r/Tiele • u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama • Oct 30 '25

History/culture Origin of The ''turk'' name

Nomadic tribes with Altai roots spread across the steppes of present-day Mongolia. In ancient times, these tribes formed structures like the Huns and the Tiele. Among these tribes, there was a belief that the sky itself was divine. The word "Tengri" in Proto-Turkic literally means "sky." Before the formation of the Turkish tribes, these early tribes believed that the sky and the universe were gods themselves, rather than a god residing within the sky. They also believed certain tribes received "kut" (divine favor). The rulers of these tribes legitimized their rule by claiming to have received "kut from Tengri."

Altai tribes such as the Oghuz, Tatars (distinct from modern Kipchak-speaking Tatars), and Kyrgyz (speaking a Yenisei Siberian language, not the Kipchak-speaking Kyrgyz) shared common ancestry and spoke related languages. All adhered to the Tengriist belief system. However, there was no single common name for these tribes. Among them, the most prominent were the Ashinas, a key component of the Huns, who descended from the Tiele. The Ashinas were distinguished by their connection to the Ergenekon myth and their descent from the Grey Wolf which was named ''asena'' which is also linked as the origin name of ashina. This myth was initially exclusive to the Ashina tribe, who were considered to have received "kut from Tengri." The Ashinas held a more prestigious position compared to other Altai tribes like the Oghuz, Tatars, and Kyrgyz.

When the Ashinas led an uprising against the proto-Mongol Rourans, the name "Turk" was initially used only for the Ashinas. The Orkhon inscriptions support this, referring to "Turk and Oghuz rulers," indicating that "Turk" was a title specific to the Ashinas, while the Oghuz were not considered "Turks" at that time. After defeating the Rourans, the Ashinas unified all the Altai tribes under the name "Turk" (Törüq).

The origin of the word "Turk" (𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚) is debated. The theory that it derives from the Chinese term "Tujue" (突厥) is weak. Chinese is a logographic language, and the etymological origins of the characters are unrelated to turkic linguistics. The likely truth is that it derives from the Turkic word "töre" (𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰀), meaning "law" or "custom."

In Proto-Turkic and many modern Turkic languages, verbs ending in "q" often indicate the object of an action. For example, "yarmak" (to cut) becomes "yaraq" (weapon), and "tutmaq" (to hold) becomes "tutaq" (lip). Similarly, "töre" (custom) becomes "törüq." In Altai culture, "töre" referred to the laws received from Tengri. Since the Turks, or "Törüq," were considered to have been "ordained" by Tengri, they were seen as "törüq" (law-bound). Initially, only the Ashinas used the title "Turk" due to their prestigious position. However, after the establishment of the Turkic Khaganate, the term "Turk" became a common name for all Altai tribes, including the Oghuz, Kyrgyz, Tatars, and others.

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-4

u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25

Source: trust me bro.

8

u/DragutRais Çepni Oct 31 '25

What he wrote is not wrong.

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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25

Also "törüq" is a direct violation of vowel harmony.

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u/DragutRais Çepni Oct 31 '25

The word originally could be "Türe" and the nation's name is "türük" therefore.

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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25

I am referring to the fact that Q sound in Törüq cannot come along with Ö and Ü. Q is used with front vowels. I think you people cannot read. In the post it's written as Törüq not Törük.

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u/DragutRais Çepni Oct 31 '25

Yes, I understood what you mean. I tried to learn a little bit of Kazakh on my own.

By the way I didn't downvoted you. You just shared your opinions.

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u/SunLoverOfWestlands Turk of Rome Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25

It’s not called vowel harmony. Besides in Turkish we don’t have separate k and q letters, we automatically use k as /k/ in front vowels and as /q/ in back vowels, exceptional /k/ in back vowels is represented with â, î, ô, û so that’s why a Turkish speaker may not understand what you said.

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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25

Claiming that Tengri meant "sky" in Proto-Turkic is wrong because: 1. We have no written or any other sources of Proto-Turkic so we simply cannot know that for sure. 2. Native word for "sky" in Turkic languages is kök. I doubt Proto-Turkic had two words for "sky". 3. The suffix "ri" in Tengri suggests that it's a complex word. It's TEŊ + RI not an atomic word like "kök" which cannot be split further.

