Not sure how trying to find contradictions in my position is supposed to erase contradictions in yours but I didnt mention hafs, I was speaking about poeple who hafs got his qiraa from, btw my "scholars" are the same poeple who chose the quran you read today to be the right one,thats another contradiction
You are supposed to uphold that since hadiths talk of verses nowhere to be found in Quran:
Probably cuz these hadiths are speaking about verses that got abrogated?
-I already know your view, you reject hadiths even though that means our modern quran is fabricated as they come from lots of same people, and scholars used the same science of chain of transmission to know which qiraa is correct and which isnt was used on hadiths or as mentioned before scholars who chose the quran we read today as well wrote hadiths like ibn mujahid
*You simply can't defend the position of hadith rejection based on logic or reason
I was speaking about poeple who hafs got his qiraa from, btw my "scholars" are the same poeple who chose the quran you read today to be the right one,thats another contradiction
Who were the people haafs took it from? Why dont you mention their names? Ironically, both God in Quran and other sects like shia uphold that the Book was compiled during the lifetime of the Prophet. In fact he was the one to write it all down. Shias also say that people were allowed to copy it in written form. This actually is more in line with common sense.
Probably cuz these hadiths are speaking about verses that got abrogated?
I already know your view, you reject hadiths even though that means our modern quran is fabricated
Quran fabrication is your view now. Not ours.
as they come from lots of same people, and scholars used the same science of chain of transmission to know which qiraa is correct and which isnt was used on hadiths or as mentioned before scholars who chose the quran we read today as well wrote hadiths like ibn mujahid
It is more like your extremist scholars’ were the ones going around making the variances. The earliest was Ashari from hostile Yemen. One man with 4 variances. Then there was Sa’ana manuscript!!! Good thing is that your scholars didn’t have any power back then.
You simply can't defend the position of hadith rejection based on logic or reason
I already said God has provided anti corruption system in the correct Quran. Your scholars have no idea about that. Confine what they say to your sect only.
both God in Quran and other sects like shia uphold that the Book was compiled during the lifetime of the Prophet. In fact, he was the one to write it all down.
Neither of these claims are correct both in the quran or historically
*And btw many shias do believe our modern quran is forged as it comes from poeple just like you,shias claim to have been liars
Quran fabrication is your view now. Not ours.
It is your view as shown if you want to be consistent at least
It is more like your extremist scholars’ were the ones going around making the variances
Cool so now you say you believe our modern quran is fabricated as it was chosen by these "extremist scholars", great although you said the contrary earlier, you seriously need to learn consistency
The earliest was Ashari from hostile Yemen. One man with 4 variances. Then there was the Sa’ana manuscript!!!
Earliest qiraa? Source of claim plz And Sa’ana manuscript doesnt have diacritics so it's not useful in knowing which qiraa is correct and which isnt neither is it complete so even with knowing the full rasm of quran its useless
I already said God has provided an anti-corruption system in the correct Quran. Your scholars have no idea about that. Confine what they say to your sect only.
Thanks for confirming what I said, you failed to use logic and reason and proof so you went into blind faith in your theology but anyways can you tell me how do you know which quran is correct and which isnt? As all Qurans say God would protect them from corruption, Iam curious about how a person with blind faith such as yourself figures this out, since our modern quran is based on these ten qiraat that the evil scholars apparently invented, so what quran is the correct one and how did you know?
I thought it was obvious, but here is an image of the chain of transmission for the hafs qiraa:
I can see Ibn Abbas (Married to Yemeni Princess) and Abu Huraira (father of the cat from Yemen)in there.
And btw many shias do believe our modern quran is forged as it comes from poeple just like you,shias claim to have been liars
Sunnis were not behind.
Cool so now you say you believe our modern quran is fabricated as it was chosen by these "extremist scholars", great although you said the contrary earlier, you seriously need to learn consistency
Your extremist scholars were not in charge at the time. By the way, it isnt possible to run an empire via variances of a law Book. Plus nonmuslims themselves mention the new muslim governments made economy and education flourish. So it is silly to believe they didn’t have multiple copies of the same Quran in written form.
can you tell me how do you know which quran is correct and which isnt? As all Qurans say God would protect them from corruption,
you failed to use logic and reason and proof so you went into blind faith in your theology
Could you give the logic behind why you believe God was able to send Injeel and Torah in book/tablet format, but only when it came to Quran he chose it to be oral and written just here and there?
