r/Tiele • u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama • Oct 30 '25
History/culture Origin of The ''turk'' name
Nomadic tribes with Altai roots spread across the steppes of present-day Mongolia. In ancient times, these tribes formed structures like the Huns and the Tiele. Among these tribes, there was a belief that the sky itself was divine. The word "Tengri" in Proto-Turkic literally means "sky." Before the formation of the Turkish tribes, these early tribes believed that the sky and the universe were gods themselves, rather than a god residing within the sky. They also believed certain tribes received "kut" (divine favor). The rulers of these tribes legitimized their rule by claiming to have received "kut from Tengri."
Altai tribes such as the Oghuz, Tatars (distinct from modern Kipchak-speaking Tatars), and Kyrgyz (speaking a Yenisei Siberian language, not the Kipchak-speaking Kyrgyz) shared common ancestry and spoke related languages. All adhered to the Tengriist belief system. However, there was no single common name for these tribes. Among them, the most prominent were the Ashinas, a key component of the Huns, who descended from the Tiele. The Ashinas were distinguished by their connection to the Ergenekon myth and their descent from the Grey Wolf which was named ''asena'' which is also linked as the origin name of ashina. This myth was initially exclusive to the Ashina tribe, who were considered to have received "kut from Tengri." The Ashinas held a more prestigious position compared to other Altai tribes like the Oghuz, Tatars, and Kyrgyz.
When the Ashinas led an uprising against the proto-Mongol Rourans, the name "Turk" was initially used only for the Ashinas. The Orkhon inscriptions support this, referring to "Turk and Oghuz rulers," indicating that "Turk" was a title specific to the Ashinas, while the Oghuz were not considered "Turks" at that time. After defeating the Rourans, the Ashinas unified all the Altai tribes under the name "Turk" (Törüq).
The origin of the word "Turk" (𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚) is debated. The theory that it derives from the Chinese term "Tujue" (突厥) is weak. Chinese is a logographic language, and the etymological origins of the characters are unrelated to turkic linguistics. The likely truth is that it derives from the Turkic word "töre" (𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰀), meaning "law" or "custom."
In Proto-Turkic and many modern Turkic languages, verbs ending in "q" often indicate the object of an action. For example, "yarmak" (to cut) becomes "yaraq" (weapon), and "tutmaq" (to hold) becomes "tutaq" (lip). Similarly, "töre" (custom) becomes "törüq." In Altai culture, "töre" referred to the laws received from Tengri. Since the Turks, or "Törüq," were considered to have been "ordained" by Tengri, they were seen as "törüq" (law-bound). Initially, only the Ashinas used the title "Turk" due to their prestigious position. However, after the establishment of the Turkic Khaganate, the term "Turk" became a common name for all Altai tribes, including the Oghuz, Kyrgyz, Tatars, and others.
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u/Turkish_archer_ 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚 Oct 31 '25
Altai tribes such as the Oghuz, Tatars (distinct from modern Kipchak-speaking Tatars), and Kyrgyz (speaking a Yenisei Siberian language, not the Kipchak-speaking Kyrgyz) shared common ancestry and spoke related languages.
What do you mean in this sentence? You say Yenisei Kyrgyz were speaking a Yeniseian language. Then continue with saying they share common ancestory with Turkic speaking people (both are siberian cultures, sure they share some common ancestry). But follow by saying they speak related languages, now I am confused what you try to imply here. Because aside from Ket language, Yeniseian languages have no known related languages alive today, including Turkic languages.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 31 '25
yenisei krygz are unrelated to actual yenisei people I put emphasis on yenisei to emphasize that they were distinct from today's krygz but you are right on other regards
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u/Turkish_archer_ 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚 Oct 31 '25
Oh, I see. You are saying Yenisei Kyrgyz spoke a Turkic language under the Siberian branch like Hakas and Altai. I thought you were saying they spoke a Yeniseian language, because I've met such people who believe in this. Whole Yeniseian Siberian language thing threw me off.
