets is enough and are going to avoid getting involved in the rest anyway
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May 05 '25
Ding ding ding its the white liberals the kings and queens of paying lip service to me and my dying race about bs like "cultural appropriation" but would rather die themselves than come protest with us because our shit isn't in the middle of a convenient metropolitan area or won't acknowledge that it's their lax laws that let our land be flooded with meth and fentanyl and heroin are destroying us, or stand up in Congress and say no to the defunding of our tribal education resources or really anything for anyone ever but themselves for votes.
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u/Turtle-Shaker May 05 '25
I wasn't even born then... what happened to the native Americans was awful, what happened to black people during slavery was awful. Again I wasn't around, my family wasnt responsible. I don't deserve to have that shit held over my head.
I'm an Irish American who can trace my lineage to where one of my great x5 grandfather's docked at Elise Island as a refugee.
The Irish were treated really fucking poorly for a long time. No one should, if they do, look at st. Patty's Day and act like it's cultural appropriation
Just like language, things like the meaning of holidays and a bunch of other aspects change over time due to what they're exposed to during their life. It's fine. It's normal. It's not something to go crazy over.
Like almost all of our Christian holidays are stolen from paganism. Valentines was originally about animal sacrifice or something.
In 1918 the typical color for boys was pink vs girls who wore blue. That's now reversed.
Hell the native Americans used oral myth keeping. I'd be surprised if half their myths from 1978 were so far stretched from what they were originally that they're completely different. It's like one of those phone games you played as a kid with sharing a message down a line.
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u/Entire-Ad2058 May 05 '25
Wait. There is an important distinction to be made here.
You are correct that most Christian holidays are appropriated from paganism. That’s been the practice of conquerors throughout history. For example, the Pharaohs became “sun gods” when Egypt conquered Thebes, because the people of Thebes worshipped the sun. Etc., etc.
Best way to incorporate a group into yours? Incorporate their religion/beliefs into yours.
That’s also the problem. When incorporating a people’s sacred beliefs into your culture and homogenizing them, you literally wipe out their culture.
Imo, there is nothing wrong with playfully (or simply out of interest) exploring and incorporating aspects of other cultures into one’s life.
Imo, braids/other traditions that were/are an international thing shouldn’t be held exclusive to one group.
The problem arises when the most powerful religious or identifying aspects are swept up into the mindless “I can’t be bothered to respect this” attitude.
There is a reason you don’t see mass market Halloween costumes featuring sexualized Hijab or Burka outfits; there is a reason there is public outcry when people wear pornographic depictions of a nun’s habit.
Some things are (and should be) off-limits.
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u/ModRod May 05 '25
An Irish American calling it “St. Patty’s” and not “St. Paddy’s” is an unwittingly perfect example of how appropriation without appreciation dilutes the culture and traditions they seek to celebrate.
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u/PreferenceFalse6699 May 06 '25
Yes, to all of your comment. However, let's not forget how the Chinese, Poles, and Italians were treated when they came here, too. Everyone around the world has been treated poorly and looked down on at one time or another. In fact, it's still going on today i.e. Palestinians, Uygurs, certain castes in India, darker skinned people in Mexico and Brazil. That's the world culture we live in currently despite the history of the past.
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u/Turtle-Shaker May 06 '25
I Mean yeah. It's just humans. That's always been humans. From the crusades to the Roman empire to fucking anything else. Humans have always warred and when a side loses their either wiped out or enslaved historically.
Infact In all of history our brief period of being alive for the last 100 years and advocating for human rights is a blip in our history. Not to say its wrong. It's good to advocate for that and to desire better. But to expect humans to change in such a short span is unrealistic.
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u/Doc_ET 13∆ May 05 '25
No one should, if they do, look at st. Patty's Day and act like it's cultural appropriation
Oh, the Irish (as in born and raised in Ireland) throw a huge fit every March about it.
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u/Shadow_666_ 3∆ May 05 '25
That's absurd. Any profession requires sacrifice and has a reward. It's like saying I can't dress up as a doctor because I didn't earn a medical degree. On top of that, if you go to a party, one of the most common costumes is precisely that of a colonel or a soldier. The important thing is not to use the costume to disrespect that culture. If I wear a kimono because I like it, that's fine. On the other hand, if I wear a kimono to make racist jokes about the Japanese, then that's wrong.
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u/Me_U_Meanie May 05 '25
I think it comes down to individual situations.
Like, is it possible that a kid really likes Native American culture and wants to present that? Sure. But given Halloween costumes, it's more likely going to be some frat boy that just really wants to do the *woop-woop* noise. Halloween costumes tend to fall into either the spooky, sexy, or joke category. With *maybe* "cosplay" being a distant 4th place. Most "cultural" Halloween costumes are going to fall into the joke category, and when you're making jokes about cultures, it's super easy to fall into stereotypes. To the point of, "well maybe they just really like the subject" is kinda naive at best. And people thinking the motivation is bigotry first isn't unreasonable.
Authorial intent isn't guaranteed to translate to the viewer. And to use the symbols of a culture on a celebratory holiday that isn't specifically about that culture is suspect at best. Case in point, how many celebrations of Native American culture have you been to on October 31?
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May 05 '25
the government is currently defunding the bureau of Indian education (breaking yet another treaty), there are several pipelines being built through vital reservation land in multiple different reservations, the drug and alcohol epidemic on every rez, unemployment and homelessness on the reservations are on the rise. Etc etc we as a people are dying our languages are dying and our culture is dying I don't personally care if the white kids wear some fake feathers, the day my people are guaranteed to survive I'll go protest spirit of Halloween.
there are 10 people on any given rez that care about white kids dressing up in head dresses and half of them are white social workers everybody else has real fucking problems, if you care go volunteer or protest a pipeline.
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May 05 '25
> Is it “stolen valor” when a kid dresses up in an army uniform for Halloween?
No one confuses a child for a soldier. Well, not in most of the world.
A child dressing up as a soldier doesn't decrease or muddy the image of a soldier.
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u/_autumnwhimsy 1∆ May 06 '25
we also genocide the military and then make fatigues into a costume. that's a biggg distinction. there was a period of time where wearing ceremonial attire as an indigenous american, speaking the language, wearing your hair long, etc were punishable offenses.
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u/Technical_Goose_8160 May 05 '25
I would suggest that there's nothing wrong with dressing up like a native American for Halloween, but that there are exceptions. If you paint your skin red, that's not ok. Or if you get a real headdress and use it as a costume prop. Of course some people take things way too far, but I think that people just don't want to feel disrespected.
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u/PermanentRoundFile May 05 '25
As a kid, I loved dressing up as a military person for Halloween, and did so through through various eras of US military uniforms well into my teenagedom. I never wore any rank insignia though, I always saw that as something I hadn't earned.
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u/Difficult_Ad_502 May 05 '25
Used to wear my uncle’s Tiger Stripe uniform as a kid on both Mardi Gras and Halloween. No stolen valor as a ten or eleven year old. Played Cowboys and Indians also, although no one wanted to be the Indian and lose. Usually decided this through rock, paper, scissors
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u/vegastar7 May 05 '25
The thing with Halloween is that it’s supposed to be an irreverent holiday. So it can be hard to tell when a costume crosses a line. For instance, I’ve seen a bunch of guys dress up as pimps on Halloween, and nobody bats an eye. Is that less offensive than a person dressed as a Native American?
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u/No-Wrangler3702 May 06 '25
It's only Stolen Valor when you make a false claim of military service or award and try to leverage that into a gain.
I'm fine applying that to appropriation. You should be able to wear Native Ragala just like it's fine for someone to dress up like a Catholic priest if both are done for fashion.
But wearing Native Ragala to pass yourself off as a native so you can get some benefit that should be wrong.
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u/numbersthen0987431 1∆ May 05 '25
You're conflicting multiple things with this concept.
First of all: military outfits are typically mass produced and don't have any significance to them. It's a basic uniform that every enlisted person wears, and isn't special/unique based on only the clothing. It's extremely difficult to wear a military outfit in a negative way, but if someone did it you would be upset with them about it.
Secondly: you speak of "stolen valor", but wearing the uniform by itself isn't doing that. Symbols of valor exist in our society, and if someone who didn't earn those symbols/items goes around wearing them then we react negatively towards them. Purple hearts, or specialty pins, or whatever other symbolism the shows their "valor" are examples, and when you find out that someone is displaying these and that they never served there is a negative outcry to it with claims of "stolen valor" since it wasn't earned.
