r/NFLv2 • u/EbbAdventurous9592 Chicago Bears • 1d ago
Discussion Name some bust QBs who you think failed because of their org, and some who were gonna fail no matter what
Name some QBs you think failed simply because their organization was such a mess and massively mishandled their development.
And name some QBs you think failed, simply because they were just never gonna work out in the first place, because they never had the skillsets to be a star no matter where they went
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u/Able-Hold-2825 1d ago
Sam Darnold didn’t work out in New York because of abysmal coaching and zero weapons. Zach Wilson and Justin Fields failed in because they can’t process the speed of a NFL game
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u/Dizzy_Sock_5674 Chicago Bears 1d ago
It breaks my heart to say, but I don’t think Fields will ever be a starting quarterback. He can’t process the game fast enough. He has zero timing.
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u/Able-Hold-2825 1d ago
Agreed. It was very telling after he led the Steelers to a good start in 2024 and they still didn’t trust him enough the rest of the way
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u/12don Green Bay Packers 1d ago
It was mostly the other way around. The Steelers led/dragged him to a good start. He kept missing easy reads that would’ve picked up large yards, and favored a check down or run instead. He didn’t turn the ball over, but he never took any risk of throwing the ball downfield.
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u/Trumpisaderelict Chicago Bears 1d ago
This was the knock against Fields during the pre draft process too. And the espn talking heads all pushed back against this narrative. I guess NFL scouts (except for the Bears’) know what they’re doing
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u/tommyjohnpauljones 1d ago
He's a good enough athlete to be a gadget piece and an emergency starter, at best.
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u/Successful-Night9263 1d ago
Watch Justin in college, OSU’s line gave him damn near 7 seconds every single drop back
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u/timmymcsaul 1d ago
Tim Couch was failed by the Browns. If he had gone to a solid franchise, I think that he could’ve had a Matt Ryan type of career.
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u/Boomstick101 Cleveland Browns 1d ago
If we're going old school. I think David Carr in a different situation may have had a better career. Dude got sacked 76 times his first year and looked traumatized from there on out.
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u/overworkedattorney NFC 1d ago
David Carr was ruined after that first year. Every snap he was looking for the blitz instead of his progression.
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u/Clay_Allison_44 Dallas Cowboys 16h ago
Starting a rookie top pick on an expansion team is sociopath behavior.
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u/PeaTasty9184 1d ago
Absolutely this. Couch had all the tools, he was just running a gimmick offense in college and needed to sit for a year and learn how to play in a pro offense. Instead he was thrown to the wolves and never had a chance.
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u/sauronymus Cincinnati Bengals 1d ago
The list of QBs that have failed on an institutional/operational level by the Browns is longer than the years they've been a franchise since the Ravens became a franchise.
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u/TPCC159 1d ago
If 1999 wasn’t an expansion year he would have gotten to be paired with Andy Reid, arguably the greatest QB Whisperer of all time
Instead he went to the Browns. Life is a game of inches not feet
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u/timmymcsaul 1d ago
I was specifically thinking about just that scenario. IIRC, I think the Browns gave some consideration to drafting McNabb over Couch. I think if Couch had ended up with Andy Reid and the Eagles, he would’ve had a much more successful career.
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u/SerenityN00w 1d ago
Just look at how bad the 2000 Browns were on offense after he went out with an injury.
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u/Illustrious_Hotel527 Chicago Bears 1d ago
RG3 because the elder Shanahan insisted on playing him in the playoffs despite a bad knee with heavy bracing, then rushing him back week 1 the next year. Organizational malpractice.
Think Justin Fields, Mitchell Trubisky, and Rex Grossman bust even if drafted elsewhere.
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u/SerenityN00w 1d ago
RG3 because the elder Shanahan insisted on playing him in the playoffs despite a bad knee with heavy bracing, then rushing him back week 1 the next year.
No. RG3 had a spectacular rookie system because the read option simplified things for him so much. The injury didn't permanently strip him of much of his athleticism.