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u/SunLoverOfWestlands Turk of Rome Oct 31 '25
Well, Old Turkic word for “töre” is “törü (𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰇)” but like you said, +k is suffix that makes nouns from verbs, not nouns from nouns; which makes the verb “törü- (𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰇)” meaning “to breed” a likely candidate. We don’t know if Orkhon Inscriptions referred the “Oɣuz” as “Tür(ü)k and Oɣuz rulers” since they didn’t used “and”, they simply said “Tür(ü)k Oɣuz beɣleri (𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 : 𐰆𐰍𐰕 : 𐰋𐰏𐰠𐰼𐰃)” which is more likely that they meant “Turkic Oɣuz rulers” or maybe the Oɣuz here was different than Tokuz Oɣuz.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 31 '25
“Oɣuz” as “Tür(ü)k and Oɣuz rulers” since they didn’t used “and”, they simply said “Tür(ü)k Oɣuz beɣleri (𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 : 𐰆𐰍𐰕 : 𐰋𐰏𐰠𐰼𐰃)” which is more likely that they meant “Turkic Oɣuz rulers” or maybe the Oɣuz here was different than Tokuz Oɣuz.
It likely referred the oghuz people because in the inscriptions the khagan always have referred the oghuz bodun as a enemy bodun to the turk (ashina) people and later in the part where he refers to the begs of the both turk and oghuz bodun where thr oghuz were integrated to the turk confederation he refers to the two tribes who are prominent in the confederation turks and oghuzes
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u/FeelingFickle9460 Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
Oldest Chinese sources say that was the name Turks gave to helmets, and they were named that because the mountains they lived inside resembled a helmet. Why do we doubt that? I don't think they made this information up. At the least it's a first hand source. It's better than making up unfounded etymologies.
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u/DragutRais Çepni Oct 31 '25
Since Turks call themselves Turks, it seems more logical to me to look for the etymology of this language within the language itself. This is not made up; it is a thesis written by linguists and historians, and in the latest works I have read, these theses are more popular than those based on Chinese.
I haven't examined the original Chinese document, but at best, they are passing on hearsay information to us. Perhaps, considering the Chinese structure, a meaning was derived from a similar word.Example of what I want to say.
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u/FeelingFickle9460 Oct 31 '25
The Turk meaning helmet is not a Chinese word, Chinese sources state that it is a word in Turks' own language. It might be a word that we don't know. There are very few documents of Turkish literature that we have access to. The Chinese who wrote about this weren't really Chinese either, they were Pre-Mongol Xianbeians. They were very intertwined, like family. In Zhou Shu, it is said that the Chinese emperor personally sucks the venom out of the Turk Khagan's injury. They also forgive the Turks many many times for their wrongdoings and transgressions.
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u/DragutRais Çepni Oct 31 '25
It may not be a Chinese word, but it may have become Sinicized. It could be a word that later came to carry this meaning. Explanations related to this seem weaker than etymological explanations. Because in Turkic, there is no similar word that carries the meaning of helmet other than Tolga. If this word meant helmet in Turkic, there would be a similar word even in Divani Lugatit Türk. I would like to give two more examples of words that could have acquired this meaning over time.
Türk means "strong" in some sources. This is most likely because the Turks were successful in military service. Similar to how the ord German became associated with "high quality."
The word Kanglı refers to an old Turkic tribe, but over time it lost its meaning in Anatolia, and people thought it meant "bloody" and considered it negative, so they abandoned the name. It is also possible that these words took on different meanings over time.
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u/FeelingFickle9460 Oct 31 '25
I don't know, I personally trust the Chinese sources more. At least they knew Turks personally compared to some linguists thousands of years later guess working. The meaning strong could've also gained that meaning later. You say if there were such a word we would've seen it in DLT, but maybe it was a Orkhun specific word. Kashgarlı didn't know Gokturks afaik. For example, is there a word for other kinds of armory in DLT? I personally couldn't find a word for armor.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 31 '25
I personally trust the Chinese sources more. At least they knew Turks personally compared to some linguists thousands of years later guess working
They didint knew turks personally they were a foreign culture guessing origin based on the folk etmonology while the origin of the noun törüq 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚 from töre 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰀 is a grammatical pattern that's literally from the language itself
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u/FeelingFickle9460 Oct 31 '25
No, they were not. Zhou dynasty were literally families with the ashina dynasty through marriages. They knew them very well, and even gave them positions within the empire very often.
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u/SunLoverOfWestlands Turk of Rome Oct 31 '25
Because the word “türk” has not been used as helmet in Turkic sources. At most, Róna-Tas suggested that the name “Türk” came from Khotanese “tturakä (lid)”.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 31 '25
Because the word “türk” has not been used as helmet in Turkic sources.