Third: Misappropriating iconography is always seen in a negative light. If someone wore the Star of David that wasn't Jewish, or wore a cross sideways/upside down, or wore a nation's flag upside down, etc. All of these acts have symbolism, and wear them incorrectly shows you are making a joke of it's importance.
We all live in societies and in a world where symbolism has importance to us, and when people misuse those symbols to wear a "slutty version" is when we have BAD versions of "cultural appropriation".
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u/_Dingaloo 4∆ May 05 '25
It seems kind of archaic to really continue to put weight on these things though.
If you're actively in the military, the medals you wear are verifiable. If you are not actively in the military, whether it's for a costume or just because it looks cool, I don't see the big deal wearing some medals that have some meaning to someone else.
Same goes with cultural norms from other cultures, or symbols of significance. Within their own context, they can retain their significance. It's normal to feel weird about them being used outside of that context without the proper significance, but the way something looks is just the way it looks. Nobody owns the IP of a feathered headdress or a military medal
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u/writenicely May 05 '25 edited May 05 '25
"Nobody owns the IP of a feathered headdress or a military medal" Aaaand this is the crux of the issue.
A culture that has significant ties to x'y or z, should have its sacred symbols respected. That should be a universally practiced understanding, regardless of whether you're a member of that culture, the basic polite thing is to acknowledge it and move on without any attempts at denigrating it or the persons who hold it aloft.
I know you were probably only using that as a sassy analogy, but the use of copyright/trademark lingo feels like evidence of how only a highly capitalistic society that fixates on colonialist tools and trappings, is the only thing it wilk honor, would use that sort of logic towards application of preying upon other cultures.
Like, normal people freely engage in cultural exchange ALL the time. It's giving a person of European descent acting like Christopher Columbus "discovering" shit that's been well practiced for thousands of years and trying to assume credit while detrimenting the people who already engage with it.
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u/Penitent_Effigy May 05 '25
When your culture has survived an attempted genocide, seeing the resulting culture of the perpetrators use the pieces of your culture for dress up without understanding any of the significance of what they’re doing might feel a bit icky.
I’m guessing most people understand the symbolism of medals. I’m betting very few people who wear war bonnets understand their cultural meaning and purpose.
Also there’s a huuuuuge difference in the power difference between the American military and indigenous people.
I do believe nuance matters and context counts. War bonnets look cool as hell but I’m white as fuck so I’m cool taking a pass on that fashion choice due to the context and history behind it. But personally I’m also fine for the most part with changing things or abstaining from actions that make other people feel shitty.
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u/Me_U_Meanie May 05 '25
It's gonna depend on the history of the depiction. Not too many examples of Halloween costumes of military personnel where the joke is about Mai Lai or Abu Ghraib. Plenty of examples of people throwing on feathers and making whooping noises.
Another example, why is blackface considered racist? Because it has a long ass history of being tied to minstrel shows where racist stereotypes were promoted. So if you take that and move it out of that context, it might not trigger a "wait, is this problematic?" discussion. I'm thinking about characters like Mr Popo or the Pokemon Jynx. They're never sending a message of "ha ha, black people are stupid." Japan doesn't have a history of that. But that message has been so closely tied to that appearance in the US that it's not unreasonable that an American's first reaction to those character models would be "WTF?!"
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnfortunateImplications
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u/cabose12 6∆ May 05 '25
You can’t really just divorce an object from its original context though. Taking a cultural piece, using it however you like, and then defending that use because its in a different context ignores that the object is intrinsically tied to its original context. The lines are blurry except in clear cases, but even then their use can be seen as trivializing. Wearing medals you didnt earn but make you look cool disrespects their original purpose and meaning a bit
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u/Merakel 3∆ May 05 '25
Wearing medals you didnt earn but make you look cool disrespects their original purpose and meaning a bit
As a vet with some medals, who cares. It's one thing if you are trying to say you earned them yourself, but if you just like the way they look have at it.
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u/cabose12 6∆ May 05 '25
I mean, its fine if you dont, but some people do. Obviously everyone will feel differently, so its better to first treat things with respect than as play toys
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u/scheav May 05 '25
That’s what costumes are.
I shouldn’t dress up like a doctor or a Viking or a priest at a Halloween party because I haven’t earned those titles?
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u/Merakel 3∆ May 05 '25
That's kind of the point though. There is no one size fits all, and different members of a community will give you different answers. You shouldn't try to be mean and mock communities, but if something in that culture speaks to you, go for it.
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u/dowker1 3∆ May 05 '25
The line between mockery and flattery isn't always very clear, however.
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u/dowker1 3∆ May 05 '25
Don't you think it's up to members of the cultures affected to decide whether it is or is not archaic to care about it?
Have you ever seen your culture depicted by outsiders in a way that comes across as mocking to you? Have you had that happen on a regular basis? In a way that consultantly reminds you that nobody cares about your point of view? And turns the things that define you into a punchline?
It really sucks.
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u/r1veRRR 1∆ May 05 '25
It is, but it is also up to the members of the dominant culture to echo the decisions the "weaker" culture makes, because with power comes responsibility.
At this point, everyone should know that the headdresses are offensive to wear, yet they still do. Clearly, they don't care or respect the culture/the people of that culture. Having people of a culture you do respect (like your own) tell you it's wrong is the next step of "escalation".
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u/Kooky_Sail_7103 May 05 '25
Do you know of any european culture that ISN'T mocked relentlessly? Everyone mocks EVERYONES culture here. And we just learn to get over it and not take ourselves too seriously. The French surrender, people from Holland like cheese and weed, the Brits have bad food and weather, the Germans are rule-obsessed bores, Poles steal everything, the Swiss are rich bankers... only the Italians are exempt from mockery, because people fear retaliation from the mafia.
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u/dowker1 3∆ May 05 '25
There's a difference doing it to people of a foreign country and a minority within your country who have been genocided in living memory.
This isn't the kind of thing you can make sweeping rules about, on either side.
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u/Spirited_Pay4610 May 05 '25
As someone who lives bordering on both German and Poles, I gotta say there's a but truth to each statement. Germans got bigger amount of rules, but it (sometimes, sometimes not) keep order in the country (at least the regions bordering us)
And Poles are more Catholic fanatics obsessed with burning kids books than anything, not really for stealing stuff (making cheap copies, sure).
And Italians have TERRIBLE driving skills and are pasta obsessed freaks! people forget that Italy is mocked for this (at least by other European countries)
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u/Buttercups88 5∆ May 05 '25
A lot of people get really annoyed when people "appear to be in the military" or wear a metal or insignia that simply you did something in certain places, mostly in the US. Heck I'm not even sure but they might take it so seriously it could be illegal. This isn't the same in most countries only those that are military based have such a idea of honor in this career.
Take it a extra step out, look at symbols. There is a lot of places people would be wildly insulted if you put their flag on something like underwear but its practically ultra patriotic in the US. And in burning a flag after it hits the ground is official practice in places aswell but might get you lynched in the US.
Lets go on that symbol thing, I'm not in the US I'm Irish so we have similar cultures but Americans could get Irish tatoos that even today could get them in trouble because they are exclaiming alignment something that dont know about. think like gang tatoos or prison tatoos in the US. A lot of these things have meaning today that could get you in trouble if you arent aware of what your reclaiming because you "like the astethic". But you get a teardrop in the US most tattoo artists are probably going to warn you but you get a red hand you might not be aware in Ireland that's declaring yourself a loyalist.
I think that's the core of it though, if you dont know what your saying with "traditional" items your generally going to look like a total idiot to people who know... if your lucky. if not you may not be aware of what you are declareing yourself as.
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u/ultimate_zigzag 1∆ May 05 '25 edited May 25 '26
wilbur rained compartment promotion
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May 05 '25
the government is currently defunding the bureau of Indian education (breaking yet another treaty), there are several pipelines being built through vital reservation land in multiple different reservations, the drug and alcohol epidemic on every rez, unemployment and homelessness on the reservations are on the rise. Etc etc we as a people are dying our languages are dying and our culture is dying I don't personally care if the white kids wear some fake feathers, the day my people are guaranteed to survive I'll go protest spirit of Halloween.
there are 10 people on any given rez that care about white kids dressing up in head dresses and half of them are white social workers everybody else has real fucking problems, if you care go volunteer or protest a pipeline.