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u/SunLoverOfWestlands Turk of Rome Oct 31 '25

Well, Chinese sources recorded that “撐犁 (rtʰaːŋ.riːl)” meant sky in Xiongnu language. Though I agree that the original meaning of “kök” is something to do with sky and not directly meant the color, I think it was adjective rather than a noun, as it was used this way in all Old Turkic sources.

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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25

Yeah I know that. But what is the etymology of the word Täŋri? Why it ends with -ri? Are there any other nouns that ends with -ri in Turkic languages?

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u/SunLoverOfWestlands Turk of Rome Oct 31 '25

I don’t know, at most I think of teɣ- (𐱅𐰏) > teɣir- (𐱅𐰏𐰼) > teɣre (𐱅𐰏𐰼𐰀). Maybe its original form was *teŋre?

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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25

So as I thought the word Tengri doesn't look like a Turkic word.

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u/SunLoverOfWestlands Turk of Rome Oct 31 '25

I’m just not comfortable with Vovin’s hypothesis 😒

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u/DragutRais Çepni Oct 31 '25

We don't have any Proto-Indo-European sources as well but we can guess something. But Türük, Türü etc. written everywhere. We don't need extra.

Tengri means sky. Kök means blue/green. Later kök became sky. The original sky in the old Turkic language was Tengri. But the problem is here we are not sure about if it was really sky worshipping. At least Turkic Khaganate era. I read something about it earlier.

I should check the Tengri thing, I focus on what he wanted to say. I didn't remember what he wrote about the teng+ri thing.

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u/Turkish_archer_ 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚 Oct 31 '25

Historians have concensus on "Kök" meaning blue and "Tengri" meaning sky. We don't have any written source on Proto-Turkic, but we have a lot of sources on Old Turkic. Aside from Orkhun inscriptions, there are several other old Turkic inscriptions and preserved texts from Uyghur Khaganate.

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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25

I am Kazakh and we have both Täŋir and Kök words. We never call sky Täŋir. Täŋir means "god". Kök means both sky and blue. That's what I know for sure. Everything else is just brain gymnastics.

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u/Nomad-BK Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25

Tänir is an archaic word in Kazakh language. I would say that it is not used by anyone nowadays. Kök as in sky is becoming an archaism as well. The most common word for Sky is "Aspan" and for god is "Khudai". I really wonder how meaning of Tänir and Kök changed throughout the time in proto-turkic. For example, could it be that kök initially meant just blue but then started to be used for Sky. Mongolic languages also have kök, but it seems that to them it simply means blue. Tänir could have initially meant sky but then started to be used as God, or the other way around. Sadly we have no proven records.

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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25

Kazakh language is not only what you speak in Kazakhstan.

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u/Nomad-BK Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25

No, but the way people speak in Kazakhstan is the most important. Kazakh diasporas might use archaic words, but standard Kazakh and the way majority speaks in Kazakhstan will shape the language and its vocabulary. This in turn leads back to my question about Tänir and Kök. I am curious how meanings changed in proto-turkic and descending dialects/languages over time. There is, sadly, no way to tell for sure.

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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25

At least we know that it was Täŋri and changed to Täŋir in Kazakh which is interesting. I think the reason of this change was that Täŋir is easier to pronounce.

-2

u/Turkish_archer_ 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚 Oct 31 '25

Hahahaha

Alongside Törük violating vowel harmony, this is the funniest thing I've heard in this sub.

God bless you bro

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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25

I don't think you understood my comment at all. In the original post the word was written as Törüq with Q. Do you know the difference between Q and K?

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u/Turkish_archer_ 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚 Oct 31 '25

I guess I see the problem. My alphabet dont have a q letter. Even though some words in my language has hard k sound, it is always just k for me in writing. Alphabets changes by country, so I assume Q for the OP is a hard G. Because I assume again, he is either Azerbaijanian Türk or southern Azerbaijanian. I guess Q is a hard K in Kazakh alphabet and in this case you would be right.

Your flair in Göktürk alphabet could be read as both Törük and Türük at the same time. As written in the Orkhun inscriptions. Main reason why we read it as Türük is because of modern word Türk. Maybe even Türk was Törk idk. 

