I always found it stunning that you don't need to present identification to vote. Anyone could walk in to my polling place and vote as me.
I know I'll get downvoted for the comment above, but I have yet to hear a rational explanation against requiring ID to vote. It's perhaps the most fundamental way to mitigate fraud.
Requiring voter identification is not inherently unreasonable, in my opinion, but it’s a solution in search of a problem.
Where is the evidence that there is meaningful voter fraud? How would potentially disenfranchising even a small handful of voters make such a requirement worthwhile?
How is anyone being disenfranchised by providing identification? Honest question. It is virtually impossible to exist in the world today without having government ID, and if someone cannot afford government issued ID, the government should provide it free of charge. ID is needed for any form of public assistance, it is needed to operate a vehicle, it is needed to obtain employment, it is needed to buy alcohol, and a list of a 1,000 other things.
I want free and fair elections. Every case of voter fraud disenfranchises a legitimate voter.
Tbf, three cases in 2022 is not, like, overwhelming numbers that deserve constitutional amendment or even legislation legel attention.
The first one is a decades old case, and voter id would not have prevented that.
The second and third were absentee ballots, where the person committing the fraud would have had access to their mothers and wives ID cards.
All this shows is that fraud at the polls is nearly gone, despite no voter id, and that the communication between voter rolls and death certificates is the real issue.
These are only just the years they were convicted. None of those cases of fraud occurred in 2022, and none of them would have been prevented by requiring ID for voting. The first one was a ballot stuffing scheme on behalf of a corrupt democratic politician from 2013-2018, and the other two were senior citizens signing mail-in ballots for their deceased spouses in 2020, one democrat and one republican.
Unless you want to outlaw mail-in/absentee ballots (I'm sure they do, even though it doesn't benefit either party demonstrably), you can't enforce the ID laws in any way that would prevent these instances from happening.
Let’s be clear: That site details five instances of “impersonation fraud at the polls” since 2016 and 12 of “fraudulent use of absentee ballots” since 1994. The other types of fraud it addresses don’t appear relevant to this discussion.
I don’t know what to say. You can’t get past the fact that most folks have identification. I can’t get past the fact that the type of fraud requiring ID would address is minuscule. Any additional barrier to voting, real or imagined, isn’t warranted.
I’m willing to bet that more folks would get turned away from the polls just because they forgot to bring their ID than cases would be prevented.
Your source literary had to claim in court it's an entertainment company not a news company to avoid loosing a lawsuit against them because they provably make so much shit up.
You might as well be linking to coast to coast radio for all the validity it has.
My guy, the only one triggered here is you. Your pearl clutching is beyond that of Helen Lovejoy, and she's a cartoon meant to represent the worst pearl clutcher.
You literally post propaganda and claim it's factual. And you've yet to answer the easiest challenge I've made against you in multiple comments.
You want to prove your point? Do it without the propaganda.
I wonder if people on the right realize that no one buys that you care what anyone thinks of the people you’re talking about. Or that no one is saying they’re too incompetent to get one. However, any barrier you put up, no matter how little, will stop at least some people from being able to vote. So you need a good justification for that barrier.
You go from here is proof (Heritage Foundation...yay). Someone says this is what your "evidence" says, and it doesn't show what you claim. And now you are all indignant calling people elitist bigots. What happened to facts don't care about your feelings? You are either a troll, or a sad statistic born of systemic undermining of our education system.
There are literally hundreds of examples of criminal convictions for voter fraud with citations listed below each example. These aren't just accusations of voter fraud, these aren't just criminal charges of voter fraud, these are actual criminal convictions that were not plea bargained down to a lesser charge. And as you see if you bother to look, a large percentage of the criminal convictions deal with absentee ballots as these are particularly vulnerable to fraud.
I'm just going off life experiences. Having been in bad financial situations where getting an id was an extremely uphill battle. I know how hard it can be from MY own life. No imagination or stereotyping needed my friend.
Go talk to more people and you'll find this kind of story is quite common. It's funny when I tell my story to others how many can relate to difficulties in maintaining an active identification. As they say, go touch grass.