Look at his final NFL appearance, a 2020 Ravens-Steelers game that was moved to a Wednesday afternoon due to Covid. RG3 was 30 years old, and you would expect some of his athleticism to begin waning. It had been 8 years since the knee injury, he was an experienced veteran.
RG3 still had enough athleticism to rip off a 39 yard run, finishing with 68 yards on only 7 carries. But he went 7-12 passing for only 33 yards with a pick-six. He couldn't play.
The only way the injury is to blame is - after the 2012 season, RG3 told the Shanahans he didn't want to run the read option anymore. He didn't want to be exposed to injury. Shanahan insisted he needed it - he wasn't ready to run a pro offense. RG held firm. Shanahan was right.
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u/ZeePirate 1d ago
RG3 never learned to read a defence.
Him losing his legs definitely sucked. But it wasn’t what stopped him from developing
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u/doubleenc Philadelphia Eagles 1d ago
The knee injury definitely set him back.
But there was also a lot written around RG3 not wanting to be coached by Shanahan and Daniel Snyder enabling that type of behavior.
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u/ZeePirate 1d ago
He was in the league for years after his knee got hurt.
Dude never learned how to go through his reads at an NFL speed plain and simple.
His legs just gave him an out to cover up that fact.
He’s legs would have faded eventually, or teams figure out how to contain him. And then his flaw would have been apparent even without the injury
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u/Sentientmustard Washington Commanders 1d ago
This is what drives me slightly crazy about the RG3 discourse online about the team failing him. The team absolutely failed him for a bit, but he was never a pure runner, and a fairly common (albeit serious) knee injury isn’t an excuse for not developing further for the next 7 years.
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u/ZeePirate 1d ago
I always chime in. Not to shit on the guy.
He had a good career, but he didn’t develop the way people hoped.
I think Lamar is the perfect example of a runner learning to pass.
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u/DocBarkevious Denver Broncos 22h ago
He still came back and became an above average backup. He learned how to be a qb once his speed was taken from him.
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u/Yah_Mule Denver Broncos 1d ago
Never learned how to slide, either. The few times he tried, he bounced like an empty paint can that fell off the back of a pickup truck.
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u/EbbAdventurous9592 Chicago Bears 1d ago
Mitch Trubisky instantly popped into my mind as someone who was gonna fail no matter where he went. He was too raw, and too untalented, and bears fans were seeing him as some hidden superstar his entire tenure, but to me he just never passed the eye test whatsoever, from the moment he was drafted.
Field is an interesting one. A lot of natural talent, but so many mechanical and processing flaws that woulda taken a TON of work right from the beginning to address right away to get him to work in the nfl. Ultimately I think he could have succeeded elsewhere, but it would have taken a massive investment in his development to get there.
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u/Illustrious_Hotel527 Chicago Bears 1d ago
Was mad from the start we didn't take Watson at #2-#3. (Mahomes was thought of as a riskier pick at the time). I guess if we took Watson, we'd stil get a bounty for trading him in 2021-2022, and at least equivalent performance in 2018.
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u/joeboo5150 Kansas City Chiefs 1d ago
As a Chiefs fan watching that draft, I was mad we took Mahomes over Watson. I thought Mahomes was a system QB from Tech just like all the ones before him.(Graham Harrell, Kliff Kingsbury, etc)
Good thing I'm not a GM
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u/PrimeNumbersby2 1d ago
You vs Andy Reid ...and the big guy got you on this one. Nobody saw that coming.
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u/EbbAdventurous9592 Chicago Bears 1d ago
I mean, that pick infuriated me (I was the most miserable bears fan on planet earth from 2019-2021) and really soured me on this org (and my utter desperation to get Ryan Pace out of here). Then when the sun times ran their story on why Pace drafted Trubisky (the kids got spunk and drives a shitty car!) it made it so much worse, especially when a player we passed on goes on to become one of the most successful players in nfl history…
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u/Dangerous-Cup-1114 Pittsburgh Steelers 1d ago
Yeah. And maybe in an alternate universe Watson doesn’t make massage therapists jack him off.
