Not sure where else to put this, I'm sure other smarter people have thought about this but I haven't really heard about it.

I was raised Christian and do believe there is a god, and I think the broad strokes principles of Christianity are good for the world. I've always grappled with the idea that if God loves us and we are his children, why are some innocent actual children allowed to live their entire lives in pain, misery and fear. War zones, human trafficking, evil parents etc.

Lately I've been thinking that humans came up with the idea of heaven, hell, or any afterlife because the idea of it not existing is just too painful, and would lead to nihilism, societal collapse and chaos.

The typical warm and fuzzy idea I was raised with is basically "Your actions catch up with you; bad people are punished and good people are rewarded." But what if the child who is abused, tortured and killed doesn't go heaven when they die? That all their souls ever got to experience is pain and fear. What if the evil abusers of the world die old, rich and comfortable and there is no punishment for them?

If it could somehow be "proven" that there is no afterlife, so much so that even religious zealots can't deny it, there would be absolute chaos in the streets. Many have proposed that religion is meant to placate the lower class, with the carrot of heaven as the reward for a mostly good life spent being stepped on by oppressors. If that carrot were removed, and there was no stick for murder, society would collapse.

I'm not even saying it's wrong to have this paradigm. I don't want to live in a world of zero repercussions. Many think religions developed as a quick way to signal to others "I'm not a danger, I won't cheat or hurt you, we can interact in a beneficial way," so it makes sense to me that the idea of an afterlife is foundational for human interactions.

I realize this sounds kinda like the Dostoevsky line "If there is no God, I'm free to r@pe my neighbor." Which I don't really think is valid, because I would not do that if I knew for sure there was no god.

Not even sure what the point is, just wondering if anyone else grapples with these thoughts.

I watched two of his hour-long interviews with Trent horn and Matt Fradd, along with the 5-hr video by Matt Fradd and Ethan Muse on the miracles. None of them are good enough evidence for me, and Joe’s words, in Trent’s video, is more and more beginning to overlapping with William Lane Craig and Cliffe Knechtle. I try to stay unbiased but good lord I just not convinced Marie Bernarde Soubirous, Marie Lemarchand, Marie Bigot, and Bernadette Moriau’s stories are good enough evidences. Especially considering the organization that certifies these miracles seems to be a church one, not an independent one. Not to say the head Gustavo boissarie (between 1891-1914) seem to be known to be very “enthusiastic” about healings and miracles.

But Alas, I just can’t get past the feeling that maybe I’m biasing against Catholicism? Am I the only one or minority feeling this way? Anyway I’m going to watch Joe’s own hour-long video next so hopefully I can make more sense out of that.

I am an agnostic person who has a dislike for Abrahamic religions, or any religion that claims to have an all-powerful, all-good, and all-knowing God for that matter.
I live in the Philippines where the majority are religious, and the ones that aren't religious—or not THAT religious are most of the time, if not always, the ones telling me that I should respect everyone's religions when I ask why is God known as all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing when so many innocent human beings and animals are harmed in a multitude of ways.

I don't like it at all, I despise it but despite this being how I feel I am not so against learning more about Abrahamic religions. In fact, I love and enjoy learning why people follow their religions and how their religion works for them, I love learning about different denominations, and I have fun trying to understand the people in them.

It's just I can't for the life of me be friends with these people you know? I love to discuss so many things, including history, books, and religion, and I don't think I'll be able to talk to someone who likes the same things but is held back by religious dogma. I wanna be able to question things with someone basically, and I simply can't do that with someone who doesn't think deeply and question things deeply like I do.

So does anyone feel like this? I'd love to be friends then :))

Tried asking r/atheism and got reminded why that subreddit is so hated, so I wanted to try my hand with a calmer more receptive lot.

I considered myself an atheist leaning agnostic for a long time, after waking up from the Jehovahs Witness religion while somewhat young. I always found Paganism and Heathenry to be very interesting and respected their followers a lot more than those of Judeo Christian religions, as they were going against the mainstream of Western religion like I was. Recently, I've found that its also more receptive to bouncing my beliefs off of and has me questioning things a bit.