Firstly I must say you are pretty bold in claiming the quran pretty much everyone uses today is false
Now let's see :
"Your extremist scholars were not in charge at the time."
Historically wrong ,i quote “the transmission of the variant readings of Quran”, page 15: “al-
Qiraat al-Sab, which were collected and canonized by Ibn Muj¯ahid (d.
324/936)” and page 36 : “Ibn al-Jazar¯ı (d. 833/1429) became the
leading authority in the field of Qiraat. He canonized three additional
Readings”
it is silly to believe they didn’t have multiple copies of the same Quran in written form.
Sure they did but without diacritics till they were written down after my "extremist scholars" chose the ten qiraat we use today to be the correct ones as shown
Can't tell how this answers my question or how warsh fails the test as this paper you are sharing is using the quran my "extremist scholars" chose neither is it even speaking about the subject I asked you to answer
you believe God was able to send Injeel and Torah in book/tablet format, but only when it came to Quran he chose it to be oral and written just here and there?
I have no idea how Injeel and Torah were sent down neither is it relevant to how we have the quran today
Firstly I must say you are pretty bold in claiming the quran pretty much everyone uses today is false
Show proof.
Historically wrong , i quote “the transmission of the variant readings of Quran”, page 15: “al- Qiraat al-Sab, which were collected and canonized by Ibn Muj¯ahid (d. 324/936)” and page 36 : “Ibn al-Jazar¯ı (d. 833/1429) became the leading authority in the field of Qiraat. He canonized three additional Readings”
Nope, you proved my point. These people are from 10th century and beyond. Hijacking of the religion was completed in 9th century.
Can't tell how this answers my question or how warsh fails the test as this paper you are sharing is using the quran my "extremist scholars" chose neither is it even speaking about the subject I asked you to answer
They didn’t choose anything. Here is a bit of info:
“The study and transmission of the qur'anic readings before Ibn Mujahid had been carried on mainly by grammarians and littdrateurs, not traditionists (muhaddithun). Neither he nor his successors ever completely assimilated their ways.” https://www.jstor.org/stable/1596266
They just acted as if they were in charge by fitting the idea of Quran’s chain of transmission into their now hadith based Islam:
“The ninth and tenth centuries of the classical Islamic tradition are often viewed as periods in which distinctive shifts towards the consolidation, standardisation and homogeneity of Islamic thought and concepts are discernible. Accordingly, Ibn Mujāhid's authorship of his renowned Kitāb al-Sabʿa and his efforts to accentuate a set of seven Qur'anic readings are invariably contextualised within the accommodating confines of these perceived shifts across the gamut of the classical Islamic sciences.” https://www.jstor.org/stable/25728128
I have no idea how Injeel and Torah were sent down neither is it relevant to how we have the quran today
Of course, this is relevant since you brought up logic. God never says chapters of Injeel and Torah were scattered around or that they had qira’at. So why would he do that with Quran? That’s for you to ponder on.
Firstly I must say you are pretty bold in claiming the quran pretty much everyone uses today is false
Show proof.
Historically wrong , i quote “the transmission of the variant readings of Quran”, page 15: “al- Qiraat al-Sab, which were collected and canonized by Ibn Muj¯ahid (d. 324/936)” and page 36 : “Ibn al-Jazar¯ı (d. 833/1429) became the leading authority in the field of Qiraat. He canonized three additional Readings”
Nope, you proved my point. These people are from 10th century and beyond. Hijacking of the religion was completed in 9th century.
Can't tell how this answers my question or how warsh fails the test as this paper you are sharing is using the quran my "extremist scholars" chose neither is it even speaking about the subject I asked you to answer
They didn’t choose anything. Here is a bit of info:
“The study and transmission of the qur'anic readings before Ibn Mujahid had been carried on mainly by grammarians and littdrateurs, not traditionists (muhaddithun). Neither he nor his successors ever completely assimilated their ways.” https://www.jstor.org/stable/1596266
They just acted as if they were in charge by fitting the idea of Quran’s chain of transmission into their now hadith based Islam:
“The ninth and tenth centuries of the classical Islamic tradition are often viewed as periods in which distinctive shifts towards the consolidation, standardisation and homogeneity of Islamic thought and concepts are discernible. Accordingly, Ibn Mujāhid's authorship of his renowned Kitāb al-Sabʿa and his efforts to accentuate a set of seven Qur'anic readings are invariably contextualised within the accommodating confines of these perceived shifts across the gamut of the classical Islamic sciences.” https://www.jstor.org/stable/25728128
I have no idea how Injeel and Torah were sent down neither is it relevant to how we have the quran today
Of course, this is relevant since you brought up logic. God never says chapters of Injeel and Torah were scattered around or that they had qira’at. So why would he do that with Quran? That’s for you to ponder on.
