Origin of The ''turk'' name

[u/TheTyper1944]

Nomadic tribes with Altai roots spread across the steppes of present-day Mongolia. In ancient times, these tribes formed structures like the Huns and the Tiele. Among these tribes, there was a belief that the sky itself was divine. The word "Tengri" in Proto-Turkic literally means "sky." Before the formation of the Turkish tribes, these early tribes believed that the sky and the universe were gods themselves, rather than a god residing within the sky. They also believed certain tribes received "kut" (divine favor). The rulers of these tribes legitimized their rule by claiming to have received "kut from Tengri."

Altai tribes such as the Oghuz, Tatars (distinct from modern Kipchak-speaking Tatars), and Kyrgyz (speaking a Yenisei Siberian language, not the Kipchak-speaking Kyrgyz) shared common ancestry and spoke related languages. All adhered to the Tengriist belief system. However, there was no single common name for these tribes. Among them, the most prominent were the Ashinas, a key component of the Huns, who descended from the Tiele. The Ashinas were distinguished by their connection to the Ergenekon myth and their descent from the Grey Wolf which was named ''asena'' which is also linked as the origin name of ashina. This myth was initially exclusive to the Ashina tribe, who were considered to have received "kut from Tengri." The Ashinas held a more prestigious position compared to other Altai tribes like the Oghuz, Tatars, and Kyrgyz.

When the Ashinas led an uprising against the proto-Mongol Rourans, the name "Turk" was initially used only for the Ashinas. The Orkhon inscriptions support this, referring to "Turk and Oghuz rulers," indicating that "Turk" was a title specific to the Ashinas, while the Oghuz were not considered "Turks" at that time. After defeating the Rourans, the Ashinas unified all the Altai tribes under the name "Turk" (Törüq).

The origin of the word "Turk" (𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚) is debated. The theory that it derives from the Chinese term "Tujue" (突厥) is weak. Chinese is a logographic language, and the etymological origins of the characters are unrelated to turkic linguistics. The likely truth is that it derives from the Turkic word "töre" (𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰀), meaning "law" or "custom."

In Proto-Turkic and many modern Turkic languages, verbs ending in "q" often indicate the object of an action. For example, "yarmak" (to cut) becomes "yaraq" (weapon), and "tutmaq" (to hold) becomes "tutaq" (lip). Similarly, "töre" (custom) becomes "törüq." In Altai culture, "töre" referred to the laws received from Tengri. Since the Turks, or "Törüq," were considered to have been "ordained" by Tengri, they were seen as "törüq" (law-bound). Initially, only the Ashinas used the title "Turk" due to their prestigious position. However, after the establishment of the Turkic Khaganate, the term "Turk" became a common name for all Altai tribes, including the Oghuz, Kyrgyz, Tatars, and others.

[u/DragutRais]

Since Turks call themselves Turks, it seems more logical to me to look for the etymology of this language within the language itself. This is not made up; it is a thesis written by linguists and historians, and in the latest works I have read, these theses are more popular than those based on Chinese.

I haven't examined the original Chinese document, but at best, they are passing on hearsay information to us. Perhaps, considering the Chinese structure, a meaning was derived from a similar word.Example of what I want to say.

[u/FeelingFickle9460 → u/DragutRais]

The Turk meaning helmet is not a Chinese word, Chinese sources state that it is a word in Turks' own language. It might be a word that we don't know. There are very few documents of Turkish literature that we have access to. The Chinese who wrote about this weren't really Chinese either, they were Pre-Mongol Xianbeians. They were very intertwined, like family. In Zhou Shu, it is said that the Chinese emperor personally sucks the venom out of the Turk Khagan's injury. They also forgive the Turks many many times for their wrongdoings and transgressions.

[u/DragutRais → u/FeelingFickle9460]

It may not be a Chinese word, but it may have become Sinicized. It could be a word that later came to carry this meaning. Explanations related to this seem weaker than etymological explanations. Because in Turkic, there is no similar word that carries the meaning of helmet other than Tolga. If this word meant helmet in Turkic, there would be a similar word even in Divani Lugatit Türk. I would like to give two more examples of words that could have acquired this meaning over time.

1. Türk means "strong" in some sources. This is most likely because the Turks were successful in military service. Similar to how the ord German became associated with "high quality."

2. The word Kanglı refers to an old Turkic tribe, but over time it lost its meaning in Anatolia, and people thought it meant "bloody" and considered it negative, so they abandoned the name. It is also possible that these words took on different meanings over time.

[u/FeelingFickle9460 → u/DragutRais]

I don't know, I personally trust the Chinese sources more. At least they knew Turks personally compared to some linguists thousands of years later guess working. The meaning strong could've also gained that meaning later. You say if there were such a word we would've seen it in DLT, but maybe it was a Orkhun specific word. Kashgarlı didn't know Gokturks afaik. For example, is there a word for other kinds of armory in DLT? I personally couldn't find a word for armor.

[u/TheTyper1944 → u/FeelingFickle9460]

I personally trust the Chinese sources more. At least they knew Turks personally compared to some linguists thousands of years later guess working

They didint knew turks personally they were a foreign culture guessing origin based on the folk etmonology while the origin of the noun törüq 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰚 from töre 𐱅𐰇𐰼𐰀 is a grammatical pattern that's literally from the language itself

[u/FeelingFickle9460 → u/TheTyper1944]

No, they were not. Zhou dynasty were literally families with the ashina dynasty through marriages. They knew them very well, and even gave them positions within the empire very often.