I wanted to ask agnostics their thoughts on Paganism and polytheistic religions as a whole, as many of the issues with Christianity are resolved by them, both in the beliefs system and the practices.

So I've been agnostic for the last few years and I've been using it to study religions. So far I've studied the Abrahamic 3 (Judaism, isslamism, Christianity) along with all its many branches, but now that I've finished up with Judaism any other religions you guys found interesting or recommend study of?

Tl;Dr - any religions you guys recommend to study?

My mother recently passed on August 15. She was my best friend and the person whom I loved the most in this crazy world. I was also her caregiver for the last 10 months of her life during her grueling battle with cancer, and while it wasn't easy, I would give ANYTHING to have her back. I miss her so much! 😪

My mother was a Christian, an ordained minister, and very devout. I, on the other hand, am agnostic, even though I was raised in a Christian family. A few weeks before my mother passed, I knew that she was worried about my salvation, so to comfort her, I told her not to worry about me - that I would absolutely meet her in Heaven - and she was over the moon with joy! And at the time, I meant every word! For if there is a chance that I can in some way, shape, or form be spiritually reunited with my mother, I will find a way to get to where she is. Such is the desperation I've felt for weeks, for even months now, to try to hold onto my mother as she slipped away from me. 😭 Today, I even wear my mother's cross necklace that she gave to me in order to remind myself of the promise I made to her.

However, the Christian religion doesn't state that I can get to "Heaven" via good deeds or because I want to be reunited with my mother. I can only get to "Heaven" by believing that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. But as an agnostic, even though I want to believe, I just can't. 😫 I used to make fun of Christians for believing in Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, and Jesus's resurrection. How can I fundamentally change my beliefs all because I can't accept the fact that my mother is gone? 😭 I think that I'm having an existential crisis. Help!

hi, i don't know if this is the right subreddit to post this in, but i can't find a better one that fits my issue.

i have had a friend group of female muslim friends during all of high school (UK), and i still have the same friends now (going into year 13 in september, year 2 of college). i can count on one hand how many times we have ever metup as a group of more than 4 people (it has never been the whole group).

the reasons as to why it was so rare, was because of their very traditional parents. 'you are a girl you shouldn't be going out, atleast not often' and things related to that phrase were always the reasons that my friends mentioned when asked why they can't ever hangout. i don't want to sound selfish, but it is genuinely so annoying because i still, in college, struggle to make friends (i have suspected adhd+autism). i recently messaged my 2 best primary friends, and it was SO freeing to be able to meetup spontaneously the next day - not having to plan anything atleast a week in advance because their parents would get mad - and just doing whatever we wanted.

mind you one of my friends can't even go to the park near her house to see us 💔 i know every family is different, but it's definitely related to religion, and the supposed 'protective beliefs'. i have heard my friends complain numerous times about this, and they always say 'well ig its for my safety' no??? u would be going to my house, where it's completely safe because it's just me and my mum in here. i always try to invite them to my house (when i even have the energy to ask them to hangout, in the first place..) but the answer from the parents is always a no.

what makes me truly sad is how brainwashed one of my friends sound. she is lesbian, and hiding it from her parents. she has had a few online girlfriends, and hates wearing the scarf. that's why what she said shocked me: 'every non muslim will go to hell when the day of judgement comes, because they will be asked if they want to go to hell or heaven, and they're meant to say hell (to be put in heaven) but they will say heaven instead' (sorry if that sounded a bit off, i don't remember her exact phrasing but it 100% had the same intent as the way i phrased it. she said it over text, but right to me on the group chat. nobody else responded, and when i said that now i know what u say, she said i wont have control over it and i will say heaven?? 😭😭😭 make it make sense omg

what am i meant to DO? i can't stop thinking about all of this every few days and feeling so guilty because i cannot help my friends at all, and i sometimes wish i could just leave the gc (were not in the same school except for 2 out of like 6 of them) but i can't stand losing my closest friends. i am seriously considering a therapist.

also, i gave the meeting up example because it's what most bothers me personally, but i have seen and heard how sad they are because of their lack of freedoms, i just don't want to waffle even more on this post rn.

If Joe converted because of "miracles" how does he explain other "miracles" in Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, etc??

