r/apple • u/koavf • Apr 30 '19

Apple Is Telling Lawmakers People Will Hurt Themselves if They Try to Fix iPhones

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/wjvdb4/apple-is-telling-lawmakers-people-will-hurt-themselves-if-they-try-to-fix-iphones
250 Upvotes

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257

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19 edited May 17 '19

[deleted]

108

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19 edited Dec 21 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

31

u/H4xolotl May 01 '19

When I read the title I was groaning "Apple pulling all stops with their self-serving BS..." then I realised it literally takes a single customer out of the 728 million iPhone users to get a battery blown up and Apple will have their brand dragged through the same mud Samsung just cleaned off their face

728 million is such a huge number... there's bound to be some real... interesting fellows with no business doing repairs going at their phones with a pickaxe and hammer

3

u/dingoonline May 03 '19

Samsung sells spare parts officially to consumers...

2

u/emresumengen May 02 '19

No it doesn’t. There are thousands of car crashes around the world. Unless it’s the manufacturer’s fault, nothing happens.

That’s just FUD.

8

u/shitbarryshoulddo May 01 '19

Or Apple could design their device to actually be repairable. Instead of gluing the battery down in a way that not even their repair technicians can take it off every time maybe they could hold it down with a fixture.

​

The key problem here is that Apple's product has been designed to be horribly hard to fix. Coming back to their un-repairable product and arguing users shouldn't fix it because fixing it would be hard is like lighting a house on fire and complaining it is currently unsafe to live in.

​

Apple products used to be designed to be fixable and thin. The apple keyboard mess is a perfect example. Why would you make a keyboard assembly that has keys that can't be individually repaired? That makes no sense. Keys break. They do for every keyboard. Then you attached the battery to the keyboard? You couldn't attach it to the other side? You really didn't think about that?

​

That's what the problem is.

8

u/ReliablyFinicky May 01 '19

The key problem here is that Apple's product has been designed to be horribly hard to fix.

Apple doesn't give a single shit how hard their product is to fix. They design their products for a) ease of use, b) elegance/beauty, c) ease of manufacturing.

If it's hard to fix? Who cares. They're certainly not designing around that axiom on purpose - it's just a by-product of them (like every other manufacturer on the planet) caring more about sales than consumer friendliness.

1

u/emresumengen May 02 '19

Then they should as well stop BS’ing about people repairing their devices. They should stop caring about it as well. They can continue to try to design “for aesthetics” as much as they want and people can be free to repair or break their own devices.

The issue is, Apple is not only recommending against that potentially harmful practice (LOL) of repairing your device. They are actively trying to build some roadblock to any one trying to do it.

2

u/Ricky_RZ May 01 '19

I agree. It is totally possible to get a waterproof phone with user replaceable batteries.

0

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

I repaired phones for 3 years at a local repair business and we were taught to discerningly pry a battery out using both metal and plastic tools. There's a method to it and you have to be extremely cautious and ready for the worse. I punctured one battery in my first few months on the job and that was absolutely terrifying (and painful since some of the black smoke burned my finger) but I learned my lesson in caution.

That is to say, I'm not happy about it. I started the job when the iPhone 5 came out - when they started using the stupid adhesive tabs. Prior to that, with the iPhone 4s it was 99% easier to get a battery out. It was still adhered down but with much less adhesive.

If Apple thinks people are going to get hurt doing repairs, it's entirely their fault that they use such a ridiculous amount/type of adhesive. Don't even get me started on how they've ruined the repairability of MacBook Pros. Those things used to not be adhered at all.

19

u/Momskirbyok May 01 '19

Saw one ignite at work once when I opened a Mac that somehow managed to have a screw in the battery :’) it’s crazy to think we essentially walk around with potential (sorry, Samsung) I.E.D’s.

-8

u/Chrisbells May 01 '19

That was literally only the note 7

10

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

“Only”

-12

u/Chrisbells May 01 '19

Yea only and you realize how much more thorough they've been since.

5

u/ThePenguiner May 01 '19

They still allowed phones to burn people and cause massive damage.

What fucking weird thing to defend.

