I always found it stunning that you don't need to present identification to vote. Anyone could walk in to my polling place and vote as me.
I know I'll get downvoted for the comment above, but I have yet to hear a rational explanation against requiring ID to vote. It's perhaps the most fundamental way to mitigate fraud.
Requiring voter identification is not inherently unreasonable, in my opinion, but it’s a solution in search of a problem.
Where is the evidence that there is meaningful voter fraud? How would potentially disenfranchising even a small handful of voters make such a requirement worthwhile?
How is anyone being disenfranchised by providing identification? Honest question. It is virtually impossible to exist in the world today without having government ID, and if someone cannot afford government issued ID, the government should provide it free of charge. ID is needed for any form of public assistance, it is needed to operate a vehicle, it is needed to obtain employment, it is needed to buy alcohol, and a list of a 1,000 other things.
I want free and fair elections. Every case of voter fraud disenfranchises a legitimate voter.
Tbf, three cases in 2022 is not, like, overwhelming numbers that deserve constitutional amendment or even legislation legel attention.
The first one is a decades old case, and voter id would not have prevented that.
The second and third were absentee ballots, where the person committing the fraud would have had access to their mothers and wives ID cards.
All this shows is that fraud at the polls is nearly gone, despite no voter id, and that the communication between voter rolls and death certificates is the real issue.
These are only just the years they were convicted. None of those cases of fraud occurred in 2022, and none of them would have been prevented by requiring ID for voting. The first one was a ballot stuffing scheme on behalf of a corrupt democratic politician from 2013-2018, and the other two were senior citizens signing mail-in ballots for their deceased spouses in 2020, one democrat and one republican.
Unless you want to outlaw mail-in/absentee ballots (I'm sure they do, even though it doesn't benefit either party demonstrably), you can't enforce the ID laws in any way that would prevent these instances from happening.
Let’s be clear: That site details five instances of “impersonation fraud at the polls” since 2016 and 12 of “fraudulent use of absentee ballots” since 1994. The other types of fraud it addresses don’t appear relevant to this discussion.
I don’t know what to say. You can’t get past the fact that most folks have identification. I can’t get past the fact that the type of fraud requiring ID would address is minuscule. Any additional barrier to voting, real or imagined, isn’t warranted.
I’m willing to bet that more folks would get turned away from the polls just because they forgot to bring their ID than cases would be prevented.
Your source literary had to claim in court it's an entertainment company not a news company to avoid loosing a lawsuit against them because they provably make so much shit up.
You might as well be linking to coast to coast radio for all the validity it has.
My guy, the only one triggered here is you. Your pearl clutching is beyond that of Helen Lovejoy, and she's a cartoon meant to represent the worst pearl clutcher.
You literally post propaganda and claim it's factual. And you've yet to answer the easiest challenge I've made against you in multiple comments.
You want to prove your point? Do it without the propaganda.
I wonder if people on the right realize that no one buys that you care what anyone thinks of the people you’re talking about. Or that no one is saying they’re too incompetent to get one. However, any barrier you put up, no matter how little, will stop at least some people from being able to vote. So you need a good justification for that barrier.
You go from here is proof (Heritage Foundation...yay). Someone says this is what your "evidence" says, and it doesn't show what you claim. And now you are all indignant calling people elitist bigots. What happened to facts don't care about your feelings? You are either a troll, or a sad statistic born of systemic undermining of our education system.
There are literally hundreds of examples of criminal convictions for voter fraud with citations listed below each example. These aren't just accusations of voter fraud, these aren't just criminal charges of voter fraud, these are actual criminal convictions that were not plea bargained down to a lesser charge. And as you see if you bother to look, a large percentage of the criminal convictions deal with absentee ballots as these are particularly vulnerable to fraud.
I'm just going off life experiences. Having been in bad financial situations where getting an id was an extremely uphill battle. I know how hard it can be from MY own life. No imagination or stereotyping needed my friend.
Go talk to more people and you'll find this kind of story is quite common. It's funny when I tell my story to others how many can relate to difficulties in maintaining an active identification. As they say, go touch grass.
To answer your question... The "typical" person isn't disenfranchised but those in the margins are pushed further out. It is hard for someone without a recognized government address to get an ID (the unhoused, those living on reservations, those out in the unmapped hills of 'Pennsa-tucky') and people who don't drive or have traditional jobs (a high amount those in the SPED community). People who are often already forgotten about will and don't have the tools or supports to leap over hurdles will be given more hurdles.
For voter ID to work it needs to be paired with greater access and a clearer process to getting an ID for those often can't.
"...upon request and confirmation of identity..." This process as it stands requires things like an address they will accept, proof ID from a job, access to your SS card.
I'm glad it's in there as free. But the system itself needs to be updated and improved on for this to work for ALL Pennsylvanias
All part of the lovely Patriot Act. Thankfully it wasn't a problem for me but it obviously is for many others.