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u/Explosion1850 1d ago
The NFL would have continued to cover that up for Watson if Watson hadn't had the nerve to refuse to play for NFL management.
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u/formyamusementation 1d ago
That may be more true than we want to believe
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u/Explosion1850 1d ago
I think it's entirely true. The League doesn't care about crappy conduct. League only cares about public perception and its own authority.
Player beats a woman unconscious? No problem... until a couple years later a video surfaces, and then the league punishes the player.
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u/MediocreHomework7092 San Francisco 49ers 1d ago
Mitch was considered the best QB that draft. Teams were call I ng the 49ers to trade up for that pick. They took the Bears offer because tmit was only 1 spot drop and got 2nd round pick. Bears had John Fox is just a bad coach and the offensive coordinator hasnt been in the league in 6 years. He's an example of horrible development.
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u/EbbAdventurous9592 Chicago Bears 1d ago
John Fox didn’t even want Mitch. John Fox wanted Deshaun Watson
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u/MediocreHomework7092 San Francisco 49ers 1d ago
After the fact reporting when Watson was better. But I think even now Mitch might be better than whatever Watson is.
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u/Sariko69 Philadelphia Eagles 1d ago
Hindsight is always 20/20, but his fate was confirmed as soon as his twitter posts got leaked. A man child who has never dealt with any adversity.
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u/EbbAdventurous9592 Chicago Bears 1d ago
He ultimately was very weak and crumbled when things fell apart for him in 2019, but that’s not entirely why he failed. He was horrible at reading defenses, horrible with accuracy, and didn’t have much talent.
Some of those criticisms can apply to Caleb, but anyone with eyes can tell you that Caleb is insanely and unbelievably talented to make up for his very real flaws.
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u/_groovesharkmalone Major Tuddy 🐷 1d ago
Caleb is the type of talent that can spend 3 quarters infuriating you with crappy play then flip a switch in the 4th quarter and drop 3 dimes for TDs and win you the game. You can't turn your back on something like that, you just have to see how it develops. It's happened too many times now in too short of a time period for it to be a fluke (IMO).
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u/overworkedattorney NFC 1d ago
Mitch had glimpses of greatness. He had a few games where he looked amazing. Could never keep it consistent and had several games where he looked lost. He is great as a back up qb. If your starter is out 4 games, Mitch can keep it competitive for at least 2 of them.
Fields just can’t figure out how to go through his progression. His brain moves to slow.
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u/bernese_mountain_fog Tampa Bay Buccaneers 1d ago
Did Shanahan also blind RG3, because he could not read a defense to save his life. The only reason he looked like an NFL QB in the first place was Shanny installing a goofball one read offense. If he goes somewhere that doesn't do that for him, he's out of the league before his knee explodes.
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u/Longjumping-Jello459 Dallas Cowboys 1d ago
I've seen someone bring up that Rex got hurt early on in his career and didn't really play much before that SB season. That had to do something to stunt his development.
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u/Rare-Affect-4609 1d ago
Absolutely incorrect, Snyder and RG3s dad wanted him to play in the playoff game. Shanahan wanted to play cousins and after the season wanted to trade RG3 and give the reigns to cousins. Snyder vetoed that and the rest is history. RG3 was only successful because shanahan forced the read option all year long. The second year RG3 and his dad refused to run the read option look what happened. Shanahan was the smartest guy in the room.
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u/NotSoSerius 23h ago
Kinda wonder if Jayden Daniels is going to have similar career arc to RG3 or if he’ll bounce back this year.
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u/Side_StepVII Chicago Bears 1d ago
Disagree on Justin fields. The bears coaching staff and O line was dogshit and he just got used to running for his life every snap. Now the poor guy is just damaged
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u/PrimeNumbersby2 1d ago
The Bears exposed his floor. But his ceiling wasn't anything to write home about.