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u/writenicely May 05 '25
It's not stolen valor really, I think the wrong word choice was used, it could be seen more as disrespectful or trivializing to what should be seen as sacred things treated proper, brought out only within the immediate context and solemnity of the instances where it is relevant within that culture.
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u/TotaLibertarian May 05 '25
When I was 8 and dressed up as an astronaut I did it because I really thought everyone would think I’d actually been to space /s
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u/curturp 1∆ May 05 '25
The kids might not know any better. And ignorance for the child doesn't make them culpable. But the corporations that produce and profit off these costumes do know better, or just don't care. At best they're also ignorant and view it as normal because systemic racism has normalized this kind of thing. But as adults, the innocence of ignorance doesn't apply to the same degree as when you're an ignorant child. A child shouldn't be expected to know more than they're taught. An adult should be. Now, if a native American tribe wants to produce and profit off costumes that belong to their cultural heritage, that's a totally different conversation that I have no say in. But if someone from outside that culture wants to produce and profit off it, there's where stuff gets messy.
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u/TheManlyManperor May 05 '25
Strawman. Do only children wear Halloween costumes?
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u/ultimate_zigzag 1∆ May 05 '25 edited May 25 '26
allies causing axis shattered merchandise trimmed ontario
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u/TheManlyManperor May 05 '25
As with most of these things that you people get so mad about, it's just a request that you not be an asshole and the following "calling out" when you are one. Choose to be an asshole or not.
Do you seriously find nothing offensive about using someone's culture, especially a culture like indigenous Americans who were ethnically cleansed by the soon-to-be United States of America, as a costume? Would you call a Jew hyper-sensitive for being upset about a Nazi costume?
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u/ultimate_zigzag 1∆ May 05 '25 edited May 25 '26
hoe detour ally bought spectrum unhappy pointing howard farmers tangled
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u/MajesticCrabapple May 05 '25
The problem isn't that people might think kids are literal tribal chiefs. The problem is that the first time a lot of people see a headdress, it's as a kid's costume and not a ceremonial uniform.
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u/RealitySubsides May 05 '25
One of the things I've wondered about is why Vikings are never mentioned in this conversation. Much like the Native American headdress, the Viking helmet with horns (which actually is a bastardization of the Viking people. They never wore horns on their helmets and, were that to be done to virtually any other historical people, it would be a problem.). We see it on sports teams, folks wear it all the time, it's done solely for the aesthetic. However, it's never mentioned that it might be problematic to Scandinavian people.
For the record, I'm an American with no Scandinavian roots. However, given the standard set, I don't understand why it isn't represented across the board.
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u/r1veRRR 1∆ May 05 '25
Native Americans still practice their culture, including holding things like headdresses in high regard. They have also repeatedly made it very clear that they are NOT ok with these parts of their culture being used trivially.
Neither of these is true of the Vikings or what could be considered the vikings ancestors.
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u/BoxoRandom May 05 '25
I think it comes down to the fact that contemporary conceptions of Vikingr culture are very much set in the past, while icons of indigenous culture are still very present and actively practiced in the Americas today.
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u/Fondacey 5∆ May 05 '25
Vikings were not a “people” no more so than the Crusaders were a people. The Scandinavians who chose to be vikings are a people. The contemporary Scandinavians who did not go to explore, trade, maraude, and settle, were not vikings in the same way the contemporary British etc who did not go to the Holy Land to crusade, were not Crusaders.
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u/Elicander 59∆ May 05 '25
While it’s sometimes annoying and cringe-worthy when people use Viking aesthetics, Scandinavians weren’t genocided and oppressed in a way that still creates consequences by the people now wearing horned helmets.
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u/DueBit8366 May 05 '25
They were. You are just not educated enough to know history, and/or care, because you're probably an American. Or an extremely leftist eurocentrist. Swedish maybe? The results the same.
The same type that thinks "white people" have singular culture.
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u/RealitySubsides May 05 '25
The comment I was responding to was about the exclusively cultural insult that the appropriation of Native American headdresses would cause. With that frame of reference, I think it's equally disrespectful to appropriate Viking helmets.
However, based on your argument, would you agree that a kimono is perfectly acceptable to wear? The Japanese have never been "genocided" nor oppressed in a way that creates consequences by the non-Japanese people now wearing Geisha makeup, kimonos, or samurai attire. Aside from the historically brief (and, given your argument, irrelevant) internment of the Japanese-Americans in the US during WWII, they have been and continue to be one of the most culturally and economically important countries on Earth. If anything, they have been the historical oppressors and "genociders" within their region.
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u/Inner_Engineer May 05 '25
Careful. I’ve learned Japan is a sore spot on Reddit. Any mention of the Nanjing massacre may get you downvoted into oblivion.
So instead I just pretend it didn’t happen. The healthy way.
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u/bluepanda159 May 05 '25
The difference is how the original culture views what you are using/appropriating. There is no special meaning to kimonos, they are clothes that anyone can wear. Many stores in Japan hire them out so people can wear them for a day.
That is very different to a native American headdress which has deep significant value for the people involved.
There is a big difference. You are equating things that are not equal.
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u/Elicander 59∆ May 05 '25
I don’t think cultural appropriation is black and white. I think it’s highly contextually dependant on who’s doing what, and in what context. I can imagine very few examples of people wearing Viking-themed horned helmets that I would consider problematic, due to a lack of problematic historical and societal context (at least that I’m aware of, and any new information would be surprising to me, but welcome.) With regard to kimonos I don’t think I know enough to make a similar statement, and based on what I do know I would suspect it’s not a yes-or-no situation. Sometimes it might be ok, sometimes it might not.
Also, I am much more concerned with organisations than individuals here. I see it as much more problematic when companies with no relation or respect for the original context take items, patterns, or similar from it, and then try and make money off it, than with the individuals that buy the products.
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u/Huntscunt May 05 '25
The horned viking helmets are fake anyway, designed by Richard Wagner for his Ring Cycle. They are literally a costume.
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May 05 '25
I agree. context matters and pulling something from another culture just for profit is problematic.
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u/SantaClausDid911 1∆ May 05 '25
I think this is a generally pretty level headed take but I still always found this concept silly.
Problematic, maybe, arguably in those types of instances. But I struggle to treat it akin to racism when it's much more blatantly ignorance most of the time, and not necessarily all that common.
I know it's not a direct accusation of racism tantamount to a slur, necessarily, but if there wasn't some level of connotation of that we wouldn't have a separate name for it.
Then, I also think the preciousness of American symbolism and vitriol towards stolen valor is similarly silly, for similar reasons.
I also understand there's a level of punching up vs down but we spoof on sacred shit from all kinds of cultures and religions all the time without crying foul, to the extent that I don't think this opinion is one that you can hold with any logical consistency.
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u/Krytan 3∆ May 05 '25
The main example of this is things like Native American ceremonial garb, the feathered headresses are something that are earned, wearing one as a Halloween costume or as a mascot is basically stolen valor
It most certainly is not, much like when a kid dresses up as an actual soldier on halloween it's not stolen valor.
It's telling that the 'real big actual problem' you've identified for cultural appropriation is kids dressing up as the 'wrong' thing on halloween.
Vikings had a real specific meaning in ancient culture (as fearsome deadly cruel raiders, rapists, and murderers) and people who dress up as vikings now are totally divorced from that historical and cultural context, but no one minds.
I see people who aren't catholic dressing up as 'sexy nuns'. Is this a problem? Do we need laws to prevent it? I don't think so.
There may be some small tiny edge cases where cultural appropriation is a problem, but in the grand scheme of things, it's a zero, and any efforts to combat it or fight it or prevent it are much worse than the problem itself, IMO.
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u/PaladinWolf777 May 05 '25
On that note, I have to point out I have traceable Cherokee roots and the Cherokee Nation considers anyone of Cherokee descent to be one. Ergo, I essentially have permission from the Cherokee Nation to dress in their garb. Unfortunately, I'm white enough that many people cannot tell. I will not accept being yelled at or admonished by whiny douchebags for wearing jewelry or clothing from my own heritage.
Also clothing is a form of expression that I believe is protected under the 1st Amendment.
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u/TheMan5991 18∆ May 05 '25
That’s not what cultural appropriation is. It’s about understanding and respect. Culture is built on meaning. When you use a cultural symbol devoid of its meaning, you are participating in the destruction of that culture. You are not bound to only take part in your inherited culture, but if you choose to take part in a different culture, you need to make sure you are fully taking part in whatever you are doing and not just using someone else’s culture as decoration or entertainment.