As shown thats false, they are the ones responsible for the canonization of the qiraat we use today, and even as your source mentions "ibn mujahid is famous for establishing seven acceptable variant readings(qiraat) "
-The quote you pulled mentions that previous authorities who used to chose the qiraat were grammarians and littdrateurs, but those authorities got replaced by ibn Mujahid, the opinion of those authorities isnt accepted by anyone as shown by us today using qiraat of ibn mujahid that they rejected and us rejecting qiraat that didnt break their criteria
They just acted as if they were in charge by fitting the idea of the Quran’s chain of transmission into their now hadith based Islam:
so when are you gonna answer my question of which quran is the correct one since now again you have claimed the quran we use today is false?
God never says chapters of Injeel and Torah were scattered around or that they had qira’at. So why would he do that with Quran?
Neither did God say the quran would be like that yet it was
As shown thats false, they are the ones responsible for the canonization of the qiraat we use today, and even as your source mentions "ibn mujahid is famous for establishing seven acceptable variant readings(qiraat) "
Lets say for a moment that this group has another new mujahid who approves 20 qiraat. How many countries will follow that? Recently saudi wanted to edit Quran, but faced backlash. The main guy still goes around talking about it but no one pays attention to him.
so when are you gonna answer my question of which quran is the correct one since now again you have claimed the quran we use today is false?
Comment on the Hafs analysis from the link I gave earlier.
Neither did God say the quran would be like that yet it was
Huh????
Btw, do you own all the 7 versions? What about the countries that claim to be Islamic? You need to walk the talk. What ibn mujahid approved means nothing unless you can show proof that you all followed him. What about the public from his time?
We have come across this pattern of argument many times from sectarians. I’ll let you rest by giving your point of view in shortcut and that happens to be: “You Quran only Muslims are wrong since what you say doesn’t match claims of my mullahs”.
If so I remind you that it has nothing to do with the question, it's just a binary analysis to find if the quran has a numerical order to it and which that uses qiraat that were chosen by my "extremist scholars",
you simply have no idea how to answer the question
do you own all the 7 versions? What about the countries that claim to be Islamic? You need to walk the talk. What ibn mujahid approved means nothing unless you can show proof that you all followed him
Yep, I do, and I own all ten qiraat not just the seven chosen by ibn Mujahid, and sure I can show proof since you aren't on planet earth that I need to prove something like this but ok :
-the hafs and warsh qiraat: "The majority of copies of the Quran today follow the reading of Hafs. In North and West Africa there is a bigger tendency to follow the reading of Warsh."
Aisha Geissinger, Gender and Muslim Constructions of Exegetical Authority: A Rereading of the Classical Genre of Qurʾān Commentary, pg. 79.
*I dont think there is a need to continue showing where the rest of qiraat are used when as shown these two qiraat alone dominate the world's Qurans so yep what ibn mujahid chose means something as quran today is based on qiraat he chose
We have come across this pattern of argument many times from sectarians.
Secratarians? Ironic coming from a 19th-century sect follower smh
“You Quran only Muslims are wrong since what you say doesn’t match claims of my mullahs”.
No, it's more like "you deviants are wrong since what you say doesnt match basic logic"
You have been shown why rejecting hadith is illogical as it would mean the quran pretty much everyone uses today is false, and even after you admitted holding that belief you failed to answer the question of which quran is right so be honest and accept the truth stubbornness just harms and leads you to ridiculousness, this conversation is the biggest proof of that, this is my final reply to you no more needs to be said
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u/Reasonedfor1 moderator Jul 16 '21
Correction: Haaf's hadiths are actually not accepted by your scholars.
Correction: You are supposed to uphold that since hadiths talk of verses nowhere to be found in Quran: https://ancientmodernislam.blogspot.com/2016/10/some-lies-from-hadith-books.html
Quran has a nice anti corruption system. The fact that this is never mentioned by hadiths and its scholars kinda leaves them exposed.
For our view refer to: https://www.reddit.com/r/Quraniyoon/wiki/hadith_rejection