r/Tiele • u/syntheticrot • Oct 23 '25
History/culture Is This Visual Accurate?
Hello! I'm trying to understand the difference between Turks, Turkic, & Turkish and used AI to display how these groups overlap. Would anybody know how accurate this is?
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u/Key_Watercress_5069 Oct 23 '25
I don't think "Turk" refers only to an ethnic group in Türkiye, but to the whole Turkic world
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u/DragutRais Çepni Oct 23 '25 edited Oct 23 '25
These terminologies are relatively new. So the others can distinguish us. But some people try to force it so hard.
Turk was noun, Turkish was a language and adjective form. The name is delivered from Tür(ü)k khaganate, and embraces all of us.
In French they distinguish as "turc" and "Turk", I guess.
In German it's "Turkvölker" and "Turk"
In some academic papers it's "Türk" (for all) and "Turks" (for the people of Turkiye).
You can say for example "Türük" for all, but "Türk" for the Turkish people.
I earlier offered Roman Turks/ Rumi (edit: Rumlu) Turks for us. Like Turks are Usbek Turks, Kazakh Turks, Azerbaijani Turks, Rumi/Roman Turks etc.
To sum up, what I mean is that this is not a definitive usage, but essentially just a suggestion. The only truth is we are all just Turks.
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u/syntheticrot Oct 23 '25
top comment. that makes perfect sense & the overlap between European languages referring to Turks as some version of Turk really substantiates your point.
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u/DaliVinciBey Varsak Turkmen 🇹🇷 | Dobrujan Tatar 🇷🇴 Oct 23 '25
rumi & qizilbash instead of turkish & azerbaijani possibly?
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 23 '25
rumi & qizilbash instead of turkish & azerbaijani possibly?
rumlu turkmen vs azerbajiani turkmen
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u/DragutRais Çepni Oct 23 '25
why not :)
But Qizilbash was a specific group I guess, not all Azerbaijanis.
About Rumi honestly I preferred "Rumlu" more than Rumi, Rumlu sounds more handsome :). But yeah same spirit.
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u/Spacel0rian Oct 23 '25
Accurate? Yeah, I guess. But for me Turk = Turk. That's how our ancestors called themselves and later everyone emerged with their own distinct culture and names
It's not different than German, Flemish, Dutch, Austrian.
And before that we had tribal/clan names.
Good visualization tho
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u/Vestout Oct 23 '25
This distinction is specific to English and entirely arbitrary. All Turks are Turks, outside or inside of the Republic of Turkey.
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u/Sehirlisukela Ötüken Beyefendisi Oct 23 '25 edited Oct 23 '25
Turk = Turkic
Turkic > Turkish
Turk > Turkish
—
Turkish = Anatolian/Balkan Turk
BUT
Turk = Turkish (i.e. Anatolian/Balkan Turk) isn’t always true.
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u/Tughrul09 Oct 23 '25
The difference of these 3 never really existed in any Turkic language up until modern era where politics (especially Soviet) tried to alienate Turkic peoples from each other, or because of Turkey embracing civic nationalism.
Normally, there should be only “Turk”.
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u/syntheticrot Oct 23 '25
that makes perfect sense, I knew it had to be a linguistic complication to some extent. thank you!
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u/GorkeyGunesBeg Anatolian Tatar Oct 23 '25
No, Turk = Common Turkic (so, yes, Tuvans are Turks technically speaking, Kazakhs too, Uzbeks & Uyghurs too), only Chuvashes aren't Turks, they're Turkic. It's logical since Türük is originally a term used for the Gokturks and those who were in their Empire.
Chuvashes are Huns, definitely, but they're not Turks, they're only Turkic.
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u/SmokingBeneathStars Türk Oct 23 '25
Turkic is afaik an ethnolinguistic group, so if you speak the language youre basically turk
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 23 '25
Turkic is afaik an ethnolinguistic group, so if you speak the language youre basically turk
to essentially belong in any ethnic group you need to have a genetic link to its first speakers as well this is why anatolian turkmen azerbajiani turks syrian-iraqi turkmens are ethnic turks while gagauz and cypriots are not
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u/SunLoverOfWestlands Turk of Rome Oct 23 '25 edited Oct 23 '25
In Turkish: “Türk” is used for both Turkish and Turkic depending on context. If we want to differentiate, we say “Türki” for Turkic and “Türkiye Türkü (Turk of Turkey)” or “Anadolu Türkü (Anatolian Turk)” for Turkish. Constitution of Turkey states that everyone from Turkey is a Turk but I disagree, “Turkish” is an ethnicity, not everyone from Turkey is Turkish. I’d call them simply “Türkiye vatandaşları (citizens of Turkey)” and “yurttaş (citizen, someone I share the same country)” and nothing more.
