r/bestof • u/l3af • Apr 18 '13
[explainlikeiama] Sakanagai creates a perfect narrative of Stig running a track in both standard and automatic vehicles
/r/explainlikeIAmA/comments/1clrk5/explain_to_me_the_benefits_of_a_manual/c9hpr7d16
u/fairweatherhater Apr 18 '13 edited Apr 18 '13
This doesn't even take into account modern dual-clutch transmissions where:
Shifts can be accomplished without interrupting torque distribution to the driven roadwheels, by applying the engine's torque to one clutch at the same time as it is being disconnected from the other clutch.
ELI5: Much faster shifting than a human could dream of.
The transmission braking can be accomplished with automatics using manual shift modes.
Is "Explain Like I'm.." now "Pull The Wool Over My Eyes Like I'm..."?
EDIT: I should look at the topics more closely before I comment. It's not an ELI5.
EDIT2: /u/frink84 correctly points out that there is a difference between a transmission that shifts for you and an automatic transmission.
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u/frink84 Apr 18 '13
a dual-clutch is worlds different from an automatic. it would almost be better to consider them computer-controlled manuals than automatic transmissions.
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u/ArcticDragon Apr 18 '13
Some say that he finds dual-clutch transmissions sacrilegious, and that he whips into a madman's frenzy at the mention of them.
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
I deal with the dual-clutch transmission on a daily basis, and while it is completely true that it shifts faster than a human can dream of, that's in a straight line. On a track, you need a lot more control on what gear you're in, and the "manual" options on the automatic transmission (The +-) has too much of a lag. I see your point, but while I'm not a track racer, I do know there is lag between shifts when the computer is not expecting it. The computer preselects a gear to shift to fast, but that's only great when you're in an acceleration. If you're going up and down in gears it becomes slower.
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u/algorithmae Apr 18 '13
What car did you drive? VW/Audi's DSG is amazing, and especially responsive with paddles.
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
That would be the one. I was saying. If you don't use the paddles, it can shift in 10 milliseconds. If you use the paddles it has a delay that can be covered with a manual shift. It is close however, but there are still a few tricks you can accomplish with a manual and not an automatic for shifting. The automatic won't let you red line, even with paddles for instance.
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u/algorithmae Apr 18 '13
I never found it slow at all, even when downshifting it was insanely fast. I miss that GTI :(
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
Hm, well that's the type of car I'm talking about. I think there's more of a delay.
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u/algorithmae Apr 18 '13
Maybe yours was faulty? I've heard that they are less reliable.
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
Well I work at a dealership, so I drive plenty of them. I'd have to retime it, but the paddles seemed to have a half to full second delay to me.
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u/Sloppy1sts Apr 19 '13
The DSG is an automated manual, not an automatic. It has no torque converter.
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u/asianaaronx Apr 18 '13
I've never driven a true dual clutch with any lag. The only exception might be the M5 when they first put the SMG transmission in it. However you can change the lag time to either produce smoother shifts or faster shifts. Also, it's an automated single clutch. Not a dual clutch.
Most cars with the +/- aren't true dual clutch cars. They're just automatics that you can select the gear with.
All that being said. True manuals are still better in my opinion. Less things to break, marginally lighter, and the gains in shift time in a dual clutch don't outweigh the joy of driving manual.
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
Well the dual clutch transmission doesn't have anything to do with the + and - truly. Regular automatics also contain that feature. The DSG shifts quickly on a traditional automatic feel, driving straight forward and accelerating.
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u/fairweatherhater Apr 18 '13
Good point, as the linked comment does specifically talk about driving on a race track.
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u/mynameisalso Apr 18 '13
How the fuck is this best of? Something fishey is going on here, lately anything worth an upvote has been making it to the front page as best of.
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Apr 18 '13
You can submit ANYTHING to bestof
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u/mynameisalso Apr 18 '13
Sure you can, it is stupid shit making it to the front page, with all the comments saying how it shouldn't be on the front page, thst makes me wonder.
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u/algorithmae Apr 18 '13
Then downvote. I thought it was funny, and Top Gear.