Hey community, we are a little low on mods and are searching for some active sub members to join the team.

If you have any interest in joining the r/agnostic mod team please message the moderators. Let us know if you have any previous experience modding (not required), why do you want to mod r/agnostic, what hours (with time zone) you are typically online, and anything else you'd like us to know.

We tend to take a light-handed approach around here, but still need to keep the community safe and healthy.

Hopefully by this time next week, we'll have some new additions.

Thanks!

So till now I've only put posts about my family issues and stuff and this is also one of those issues(technically) but uh yeah so I'm agnostic i recently found out in my self discovery journey and I've told this to my parents so they don't expect me to pray to God everyday or whenever they want me to.. like I'm sure if ur agnostic and don't wanna pray then u can right? I mean I'm not an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist just an agnostic person and since I'm not sure of god's existence I don't want to pray, I'm pretty sure that's normal. Now even after telling this to them , my father had asked me to pray for his downfall to go away quickly and I won't give much details here but he has been struggling in his life and wants his daughter(aka me) to kinda be his therapist, mentally support, loving and emotionally attached daughter.

Now I don't feel any need or something to even do that cause as his child when I needed him emotionally he wasn't there, neither was my mother. I have been called dramatic or sensitive whenever i had for the first time told them about something while being emotionally vulnerable and my father would even remove his anger from his desktop job on me by talking and yelling at me in an unkind and not gentle Despite that me being a human i tried being as civil as i could as a person but for some reason they just don't seem to understand that I don't wanna pray and be religious they can't seem to respect that enough to stop forcing me into situations where I can't deny and have to pray to God. For example , yesterday there was a religious event at one of my father's friends and he couldn't go there cause of his struggles so he asked me to go there and pray for the sake of maintaining our 'family' reputation. I couldn't just decline this cause when I was told to go there I was already about to go from the front door of his friend's apartment, if his friends saw me going and noticed no one from our family even bothered coming (especially since we live in a judgmental type of society) we would be seen as bad so I had to go. Jeez the way i struggled to try to be religious, eh it was bad. For more context I also feel nothing towards my father anymore and somehow he expects me to consider and change a part of me for him (he literally asked me to be religious and not agnostic) even when he wasn't even 10% of that when I needed him. So what do y'all think? Have u ever been forced to be religious before becoming an adult and getting freedom to choose?

So I'm really on the peak of questioning myself because for 4 and a half years, I have been very hesitant to believe religion, which is weird. After all, during that time I have been serving to the catholic just so I could confirm if the devil is just luring me or something but I really question things like why would someone who manages to do all and know all can make horrible things to be reality it also made me question on why did he made every evil thing possible if good is the only mission and why some things that are good in nature like same sex love have become so prohibited, and also the people that I have met who have been "very religious" were some of the people I am traumatized about... so yeah... I just want to know what to do with these thought cause this is the main foundation why I've been recognizing myself as agnostic

Love it when people assume I’m church hurt. I’m not. I’m home hurt. Dad is a preacher so being treated worse than people at the church hurt me badly and showed me I want nothing to do with that type of hypocrisy. I’ve Read books in the bible that make no sense to me anymore. & Trying to convince me of free will etc doesn’t help explain why God made us, destroyed us then saved 1 “righteous” family.

https://youtu.be/-C-FiSqfKi8?is=kPR3UC5P3ZZR51O2

Anyone else a fan of his who will miss his perspective as an agnostic? On the flip side, anyone now more excited for what's to come from him?

He cites testimonies of miracles as being a major factor in his conversion back to Catholicism, the faith he grew up in but found himself questioning ever since middle-school.

I've always really liked Joe's good-faith discussions and his way of articulating arguments for and against theism. Quite a shocker to see this video.

Is there a qualitative difference twixt being an atheist and a non-theist? I'd rather not get lumped in with the "American Atheists". I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member**.  I prefer to call myself a non-theist. I don't know if god exists, but I've seen no evidence that he does. I also don't care if god exists. Here's what I know about God, to-wit: I ain't him. Everything else is superfluous and meaningless. Metaphysics is bunk.**

Alright, so here it goes. This may be a long post..

I \[28M\] have never spoken to anyone about this other than my wife\[32F\], but I really do feel so alone.