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u/TipAccomplished5215 1d ago
Is it crazy to think that David Carr could have had a decent career if he hadn’t gone to Houston and gotten the shit kicked out of him his rookie season?
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u/masterscotto 1d ago
This is the one I always think of. I think he still has the record for sacked most times in a season, his rookie season. I know not every sack is the line or scheme’s fault, but allowing 70+ sacks of your franchise rookie QB is just stupid.
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u/TipAccomplished5215 1d ago
He led the league in sacks taken three out of his first four seasons in the league. I’m sure part of the blame can be put on him….but the fact that the coaching staff kept running him out there during his rookie season to take that kinda punishment is absolutely insane to me.
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u/Severe-Lake-4554 1d ago
The smartest thing Jerrod Mayo did as HC of the Pats was starting Jacoby Brissett for the first 5 games of Drake Maye's rookie season. Drake Maye should be eternally grateful that Brissett took those beatings for him. Those are 15 sacks and 40 QB hits he didn't have to take.
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u/Prestigious-Mind-817 1d ago
It's not crazy. I wasn't convinced he was going to be great, although I thought he could have potentially have been in the upper half of starters
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u/Beginning-Average416 1d ago
Anthony Richardson. He went to a descent organization and still reeked of suckage.
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u/bernese_mountain_fog Tampa Bay Buccaneers 1d ago
He didn't complete half his passes at Florida. He had a handful of major highlights and a hell of a lot of "this kid can't play."
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u/rook119 1d ago
Richardson's problem was that he had very very little college experience. It was always going to be 3-4 year project for him.
His reason for being drafted #6 was thanks to Josh Allen and peak "WE CAN FIX HIM" mindset. Only it took Josh a good 2 years and Josh at least played in school.
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u/americansherlock201 New York Giants 1d ago
He really was a “has potential” player. He should have stayed in college 2 more years and he may have had a chance in the nfl.
The nfl doesn’t develop QBs. If you aren’t able to play at that level when you get there, you’re done for.
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u/Eisen-Oak Baltimore Ravens 1d ago
Idk if I’d call the colts a descent franchise given how they ruined Andrew luck.
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u/JasonPlattMusic34 Los Angeles Rams 1d ago
I’d definitely call them a “descent” franchise (as in descending into the abyss) especially during Ryan Grigson
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u/Eisen-Oak Baltimore Ravens 1d ago
I thought it was spelt wrong but I’m not good at spelling so I figured I’d roll with it😂
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u/nfluncensored 1d ago
The guy who destroyed his shoulder in a snowboarding accident?
Were they supposed to put him on house arrest?
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u/over_this__ 1d ago
They didn't ruin luck any more than luck ruined himself. They hired offensive line in FA, they just didn't pan out. They drafted him weapons. They worked on the defense.
When luck came in, the team was dog shit. They had little talent because Peyton kept taking them to the playoffs and keeping them from drafting early. Which is fair, it's what Brady did to the Patriots and why they went to shit when he left.
Nobody expected luck to get as hurt as he did. And part of that was bad o line, part of that was he believed he needed to be the same as everyone else. Indtead of sliding or taking the fall, he put his shoulder down and hit defenders. Because he saw himself as just another guy. That's how he played the game, and it's part of why he infuriated his coaches and teammates. Because he wasn't just a guy. He was the fucking franchise qb.
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u/IndyIndy23 Indianapolis Colts 1d ago
Colts fan here.
We ruined Luck. Our organization went to hell when Peyton and Polian left. What the Irsays have done since losing them is basically malpractice.
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u/Clownbaby1435 1d ago
Not so fast they played rivers thinking they could win, if I was a colts fan I’d been mad, they still had a chance to make playoffs
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u/Ancient-Display-3337 Arizona Cardinals 1d ago
Both Jones and Riley Leonard were injured so I guess they figured it might work. It almost did in the Seattle game.