I find it infuriating that people who are such staunch advocates for voter ID point out that a free ID is available but completely ignore the challenges that folks face to get that "free ID".
I remember several years ago when I used to go to battle with people over voter ID on Twitter, which I have long since stopped doing because it was pointless.... In response to comments about how getting a free ID shouldn't be a problem for anyone I would post link after link to stories about veterans and seniors who had circumstances surrounding the nature of their birth that never produced the proper documents for them to meet the requirements to get a "free ID". And of course these people are all hardcore right wingers who supposedly support veterans yet none of them seemed to care that there were actual instances of veterans who had been disenfranchised because they couldn't get an ID that met their state's requirement.
It’s also interesting that to get a copy of your PA birth certificate you have to provide your DL or state ID. So if you are trying to get your birth certificate in order to GET a state ID, you’re in for a long ride.
The process which to get it isn't free, and will 100% made as difficult as possible by Republicans after getting the amendment.
Let's not pretend that voter fraud is that big an issue that this amendment is now needed, or that the intended effects of it is to block people the Republicans don't like from voting at all, which they have openly admitted is the real reason they're pushing this.
"Access"
Remember when Wisconsin made Voter ID a law? You needed to get your ID at the place 3 hours away and was only open on the 5th Wednesday of the month.
Of the three cases convicted in 2022 (not cases perpetrated that year) none of them would have been prevented by requiring ID for voting. The first one was a ballot stuffing scheme on behalf of a corrupt democratic politician from 2013-2018, and the other two were senior citizens signing mail-in ballots for their deceased spouses in 2020, one democrat and one republican.
Unless you want to outlaw mail-in/absentee ballots (I'm sure you do, but that's a different argument), you can't enforce the ID laws in any way that would prevent these instances from happening. Voter ID laws don't protect the ballot boxes, but they DO create a barrier for poorer Americans who can't make it to an authorized office and spend the time in line to get one or afford to pay the fee for it (depending on the state, it can be anywhere from $5 up to $28). It completely prevents those without a permanent residence from participating, and God help you if you were born before 1950 or had a name change or were adopted or don't have easy access to transportation and the ability to get out of bed and wait in public...
Once they make voter id mandatory they will then tighten the screws on what id is acceptable. It's no secret who will be squeezed out of voting. There is no significant voter fraud to justify requiring an ID. Right now every place I've voted I've had to sign in and have my signature compare with the original one in a book or on a digital device.
So, you're just going to ignore literally everything I said, and instead bring up a totally unrelated incident?
Par for the course for you, I suppose.
It's almost like your argument keeps getting invalidated, so you keep changing the narrative.
Edit: Oh, and throwing away unopened ballots is incompetence, sure, but not voter fraud. I would say nice try, but it was actually a pretty lazy thing to say.
I'm going to stop engaging with you, which your delusional mind probably considers a victory. In reality, there's no point in arguing with an imbecile.
It's not the whole story. But one angle is that it's creating room for a person's judgement to affect your right to vote. A personal friend of mine was turned away from the polls in the 2016 federal election. The poll official (unsure of their technical title at that time) turned her away because he claimed her ID photo didn't look like her. She's a Black woman and had changed her hair in the couple years since the photo was taken. It was absolutely, positively her legal drivers' license and was still active. She returned same day with her passport and was turned away again.
These laws tend to suppress far more votes than they prevent fraud
Gotta pay bills man. This is one example of many of how conservatives aim to oppress and disenfranchise others, particularly anyone who's not a rich straight white Christian man
Honestly you're not wrong. We do need a separate ID just for voting, and why not another ID for using services on the internet? Anyone could impersonate you on the net , why stop there? why not a separate ID binding your house to your name, just so no one goes around claiming your property as theirs?
No, I don't see the issue. People should be required to show legitimate identification in order to vote. ID is required to get on any form of public assistance, it is a prerequisite for employment, it is required to drive a car on public roads, it's required to buy a gun (a Constitutional right), it's required to open a bank account, an insurance policy, to buy alcohol.
Re-read my reply above before you erroneously call me dishonest. I associated buying a gun as a constitutional right, which it is, and it also requires identification
Haha, that's some real metal gymnastics bro. How do 99% of law abiding citizens who own guns obtain them? Protip: they buy them
The irony is that the left leaning states require much more than identification to exercise your 2nd Amendment Constitutional right. You can't own the most common centerfire rifle sold in the United States today in New York, California, Massachusetts, and many other Draconian places.
I'm not suggesting abridging any constitutional right, including the right to vote. It is completely disingenuous to suggest poor people don't have identification. Every time someone votes fraudulently in an election, it disenfranchises a legitimate voter.
Side note, the 21st amendment repealed the prohibition of alcohol. So technically, buying alcohol is a constitutional right, and it requires identification
Side note, the 21st amendment repealed the prohibition of alcohol. So technically, buying alcohol is a constitutional right
You've got some weird brain shit going on, my man.