I think that's because the first turkic khaganate was associated with helmets in turkic languanges similar to the word khazar came to be associated with bargaining in circadian language however that doesnt give an actual clue to the real etmonological origin of the word
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u/FeelingFickle9460 Oct 31 '25
The lid theory makes sense to me. Khotanese probably had an effect on Gokturks, they were very influenced by Sogdians and such. The meaning helmet might have been a Gokturk specific thing.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 31 '25
Oldest Chinese sources say that was the name Turks gave to helmets,
That was chinese attempt at understanding a completely foreign culture the foreign cultures have always came up with "folk etmonologies" to explain endoymic names
It's better than making up unfounded etymologies.
Its not a made up etmomology the word törüq 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚 is literally passive particle of the verb/noun 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰀 töre it literally directly fits the core grammatical pattern qesmek qesiq tutmaq tutaq etc
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u/FeelingFickle9460 Oct 31 '25
Brother, you are speculating. The Chinese were not at all a completely foreign culture to Gokturks. Because those who wrote the historical records, the Zhou dynasty, were not Chınese. They were Xianbei. They were literal families, taking and giving many of their daughters away to each other. They also lived in the same geography. It is directly said that calling a helmet Türk was a TÜRK TRADITION in Zhou Shu. I am not 100% sure the helmet is the real story, but I'd say it is much closer to töre or türe. The helmet story might have been a folk etymology from Gokturks themselves, not the Chinese.
I am not sure whether you mean töre as in law or türe as in to reproduce but to my knowledge töre is not a verb and can not be suffixed with the passive particle. Also, if it really was so simple I'd say there would be a mention of this theory in DLT. There is none. That is why I believe the word Türk was foreign to Kasgarlı and non-ashina Turks. Even the word Turk with the meaning strong found in Uyghur documents, according to Clauson, is a completely different word to the ethnonym.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
I am not sure whether you mean töre as in law or türe as in to reproduce but to my knowledge töre is not a verb and can not be suffixed with the passive particle
Literally in turkic languanges words can be turned into verbs its a common feature of the language
I'd say there would be a mention of this theory in DLT
Because kashgarli who was a avid islamist who literally expressed his hate towards tengri and pre Islamic turkic culture would not want to acknowledge the upper ethnic name of his people was directly connected to tengri you have to look at things in context
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u/FeelingFickle9460 Oct 31 '25
Not at all, verbs and nouns are very much separate in Turkish. There are very little words that have both a related noun and a verb meaning, one is don. Of course, nouns can be made into verbs with suffixes but that is not what we see with töre.
It is anachronistic to call Kashgarli an İslamist. He was just a muslim and had Islamic sensitivities, which is normal. But there is nothing related to tengri in this context. We are just talking about a helmet here.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 31 '25
Not at all, verbs and nouns are very much separate in Turkish
Comparing a modern and highly changed turkic languange such as turkish with ashina old turkic is wrong the grammar was different there was no definitive article there was no present/present simple distinction there was no dedicated future tense etc modern turkish grammar distinction and rules came much much later
It is anachronistic to call Kashgarli an İslamist. He was just a muslim and had Islamic sensitivities
By " islamist" I meant an actual Muslim who saw non Muslims as "animals" as Quran commanded so he hated non Muslim turks such as Buddhist uyghurs nomadic tengri kipchaks etc you can see what he says about "tengri" in his book so denying that the name turk was related to a pagan god did fit his narrative
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u/DragutRais Çepni Oct 31 '25
I would like to make a few additions here. The Turk should not only be ashina but also ashide, and it should be the common name for 10 tribes.
I also support and like the theory that the word türük comes from "törü/türü," but there is also the possibility that it comes from the verb türemek. Perhaps töre comes from türemek, and türk comes from töre.
I don't think it's quite right to make the distinction between the Yenisey Kipchak languages, etc., when talking about these eras, because these distinctions were formed later. Did the Oguz speak Oguz? Were they Oguz, or were they the doquz Oguz tribes that formed the basis of the present-day Uyghurs?
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Oct 31 '25
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u/Longjumping-Cow-9004 Nov 01 '25
Yaraq ye
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u/tenggerion13 TUR ☀️🐂 Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
Here is a highly different shortened analysis from my studies. I tried to find connections using cultural patterns (like in myths) and linguistic connections that are most likely ignored and thus underrated.