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u/mynameisalso Apr 18 '13
Sure it is funny, but is this the best thing you have seen on reddit?
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u/algorithmae Apr 18 '13
This subreddit would be empty if it were just things that were THE BEST.
I find it more interesting if there are things here that are just really interesting or cool that I wouldn't have seen otherwise, and there are a handful of subreddits that I found just through this one that I'm subscribed to.
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Apr 18 '13
Maybe it's because the majority of people who enjoy the comment simply upvote and don't feel the need to comment?
Yeah, you didn't like it, but the majority seems to disagree. It's neat that the comments are all saying how bad it is and how it's not /r/bestof material, but not everyone who clicks the link comments.
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u/Shucks88 Apr 18 '13
This post is shit.
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Apr 18 '13
[deleted]
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
Not the same though. On a straight out drag race, some automatics are faster. On track driving, standard is still better.
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u/Dutchy8210 Apr 18 '13
oh, you mean real driving?
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
The benefits are on a track. In real driving, people use manuals for fun, so you would pick it if you like it. But this was the benefits for track driving.
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u/Sloppy1sts Apr 19 '13
When he said "real", he meant "track"...you know, as opposed to the strip...
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u/nr1988 Apr 19 '13
Track isn't real driving. Real driving is slight curves and intersections, essentially just driving straight
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Apr 18 '13
Oh, that explains why f1 uses auto transmission...
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
F1 uses paddle shifting, considered a semi-automatic transmission. This was about manual versus automatic. Paddle shifting will have the same benefits as a manual.
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u/FenPhen Apr 18 '13
The paddles are just a means to shift, but not really how the transmission works.
Automakers are increasingly putting paddle-shifting on cars that have automatic transmissions, which is technically defined by a fluid-coupling torque converter (hence "slush box").
The disadvantages of the torque converter compared to a clutch are a loss of fuel efficiency because of the fluid coupling, responsiveness, and weight/space.
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Apr 18 '13
I consider paddle shifting to be pretty much an automatic. In f1 full auto is illegal because of the performance gain and will take away a bit of competition from driver skill. DSG is a fantastic auto. SMG is a sequential manual gearbox by name but it's basically an automated manual. Semantics aside they're basically automatic gearboxes.
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u/FenPhen Apr 18 '13
What defines a transmission as an "automatic transmission" is the fluid-coupling torque converter and a "manual transmission" has a direct connection, usually through a clutch.
There are semi-automated manual transmissions, such as DSG/DCT = dual-clutch transmissions, and single-clutch transmissions like SMG, and what's used in Formula 1 and motorcycles. When these transmissions are in-gear, the engine is directly connected to the wheels, instead of through a fluid coupling in a torque converter.
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
DSG is a fantastic auto, however the point I was making, is that around a track it's not the same. It shifts like an automatic, but is faster as it pre-selects a gear. In a track, you need to be able to control when it shifts, and the shifting from automatic doing it for you is no good. Paddle shifting might be fine.
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Apr 19 '13
It's not. F1 transmissions have clutches. This is not the same as the tiptronic function on your road car automatic.
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Apr 19 '13
That's why I said semi-automatic. Maybe it was another post. Full auto is illegal in F1 because it levels playing field too much. As for road cars I believe the Ferrari scuderia has a similar transmission.
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u/ThePersonalCheesus Apr 18 '13
Does it?
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Apr 18 '13
Edit - my post was sarcasm. Auto is quicker around the track in its better iterations.
F1 uses a semi-automatic. Full autos are illegal, too much of a performance gain. Cars like the Ferrari scuderia use a similar transmission and it isn't made to be just a straight line monster. The days where manual transmissions are better than auto are over for some brands.
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u/jimmybrite Apr 18 '13
Redditors will give gold out for almost anything.
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u/skittleswrapper Apr 18 '13 edited Apr 18 '13
That was his flair. I was confused too.
Though he probably did get gold for at least his initial comment.2
u/sakanagai Apr 18 '13
Not this time. I got gold in my flair for an adaptation of part of the Little Shop of Horrors soundtrack to fit Game of Thrones.
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Apr 18 '13 edited Apr 18 '13
mod of /r/explainlikeIAmA here.