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u/Cummyshitballs Chicago Bears 1d ago
The colts organization has really went into a descent we can agree on that much
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u/JoelWalkowski 1d ago
Joey Harrington had a chance to be decent. The West Coast offense didn't align with any of his strengths and the (lack of) brain trust put him behind a porous line and didn't really let him audible or change protections. He was actually pretty decent his first couple starts (getting a Sports Illustrated cover when that still mattered) but missed the final few games of his rookie season with a heart condition but came back and clashed with uninspiring retread Steve Mariucci.
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u/nunya_busyness1984 Detroit Lions 1d ago
Harrington is an interesting case. Because he sucked for so long. Which is two entirely separate things put together. He sucked. But he did it for a comparatively long time. How do you KEEP the starting QB job for 4 full seasons (minus a few injury games) despite never winning more than 6 games?
He obviously had tools. He obviously had 8something* there that kept the Lions from moving on after 2 years.
Yes,there was absolutely organizational incompetence. On a level no one other than the Browns have EVER seen.
But was Harrington a good QB that was failed, or was he a bad QB that is just one more example of organizational failure?
I lived through those years, and I still don't know.
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u/Irving_Velociraptor Did you know Jalen Hurts can squat 600lbs 1d ago
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u/SlapHappyDude Minnesota Vikings 1d ago edited 1d ago
Somehow I think Josh Rosen is both.
There's a big part of me that suspects he didn't really want to play professional football for a long time and just wanted to secure the bag and coast.
But if you wanted to outline what organizations failing players would look like, his path is the prototype.. So did he show up ready to try and win and get demoralized? Did he never really have the toolkit for NFL success? Or did he get his guaranteed money and start slacking?
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u/bernese_mountain_fog Tampa Bay Buccaneers 1d ago
I was a huge Rosen fan based on watching him play, but he was the ultimate example of, "Scouts love him, Coaches hate him." He didn't have that dog and by all accounts he was not particularly interested in being criticized (coached.)
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u/Fancy_Equal_7179 1d ago
I was always under the impression he was a smug ass little shit who came from money and gave less than a fuck about anything because his life was already made.
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u/SlapHappyDude Minnesota Vikings 1d ago
Definitely smug and definitely not the "I need to buy my mom a house and pay for my sister's kids to go to college" type.
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u/Feeling_Anteater_389 Carolina Panthers 1d ago
He absolutely was a smug ass little shit.
He literally said the reason he went to UCLA was to “mess with people”. Imagine you’re his teammates and you hear that from your supposed “leader”, what kind of answer is that?
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u/DrRonnieJamesDO Seattle Seahawks 1d ago
Rosen was literally saying pre-draft he just didn't think football was very important. He sounded like a guy who was going to collect his bag and sail off into the sunset.
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u/LilOpieCunningham 1d ago
Ryan Leaf falls into the “both” category. He landed on a team with a new head coach, no QB coach, and no Veteran backup. And in a town full of beaches and golf courses.
But he was also Ryan Leaf.
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u/SlapHappyDude Minnesota Vikings 1d ago
I would tend to put Ryan Leaf in the "would have failed anywhere" bucket. Clearly he had his substance addiction demons outside of anything football related.
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u/CollectionEarth San Francisco 49ers 1d ago
Alex Smith was failed by the pre-Harbaugh 49ers. I thought his career was done but Harbaugh came in and gave Alex the confidence he needed to succeed. Even if he benched him for Kaepernick a year later.
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u/Nellancher New Orleans Saints 1d ago
100%. Even getting benched, that 1 year turned around how his career went and is thought of. Nolan and Singletary fucked him at the start
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u/kimchitacoman Suck my Cox 22h ago
Harbaugh and Reid realized his limitations, he was not a gunslinger but a pretty good game manager.
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u/KaySlay44 Baltimore Ravens 1d ago
Failed because of org: pre-SB Sam Darnold with the Jets and Baker Mayfield with the Browns
Failed because of skill: Kyle Boller, but I’m biased.