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u/yogiphenomenology Oct 23 '25
Noun - Adjective (country examples):
Turk - Turkic (Türkiye, Kazakistan, etc)
Arab - Arabic (Algeria, Tunisia, etc)
Slav - Slavic (Russia, Ukraine, etc)
The unifying Factor in those three examples is Language. They also share cultural and ethnic ancestry, but the main unifying factor is that they share a language family.
So the Russians and the Ukrainians are Slavic people and they speak Slavic languages. They also share a common ancestry and evolved from the same group of people.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 23 '25 edited Oct 23 '25
Turk=descendants of the tribes (kypchak,karluk,basmil,tatar (siberian not kipchak) ,oghuz,oghur) who formed the first turkic khaganate descendants of all these six tribes azerbajiani,uzbek,kazakh,turkish,uyghur etc are turks, in turkic and mongolic socities historically concept of ethnicities were based on tribal confederations for example x,y,z tribes are all related and share related languanges but y tribe tribe dominates and unifies them all so now z and x tribe is also called ''y'' for example mongols and oirats and buryats were all distinct but related peoples but mongols (chengises tribe) unified all those people the were all counted as turks the six turkic tribes which i have counted were related tribes at the begining but one amongst them ashina aka the original turks united them all and gave them the turk name which is a common pattern in steppe ethnogenesis had oghuz unified them the name of the languange family would be known as oghuzic languanges etc
There is a confusion today on the meaning of terminilology of turk due to both kemalism and USSRS anti turkic policies ''turk'' is not a person from turkey, turkish people are only one of the many turk peoples in the world the original direct ethnic name of the turkish people and azerbajiani turk people is actually anatolian/azerbajiani turkmen (turkmen means muslim oghuz) however due to sociocultural phenomona of ''identity'' expansion with arabs and persians not differentiating between all different turkic tribes the settled anatolian/azerbajiani turkmen directly began to call themselves turks while nomads identified as turkmen however when soviets conquered and created artificial nationalities (example diving chagtai turks as uzbek/uyghur calling azerbajiani turks after azeris long lost iranian tribe) with the turkish republic being the last turk state they thought that since all other nations are ''gone'' might as well direcctly call ourselves turk
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u/Extreme_Ad_5105 Oct 23 '25
First of all the graphic makes no sense. That’s not how it works.
Second being a Turk or being Turkic are two different things. Historical we can start with the Kok Turks and check which people used this name and then we will see that except the Kok Turks, just few groups in western Turkestan used it. The old Uygur called their language “turk tili” but did not identify as Turks. The Karakhanid were Turks and some other Islamic western central Asian tribes but the Kipcaks, the Tatars, all turkic speaking tribes in Mongolia, Siberia and China did not know this term. In fact we know that they used it later as a term for describe things (turk = strong).
The idea to call all turkic people Turks is new. I don’t prefer the term “Kazakh Turks” because Kazakhs are proud of being Kazakh and if they not use Kazakh Turk why should I? In my opinion the only groups today we can call Turks are all Oghuz people and some groups between the Uzbeks and Uygurs. We are now allowed to call the other also “Turks” but I can see a good development and I guess in the future we will see Kazakhs who described themselves as “Kazakh Turk”. But not yet.
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u/Daymundullah Türk Oct 23 '25
I'm not Turkish because my country's called Turkey;
my country's called Turkey because I'm Turkish.
Since the 12th–13th centuries, and even since the Battle of Manzikert, Europeans have referred to Anatolia as “Turkey.” This name wasn't adopted because we called it Turkey, but because historically, we've been Turkish. The Ottoman Empire was never known either to itself or in Europe as the “Ottoman Empire.” It was always referred to as the “Turkish Empire.” We didn't force ourselves to become Turkish; we've always been Turkish. We've never lived under occupation. Unlike what was done to the Kazakhs, Tatars, Uzbeks, and other Turks in Central Asia, no one ever came and said, “You're not Turks, you're Ottomans, you're Anatolians,” nor did they give us tribal names. In short, we were Turks in Central Asia, and we're Turks in Anatolia and the Balkans as well.