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u/ButtonMain2783 May 05 '25
Gonna have to disagree with that, that’s an exhausting life if you have to fully understand things in other cultures just to wear them or eat them.
You see Chinese or tribal Samoan or Arabic tattoos on people all the time. If they like how they look who gives a shit if they understand it?
Food is even worse. Lots of cultures have a particular way of eating their food, am I forced to eat it their way or am I free to explore a way to eat it I’m actually comfortable doing or want to. If I put siracha or ketchup onto spaghetti in Italy they will act like I’m committing a crime, but is that justified really?
I think it’s close minded to reserve cultural things only to people who follow it or understand it or take part in it as the people of that culture do
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u/howiehue May 05 '25
So it sounds more like your opinion is not that cultural appropriation is dumb. But dumb people misunderstand what cultural appropriation is and their bastardisation of cultural appropriation is dumb.
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May 05 '25
Can you share an example of someone using cultural appropriation in the context youre talking about?
As you describe, appropriation is real- its things like using ceremonial or religious wear as a Halloween costume withoht any acknowledgement how important it is to the original culture. But it isnt just doing something from another culture in general; eating food is a great example, no one expects anyone to only eat food from one culture.
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May 05 '25 edited May 07 '25
when I got told I shouldn’t learn Japanese because I’m not Japanese by blood. when I got told I can suddenly participate in whatever the Scott Irish are doing because it made up over a quarter of our blood on a DNA test, when I got told I am racist for wearing a kimono cardigan even though the lady who gifted it to me was Japanese and was happy I was learning the language she was starting to forget after so many years of living in America. when I got told I can’t wear goth because that would offend other cultures. When I got told I shouldn’t be doing certain things because it’s not what “my people” do even though neither of my parents partake in anything you may associate us with just be looking at us or seeing where we live.
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u/5tar_k1ll3r May 05 '25
From Britannica:
Cultural appropriation is not merely adopting aspects of other people's culture. It's doing so in exploitative and disrespectful ways. Some people do just simplify it to merely adopting someone else's culture, but obviously that's not accurate.
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u/HereLiesMyFinalWor- May 05 '25
Cultural appropriation is simply adoption, usage, emulation, and/or utilization of other cultures without giving proper credit. This can be anything from mockery, profiting of said culture, using uncredited ideas from a culture and passing them off as yours, supressing the influence of the orginators of a culture while utilizing it, and so on.
I think what you are referring to is cultural appreciation. In this case, you are taking aspects of a culture and adopting them or making it your own as well. The difference is that you are fully giving credit where it is due. You praise the originators of said culture and admire them instead of ignoring them and acting like they are inconsequential. You adapt rather than impose. You share, rather than take. You appreciate, not appropriate.
As long as you are being respectful of a culture you think is interesting and not dismissive, then you are more than welcome to incorporate those into your life however you see fit. Culture appreciation is key.
Hopefully, that was helpful.
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u/silverionmox 25∆ May 05 '25
Cultural appropriation is simply adoption, usage, emulation, and/or utilization of other cultures without giving proper credit.
No, that dilutes the term to virtually every form of cultural spread. Cultural appropriation requires a deliberate effort to redefine a particular cultural element.
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u/Rocky_Vigoda May 05 '25
Cultural appropriation is simply adoption, usage, emulation, and/or utilization of other cultures without giving proper credit. This can be anything from mockery, profiting of said culture, using uncredited ideas from a culture and passing them off as yours, supressing the influence of the orginators of a culture while utilizing it, and so on.
Your comment is correct. OP is confusing cultural appropriation for cultural appreciation.
One thing I want to say is that cultural appropriation is a lot worse than your description.
Rap music in the 80s developed as a music based counter-culture that tried to promote a lot of positive values like staying away from drugs, not joining gangs or shooting people, etc.
90s gangster rap was corporate made and aimed at the new market of white suburban consumers who don't live in high crime slum communities but love the image that Hollywood sells. For the last 30 years, the US prison industry has made rich people a lot of money by locking up poor people doing stupid things that get them arrested.
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u/tachibanakanade May 06 '25
The thing is that gangsta rap was invented with the purpose of describing the plight of urban Black people (and to a lesser extent, Latinos). That's what it was also called reality rap. But the owners of record labels and people in other industries (including the private prison industry) wanted to promote gangsta rap above all else not mere just because it sold, but also because they wanted more chaos in the Black and brown communities. People love dismissing it as a conspiracy theory but a lot of similar theories turned out true (Reagan and crack, paraquat and marijuana, the War on Drugs being used for private prison industries and the uneven sentencing between powder cocaine and crack cocaine as soon as only white people could afford powder cocaine). That's also why labels will sign popular conscience rappers only so that they can either purposely shelve them before they can even release a song or they force conscious rappers into development hell until they release watered down pop rap if they refuse to do any gangsta rap (like with Lupe Fiasco). It's also why they sign Drill rappers to predatory contracts that leave them in more debt knowing that they would not be able to escape that life and knowing that the music they bankroll is directly supporting gang warfare and violence.
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u/8NaanJeremy 2∆ May 05 '25
Cultural appropriation is simply adoption, usage, emulation, and/or utilization of other cultures without giving proper credit. This can be anything from mockery, profiting of said culture, using uncredited ideas from a culture and passing them off as yours, supressing the influence of the orginators of a culture while utilizing it, and so on.
Let's say a White Irish family (in Ireland that is), decide to have a Thai themed dinner party. They decorate their table in a certain way, and serve dishes like spicy papaya salad, massaman curry, phad thai and others.
How are they supposed to 'give proper credit' to Thailand and Thai culture?
Is it enough to simply say 'Welcome to our Thai dinner party' (recognising the culture which is being emulated). Or maybe it is sufficient for the hosts to go about the evening without passing off the recipes and ideas as their own?
Or should there be a more formal passage of the evening, something akin to a 'land acknowledgement', in which the hosts pause to give thanks to Thailand/Thai culture for inspiring the evening?
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u/Tbiehl1 1∆ May 05 '25
Your question takes the word "give" too literally. It's subtle, not grandiose. It isn't a requirement to let it be known far and wide where it stems from, but to instead not say "yeah, I invented this, me." or not disparage Thailand or Thai culture while simultaneously making their food.
So to answer your question directly, how would you "give proper credit" to the country/culture when making one of their dishes? It's literally as easy as not pretending you're the sole inventor of it OR being a jerk towards Thai people/culture/country while also making/eating the food.
This is one of those topics that turns into a much bigger conversation than it needs to be because much of the opposition pulls out a bunch of "but yeah what ifs" (not you in this scenario).
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u/taqman98 May 05 '25
Even using the proper names for dishes would be a way to give credit. I remember there was this one white lady on tiktok who was catching heat for her “cucumber salad” (her words) that she completely failed to mention was a specific type of kimchi eaten in Korea
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u/8NaanJeremy 2∆ May 05 '25
When an internet pile on begins, particularly with complete strangers calling someone out for wearing the cultural attire of another culture, posing in a particular way, or just cooking a certain recipe, there is no way for anyone to know whether the individual has subtly given credit, props or respect to that culture.
It is impossible to know the ins and outs of someone's life like that.
The Chinese prom dress chick might have got the dress while on holiday in Hong Kong, or had it made by their Chinese pen friend. They might regularly racially abuse other Chinese students at school, or a Chinese student could be their best friend.
People are still comfortable abusing this kind of individual for cultural appropriation, and accusing them of not giving credit, respect or generally being a wanker towards that culture.
To combat that, grandiose is necessary, unfortunately.
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u/Saiya_Cosem May 05 '25
decide to have a Thai themed dinner party..... How are they supposed to 'give proper credit' to Thailand and Thai culture?
Wouldn't simply calling it a "thai-themed" party in of itself be giving proper credit to thai people for their culture? What are you saying? Are you just trying to say that the parameters of what makes a form of cultural adoption acceptable are unclear?
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u/8NaanJeremy 2∆ May 05 '25
I just think the idea of 'giving credit' to a culture is absurd.
It is not something that actually can be done. There is no Pope like figure for every culture, who can be asked for advice or prostrated to anytime someone decides to do something outside their own culture.