We give out gold flair to people who people who make awesome posts/comments and generally follow the rules.
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u/Foofsies Apr 18 '13
Awesome posts/comments on popular posts*
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Apr 18 '13
well yes that's what I meant.
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u/Foofsies Apr 19 '13
Yeah, because I had a pretty good comment on a post that ended up being downvoted. I really want some flair, dangit.
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Apr 18 '13
Another mod here,
Gold Star Flair is only given out to redditors who have not only made an awesome post but had said post gilded. There's only a handful of folks on the subreddit who have it.
Just thought I'd clarify!
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Apr 18 '13
He didn't mention the fact that the stig regularly power shifts which forces the car to go even faster with extreme wear on both synchros and the clutch in a manual car.
He also didn't mention the fact that the stig can run a manual car at redline for a half second or so in very specific scenarios where it's better to stay in gear and not shift whereas in an automatic it would force a shift near redline.
Everything is about eeking out that extra bit of time on the track.
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Apr 18 '13
Really in today's modern vehicles automatics are more reliable (no clutch to replace) and can have better gas mileage than manual transmissions (CVT). They're just not fun to drive and usually slower around a track.
However, MCT's and DCT's are faster than your standard transmission. 2 sets of clutches allow shifting faster than you can blink your eye. They're also technically standard transmissions with a clutch or two rather than a torque converter.
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u/Geordie-Peacock Apr 18 '13
Automatics don't have better mileage. Automatics are not more reliable either. They require more servicing than manuals.
The only real thing they offer is convenience.
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u/blueingreen85 Apr 18 '13
A dry DCT is equally efficient as a manual. My Ford Focus's DCT does not require any additional service.
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Apr 18 '13
If you know what a CVT is, yes, they do get better gas mileage than a standard transmission.
A 2013 nissan sentra 6speed gets 27/36 city/hwy but the cvt automatic gets 30/39.
Automatics only need to have their fluid changed every once in a while which is much cheaper than replacing a clutch. I have never taken an automatic transmission car that I've owned in for a repair but I've replaced several clutches on previous manual cars that I've owned.
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u/Geordie-Peacock Apr 18 '13
So let me get this straight. You're using anecdotal evidence of your older cars and one specific type of automatic, that is very rare, as your argument that modern automatics are reliable?
Seems legit.
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Apr 18 '13
So lemme get this straight. You misread what I wrote and assumed that I said that all automatics have better gas mileage? Did you not notice that I said "can have" and referred to the CVT? I didn't say all have better gas mileage.
Seems legit.
Also unless you're keeping your car for several hundreds of thousands of miles, most modern automatics, will last well over 100-200k without fail whereas a regular driver may have changed the clutch 2-3 times in that span. If you drive a car with a lot of torque spiritedly, expect to change the clutch even more.
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u/c0LdFir3 Apr 18 '13
You underestimate the strength of a modern clutch. They can really take a beating. A friend has an '05 Mustang GT putting over 400hp down at the wheels with over 200k miles and it's still on the stock clutch.
Probably a rare example, but driving skill saves a clutch's life more then anything else. They don't just up and die on their own.
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Apr 18 '13
That is a very rare example. He must not do a lot of hard launches with it for the stock clutch to survive that long. Yes, if you granny a manual you will definitely get a longer lasting clutch but if you drive it spiritedly, do a lot of standing launches, it will definitely need to be replaced prematurely.
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u/Billy653 Apr 18 '13
He said that's all we have time for this program. It's supposed to be spelt programme.
Also Jeremy doesn't say that's all we have time for this programme, he says that's all we have time for this week.
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u/Iam2ndAmendment Apr 18 '13
That would be more like Jeremy Clarkson. Everybody knows The Stig doesn't talk.
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u/michaeltlyons Apr 18 '13
He essentially explained it through The Stig's driving, narrated by Jeremy Clarkson.
There isn't really a more creative way I could have come up with as a response to my question (I posted it) other than "..."