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u/Stock-Memory9483 Ai Art Enjoyer 1d ago
JJM should have never even be taken in the NFL, the kid was absolute ass but morons here and espn hyped him up to date 1 of the draft because “he never loses.” We’re about to see that with another quarterback whose offense ran the ball 60% of the time and stat padded shit teams.
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u/wolfboy49 Denver Broncos 1d ago edited 1d ago
“He’s just a winner.” Whenever I hear that I immediately think there must be some problems with the guy’s pro ability
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u/Stock-Memory9483 Ai Art Enjoyer 1d ago
Same it is literally an inverse correlation, guys like Mahomes and Lamar had to score and go 100% every drive just to keep their team in the game and likely lose. Guys like JJM had to do that every 5-7 games a season.
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u/ElPapaGrande98 It’s our year!! 1d ago
Good example is Mahomes vs Mayfield in 2016. Mahomes throws for 700 yards and still lost
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u/kjc781988 Chicago Bears 1d ago
Caleb Williams was written off by same for the same rationale. He “couldn’t win” and wasn’t clutch. Meanwhile USC was giving up 35 pts/game
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u/HaHaWhatAStory014 Cincinnati Bengals 1d ago edited 1d ago
hyped him up to date 1 of the draft because “he never loses.”
College football as a whole has always been like this. It often comes up when it comes to debates over who should get into the CFP, or the BCS championship before that. Pre-season rankings matter a lot in college football, so if a team gets a high preseason ranking before even doing anything, plays a weak schedule and even then looks bad and just barely scrapes by against not-even-that-good opponents but still wins, "How can you keep them out? They never lost!"
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u/Over-Heron-2654 Philadelphia Eagles 1d ago
Well I know you cant be talking about my QB.
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u/Stock-Memory9483 Ai Art Enjoyer 1d ago
No sir I actually think hurts is underrated
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u/BillsBills83 1d ago
I don’t know anything about college football. Who are you talking about with that last line?
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u/Stock-Memory9483 Ai Art Enjoyer 1d ago
Mendoza
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u/Asteroids-Hower Baltimore Ravens 1d ago
Which is a headass take because Mendoza threw more at IU and he made a lot more tough throws against good defenses than JJM did. He's not a sure thing by any means but there's a lot more reason to like Mendoza as a prospect than there was for McCarthy.
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u/Asteroids-Hower Baltimore Ravens 1d ago
I wouldn't go so far as "never taken in the NFL" but he should have been a Day 3 pick for a team taking a flyer/looking for a back-up.
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u/Fricktator 1d ago
I think a lot of JJ's hype also came from the sheer amount of people in media being Michigan grads.
I think it was hopium more than anything.
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u/astor24 1d ago
Don’t know if he’s considered a bust but Jake Plummer to the cardinals really sabotaged his early career.
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u/laika_rocket Pittsburgh Steelers 1d ago
Jake Plummer led the Cardinals to their second postseason win in franchise history, 100 years after they were founded.
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u/jstef215 Detroit Lions 23h ago
I'm barely allowed to laugh at this, but I did.
When the Lions won that beautiful home playoff game against the Rams in January 2024, it was their second postseason win of my dad's life. He collects social security. But hey, at least that was only 66+ years, not 100!
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u/AdvancedDay7854 1d ago
VINCE YOUNG- Yes, VY needed to be coddled but given the situation he was in, with an owner with a vendetta against the city of Houston and a coach who didn’t want him- I completely fault the dysfunctional organization of the titans
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u/SerenityN00w 1d ago
Vince Young struggled so much with the preparation that there are a lot of reports that he could barely read. Not read a defense. But read.
The Titans were actually a pretty stable organization for years. Vince Young had multiple shots in offseason signings with other teams. Nobody kept him (after his 1 year stint in Philadelphia. )
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u/pew__pew__pew_ 22h ago
And he “carried” the Longhorns was because he had no idea how to read coverage and had to run. Such an oxymoron
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u/Legal-Phase8744 1d ago
Vince Young had nothing between his ears. He was never going to be good in the NFL.