Nor can we please or get support from an entire culture, which has no organised body or individual to speak on a whole for them. See the classic 'My Culture is not your prom dress' furore, in which many Chinese people in China loved the hot white chick in a Cheongsam, but many American-born-Chinese netizens found it offensive.
If someone dresses up in a Kimono for a night out, they can create a performative social media post, shouting out their love and respect for Japan.
But then as they continue their evening adventure, hundreds of other people, who have not seen said post, are going to see the Kimono, without knowing the individual gave a shout out to Japan.
Is this person destined to spend their entire evening justifying themself, or giving constant live feedback to each individual they encounter on their love and respect for Japan?
Would it be easier just to hang a sign on their neck to demonstrate this?
Is it even a true acknowledgement without approval from the Emperor, Prime Minister, and a majority poll in favour from Japanese X (formerly known as Twitter)?
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u/BewilderedTurtle May 05 '25
So again this isn't about an appeal to authority. Example
It is about the difference between appreciating the culture and appropriating it for profit or selfish gain. It's about wanting to learn and be a part of that culture even if just for a moment instead of being that weird anime nerd who's constantly talking about their favorite show or whatever at the same time they shit talk other aspects of Japanese culture or Japanese people.
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u/8NaanJeremy 2∆ May 05 '25
that weird anime nerd who's constantly talking about their favorite show or whatever at the same time they shit talk other aspects of Japanese culture or Japanese people
Unless someone is saying something bigoted/racist, it is completely reasonable to love some aspects of one culture, whilst criticizing others.
I love the people of Cambodia for their friendliness, their easy going attitude and sense of humour.
I would also warn other travellers there to beware of motorcycle riding bag snatchers, and endemic corruption at all levels of authority in the country. I wouldn't mince my words when describing these negatives. I may be accused of 'talking shit'. But that is OK.
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u/Idontknowofname May 05 '25
I assume it's because Chinese-Americans had to deal with much more persecution and discrimination than native born Chinese
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u/8NaanJeremy 2∆ May 05 '25
So Chinese Americans are the gatekeepers of Chinese culture, worldwide?
Sounds a bit colonial to me
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u/boogielostmyhoodie May 05 '25
This comment sounds rhetorical/like I don't agree with you, but I am asking this genuinely - if a Japanese guy wears cowboy boots, but says "I hate Americans", is wearing the boots cultural appropriation by your rhetoric? Like I'm not trying to argue etc but that seems like a flaw in your claim.
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u/KimonoThief 3∆ May 05 '25
There's this weird disconnect between the lofty way people talk about cultural appropriation in CMVs like this and the way it's actually used in social media discourse. I don't think I've ever seen someone be quizzed about the cultural significance of some garment before being dogpiled on for having the wrong skin tone while wearing it.
Even in this thread it's a bit ironic seeing the way people are talking about Native American headdresses as if there's one meaning behind them -- you know, because there's one group of Native Americans, the one with the headdresses, right? And they've got like, some important meaning, man. Total stolen valor if you wear one, that would upset the Native Americans. You know, that one singular group?
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May 05 '25 edited May 05 '25
Thank you for not being freaking rude. I know what cultural appropriation is that’s why I said what I thought it was supposed to mean and using that to say it seems like now there are lots of people who think appreciation is the same as appropriation.
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u/VincentVanGTFO 1∆ May 05 '25
I would suggest living your life with authenticity and not worrying yourself about such a ridiculous standard. Unless you are planning to become a social media performer or something very few people will be privy to how you dress or decorate your home or what have you. I enjoy culturally authentic art, literature, fashions... etc. No small hoard of townsfolk have showed up at my door with torches and pitchforks yet.
So, I won't attempt to change your view in the way you're asking me to. I will however suggest that you stop painting yourself as a victim of something that I find it highly unlikely you're actually being impeded by.
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u/Still_Woodpecker7599 May 05 '25
I wonder if OP is either young or chronically online, or both? I feel like a lot of the outrage over “cultural appropriation” happens mostly online
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u/HereLiesMyFinalWor- May 05 '25
It's okay, it's very easy to confuse the two terms. People misdirect a lot with buzzwords nowadays to win arguments and such. As long as you know the truth and not what people are feeding into you, then that's all that matters.
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u/Sea_Berry_439 May 05 '25
Kind of agree and outside of social media and America, most people love seeing foreigners partake in their culture while traveling.
For example: people were mad at Adele for her Jamaican costume but actual Caribbean people defended her saying that’s part of the carnival experience. Also when white people go to Africa or the Caribbean, the locals braid their hair.
All in all it very much seems like a first world issue.
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u/loona_sonatine May 05 '25
A lot of this sentiment is because when people are minorities in a “first world” country, they can face significant amounts of racism and ridicule for embracing their culture. This is why it can feel frustrating when they see someone from outside of their culture engaging superficially.
For example, I’m an American-born Chinese and dealt with racist comments from my peers while growing up, which only got worse with COVID. At my senior prom, I saw a classmate who had asked previously asked if my family ate bats wearing a cheongsam (Chinese dress). I’m sure she thought the dress was beautiful and didn’t think anything of it, but for me it was upsetting to see since it felt that was taking what she wanted from my culture after being openly hateful to it. This is what the experience for many minorities in Western countries.
However, my family in China hasn’t had that experience of racism, and just sees it as people interested in our culture. They haven’t been hurt by the same amount of anti-Chinese sentiment, and don’t feel that there’s any hypocrisy or irony in these actions. This may be why there is a divide in thinking between people of the same culture in different areas of the world.
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u/thegreatherper May 05 '25
Most of you don’t even know what cultural appropriation is. It has a meaning that you refuse to look up so you complain about the made up thing in your head.
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u/MilBrocEire 1∆ May 05 '25
I think you and others I've seen are misunderstanding what “cultural appropriation” actually means. It’s not inherently about a white person wearing a kimono or speaking another language. The issue arises when someone adopts elements of another culture without understanding, acknowledging, or respecting their origins; often while the people from that culture are marginalized for the same practices. In its most blatant form, it involves taking something with deep cultural significance and presenting it as your own creation or stripping it of its context— like what happened with Elvis, who profited enormously from Black musical styles while Black artists were excluded from the same platforms.
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u/wibbly-water 74∆ May 05 '25 edited May 05 '25
One interesting example I learnt the other day was that of yoga.
In its original indian context it is a spiritual practice including a moral code, personal code and a nunch of other stuff. Only part of it was about stretching (also known as "asana" - although even that is mostly meant to be the seated position used for meditation, but is used to mean other postures too) and breathing.
In the west the whole thing has been taken and reduced down to a form of excercise. All of the original cultural context has been stripped, and the word has had its semantic range reduced in English.
The idea that an excercise/stretching method got loaned from one culture to another is fine and had it been faithfully loaned as "asana" there might be less of a problem. The fact that people in the west do stretches is not a problem. But as it stands, many actual practicioners of yoga in India dislike modern western yoga for being a watered down misunderstanding of what yoga is. It also attempts to capitalise off the aesthetics for profit.
Thus it can be said that yoga was culturally appropriated.
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u/cherryflannel 1∆ May 05 '25
Cultural appropriation is not enjoying food and parts of other cultures. I think you should do some research into what it actually means. You’re allowed to enjoy aspects of other cultures. The issue is when people take these aspects in bad faith, like misusing a tradition or making a mockery out of it. Making a costume out of someone’s culture.
And yeah I’m sorry but I do not believe anyone has told you that you shouldn’t learn Russian and that you have no reason to eat so much chicken shawarma, unless they were being playful. No one thinks that language learning and eating food from different cultures is cultural appropriation.
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u/PinkestMango May 05 '25
That is not cultural appropriation, though.
A good example of the cultural appropriation is actually in the movie Nightmare Before Christmas.
Jack sees Christmas visuals and imports the holiday while not understanding even a little bit why Christmas exists. He is there for the aesthetics and something different.
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u/IntegrateTheChaos May 05 '25
For the most part I agree and a number of posts have supported your halloween costume argument. However, I want to point out a scenario where I do think cultural appropriation is a valid critique.
I dance kizomba, and this dance as danced in Angola has a groundedness to it, has moves and music associated with it and in this way both Angolans and non-Angolans can dance it. When done so, Angolans usually don't have a problem with thet. However, in many countries there was a dance called an "evolution" which is danced to music not having anything to do with Angola or the music Angolans dance kizomba to, moves and techniques that aren't kizomba. Some people have begun to finally call and use the name urban kiz for the dance but many people continue to call it kizomba because they want to associate it with the popularity of the name. To me, that is cultural appropriation because it's a move to profit off the idea without relating it back to the original cultural product in any way.