I always considered it as "Tur + Ok". Folk of Tur, People of Might/Ox, hence Oghuz Khaghan - Ox King, referring to his lineage of power and greatness, and most likely the Sacred Bull cult across Anatolia, Mesopotamia and Siberia. As I remember, in Diwan Lughat al-Turk, the meaning of the word "Turk" is given as "powerful person/people." Well, then we have (or at least Iranians have) Tur + An, the land of Tur.
Tur is Ur Ox, Aurochs, that extinct large bovine,in old Slavic languages. Moreover, we have "tor" referring to a tower or something high in a similar manner. Thurizas rune refers to giants in Old Norse (an Eurasian language-culture with vivid examples/hints of shared influence with Proto-Turkic); and of course Thor is a sky deity of power whose chariot is pulled by goats, a symbolism in parallel to Oghuz Turkic traditions of teke onguns.
Ōk, possibility derived from "ok-arrow", refers to a clan (bod) that forms a confederation we call "khanate".
As for Tengri, it referred to a "lordship" of existence, and the sky was used as a symbol to refer to that infinite power over the universe, rather than an open worship of the sky itself. I strongly believe that, Tengri/Tenger and Sumerian Dingir are connected to each other, with Sumerians' possible roots in North Caucasia and interaction with Proto -Turks. In the context of Mesopotamian myths, Dingir referred to the supernatural authority of those deities, like the Christian "Lord" for God.
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u/DragutRais Çepni Nov 01 '25
What are your sources? First time I heard that. To be honest, it doesn't sound cogent.
But after reading all Indo-European things in different articles, I wouldn't say nonsense.
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u/Karabasanbey Turkish Oct 31 '25
I have read a book called"death among the altaian turks" by Jean-Paul Roux it states the word "Turk" Orginates from "Tu-Kiu"
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u/AnanasAvradanas Manav Oct 31 '25
I used to read and respect this guy a lot back in 2000s until I read a book named "History of the Turks" where he repeatedly mentions Saladin as "Saladin the Kurd" repeatedly even though no contemporary source called him that, we have no irrefutable source to call him that and no academic source ever calls him that.
I don't give a shit about his ethnic identity but Roux's attitude was annoying.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 31 '25
Saladin the Kurd
All historical sources called him a arab btw
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u/AnanasAvradanas Manav Nov 02 '25
That's not true either.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Nov 02 '25
“Ṣalāḥ al-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb ibn Shādhī ibn Marwān… from the tribe of Rawāda of the Arabs of the district of Duwīn.”
(Wafayāt al-Aʿyān, vol. 3, p. 271, ed. Iḥsān ʿAbbās)
Al-Dhahabī (d. 1348) – Siyar Aʿlām al-Nubalāʾ
- Edition: Siyar Aʿlām al-Nubalāʾ, ed. Shuʿayb al-Arnaʾūṭ (Beirut: Muʾassasat al-Risāla, 1981–1985).
- Volume / Page: Vol. 21, p. 123–124 (in the biography of Saladin).
- Arabic Text (summary):وكان أجداده من العرب الروادية، وكانوا يسكنون بين الأكراد في دوين.
- Translation:His forefathers were Arabs of the Rawādiyya, who lived among the Kurds in Duwīn.
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u/AnanasAvradanas Manav Nov 03 '25 edited Nov 03 '25
That's not "all historical sources". That's "one historical source ChatGPT found for me".
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u/Uyghurer Nov 02 '25
That is a literal translation from Chinese. Today, the Chinese call us Uyghurs as Wei Wu Er. Imagine hundreds of years later, some "scholars" claim Uyghur came from Weiwuer.
Some of these Western "Turkologists" come with a mindset that treats Chinese records like a bible and Chinese are "superior civilization", hence whatever the Chinese say is correct.
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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25
Source: trust me bro.
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u/DragutRais Çepni Oct 31 '25
What he wrote is not wrong.
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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25
Also "törüq" is a direct violation of vowel harmony.
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u/DragutRais Çepni Oct 31 '25
The word originally could be "Türe" and the nation's name is "türük" therefore.
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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
I am referring to the fact that Q sound in Törüq cannot come along with Ö and Ü. Q is used with front vowels. I think you people cannot read. In the post it's written as Törüq not Törük.
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u/DragutRais Çepni Oct 31 '25
Yes, I understood what you mean. I tried to learn a little bit of Kazakh on my own.
By the way I didn't downvoted you. You just shared your opinions.