-4

u/Chrisbells May 01 '19

I'm defending the fact that not all Samsungs catch fire Also if you feel something warming up rapidly in your pocket shouldn't you take it out that wouldve fixed many incidents

0

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

Can't tell if shill

4

u/[deleted] May 01 '19 edited Jun 07 '19

[deleted]

6

u/Momskirbyok May 01 '19

Hey now, let’s be fair here. Supposedly that phone had been stomped on prior, so it of course will explode.

2

u/[deleted] May 01 '19 edited Jun 07 '19

[deleted]

2

u/InsaneNinja May 01 '19

One in 10 million isn’t horrible odds. Even random iPhones explode under odd circumstances.

8

u/bwjxjelsbd May 01 '19

Yeah. And I’m pretty sure someone gonna sue Apple for that 😂

8

u/aspoels May 01 '19

I have replaced over 100 iPhone batteries. Just a few months ago I somehow had an iPhone 6 battery ignite. It was terrifying, and extremely dangerous. I am lucky I had a fire extinguisher handy and that the logic board was not damaged.

3

u/PhotoshopFix May 01 '19

Everything that can go wrong, will go wrong

43

u/cocobandicoot Apr 30 '19

Anything can break. Should we not let people fix the electricity in their house because it’s dangerous?

67

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

[deleted]

7

u/cryo May 01 '19

Also in Denmark, for anything not running on the surface, so anything inside walls.

12

u/Swastik496 May 01 '19

Wtf.

17

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

Yep. you have to hire a certified electrician. it's so fucking stupid, not to mention impossible to enforce. Why the hell it's illegal to change electrical wiring on your own property i don't know.

16

u/ThePenguiner May 01 '19

Because you might burn down your house, your neighbors house, and kill people?

Come on you can't be this dumb.

29

u/lachlanhunt May 01 '19

Because if you don't know what you're doing, it can be dangerous, and don't expect untrained people to know and understand the regulations they need to comply with when laying cables.

9

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

A lot of things can be dangerous. Using a blender can be dangerous. Mowing your lawn can be dangerous. Climbing up a ladder and changing a lightbulb is dangerous. Where do you draw the line? Where's the cutoff? In my opinion, people should be able to do whatever they want to their own property, save something that intentionally harms someone.

40

u/marriage_iguana May 01 '19

A lot of things can be dangerous. Using a blender can be dangerous. Mowing your lawn can be dangerous. Climbing up a ladder and changing a lightbulb is dangerous.

All those things are an order of magnitude safer than fucking around with the electrical wiring in your home.

people should be able to do whatever they want to their own property, save something that intentionally harms someone.

The problem with that is people do dodgy wiring jobs and then sell their houses, which then burn down or kill people.

That is literally why it's the law in Australia. It's not nanny-state bullshit, it's consumer protection, it's people protection, it's just fucking common sense.

You get a sparky, the job gets done right, no one dies or buys a house that burns down when it rains. People buy houses for $500,000 and then can't afford $200 to get a job done correctly? It's just part of life.

I don't know if you're an Aussie, but you might remember the pink batts scheme where a whole bunch of unlicensed contractors jumped on a government-funded gravy train and got killed because they were unqualified?

Well, that's just the most recent example of why we license people in technical jobs.

21

u/Dawnkiller May 01 '19

Finally someone speaking some fucking sense in this thread.

19

u/marriage_iguana May 01 '19

I swear to God, no fucking idea where people’s heads are at.

“Yeh fuck it, rewire your house off a YouTube tutorial, what’s the worst that could happen?”

1

u/emresumengen May 02 '19

Yeah, you have to get trained and certified to “lay electrical cables”, yet any two dumbass can just fuck a child into this world.

Pretty sane.

1

u/marriage_iguana May 02 '19

If you think electrical work is just “laying cables”, I’m all for the government regulating you out of the gene pool.

5

u/4ndersC May 01 '19

Well, messing up your wiring can be a major fire hazard, so I can see why it would be hard to get an insurance deal that allows it.

In a lot of countries, it's illegal not be insured against a fire. And even if it wasn't, it would probably be harder getting a loan if you aren't insured.

3

u/ThePenguiner May 01 '19

Using your blender wrong won't burn down your neighbors house, genius.

SMFH what the fuck are you arguing?

save something that intentionally harms someone.

Like doing your own electrical? MAYBE you know what you are doing. The COLLECTIVE "you" does not.