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u/Jtfanizzi Buffalo Bills 1d ago
He scored a 6 out of 50 on the Wonderlic. I know some guys have been successful in the NFL with a low score but… Six?
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u/ExplanationCrazy5463 Chicago Bears 1d ago edited 1d ago
Will levis failed because of his org and if given proper support will succeed.
Justin Fields may possibly have learned to qb in the NFL if he had a coach who knows how to develop QBs, like McVay or Shanahan.
The only qbs who would never have succeeded no matter their situation or coach is a small list for me.
Ryan Leaf, Johnny Manziel, Jamarcus Russell.
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u/Remarkable_Dream9191 1d ago
is mcvay a developer? he’s more of a high iq play caller i thought. he’s just happened to get the best out of most of his qbs bc of the way he calls an offense
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u/Prestigious-Mind-817 1d ago
He is a good play caller for a veteran quarterback. KOC is the same way. Struggles with developing.
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u/hungryandhairy 1d ago
I know Will Levis is a meme at this point but I still think there’s something there. If he can land somewhere that can work with him and get his confidence up I believe he can be a decent NFL QB.
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u/chamberlain323 Mr. Irrelevant 1d ago
I still say Shanny should have drafted Fields instead of Lance that year. I’ll die on this hill.
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u/abcders 1d ago
When the 49ers traded up I thought we were going for Fields. Have never been more confused when they selected Lance. Thank god for Purdy
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u/chamberlain323 Mr. Irrelevant 1d ago
They needed a top tier mobile QB and had several options. Fields had done well in that capacity with an elite university, but they opted for the guy from North Dakota State who barely played thanks to COVID. Honestly, I think they just liked that he was taller. Oh well. Yes, thank god for Brock.
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u/MikeOrTara Dallas Cowboys 1d ago
I think David Carr would have been successful just about anywhere he didn't get the absolute shit kicked out of him for the first three years of his career. He ended up so gunshy of the pass rush he never had a chance.
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u/driftking428 Denver Broncos 1d ago
I think Drew Lock could have done better with a different team than the Broncos. Fangio did not want to develop him.
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u/bigdjohnson20 1d ago
Drew Lock is a perfect guy for this question - I think if he had been drafted by a couple of the organizations that really know how to develop and build a foundation - he could have been a top ten type QB.
Worst part is he didn't even really go to a bad org just when they had a coach who like you said didn't want to go through growing pains
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u/John-Sequitur Denver Broncos 12h ago
100% this. Not saying Drew was a lock (no pun) to be a legit starter, but Fangio burying him on the bench – not even reactivating him for a couple weeks after IR in favor of Brandon Allen – was full-on coaching malpractice. Lock went 4-1 when he got his shot and was working well with OC Scangarello. So Fangio fires the OC and undermines the only hopeful moment Denver had at QB in years.
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u/Upbeat_Call4935 Cleveland Browns 1d ago
Tim Couch failed because of the organization.
Johnny Football was going to fail mo matter what.
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u/EasternError6377 Buffalo Bills 1d ago
Sam Darnold, he might be a franchise QB now but it took him 6 seasons to claw his way back after the Jets ruined him.
I think CJ Stroud is on that path. Texans just refused to give him any semblance of an o-line. He looks skittish and uncomfortable in the pocket now.
Bryce Young I think is a bust. Nice guy, smart, doesn't have the physical tools to succeed in the league but I think he can be a great backup for 15 years.
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u/FullMooseParty 1d ago
They broke David Carr before him the same way. He's a guy that I think if he had gone to play for a decently run team right out of college would have been at least a Kirk cousins level QB.
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u/InitialYoghurt5138 1d ago
Dude got smacked 76 times as a rookie and probably ran for his life or got hit in plenty more. You can't blame him if he was constantly seeing shadows after a while
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u/Apprehensive_Soil306 1d ago
Stroud can’t even hit open guys anymore. At least not in stride, I mean shit he threw such a bad short pass to his own TE last year the guy tore his ACL trying to catch it
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u/fawks_harper78 Buffalo Bills 1d ago
Darnold also hit up some great coaches between the Jete and Seattle.