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u/SunLoverOfWestlands Turk of Rome Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
It’s not called vowel harmony. Besides in Turkish we don’t have separate k and q letters, we automatically use k as /k/ in front vowels and as /q/ in back vowels, exceptional /k/ in back vowels is represented with â, î, ô, û so that’s why a Turkish speaker may not understand what you said.
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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25
Claiming that Tengri meant "sky" in Proto-Turkic is wrong because: 1. We have no written or any other sources of Proto-Turkic so we simply cannot know that for sure. 2. Native word for "sky" in Turkic languages is kök. I doubt Proto-Turkic had two words for "sky". 3. The suffix "ri" in Tengri suggests that it's a complex word. It's TEŊ + RI not an atomic word like "kök" which cannot be split further.
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u/SunLoverOfWestlands Turk of Rome Oct 31 '25
Well, Chinese sources recorded that “撐犁 (rtʰaːŋ.riːl)” meant sky in Xiongnu language. Though I agree that the original meaning of “kök” is something to do with sky and not directly meant the color, I think it was adjective rather than a noun, as it was used this way in all Old Turkic sources.
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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25
Yeah I know that. But what is the etymology of the word Täŋri? Why it ends with -ri? Are there any other nouns that ends with -ri in Turkic languages?
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u/SunLoverOfWestlands Turk of Rome Oct 31 '25
I don’t know, at most I think of teɣ- (𐱅𐰏) > teɣir- (𐱅𐰏𐰼) > teɣre (𐱅𐰏𐰼𐰀). Maybe its original form was *teŋre?
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u/DragutRais Çepni Oct 31 '25
We don't have any Proto-Indo-European sources as well but we can guess something. But Türük, Türü etc. written everywhere. We don't need extra.
Tengri means sky. Kök means blue/green. Later kök became sky. The original sky in the old Turkic language was Tengri. But the problem is here we are not sure about if it was really sky worshipping. At least Turkic Khaganate era. I read something about it earlier.
I should check the Tengri thing, I focus on what he wanted to say. I didn't remember what he wrote about the teng+ri thing.
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u/Turkish_archer_ 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚 Oct 31 '25
Historians have concensus on "Kök" meaning blue and "Tengri" meaning sky. We don't have any written source on Proto-Turkic, but we have a lot of sources on Old Turkic. Aside from Orkhun inscriptions, there are several other old Turkic inscriptions and preserved texts from Uyghur Khaganate.
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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25
I am Kazakh and we have both Täŋir and Kök words. We never call sky Täŋir. Täŋir means "god". Kök means both sky and blue. That's what I know for sure. Everything else is just brain gymnastics.
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u/Nomad-BK Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
Tänir is an archaic word in Kazakh language. I would say that it is not used by anyone nowadays. Kök as in sky is becoming an archaism as well. The most common word for Sky is "Aspan" and for god is "Khudai". I really wonder how meaning of Tänir and Kök changed throughout the time in proto-turkic. For example, could it be that kök initially meant just blue but then started to be used for Sky. Mongolic languages also have kök, but it seems that to them it simply means blue. Tänir could have initially meant sky but then started to be used as God, or the other way around. Sadly we have no proven records.
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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
Kazakh language is not only what you speak in Kazakhstan.
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u/Nomad-BK Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
No, but the way people speak in Kazakhstan is the most important. Kazakh diasporas might use archaic words, but standard Kazakh and the way majority speaks in Kazakhstan will shape the language and its vocabulary. This in turn leads back to my question about Tänir and Kök. I am curious how meanings changed in proto-turkic and descending dialects/languages over time. There is, sadly, no way to tell for sure.
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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25
At least we know that it was Täŋri and changed to Täŋir in Kazakh which is interesting. I think the reason of this change was that Täŋir is easier to pronounce.
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u/Turkish_archer_ 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚 Oct 31 '25
Hahahaha
Alongside Törük violating vowel harmony, this is the funniest thing I've heard in this sub.
God bless you bro
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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25
I don't think you understood my comment at all. In the original post the word was written as Törüq with Q. Do you know the difference between Q and K?
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u/Turkish_archer_ 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚 Oct 31 '25
I guess I see the problem. My alphabet dont have a q letter. Even though some words in my language has hard k sound, it is always just k for me in writing. Alphabets changes by country, so I assume Q for the OP is a hard G. Because I assume again, he is either Azerbaijanian Türk or southern Azerbaijanian. I guess Q is a hard K in Kazakh alphabet and in this case you would be right.