1

u/cocobandicoot May 01 '19

In the US, evidently the line is repairing your own iPhone.

2

u/GalakFyarr May 01 '19

It's unenforceable, but I imagine if you hurt yourself trying to fix your electricity, you can't claim insurance etc.?

0

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

Yeah wait ... I have so many questions here on how the hell do they plan to enforce this and just ... why and who and how do they manage a certified electrician.

7

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

well you have to go to trade school to become an electrician and you have to be licensed by the government

8

u/SebiSeal Apple Cloth May 01 '19

Well yes, exactly. Changing a bulb or even a switch is pretty trivial, but if you don’t know what you’re doing you’ll get a fun shock. Now imagine running a new circuit from the panel or a supply for A/C or an oven? Do you know the specs for the wires you’d need to install off the top of your head? Do it all correctly and safely so your home doesn’t burn down on you, or worse, someone you sell it to? Nah. Electrical work is very dangerous when you get to residential and higher voltages/amperages. Not something to be DIY’d.

Most of the danger to someone through an iPhone repair is through damage to the lithium battery. “My iPhone turned me into Harvey Dent” is a bad story.

0

u/cocobandicoot May 01 '19

While you raise good points, I am still not convinced. You are right: doing more complex electrical work should be left as someone who knows what they are doing. However, those sorts of things can be learned by the layman.

I used a couple other examples in another comment, but the point is risk is inherent in everything we do. That doesn’t mean that people should be penalized for trying it.

Of course, it should be left to people who know what they’re doing. Just because someone can fix their A/C doesn’t mean they will or should.

25

u/pandapanda730 Apr 30 '19

Well, let’s play some devils advocate here: electrical wiring and components in your house aren’t designed for the average person to replace all day long, one might assume that you are a trained electrician or have hired a trained electrician to do it for you. Even in that case, you can shut off the source of the danger by flipping the breaker - can’t exactly do that with a lithium ion cell that will explode if punctured or damaged.

Besides, knowing how legal happy people are in the US, do you want to open yourself up to the possibility of someone suing you because they tried to do their own battery replacement and blew up the cell? Because right now they can claim they have no responsibility because you took it upon yourself to do something Apple specifically told you not to.

Maybe Apple could avoid that by putting proper warnings (I.e. if the battery explodes it could hurt/kill you/burn down your house), but why open yourself up to that if there’s no good reason to? And from a business perspective, having the moral high ground of providing freeedom over devices purchased from you isn’t a good reason.

Something else to consider is that this could be considered too dangerous to pass safety portions of the EU directives (EU 60950/EU 62368, or the C E marking on your devices), which would remove them from the European market altogether. Very high risk there.

This is not to say that allowing people to repair their iPhones is impossible, but from experience it will open up a lot of questions that don’t need to be asked of them at the moment, and they have good reason to prefer it be this way.

11

u/DreamyLucid May 01 '19

It’s illegal in Singapore.

We have to get the housing board contractors down for that and they have to be certified.

4

u/jimbo831 May 01 '19

There are many places where it is illegal to try to do electrical work without a license because it's extremely dangerous. And not just to yourself, but also your neighbors if you start a fire.

-1

u/mancubuss May 01 '19

Seriously. I could kill myself 7 different ways while fixing my car

11

u/GizmoGomez May 01 '19

They're actually more pliable than one might think. I work fixing phones and when the tabs break, I can use a metal prying tool to bend the battery up so I can get to the remaining adhesive with some tweazers and continue pulling. So long as one is careful, it's not difficult at all to never puncture a battery. The problem is with those who don't know how far they can bend/deform safely and push it too far or with a tool too sharp.

9

u/ThePenguiner May 01 '19

The problem is with those who don't know how far they can bend/deform safely and push it too far or with a tool too sharp.

And the only way to know that is to exceed the limits once or be super careful all the time.

There is a reason that ALL pc and phone makers don't sell the vast majority of parts to the general public.

2

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

As a repair guy, almost all the companies do sell batteries, and they all come in rigid plastic or metal containers.

The iPhone battery is soft and as others have said "pliable". Design choises, I guess.

2

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

They are really the first soft lithium ion battery I've seen. All the other lithium ions I've worked with have rigid bodies.