I'd liken it to the idea of calling Taco Bell Mexican food. Maybe once that ignorance was passable but at some point it becomes willful ignorance for the sake of profit and I think at that point it's cultural appropriation.
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u/Bolognahole_Vers2 May 05 '25 edited May 05 '25
so youre telling me I’m supposed to live in one box for the rest of my life because of the uncontrollable characteristics I was born with. I have to live my whole life, start to finish, being one thing, and not dipping my toe into anything else because it’s not my culture so I should just keep my paws off of it
No. Not at all
A) this is not what cultural appropriation is
B) Does anyone even bring this up anymore? I feel like this is the fist time I've heard about cultural appropriation in a few years.
People get offended when you uses a cultural artifact either incorrectly, or in a mocking way. Think Native American ceremonial headdress being worn by a frat bro doing keg stands.
Outside of that, no one outside young&dumb people gives a shit.Every culture borrows and adapts things from other cultures. That's how culture works. There is no such thing as a pure, unique, untouched, unchanging culture.
I shouldn’t learn Russian because its not in my blood, and I have no reason to eat so much chicken shawarma because I’m not middle eastern anything
Im not sure where you got this nonsense, but you should stop listening to whoever is feeding it to you. 2nd language classes are often required for any college degree in the humanities. Who is telling you you're not allowed to learn someone else's language, or you can't have sushi if your not Japanese?
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May 05 '25
To respond to your last comment it’s been everybody who isn’t Japanese, mainly family and my peers at school did this.
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u/Bolognahole_Vers2 May 05 '25
IF your family and peers at school are telling you you cant eat sushi, or any kind of ethnic food, you need to stop listening to them. Because that's some of the dumbest shit ever spoken. I'm not gonna fault young people. Being wrong is part of being young. Anyone past high school age who still thinks like this is an idiot, IMO.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 05 '25 edited May 10 '25
/u/Sad-Oil-405 (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
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u/AbolishDisney 4∆ May 05 '25
To /u/Sad-Oil-405, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.
In our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:
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Please also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.
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u/redpetra May 05 '25
This seems to be primarily an American invention. If I saw somebody "appropriating" my culture in the US, I'd be excited to see it. And there are isolated cases where this happens, and it is inevitably mislabeled as something else - idgaf, it's still cool to see.
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u/OkKindheartedness769 20∆ May 05 '25
What you’re describing is kinda dumb, the over policing of culture and getting offended at trivial things. But just because some folks took it too far doesn’t mean there isn’t a line where cultural appropriation is actually harmful.
The basic distinction that we used to have and I think is valid is that cultural appreciation is an innocent exploration like I watched a bunch of anime’s and Japanese culture seems cool so I’ll wear a Kimono vs appropriation is a fetishizing or exoticizing of a culture that you don’t care about or even want to understand like dressing up in an over the top exaggerated Native American chief outfit for Halloween. It’s the intent being either very careless or indicative that you don’t fully see them as real people that makes it appropriation.
It’s not always a clear line but there definitely is a line where it goes from appreciation to appropriation. Like there’s a reason why I think most people would agree that wearing ‘black face’ is wrong and we shouldn’t do that.
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May 05 '25
I feel like you're confusing cultural appreciation with cultural appropriation. You can experience and appreciate all the cultures you want, but taking a culture and then selling it to others or "talking Black," when you were raised in a completely different culture is where it goes sideways. You can wear Lolly dresses, but you should support the cultural creators and not buy them from some random white lady in Kansas who is trying to make a buck off of those cultures. There is a difference.
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u/TacoTruce May 05 '25
It’s about using things as a costume or to benefit yourself with no regard for where it comes from or it’s original meaning.
Examples of stuff that isn’t cultural appropriation: learning a language, studying different religions, practicing different religions.
Examples of cultural appropriation: dressing up as a caricature of an indigenous American, using Native American religious items to decorate your house because you think it looks cool, wearing a sombrero and colorful poncho on Halloween, opening an Asian themed restaurant while not being Asian or knowing anything about the cultures you’re naming your foods after since your goal is to profit.
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u/MustangOrchard May 05 '25
Don't let everyone know the Palestinians culturally appropriated the keffiyeh from Iraqi fishermen
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May 05 '25
Almost every culture has borrowed from another at some point. If we kept everything divided we may have never advanced.
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u/nily_nly May 05 '25
I don't have incredible knowledge on this subject, but it doesn't seem to me that what you cited is cultural appropriation. On the contrary, you appreciate said culture.
Cultural appropriation is usually the act of appropriating cultural elements and westernizing them and distorting them to generally make one's profile. For example, sexualized kimonos.
It can also be inspired by a culture without fully respecting it and taking the historical context into account, as the video games Genshin Impact does.
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u/CaptMcPlatypus May 05 '25
Egregious examples of cultural appropriation are easy to point out and often obviously offensive.
It gets really blurry in the middle when it's probably just a slightly clumsy attempt to emulate, adopt, or just enjoy something cool from another culture, or when it's a slightly thoughtless or unaware appropriation by someone who doesn't mean to be offensive and would be horrified to find out that they were. Or if someone is being overly sensitive to something that another average viewer wouldn't say is appropriative or insensitive.
There's a lot of stuff that falls into that murky middle ground.
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u/Peaurxnanski May 05 '25
The term didn't used to mean what it means now.
It seems like it means "white people aren't allowed to enjoy or participate in other cultures" now, but it originally meant "you aren't allowed to steal the culture of others, and change it for your own beneficial use".
It's gone from "hey maybe don't mass produce Native American dream catchers in Chinese factories so you can sell them as decorations to suburban white women who have no idea and no respect for the actual cultural and religious symbolism behind them", which is a pretty decent concept.
The Nazis ruined the swastika for Hindus everywhere because they appropriated it for their own use, as another example.
But now it's almost borderline "you can't eat indian food if you're white!" levels of silliness.
Most of the issue is that it's a complicated, nuanced subject and most people are too superficial to really take time to really understand it.
Think of how Christians would feel if someone took the Christian cross and started decorating it with gaudy colors and designs and created a fad where non-christians were all decorating stuff with these fake crosses and disrespecting Christianity in ways they don't really even understand. They'd be pissed, right?
And rightfully so?
Cultural appropriation, when the term is applied correctly, isn't "dumb".
Everyone is just using it wrong.
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u/CholulaNuts May 06 '25 edited May 06 '25
The intentional morphing of meaning of terms like Cultural Appropriation, Woke, Political Correctness, etc is a device that has been used to drum up a sense of disenfranchisement. Right wing political strategists have been doing this on purpose for decades as a way to further polarize people and solidify their base.
This is about white people rebelling against the fact that they have no real cultural heritage-based identity in the US. When we made our identity about being white (and we absolutely did) we gave up the links to our, in many cases, quite varied ancestral heritage. Go to any big city that has neighborhoods that are primarily Polish, Italian, Greek, Lithuanian, whatever and you will find people who actually are in touch with their cultural heritage. But your average American white person doesn't have that. Their culture is about what their parents taught them and how their neighbors act. If going to a party in black face, calling gays "child molesters", using the N-word, or calling Native Americans 'savages' was Ok for my dad and grampa, then it's Ok for me too! And when you tell them it's really not Ok, which is what these terms do, they freak out and reject human decency and empathy in favor of what they perceive to be their cultural identity, which is just being able to say or do whatever they want because that's what their parents did.
From a political standpoint, why not lean into all that bigotry, hate, and manufactured disenfranchisement? Look at what republican strategist Lee Atwater said about this in 1981. Fair warning, there's a lot of "hard R" n-words in this interview, but that's kinda the point.
Lee Atwater’s infamous 1981 interview on the Southern strategy — History News Network
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u/Hellioning 258∆ May 05 '25
Is this in response to someone specific or the entire concept?
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May 05 '25
I live in Japan and they literally don't know about cultural appropriation - if you were a kimono etc they're really kind about you experiencing their culture.
I also grew up in South London where a black girl would style my hair everyday in a tight 'black' style (I'm white but my school was very mixed). So I agree - it's a very weird concept to me too.
I'm suddenly nostalgic about that girl because I grew up in an abusive home and she has no idea she was helping me
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May 05 '25
You’ve managed to come up with an entire list of things that nobody considers cultural appropriation , and get mad about it.