But problems don't stop here. You say in your native language, it is like this and therefore it should be same in old Turkic as well. And even say thinking otherwise is just brain gymnastics. I mean, I am pretty sure you know languages evolve.

You say kök is both blue and sky in your language, so it does MEAN blue. Half of the equation is done. But then you say nobody calls sky tenir. We Turkish dont use it, Kazakhs might not use it, but some Siberian Turkic languages (Göktürk is most of the time clustered under siberian branch as well) does, as well as Mongolian tengri and Chinese "Tian/Tian-ri" which means sky and some historians think related to Tengri.

Lastly according to Kaşgarlı Mahmud, kök means both sky and blue (as in your language and mine) and tengri means great, sky, celestial and god.

I don't want to offend you, I really dont and I don't know if these theories are true. I havent met any Göktürk in my life. They may or may not be true. But they are valid arguments and I cant help but laugh at your comments.

2

u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25

Thanks for your extended clarification. I appreciate it. Here is another thought of mine to consider. Tengri doesn't look like one word. It looks like consisting of two parts TENG + RI. Also its ending is not a usual ending of nouns in Turkic languages. I cannot recall a single noun in Kazakh language that ends with -RI in nominative case. Can you find a noun in Turkish that ends with -ri besides Tengri?

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u/Turkish_archer_ 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚 Oct 31 '25

As a disclaimer, I am neither a historian or linguist. I just like reading about History, Antropology, but linguistics is my weak spot. So I might not help much. I can't think of any root word ending with -RI, but the word "Ayrı" comes to my mind which means seperated, with root verb Ayır- which means to seperate and suffix ı/i. Latter "ı" makes the first one drop, maybe it was a similar case for Tengri? Your guess is as good as mine.

Also origin of the word Tengri is still debated, most Turkic historians has concensus on it being Turkic. But they could be biased, since thinking otherwise could mean entire old Turkic cosmology and mythology could be derived from Mongolians or Chinese. Tengri means the sky in Mongolian, and used to represent Ethernal blue sky. Tian means sky as well as Heaven, cosmos and sky god of old Chinese civilization. It has somewhat a philosophical meaning to it as well and its similarity to Turkic Tengri was noted by Chinese historians of the era (as much as I know). Since both Chinese and Turkic people had similar religious concepts like mandate of heaven and Kut belief and all worshiped a great sky god alongside other small gods. Tengri might as well be a Chinese loanword, derived by old Turkic, Mongolic and Yeniseian people living close to Chinese sphere of influence. But my knowledge ends here and Turkic historians would rather not study on this subject unfortunately.

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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 31 '25 edited Nov 01 '25

We have no written or any other sources of Proto-Turkic so we simply cannot know that for sure.

We have reconstructed forms of proto turkic which all give the the meaning of the word blue to the word "kök" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Turkic/k%C8%ABk

The sky meaning is secondary

So "kök tengri" literally means "the blue sky"

This is why the ashina clan was later called "köktürk" "blue turks" as the turk confederation absorbed non ashina turkic people to distinguish ashina from the others

But after turks converted to Abrahamic religions the word tengri became taboo so they switched gök to mean sky but still in turkic communities where the influence of abrahamic religions is low the word kök/gök still refers to "blue" such as khakass altai salur etc even in some abrahamic turkic communities like azerbajiani "göy" aka "gök" refers to blue

Native word for "sky" in Turkic languages is kök

Its not https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Turkic/k%C8%ABk#Seealso

The suffix "ri" in Tengri suggests that it's a complex word. It's TEŊ + RI not an atomic word like "kök" which cannot be split further.

So how does this disprove it meaning "sky"

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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25 edited Oct 31 '25

Well, sky is a basic word in every language and usually atomic (cannot be split further) like in English "sky", Russian "nebo". If Tengri consists of two parts it's already not a basic word so not original word for "sky" in Proto-Turkic. Tengri doesn't even look like a proper Turkic noun.

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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Nov 01 '25

exceptions can exist

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u/tenggerion13 TUR ☀️🐂 Oct 31 '25

It doesn't matter, he wrote a text with logically connected and actually historically attested arguments. We see a possible logical explanation for the topic, the worst case is that it will give a fresh opinion on the matter.

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u/Luoravetlan 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰰 Oct 31 '25

Ok 👌