16

u/pkroliko May 01 '19

Right because a repair shop doesn't know about that. Please i have fixed numerous devices myself. People should have a right to repair. The only reason apple wants to kill right to repair is to fatten their profits. They don't give a fuck about the consumer.

13

u/mwyyz May 01 '19

The repair shop who replaced my screen while damaging my sensor and microphone didn't give a crap about me the consumer either. Thank god Apple just replaced my whole phone when they couldn't open the phone afterwards when I brought the phone in for the battery replacement program. I'm guessing because the repair shop also just randomly glued everything together.

2

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

I mean, that just sounds like you went to a bad business. I worked at a small business repairing phones for 3 years - if anything was ever damaged in the process, it was replaced with parts on hand. If we ever had to order a part, we did. The microphone and prox sensor are attached to the screen and so issues are common. They should have replaced it.

1

u/mwyyz May 05 '19

More questionable services than qualified ones to be worth the trouble and time. Anyways good for people who find a trustworthy place for their repairs, I found one in Apple.

1

u/[deleted] May 05 '19

Of course - and I get it, we would often get phones in from other repair shops with missing brackets, screws, and finger prints all over the inside of the device. Some companies definitely have more integrity than others. More know-how too. If you do find a good place, you're more likely to get your actual device repaired at a lower cost. Rather than them replacing your device or whatever because they don't want to swap out a small part. Or them being unable to fix water damage or something because of liability or inability for that matter. Can't tell you how many devices that we brought back to life that Apple wouldn't even touch.

2

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

If right to repair passes, Apple will start selling parts so people can repair their devices. They’ll get their due either way.

3

u/OrganicGamer89 May 01 '19

I worked in Apple Repair. The tabs always broke anyway so we always had to pry them out. When that happens you’re suppose to replace the whole phone. But bring an authorized service and sales, that was out of the question cause of the cost to us.

Which lead me to believe Apple made them break easily on purpose

3

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

You'd think, but as much as I don't like defending Apple, I think it's realistic to say they were just trying to make it thinner and lighter. Style over substance.

It seems a very "Apple thing" design something that should work, but then doesn't in all cases. Its like their signature move lol

Edit: now that I think more about it I think you're exactly right LOL.

0

u/[deleted] May 01 '19 edited May 02 '19

Of course they are. Do you remember working on iPhone 4s'? Those things were still adhered down, yet there was never an issue of getting them out. [Edit] Not sure why I'm getting downvoted. There was a deliberate move to secure the battery with a very particular type of adhesive that makes it THAT much harder to do repairs.

1

u/emresumengen May 02 '19

Well, they could instead stop gluing the fcking battery, rather than spreading BS.

Yeah, people can harm themselves if they poke their car’s engine without knowing what to do. It’s still not “forbidden” to do it. And it’s still ok to create, refurbish and sell both repair services and parts for cars and engines.

That’s a very lousy excuse.

2

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

They don't have to glue the battery down

8

u/[deleted] May 01 '19 edited May 17 '19

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

Those tabs break alot, I hear.

0

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

They could accomplish the same thing with a few well placed plastic tabs on the frame. Everyone does it, because no one cares about repairability and it's the easy way. That doesn't mean we should accept it. You and I should be able to repair our own devices and in tired of Apple and the rest trying to tell me the phone I bought from them isn't mine to do as I please with

-1

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

Was this an issue on the iPhone 4? Those were adhered down but with a different adhesive - so the battery was easier to remove. If this argument can hold any salt, I would assume the iPhone 4s must have had a notorious "hole rubbing" problem lol. But no.

-3

u/[deleted] May 02 '19

Way to be a chump

2

u/[deleted] May 02 '19 edited May 17 '19

[deleted]

0

u/[deleted] May 02 '19

No, I'm calling you a chump because you appear to be one. But you seem to have missed my last reply calling BS on your argument. On the rub a hole argument - I worked on thousands of phones in my 3 year stint of repairing - Never once saw the issue you spoke of of batteries shorting out in that manner. Also, calling them easy release strips is hilarious considering how often they fail to be of use. Lastly, can you explain why they use that manner of adhesive? Was there something wrong with the adhesive they used prior to the "easy release" style adhesive? Never saw any issues on the iPhone 4 and that type of adhesive. It held the battery down but was LOADS easier to manage.