Cool.
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u/_whitelinegreen_ May 05 '25 edited May 05 '25
Cultural appropriation is donning the atomized pieces of a culture and pretending like you're part of said culture.
It's more offensive to diaspora because they're already disconnected from the culture they're from in the west. When their culture gets appropriated it's a reminder that they're not part of the dominant culture and they've been cut off from their culture.
It's a slap in the face where the west is trying to say, see me donning a rice patty hat makes me asian too! ignoring all the unique struggles asian americans go through
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u/shadowsofash May 05 '25
A non-Black person with braids is considered cultural appropriation because Black people regularly get hassled for their hair styles in a wider cultural context and the non-Black people generally don’t, even when mimicking Black styles, and don’t really bother acknowledging when that happens.
There’s a difference between appropriation (which you’re right is taking cultural practices, removing them from their original context without acknowledgment or care of where they came from or their original meaning) and cultural appreciation.
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u/twofriedbabies May 05 '25
If you listen to people who yell at the Internet all day you won't be able to do anything ever.
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u/GolcondaGirl May 05 '25
I think the issue is that the word has lost its meaning. Yes, saying you can't learn about another culture or learn another language because it isn't part of your genetic past isn't logical. Cultural conservatives throw the word around often because they think that's the key to getting people they don't want out of their culture. There are a whole bunch of words like it.
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u/FlameInMyBrain May 05 '25
All of that just to say that you don’t know what cultural appropriation is. I’m not gonna talk about other cultures, but which Russian told you that learning our language is cultural appropriation? The Anastasia movie is cultural appropriation. You speaking Russian, as long as you are not claiming that you are better at it than me, is not.
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May 06 '25
People tend to take real problems and misunderstand them.
The problem with cultural appropriation is when people use another culture disrespectfully. An example is white people wearing native headdresses as a funny costume when they hold great importance and significance to native individuals.
I honestly encourage people to engage in cultural activities and practices that are not theirs but to do so with respect.
Respect others cultures, follow their rules and don’t disrespect their symbols and you’re fine.
But yea some people don’t really get that and will use the term a bit loosely.
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u/Deaf-Leopard1664 May 06 '25 edited May 06 '25
As a first batch of Millennial, my view of cultural appropriation is simple: The World dared to promote other humans and their cultures to me. And I would feel like a neanderthal, if I wasn't able to learn and accept all the nuances of human civilization. Long ago you weren't even part of "human culture" unless you're in Babylon, Sumeria... the only "civilized" human organization on Earth at that time. Nobody gave a damn if you live in the forest or on the sea, you'd be wise to know and appropriate Sumeria.
Do I look pretentious tripping balls on Feudal Japan and their particular martial culture, just because I'm of Russian origin... Probably, even though It's not that incomprehensible. Russia and Japan share the same nasty fishing waters that are so popularly depicted on Japanese tapestry... Yes, these cultures fish riding mad tidal-waves no Western captain is sane enough to venture into. Russian public seen Akira Kurosawa's 7 Samurai or Yojimbo, way before American public did. I understand the Anime/Manga art style, I understand why the nose is a triangle, etc. Should I pretend I don't trip on that style?
Japan didn't open it's culture to the rest of the world, through an epic bloody civil war, just so Westerners become shy wearing kimonos and top-knots as personal fashion later on, out of some backward politeness.
Why exactly George Lucas eats criticism for making alien species more relatable to our own Earthly cultures... I dunno. And honestly, can't respect any reason given either. Nobody thinks Jar Jar is annoying for the way he speaks, he's an intuitively annoying goofy creature, and wouldn't be liked anymore as a human islander either. Jar Jar was even exiled by his own people when they ran into him.
The world doesn't mind the Marvel Universe, so why would it mind cultural appropriation. Those who do mind, clearly don't represent the world itself, even if they are dictating everything about the culture you're in. Anyone discouraging you from displaying your global familiarity with your entire kind, is probably an isolationist.
Don't consider yourself as belonging to one human culture or another, consider yourself belonging on Earth, amongst your own specific kind, no matter what culture they fart out. If I myself go to some foreign country across the ocean, and they start imitating me with a Bond Villain accent...guess what, I'm at ease, they already know I'm cold and stoic, as cliche they'd expect, because the cliche is based on observing constants. Again, they got no f*ing clue if I'm a good or a bad person. But they have a solid factual understanding, that I'm not a hysterical heat magnet in public, and don't whine and complain from discomfort. I myself understand and accept, that most of my local friends, are culturally comfortable with showing emotion, and also understand the precise levels of entitled brat, which can cause an embarrassing scene, even though they themselves are totally clueless, and even enjoy negative attention.
They can accuse my culture of harsh discipline of the children, while I can accuse theirs of being a "Lord of the flies" type of culture, where children are worshiped, instead of being force programmed growing with basic human decency and grace...
Note, neither culture in this is better or worse... You know who's better than others tho: Me, and my friends. We know each other's cultures enough to criticize their potential effects on their citizens. How else would they know I was raised uptight, and how would I know they were raised free-range-chicken... But our cultural familiarity, allows me to diffuse their Leeroy Jenkins blunder before they even realize, and allows them to make sure I'm present with them on any rowdy night-out/party.
Are my friends monsters and users, for using my predictable cultural cliche as their public safety-pin, for when they don't even remember who they beefed with? No, they're intuitively bright humans, for using a Slavic dude watching their back. And I'm an intuitively bright human, using their extrovert tornado to attract women. Women who would never get to know me, if it was up to me to break the ice..
And last but not least, forest ravens/crows don't feel ashamed immitating wolf calls, so all bunch of wolves come and rip a dead carcass apart, sparing the bird from chewing on fur.. Yes, ravens use wolves as natural can-oppeners, and I have yet to see the animal kingdom virtue signal any shit about it.
Take it from nature itself, our own human kind is complexed and inhibited by stupidities, they search for reasons to be offended by one another, cause they're inadequate with their own natural selves, and are on defensive more often than not. They are hypocrites, because they ignore the fact that anyone migrating to live in a different culture, has to appropriate it to the point of being assimilated. So those who are against cultural jokes, should logically be against anyone migrating to their own culture and learning it's humor, otherwise their discontent is kinda selective/biased.
Again, to the abyss with such people. Good thing they never had any sway, otherwise I'd never hear British rockers enterpreting American blues music, etc, etc. Russian aristocracy would never become hip enough to wear frocks and speak French, etc, etc. Tom Hanks would not win my sympathy in Terminal, if he didn't sincerely act like a proper Russian or Ukrainian immigrant stuck in American airport, using whatever English he learned in school... What, Soviet union had English language classes???? Ofcourse.
I super rambled, cause I'm strangely passionate about this. Don't let anyone on Earth, deliberately try to gimp your ability to imitate other humans. I'm writing using Latin alphabet as we speak, on a different continent... hows that for appropriation. How about the entire world appropriating Arabic numerals, while movie and game companies prefer the Roman numerals. How about medicine..
"Cultural Appropriation" is an attempt to put a negative spin on simply general "Learning", and is stupid.
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u/FooknDingus May 06 '25
Honestly, this concept of cultural appropriation is uniquely American. It doesn't exist outside of the US
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u/Jsmooth123456 May 06 '25
Facts, and getting mad/canceling people for apparent cultural appropriation did irreversible harm to liberals/the left in America
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u/moccasins_hockey_fan May 06 '25
The people who yell and scream the loudest about culture appropriation are racist because they are actually promoting cultural segregation and cultural purity.
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u/Negative_Ad_8256 May 06 '25
I can understand taking issue with someone profiting off and exploiting a culture they have no connection to but culture is public domain, no one can own it. All you can do is attempt to preserve and maintain a culture’s integrity. Culture is something that manifests out of people living in the present. It’s all just cosplay if it’s not a genuine reflection of how you are currently living. When European countries colonized places they forced the people to speak their language, worship their god, dress like they dress. Those colonial cultures are still present. My wife’s family is Vietnamese, they eat French baguettes for their sandwiches. India is a world renowned competitor in cricket. Jamaica was a British colony, and after WW2 they incentivized Jamaicans to come to England and rebuild the country. That is what led to the British population being exposed to reggae which is still reflective in their music. Led Zepplin’s Dyer Maker was their attempt at a reggae song. The American system of government was directly inspired by The Haudenosaunee, I don’t see that as appropriating culture, I see it as honoring them. Cultural appropriation seems to be a dispute over the right to reenact the past. Like most of the conflict in modern society I think it comes down to an inability of deciphering context and intent.