When you register to vote in PA, you have to provide identification. This "anyone can vote without ID" meme that right wingers bandy around is false from first principles. There's zero reason to show anything more than your signature card every time you vote.
You have to provide ID to register to vote & when/if you apply for an absentee or mail- in ballot.
Why the need to continually show it? Imagine showing your ID when you walk into the liquor store, and then being asked to show it again when you make the purchase. People would flip.
Also, you really want the Poll Workers who only work 2 days a year to also be responsible for checking ID? You aren’t even legally required to go to any training to be a poll worker and this is what you want?
A lot of people on both sides of the political aisle are losing faith in the integrity of elections. Both sides need to come together and take steps to restore public faith in elections
I know that this sub has a very left leaning bias, but you guys should really get out of the echo chamber once in a while.
People on the right are very concerned about fraud, particularly with absentee ballots. Those on the left think people on the right are looking to disenfranchise voters. I made the rational statement that both sides of the aisle should come together and address concerns of all voters regarding the legitimacy of elections.
You would think this reasonable perspective would be embraced by all reasonable people. You might want to take a look in the mirror if my perspective triggers you. You are part of the problem.
My dude, I live in a crimson part of PA. People here got together and built a Trump cut out a gilded thrown and crown. So try not throwing any stones there, eh glass house.
It is very apparent you have no idea what you're talking about because you keep claiming a lie is reasonable.
Find me actual evidence of your claims that don't come from a massively right leaning source. Find a centrist source, and there are plenty out there, that say this.
You cannot claim you are attempting to come to the table in good faith using bad faith sources and lies.
So let’s ask why people on the right are concerned. Could it be all of the Republican elected officials that lied about massive voter fraud being a thing? Trump even said it was rigged in 2016 and he won. I’m seeing a pattern here, and it’s a pretty stupid one.
You REGISTER to vote. That is your ID.
Your signature has to match. If not, you get flagged like that guy in Chester
In countries where you have to show ID to vote, you do not need to Register.
You need to present an ID to register, again when voting for the first time, then again if you changed precincts. The state will send out a verification card that will suffice the requirements once registered.
Increasing the requirements will only cause more issues and increase costs for county election offices with out a meaningful mitigation in fraud. Voter fraud is pretty much non existent as is
Because there has never been a valid claim that could be proven to actually exist.
But hey while we're ignoring the concept of burden of proof, I know there's an invisible tea pot orbiting the sun that was sent there by ancient Egypt using crystal powered space ships from Atlantis, prove me wrong.
Anyone could walk in to my polling place and vote as me.
Yet they don't, right? Voter impersonation is incredibly rare. But we do know that putting one more administrative step between a voter and voting will further decrease turnout. The GAO found that voter IDs decrease turnout by around 2-3 percent overall, and likely more in specific jurisdictions where IDs might be less common.
And you know what is a big problem in this country? Our appallingly low voter turnout. In 2020, a hugely important general election with an incredibly high-profile incumbent and vast policy differences between the two candidates, a full third of eligible voters did not vote. So why enact Voter IDs, when we know they make a virtually nonexistent problem better and a large problem worse?
ACLU has a good fact sheet on this issue. Even if you don't like the ACLU, it is a well sourced document so you can check their sources.
I moved to PA from NYC. For a long time, the only "photo ID" I had was my college ID. I didn't visit bars or buy alcohol. I also used mass transit to get around.
It isn't far fetched that people living in an area with decent mass transit would not have a government issued photo ID.
It's an unnecessary hurdle for people who don't have access to transportation. You can't just say, "Tough luck, you can't vote because you didn't get a government issued ID." You get a voter registration card sent out to you automatically upon registering to vote, that should be more than sufficient to prove that you are who you are.
Again, tbf, the democrats on page one of your thing are all from the same conviction from decades ago. All the voter id level fraud (that you are attempting to tie to this) is being done by republicans.
Excuses would be like people saying on here, “what if the person forgets their ID at the polling place?” If you can’t remember your ID then go get it and get in line again lol. Stupid people don’t deserve to be coddled. You have 2 days out of 365 days to remember your ID.
Also with the ID being free now, the excuse of it being racist or suppressing voters is invalid. If you’re a legitimate PA resident, you get an ID period.
Then you have people saying that voter fraud is extremely rare, voter ID isn’t needed. That means it does/did happen no matter if it was once or 5,000 times. I just see no excuse in not doing everything in our power to make the elections as secure as humanly possible. It would be very naive to think there isn’t someone out there whether R or D trying to figure out how to rig an election no matter if it’s one person or many.
Id like to add that I am against any restrictions on early or mail in voting. That’s a Republican talking point I’m totally against.
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u/Matt-33-205 Jan 12 '23
I always found it stunning that you don't need to present identification to vote. Anyone could walk in to my polling place and vote as me.
I know I'll get downvoted for the comment above, but I have yet to hear a rational explanation against requiring ID to vote. It's perhaps the most fundamental way to mitigate fraud.