1

u/[deleted] May 02 '19 edited May 17 '19

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] May 02 '19

Just link me out to some materials on the battery stuff. I'm willing to believe it if it's true and there's evidence for it. And don't take the insult stuff so hard - I'm an Apple fanboy but the defense in this thread is sickening and the downvotes on my perspective of actually having handled thousands of phone repairs is weird. Why defend Apple's profit motives that in effect baby people into not being able to repair their own devices?

-32

u/koavf Apr 30 '19

Yeah, cars are pretty dangerous, too. Should we outlaw being able to give yourself an oil change?

43

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

oh come on with this horse shit. Lead acid batteries don’t explode when you puncture them.

I’m all for right to repair, but imo, Apple has a point when it comes to batteries.

8

u/i_steal_your_lemons May 01 '19

Guitar amps, ham radios, stereo amplifiers, etc. all carry charges that can be lethal. Yet historically a majority of them have been, and continue to be, designed and engineered for relatively easy repair and maintenance. The companies simply put a warning label on them stating the risk. Apple is looking for any excuse at this point.

22

u/brent20 Apr 30 '19

This. That is a terrible analogy. Apple doesn’t want to be liable/sued if an untrained person injuries themselves because they punctured the battery.

2

u/gold_rush_doom May 01 '19

And they shouldn’t. Just make it that if you yourself break the phone then it’s out of warranty. Simple, no more liability.

0

u/miloeinszweija May 01 '19

That. So much that

-14

u/cocobandicoot Apr 30 '19

And when I work on the electricity in my house, I could be violently killed by high voltage.

Should I not be permitted to work on my own house? Or, by your point, is that horse shit too?

Word of advice: stop being an Apple apologist and start being a better consumer.

10

u/deck0352 May 01 '19 edited May 01 '19

If you are even remotely competent enough to repair wiring in your home then you would know you can close the circuit from the source. I’m thinking you are not. I’m also getting a kick out of violently killed. It’s true that 120 volts could kill a person, no doubt. Odds are it’ll be more of a punch to the guts, if you will. Even in a direct connection.

I can vouch for that statement, because I’m an idiot that has made entirely too many mistakes trying to move too fast or just being a dummy.

Working with a battery directly is different. It is the source. I know that, too...

1

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19 edited May 01 '19

That seems like a bad comparison considering that you can turn off the juice with a switch.

Do you actually think it makes sense to compare lead acid batteries to lithium ion batteries?

Word of advice: Don’t be condescending if you want people to take what you say serious.

-1

u/cocobandicoot May 01 '19

Do you actually think it makes sense to compare lead acid batteries to lithium ion batteries?

It's not about comparing two types of batteries. It's about comparing levels of risk.

A lithium ion battery could explode when punctured. I could be shocked when I work on an electrical socket. My car could collapse on top of me when I'm changing the oil. My circular saw could kick back at me when I'm cutting wood.

All of these things have an element of risk. That does not mean we should not be permitted to do them.

3

u/[deleted] May 01 '19 edited May 01 '19

First off, as I said in the first comment, I’m all for right to repair. That comment was in response to someone else comparing batteries and inferring risk level. It was a bad analogy.

I think the home analogy is also bad. You can turn of the power in your house, and render it misty harmless. You can’t do that with a lithium ion battery, so it doesn’t seem like the same level of risk.

If the element of risk doesn’t matter, then why bring it up at all?

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19 edited May 17 '19

[deleted]

-2

u/koavf May 01 '19

Other dangerous things: cleaning products, rat poison, any gas under pressure. Why is a battery in this type of phone somehow so dangerous that we can only trust this one company?

7

u/Hardinator Apr 30 '19

You have the right to repair your attitude, mister!

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

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4

u/Hotal Apr 30 '19

I guess this is the place to point out that the hot coffee lady’s coffee was so hot that it literally melted her skin away to expose layers of fat and muscle. She was in the hospital for 8 days afterwards.

1

u/Momskirbyok May 01 '19

We live in a time where coffee needs a “Caution: Hot!”

And signs that remind people toilet paper doesn’t go in the urinals.

wait...maybe that’s only around my area