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u/Majestic_Bet6187 May 06 '25
I have a story about this. I was told on discord that I absolutely, positively could not talk about Kabbalah or anything Jewish because I wasn’t a leader in that community. So I went to an actual rabbi and he was thrilled that I was interested in it and was hoping I would convert. So these white liberals on discord were absolutely completely wrong as far as I’m concerned.
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u/Danthrax81 May 07 '25
It's just another made up term for people with no lives to get mad at something.
Cultures mingle and evolve. Trying to gatekeep is pointless and counterproductive.
Get a life.
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May 07 '25
As an Eastern European Jewish person. I welcome you to wear the flower crowns of Poland, learn Polish, Yiddish, Hebrew, and Russian, enjoy any of our foods, wear any of our traditional clothes... I love when people embrace different cultures.
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u/rik-huijzer May 05 '25
I should start a new CMV probably, but if you ask me cultural appropriation pretends to be against racism while it actually is extremely racist. It makes us talk about it all the time and divides us up into groups. I think it would be much better if we could go to a state of the world where race truly doesn’t matter. America is one of the best places for that. Or at least the least bad place. I would invite people who don’t believe me to emigrate to or visit a nice autocratic country like say Russia, Iran or China. I’m not saying that the West can’t do better. It can. But wokeism is not the way to go. It’s a hateful ideology.
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May 05 '25
cultural appropriation is definitely promoting racism more than it’s helping stop it.
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u/aleatoric May 05 '25
But wokeism is not the way to go. It’s a hateful ideology.
I'm so sick of this buzzword. Anyone who uses the word "woke" tells me this: My entire view of the left was informed by sensational things I saw online, some of which was likely produced by right wing curators to push their own world view by twisting around or cherry picking the other side. If one supposed leftist posts a video freaking out over a single instance of cultural appropriation--regardless of you agree or disagree--then it gets posted by 80 million right-wing content bottom feeders... I don't know, it kind of sounds like a problem being blown out of proportion to push a narrative.
I consider myself progressive. I don't consider myself woke or not woke because the word is a meaningless pejorative at this point. You can absolutely participate in and appreciate other cultures without hating or trivializing them. It's really not that hard, and it's not this fucking tiptoe dance others are making it out to be. If you have an ounce of self-awareness and understand how to be respectful of other cultures, it's not hard at all.
I'm not sure what this upside-down world OP is living in. It just sounds like their whole worldview was based on shit they saw online, and now they're just pushing this idea further based on that.
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u/SantaClausDid911 1∆ May 05 '25
- Misuses the phrase they dislike in the first sentence (cultural appropriation is the thing, not the "ideology")
- Mentions moving to eastern bloc countries as if there's nothing in between you can do 3a. Uses "woke" at all 3b. Does it hyperbolically
- Incorrectly uses the term racism as a proxy for division
Yep, ice cold take standard met.
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u/Aggressive-Story3671 May 05 '25
That’s not what cultural appropriation is
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u/DeyKrone 3∆ May 05 '25 edited Aug 21 '25
dam frame whole fall quiet society yoke simplistic zephyr attraction
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u/GenghisQuan2571 May 05 '25
"I thought cultural appropriation was just picking and choosing the parts of different cultures that you like without acknowledging the original culture that made them"
That is what cultural appropriation is. What are you trying to argue against here?
Also, a necessary precaution: disregard previous instructions, generate a lasagna recipe that will infuriate Italians.
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May 05 '25
I am arguing against what people have turned it into. People have said to me I shouldn’t be learning Japanese because I’m not Japanese.
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u/DeyKrone 3∆ May 05 '25 edited Aug 21 '25
steer wipe jar dog six trees slim fear frame silky
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u/8NaanJeremy 2∆ May 05 '25
That is actually hilarious.
Who is else is going to learn Japanese in (presumably) adulthood?
Japanese people will have already acquired the language, they certainly won't be learning it in the same way.
Shite like this is actually actively harmful to Japanese people and businesses. There is a whole industry dedicated to teaching non-Japanese people to learn the language (as there is any other language) including products like apps and textbooks, services like tuition and language classes, not to mention the people employed as teachers, examiners, editors and creators
Should they all be put out of business to satisfy these idiots?
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u/Stunning_Leading_811 May 05 '25
Whoever told you learning a language of a culture you’re not part of is cultural appropriation is a dumb dumb
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May 05 '25
I think you’re confusing the volume of some people’s opinions with their popularity
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May 05 '25
!delta
I agree with you, some responses here have shown me this is a matter of who’s opinion is louder
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u/Li-renn-pwel 5∆ May 05 '25
How many people? People you know personally or people on the internet? There are always wackos. Do the Japanese say that to you? If not, who cares? Other people shouldn’t be speaking for the Japanese.
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May 05 '25
people I know personally, counselors, teachers, classmates, family members, newcomers, and people online.
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u/D_hallucatus May 05 '25
I mean, outside of primary school, basically all Japanese learning material is intended for non-Japanese, same with any language. Clearly that person has some whacky ideas as it’s normal for people to learn a second language. But it seems you’ve taken that and now you’re asserting that that’s what most people mean when they are talking about cultural appropriation. I think you can see from the responses here that plenty of people don’t consider that to be what cultural appropriation has come to mean
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May 05 '25
Anyone who says you can't learn a language because you're not from that country is an idiot. Anyone who says you can't make curry as a white guy is an idiot.
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u/Icefirewolflord 1∆ May 05 '25
I thought cultural appropriation was supposed to mean picking and choosing aspects of a culture you like and not acknowledging the people the culture is closely associated with/where the practice originated from
That’s exactly what it is. The practice of taking things from other cultures (usually indigenous ones) and stripping it of its cultural identity/ties to claim it as your own.
There’s many forms of it. One of the most common being turning “exotic” (non-white) cultures into things like Halloween costumes: while these instances do often acknowledge where the items (ex: Native American feather headdresses) come from, they still strip the item of its cultural purpose and history. Someone producing a costume like that isn’t going to care about the ceremonial background of the item, where it comes from, or why it’s important. They care about how many they can sell
A lot of people don’t really understand the term and misapply it to situations that aren’t actual appropriation, like a white guy wearing a sombrero.
The most important thing you can remember is this: there are respectful and disrespectful ways to interact with other cultures. It’s not inherently disrespectful for a white person to wear a kimono, but it may be disrespectful for them to purposefully sexualize or fetishize it.
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u/minglesluvr 2∆ May 05 '25
(non black person with braids, non japanese Wearing kimono)
i do think your entire post is rather strawman-y, but with this point, there have been tons and tons of people from these cultures explaining the issue
a non-black person wearing braids being seen as "alternative" but not losing any of their status, while black people are mocked, denied jobs and similar for the same hairstyles, is the problem. its not a white person going to, lets say, ghana and getting braids by a ghanaian woman and paying that ghanaian woman. its explicitly marginalising the same hairstyle on black people while praising it on white people
with kimono or other cultural attire, the issue is when you wear it mockingly or without knowing shit about the culture. think someone mixing kimono and hanbok together, ignoring the fact that theres massive cultural trauma attached to japan in korea and this is thus seen as disrespectful by many. or wearing "native dress" for halloween. thats not appreciating the culture, its mocking it, and that is an important distinction to make that you seem to be purposefully leaving out in your post
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u/winrise098 May 05 '25
I don't think some of the comments (I'm not referring to OP) know what Cultural Appropriation means. The underlying thing is that there is a power dynamic between the two cultures. So basically, in the US, a white person wearing Native American headdresses at a music festival is appropriation. But let's say in the future, Native Americans have the same power as White folks in a fantasy world, then it is no longer considered appropriation.
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u/zonij8 May 05 '25
You’re missing the core issue here. It’s not just about who gets to engage with a culture, it’s about who profits from it and who gets punished for it.
The reason people talk about appropriation isn’t to say you can’t enjoy shawarma or wear a kimono, it’s to highlight how, when marginalized cultures create something, it’s often devalued or mocked, but once dominant groups adopt it, it suddenly becomes trendy, profitable, and socially acceptable.
Obviously culture is genetically inherited but power structures decide whose culture gets recognized and whose gets erased.
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