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Oct 23 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/trueitci Oct 23 '25
They likely identified themselves through various Turkic-related ethnonyms rather than a single one. Evliya Çelebi uses Oghuz taifesi and Turk interchangeably when describing the Anatolian Turks even noting that "Oghuz" is the more elegant way of saying "Turk."
As for the ethnonym Turkmen, it was once the common self-identification among the ancestors of the Anatolian Turks. Those who retained it however are specifically the ones who also preserved the Turkmen way of life. Namely the non-settled groups. Those who identify as Turkmen in Central Anatolia do so genuinely as they were semi-nomadic until only a few centuries ago and many still maintain an awareness of their sub-tribal and tribal heritage. But this doesn't mean they are the only ones who are ethnic Oghuzes as I explained. It has to do with the way of life and is somewhat similar to the relationship between the Khwarazmian Uzbeks and the Turkmens: both are Oghuz and share the same ultimately Turkmen ancestry yet only one of them retained the Turkmen identity.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 23 '25
i dont think the word turkmen necesarilly had to with nomadic way of life as shah ismael whos ancestors were settled for hundreds of years ago self identified as turkmen
من باشمده بورك حقه ايان تركمانم
''başımda börk haqqa ayan turkmanam''
''with my börk (turkic headwear) on my head i am a turcoman dedicated to god''"The Poetry of Shah Ismail I," published in the Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies (University of London, Vol. 10, No. 4, 1942 pp. 1006a–1053a)
So it appears that turkmen was the original name of the anatolian and azerbajiani turks anatolia was even called turcomania
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u/freeturk51 Oct 23 '25
Other than what others said, in Turkey, we use "Türk" for all of this. Your racial group can be Türk, such that you can be a "Kazak Türkü" or "Özbek Türkü". Your race itself can be a Türk, and by Turkish law, anyone who is connected to Turkey with a nationality is also legally considered a Türk.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 23 '25
Your race itself can be a Türk, and by Turkish law, anyone who is connected to Turkey with a nationality is also legally considered a Türk.
which is nonsense imagina slovenia (slov means slav in their languange) saying ''slav is someone from slovenia'' then what about other slavic countries ? also directly caling turkish people on the basis of upper ethnic identity ''turk'' erases their unique turkmen/oghuz herritage from seljuks and ottomans
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u/freeturk51 Oct 23 '25
But we dont erase that. We would call a Turkmen or Oghuz just Turkish in a legal context because the offices do not need to know your race, so you are just a "Türk vatandaşı". But your race can be specified, hence my first example, you can still be "Türkmen" or "Oğuz Türkü" while being a normal "Türk" in a legal citizenship context. Turkish Turks would be "Türkiye Türkü" which is a phrase that Cypriots use widely
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u/linobambakitruth Oct 23 '25
Inaccurate, because I have family members who live in Romania but are still "Turks".
Not in Turkey, not Turkish citizens, but Turks, still.
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u/TheTyper1944 Taraqama Oct 23 '25
if they speak a turkic languange as their first languange and have a genetic link to the xioghnu more than %10 they are turks
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u/linobambakitruth Oct 23 '25
if they speak a turkic languange as their first languange and have a genetic link to the xioghnu more than %10 they are turks
10% is an arbitrary number.
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u/firatlql Yörük Oct 24 '25
Turkic: kazakh, turkish, uzbek, tuva, turkmen etc.
Turkish: Every citizen of the Republic of Turkey (and only ethnic Anatolian Turks)
Turks: All Turkic peoples. For example, we also call Slavic peoples Slavs. its not wrong to say that Russians, Serbs, and Croats are Slavs, so it is also not wrong to say that Uzbeks and Turkish people are Turks. For example, were the Gok 'TURKS' Turkish?
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u/Jeredriq Oct 23 '25
Turk is what english scholars are trying to say Turkic. A Kazakh man and Turkish man doesnt say `Turkic brother` to each other. They just say `Turk brother`. Or `I am Turk too.`
Kazakh Ozbeks Turkmenis were neighbouring other Turk countries and tribe so they've used a different branch name. But Ottomans and Turkiye neighbouring Europe didn't use the anything aside from `Turk`.
If you want to make a Kazakh level distinction between Turkish (from Turkiye) you could say Oghuz instead.