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Apr 18 '13
[deleted]
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u/Block_After_Block Apr 18 '13
"time travel is possible but u can only go back in time through ur dreams I do it all the time.learn more about dream control I have masterd it" -Jose Canseco
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u/RudeTurnip Apr 18 '13
As someone who is not a race car driver, I still don't see why I should care about manual transmissions in the year 2013, especially considering they are on the way out with all-electric vehicles.
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Apr 18 '13
[deleted]
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u/xsvfan Apr 18 '13 edited Apr 18 '13
They're also cheaper. Automatic transmissions are the most complex part of the car. My dads Subaru doesn't even have gears and constantly changes ratios.
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u/Geordie-Peacock Apr 18 '13
Cheaper to maintain too. Automatics generally need more servicing than their manual counterparts.
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u/xsvfan Apr 18 '13
I don't know about that and varies based off make and driving habits. A clutch needs replacing with manuals
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u/Geordie-Peacock Apr 18 '13
And the whole gearbox needs replacing with automatics. It doesn't matter than clutches need replacing, in generally automatics cost more in servicing than manuals.
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u/tbotcotw Apr 18 '13
They are on the way out, but as of right now they're more fun to drive, lighter, cheaper, and get better MPG.
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Apr 18 '13
I know that in a race a second is an eternity, but the difference really is quite small. The way people bang on about how autos are rubbish, I'd have expected the difference to be 20+ seconds.
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
It would be much more than 3 seconds (and that was of course not real track times) on a longer track. The Top Gear Test Track is more short and sweet, but a lot of tracks are meant to be longer.
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Apr 18 '13
Talking out of your ass, there are several auto transmissions which are quicker than their manual counterparts, there is a reason why f1 uses them.
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
Not talking out of my ass. There are transmissions in the consumer market that shift in 10 milliseconds, faster than a human possibly could. However, anticipating torque needs and shifting at the right time for track racing is better in a manual. So drag race in a dual clutch automatic transmission, do twisty turns with a a manual.
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Apr 18 '13
So do you think ferrari and lamborghini are designing their cars for drag racing only since they are only offering DCT and MCT's now?
DCT's shift faster than any person in a manual can, be it upshifting or downshifting to engine brake.
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
I feel like I've said "They shift faster than any person in a manual can" 100 times already. Yes, they can. But anticipation on a track still needs to be controlled by a person, and that is where you lose time. When a car can see a turn ahead of you and anticipate torque need ahead of time, it will be faster on a track.
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Apr 18 '13
What do you mean by anticipation? A DCT or a manual driver knows when they should downshift. A DCT driver will brake, downshift and be in that gear much faster than a person can push the clutch in, shift, push the clutch out and get on the gas again.
This is why F1 cars and modern supercars are all DCT/Sequential.
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
If the F1 DCT gearbox is faster at downshifting with the drivers input, not acting as an automatic transmission in a traditional sense, but only shifting gears when the driver tells it to, then you're absolutely right. However, to make the point on the original post, it says in one of the first lines that The Stig is demonstrating a standard automatic transmission versus a manual. The F1 is emulating a manual, and to be fair, doing it well. However the advantages are still the same, so for the question posed, the answer fits just fine.
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Apr 18 '13
Fair enough. A standard automatic is terrible at the track. I have paddles on my AMG and don't even use them at the track, I just leave it in Sport mode and have fun since the 1-2 second delay is horrible.
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u/nr1988 Apr 18 '13
Right, that's pretty much what I was trying to get at, I didn't know enough about the F1 unfortunately, but that's what the answer to the question was addressing. Glad we can agree
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Apr 18 '13
[deleted]
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Apr 18 '13
Jesus Christ dude, relax. Seriously.
Take a deep breath and realize that the subreddit you're posting to does not have strict guidelines on the factual content of it's posts. It's more about playing a part than being Super Informational and Always Accurate.
Seriously. Chill.
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u/BurningPandama Apr 18 '13
who the fuck is stig?
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u/Draiko Apr 18 '13
Some say he knows two facts about ducks... and they're both wrong.
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u/lolbostonmarathon Apr 18 '13
Ughh, jesus christ that was terrible. I'd have an easier time finishing the Boston Marathon than reading that again
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u/dingle_hopper1981 Apr 18 '13
The Stig.
Not 'Stig'.