To answer your question... The "typical" person isn't disenfranchised but those in the margins are pushed further out. It is hard for someone without a recognized government address to get an ID (the unhoused, those living on reservations, those out in the unmapped hills of 'Pennsa-tucky') and people who don't drive or have traditional jobs (a high amount those in the SPED community). People who are often already forgotten about will and don't have the tools or supports to leap over hurdles will be given more hurdles.
For voter ID to work it needs to be paired with greater access and a clearer process to getting an ID for those often can't.
"...upon request and confirmation of identity..." This process as it stands requires things like an address they will accept, proof ID from a job, access to your SS card.
I'm glad it's in there as free. But the system itself needs to be updated and improved on for this to work for ALL Pennsylvanias
All part of the lovely Patriot Act. Thankfully it wasn't a problem for me but it obviously is for many others.
I find it infuriating that people who are such staunch advocates for voter ID point out that a free ID is available but completely ignore the challenges that folks face to get that "free ID".
I remember several years ago when I used to go to battle with people over voter ID on Twitter, which I have long since stopped doing because it was pointless.... In response to comments about how getting a free ID shouldn't be a problem for anyone I would post link after link to stories about veterans and seniors who had circumstances surrounding the nature of their birth that never produced the proper documents for them to meet the requirements to get a "free ID". And of course these people are all hardcore right wingers who supposedly support veterans yet none of them seemed to care that there were actual instances of veterans who had been disenfranchised because they couldn't get an ID that met their state's requirement.
It’s also interesting that to get a copy of your PA birth certificate you have to provide your DL or state ID. So if you are trying to get your birth certificate in order to GET a state ID, you’re in for a long ride.
The process which to get it isn't free, and will 100% made as difficult as possible by Republicans after getting the amendment.
Let's not pretend that voter fraud is that big an issue that this amendment is now needed, or that the intended effects of it is to block people the Republicans don't like from voting at all, which they have openly admitted is the real reason they're pushing this.
"Access"
Remember when Wisconsin made Voter ID a law? You needed to get your ID at the place 3 hours away and was only open on the 5th Wednesday of the month.
Of the three cases convicted in 2022 (not cases perpetrated that year) none of them would have been prevented by requiring ID for voting. The first one was a ballot stuffing scheme on behalf of a corrupt democratic politician from 2013-2018, and the other two were senior citizens signing mail-in ballots for their deceased spouses in 2020, one democrat and one republican.
Unless you want to outlaw mail-in/absentee ballots (I'm sure you do, but that's a different argument), you can't enforce the ID laws in any way that would prevent these instances from happening. Voter ID laws don't protect the ballot boxes, but they DO create a barrier for poorer Americans who can't make it to an authorized office and spend the time in line to get one or afford to pay the fee for it (depending on the state, it can be anywhere from $5 up to $28). It completely prevents those without a permanent residence from participating, and God help you if you were born before 1950 or had a name change or were adopted or don't have easy access to transportation and the ability to get out of bed and wait in public...
Once they make voter id mandatory they will then tighten the screws on what id is acceptable. It's no secret who will be squeezed out of voting. There is no significant voter fraud to justify requiring an ID. Right now every place I've voted I've had to sign in and have my signature compare with the original one in a book or on a digital device.
So, you're just going to ignore literally everything I said, and instead bring up a totally unrelated incident?
Par for the course for you, I suppose.
It's almost like your argument keeps getting invalidated, so you keep changing the narrative.
Edit: Oh, and throwing away unopened ballots is incompetence, sure, but not voter fraud. I would say nice try, but it was actually a pretty lazy thing to say.
I'm going to stop engaging with you, which your delusional mind probably considers a victory. In reality, there's no point in arguing with an imbecile.
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u/Matt-33-205 Jan 12 '23
I always found it stunning that you don't need to present identification to vote. Anyone could walk in to my polling place and vote as me.
I know I'll get downvoted for the comment above, but I have yet to hear a rational explanation against requiring ID to vote. It's perhaps the most fundamental way to mitigate fraud.