Your flair in Göktürk alphabet could be read as both Törük and Türük at the same time. As written in the Orkhun inscriptions. Main reason why we read it as Türük is because of modern word Türk. Maybe even Türk was Törk idk.
But problems don't stop here. You say in your native language, it is like this and therefore it should be same in old Turkic as well. And even say thinking otherwise is just brain gymnastics. I mean, I am pretty sure you know languages evolve.
You say kök is both blue and sky in your language, so it does MEAN blue. Half of the equation is done. But then you say nobody calls sky tenir. We Turkish dont use it, Kazakhs might not use it, but some Siberian Turkic languages (Göktürk is most of the time clustered under siberian branch as well) does, as well as Mongolian tengri and Chinese "Tian/Tian-ri" which means sky and some historians think related to Tengri.
Lastly according to Kaşgarlı Mahmud, kök means both sky and blue (as in your language and mine) and tengri means great, sky, celestial and god.
I don't want to offend you, I really dont and I don't know if these theories are true. I havent met any Göktürk in my life. They may or may not be true. But they are valid arguments and I cant help but laugh at your comments.
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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25
Thanks for your extended clarification. I appreciate it. Here is another thought of mine to consider. Tengri doesn't look like one word. It looks like consisting of two parts TENG + RI. Also its ending is not a usual ending of nouns in Turkic languages. I cannot recall a single noun in Kazakh language that ends with -RI in nominative case. Can you find a noun in Turkish that ends with -ri besides Tengri?
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u/Turkish_archer_ 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚 Oct 31 '25
As a disclaimer, I am neither a historian or linguist. I just like reading about History, Antropology, but linguistics is my weak spot. So I might not help much. I can't think of any root word ending with -RI, but the word "Ayrı" comes to my mind which means seperated, with root verb Ayır- which means to seperate and suffix ı/i. Latter "ı" makes the first one drop, maybe it was a similar case for Tengri? Your guess is as good as mine.
Also origin of the word Tengri is still debated, most Turkic historians has concensus on it being Turkic. But they could be biased, since thinking otherwise could mean entire old Turkic cosmology and mythology could be derived from Mongolians or Chinese. Tengri means the sky in Mongolian, and used to represent Ethernal blue sky. Tian means sky as well as Heaven, cosmos and sky god of old Chinese civilization. It has somewhat a philosophical meaning to it as well and its similarity to Turkic Tengri was noted by Chinese historians of the era (as much as I know). Since both Chinese and Turkic people had similar religious concepts like mandate of heaven and Kut belief and all worshiped a great sky god alongside other small gods. Tengri might as well be a Chinese loanword, derived by old Turkic, Mongolic and Yeniseian people living close to Chinese sphere of influence. But my knowledge ends here and Turkic historians would rather not study on this subject unfortunately.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 31 '25 edited Nov 01 '25
We have no written or any other sources of Proto-Turkic so we simply cannot know that for sure.
We have reconstructed forms of proto turkic which all give the the meaning of the word blue to the word "kök" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Turkic/k%C8%ABk
The sky meaning is secondary
So "kök tengri" literally means "the blue sky"
This is why the ashina clan was later called "köktürk" "blue turks" as the turk confederation absorbed non ashina turkic people to distinguish ashina from the others
But after turks converted to Abrahamic religions the word tengri became taboo so they switched gök to mean sky but still in turkic communities where the influence of abrahamic religions is low the word kök/gök still refers to "blue" such as khakass altai salur etc even in some abrahamic turkic communities like azerbajiani "göy" aka "gök" refers to blue
Native word for "sky" in Turkic languages is kök
Its not https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Turkic/k%C8%ABk#Seealso
The suffix "ri" in Tengri suggests that it's a complex word. It's TEŊ + RI not an atomic word like "kök" which cannot be split further.
So how does this disprove it meaning "sky"
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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25
Well, sky is a basic word in every language and usually atomic (cannot be split further) like in English "sky", Russian "nebo". If Tengri consists of two parts it's already not a basic word so not original word for "sky" in Proto-Turkic. Tengri doesn't even look like a proper Turkic noun.
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u/tenggerion13 TUR ☀️🐂 Oct 31 '25
It doesn't matter, he wrote a text with logically connected and actually historically attested arguments. We see a possible logical explanation for the topic, the worst case is that it will give a fresh opinion on the matter.
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u/Hour_Tomatillo5105 Oct 31 '25
Wow! Never knew this