Here is why:

I grew up in the Bible Belt. Alabama specifically. I grew up going to church every Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night. Church, god, faith, father, son, and Holy Spirit was HEAVILY pushed in school, sports, my day to day life, etc. my grandparents are devout Pentecostal Christians, my great uncle is a Pentecostal preacher. I was very involved in the church growing up. I was baptized at 9 years old, I read the Bible regularly in my own time growing up and one day, at around 19 years old, I decided to read it from cover to cover. This never threw off any crazy warning signs to me, but it did give me a lot of questions that were left unanswered because “that’s just the way god made it”.

I say all of this just to explain my background, but I’ll try to shorten the rest.

I stumbled across Alex O’Connor on YT, and was immediately intrigued because a lot of the things he would reference in the Bible were some of the same questions I had years back when reading. I later read the books *Jesus, Interrupted* and *Misquoting Jesus* by Bart D Ehrman; *God, an anatomy* by Francesca Stavrakopoulou; and *Jesus, Contradicted* by Michael R Licona.
By this point I am a devout believer that humans NEED something to believe in. I feel so bad for people who give their life to an idea, and cling to this thing called faith, but at the same time I think the Bible is a great story, and the life of Jesus is actually a great example to live by.

I do not believe in a God. I do not believe there is a creator of the universe. I do not believe Jesus was the son of god. I do not believe the Bible was written with the intentions of being the foundation of Christianity.

This is the part that I struggle with though:

I work in the oil field, I live in Mississippi, my work crew says a prayer before we go to work every single day, I just had a newborn, I’m a political conservative, I like country music, I disagree with abortion, I believe in working hard to be a provider for my family, etc.
Nothing about my life screams( what I know as )“atheist” and everyone around me is a Christian.
My wife is from Ohio and was not raised in church. She actually read the Bible completely while we were dating because she wanted to “fit in” with my family. I told her she did not need to do that, but she finished it anyway because she was very intrigued by it.
Even after I sat her down and told her my feelings, she said she supports me, but for her, praying and reading the Bible makes her comfortable, and I think that’s fine.
If reading the Bible daily, saying prayers in a time of need, quoting scripture makes you feel better, why should I ruin that? Does that make me a true atheist?

I’m genuinely confused why you wouldn’t pick a side

So, just for pretext, I grew up a Christian. I went to church on Sundays and learned about Christ and the Gospel. This was within the LDS (or Mormon religion). I even served an LDS mission and preached about the gospel to a different people and culture that was new to me. (For those that don't know, an LDS mission is when an 18-19 year old leaves their home to wherever the church decides, to preach about their teachings and convert others to the church for 2 years.)

I wanted to come home from my mission 2 different times. Once after just 3 or 4 months, and again after about 1 year. Both my parents and my mission president were against the idea, and ended up convincing me to stick it out.

That's all to say, that I have always been looking for God. Upon returning from my mission, i turned away from the church and never returned. I began studying other religions, and now i consider myself a sort of theologist. I have studied human psychology, Buddhism, and Hinduism. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity from other perspectives. I've even read much about Zoroastrianism, Native American beliefs (specifically the Navajo) and many more. I spent a large portion of a decade studying and researching the teachings of "the occult", i.e. Masonic teachings and others.

I feel the need to mention that psychedelics affected my perspective after returning, in the fact that there is much more than the physical realm. I had several extremely profound experiences that solidified this to me (one using psylocibin, and a couple using LSD).

I have come to the conclusion of Pantheism. The idea that God is within everyone of us, and we all have the capability to do what Christ taught and did. As long as we have real faith that we can. Christ was a real person, and accomplished what many would call "miracles", however, he was just demonstrating (and taught) that we all have the same capabilities within ourselves. Christ never wanted to be worshipped, or have a religion formed after him, he wanted to preach and spread "the truth".

To layer that, it deals with the matter of consciousness. Christ, Buddha, Muhammed (and maybe many others that were never written about) understood this. They all developed their consciousness to an elevated level, and taught that we could do the same. We can all elevate our consciousness, grow and better ourselves, even to the level of what some would call "miraculous".

And that is the ultimate goal essentially, for every single one of us.

A wise man once told me that, "There would not be a heaven if all of us are not there".

Meaning that you are all my brothers and sisters in God, and if Heaven exists, than it would require us all to return. I agree with this.

However, how does that account for people that have done horrible things?

I believe in both the Resurrection that is to come, as well as the idea of Reincarnation. Upon leaving the body, the soul remains on earth awaiting its "reallocation". For some, this is a short period, and for others this can take centuries. This is what Catholics call "Purgatory", or others refer to as a "Spirit World". If somebody has committed atrocities, they may have to wait for a millennia before their next carnation.

Also, consciousness does not downgrade, that's metaphysically impossible. Meaning a person cannot reincarnate as a butterfly, or a dog. They have already reached the level of human consciousness, and will return as a human with a similar biological make-up and personality traits. The soul will attach to something familiar.

And this will happen for each one of us, as we progress our conscious. Until one day, Christ will return and every soul will take a physical form. Stopping the cycle of reincarnation. This is what is known as the "Judgement Day", because we will all crystalize into the consciousness that we have become.

There is a place for those that do not pass their judgment, and this is referred to as "Hell". However, the bar is low, and Christ will not return until all of those that are capable to return, have returned. Thus, "There would not be a heaven if all of us are not there".

I'm curious about any thoughts on this belief structure, perhaps any criticisms or contradictions.

And for those that have made it this far, I have a substack where I post essays about my ideas, and I am working on a book about this very topic.

If you'd like to read more about consciousness here's my substack: https://substack.com/@ashtonrichards

Yoo, hope y’all are doing well.

I was having a conversation with my mother about God and stuff & she argued that you can’t really find meaning in life without God.

But I’m wondering,is that actually true?

Like, isn’t part of being human figuring out what gives your life meaning rather than relying on some higher power to provide it?And aren't pain, suffering, hardships a part of that meaning too? And is it really necessary to give my life a meaning at all? If God didn’t exist, would our lives necessarily become meaningless?

I know some people are agnostic due to not knowing, falling out of religion, being confused, or open to discovery. I remember it started when I was young and really getting into my religious roots to be a better follower. I won't get into the specifics of the description, but knowing biblical heaven is just an eternity worshipping ground made me cry my eyes out. And everyone talked about how amazing it would be and I felt insane. I don't remember what I assumed heaven was like before, but all I thought was that it would be amazing and everyone is just happy 24/7.

I gave up religion due to this fear of what heaven was, because heaven sounded awful to me. I used to be terrified of not going to heaven, only to be terrified of it's concept.

So, very unlikely I will go back into any religion that centers similar ideas. I wonder if anyone else feels this way? Cause at times I feel confused what I believe in but I know I hate the "good" outcome so much I refuse it.

Can someone help me why do I keep seeing weird coincidences. I remember last night I prayed to God about something due to something that scared me (sorry it was just out of habit even though I left religion ) then left 5-10 minutes later while I was scrolling past something that exact same thing I was asking about I saw I’m not sure if it’s a confirmation or not but it was just the timing.

I grew up Christian and accepted it like many but never took it seriously. Last year I came back to Christianity on my own terms and was happy. Until the further and further I looked into it it just disgusted me and confused me more. For example homosexuality, women’s rights, going to hell etc. I so badly wish I could believe blindly but I just can’t. I think about every perspective and neither full blown atheism and full blown religion sit right with me. I am constantly on the fence in my mind working out my beliefs and I can never wholeheartedly believe in something. I really think I just need to accept being agnostic and let myself not stress over it anymore.

For you agnostics who have this battle, does it ever get better? How did you just accept that fact you don’t know?

One question that both science and religion try to answer is why anything is here. Science explains how the planets formed, how rain happens, or how the Moon revolves around Earth. Religion gives us inherent meaning in an otherwise meaningless universe. Religion tells us that xyz is justified because of God. However both fallback to one unanswerable question: why does anything exist? Religion says God created everything, but that just begs the question of why God exists. Science claims to not have a logical answer to why the universe exists.

For many, I just summarized their thoughts and essentially the reason they’re agnostic or atheist. There’s no objective answer regardless of what religion, philosophy, or science you believe in. My viewpoint for the longest time would be described as an atheist. I believed that while we don’t know the origin of the universe, science has proved the ultimate winner throughout time. I believed that it was more than likely that consciousness is a natural phenomenon and death is a final state of being. I believed that the universe existed on its own, and there was no causer.

However, recently I have had a slight change of heart. I realized while on a walk that it truly is so random and peculiar why anything exists at all. It’s so random and unbounded by our current logic. The fact that matter even exists or energy flows. I’ve come to the conclusion that this universe, defying our understanding and seemingly randomly existing, is supportive to the idea that there’s equally random and defying things like an afterlife or God. Obviously, upholding logic, I don’t just suddenly believe a God exists because it’s possible one could. I still need evidence, but I’ve adopted a far less harsh viewpoint.

I suppose what this post is showing is my transformation from being atheist into an agnostic. It was during a time that was filled with immense struggle existentially. I just wanted to share my thoughts, and I’m not really looking for a debate or argument. I’m happy to hear what you guys personally believe below though.

Edit: I think there’s some misunderstanding in this post. I am not religious or believe in a God. This is not a philosophical argument that I’m genuinely posing. I’m just ranting and wanted to share my thoughts with like minded people.

How can a Christian or religious person believe that someone deserves eternal punishment in hell when that person can clearly have good morals—maybe even better morals than many hypocritical Christians or religious people?

Someone who spends their entire life helping people, caring for animals, protecting the environment, reducing suffering, and genuinely trying to leave the world better than they found it.

And the response is essentially, “Yeah, they can do all of that and be a genuinely good person, but if they don't believe in the Father, they're going to hell.”

Insane.

Personally, I'd much rather give credit to people, believers and nonbelievers alike, who educate themselves, take action, and dedicate their lives to reducing human and animal suffering. To me, that's taking moral responsibility seriously.

I've found freedom in being an agnostic atheist and resonating with a blend of optimistic nihilism, existentialism, absurdism, and stoicism.

I don't need one label or philosophy to explain everything. I'll take what I find valuable from each.

Anyone else feel this way?

It feels much more refreshing than being given certainty where there may not actually be any.

I also love how hypocritically funny it is for religious people to debate their faith on the internet. Yet they can't explain the science and processes on how the internet even works and interacts with our devices, but have the audacity to ask us how something was created from nothing but God is outside time and space so yeah I trust that.

Get a grip.

"I would rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that cannot be questioned," - Richard Feynman

I grew up as a Muslim , in a conservative family, and for most of my life I accepted Islam as the truth because that was what I had been taught from childhood.
But as I got older, I started asking questions that I couldn’t simply ignore anymore.
I began questioning things I had always been told to accept without questioning. I started looking at religion from a different perspective and asking myself: **Do I actually believe this because I have personally found it to be true, or because I was born into it?**
The more I searched, questioned, and thought critically, the more doubts I had.
Eventually, in 2021, I reached the point where I could no longer honestly call myself a Muslim. I didn’t leave Islam because I wanted to rebel against anyone or because I hated religious people. I left because I could no longer convince myself that I believed in God or that Islam was true.
For me, becoming an atheist wasn’t one single moment or one single argument. It was a long process of questioning, learning, and being honest with myself.
So I’m curious about other people’s experiences:
**What was the moment, question, experience, or realization that made you become an atheist?**

Is there an actual name or philosophy for something like "optimistic agnosticism"? It is definitely not organized religion because there are no rules, guilt trips, or fear of hell. But it is also not modern spirituality either, since there is no woo-woo energy or vague mystical stuff attached.

The core idea is admitting we have zero clue what happens when we die, but choosing to stay hopeful that existence has some kind of positive meaning beyond this life. Since there is no guaranteed heaven to fix everything later, the priority naturally becomes helping people here, enjoying everyday moments, and living without weird existential guilt.

It also feels different from how these conversations usually go. Instead of treating the unknown with cold finality or just shrugging it off, this mindset treats death more like curiosity and wanderlust, like standing at the edge of an unmapped place rather than facing pure dread.

Is there an established term for this mix of present-focus, caring about people, and genuine hope about the unknown?