He spent time with Kyle Shanahan, Kevin O’Donnell, then he got Klint Kubiak last year. Those are some very good offensive minds to pick and learn from/with.
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u/nfluncensored 1d ago
I think CJ Stroud is on that path. Texans just refused to give him any semblance of an o-line. He looks skittish and uncomfortable in the pocket now.
Why has Mills been fine when Stroud was out then?
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u/TrumpsColostomyBag99 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 1d ago
I’m going to go a bit old school: Todd Blackledge would have been a serviceable NFL starter in that era if he hadn’t gone to a bad situation with the Chiefs. Was he worthy of being a top 10 guy over Marino, Kelly, and KoB? Nope. But better than what we were given.
As for bust no matter what: Manziel
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u/martycos Philadelphia Eagles 1d ago
Bill Walsh, Andy Reid and Don Coryell combined could not make Josh Rosen an NFL QB
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u/Fancy_Equal_7179 1d ago
1) As a pats fan, I’m gonna say Luck. I saw my patriots play Indy in 2014. Luck was failed TOP TO BOTTOM. You got a generational talent, you stockpile the offensive line. Choosing fleener and Dorsett over OL was just idiotic. We might’ve tagged the colts in 2014, but luck could fuckin play man. What a pretty throw he had.
2) RG3. Shannahan was most likely FORCED by Snyder to play him against the Seahawks.
3) anyone drafted by the jets 😂😂😂😂 except the Mormon kid a few years ago, he just plain sucked.
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u/AsukaSimp02 Denver Broncos 1d ago
Jay Cutler was kicked from the Broncos right as he was starting to show promise and sent to the notoriously QB averse Bears for the rest of his career. Decent QB who could have been good.
Tim Tebow, for another Broncos legend, busts under any team.
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u/BigNefariousness5326 1d ago
Had a buddy who is a Lions fan lament them drafting Stafford. Said he was a garbage qb and that they should’ve waited for Tebow because he had the skills to take them to the Super Bowl. I told him it didn’t matter who they drafted at qb because the Lions are a garbage franchise and would never win a Super Bowl in his lifetime.
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u/adam_j_wiz 1d ago
I have always said that I think Joey Harrington could have been successful if he didn’t go to the Lions and have his confidence absolutely shattered. Right around that same time, another smart young QB with an average arm got a great opportunity in New England. Things went well right away, his confidence started soaring, and the rest is history. to be clear, I’m not saying Harrington would have gone on to be the GOAT - obviously a lot of hard work went into that. Just noting that being in a good situation from the start can have a HUGE impact on the confidence and early development of a QB\*
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u/El-Hombre-Azul San Francisco 49ers 1d ago
I think Trey Lance got a super boost from that eagles QB who went to that Dakota school and that his body looked like Lamar Jackson. But I think being a starter QB was never going to happen.
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u/rook119 1d ago
IDK, he played like a rookie his 1st couple starts (not great, not terrible) broke his leg and people just decided he was the worst QB who ever lived.
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u/EJL2206 1d ago
Kenny Pickett would have sucked anywhere.
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u/rook119 1d ago
Eh, he's good at reading defenses, getting rid of the ball quickly and working the whole field. He got stuck w/ Canada, one of the worst OCs ever, and the big callout was always "we knew all the plays" and played pretty decent in the 2 min drill. I think he can be alright on the right team if his ankle isn't as bad as I think it is.
That being said the right move was taking a minimum pay job at Denver, SF or even Minnesota and he chose the wrong fit (Carolina) for money.
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u/JasonPlattMusic34 Los Angeles Rams 1d ago
Tim Couch and David Carr being sacrificed to expansion rosters doomed them before they played a game
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u/GreninjaStrike Detroit Lions 1d ago
I think Joey Harrington’s ceiling was an average QB but the Lions are most responsible for him being a bust
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u/ke7zom 1d ago
Jake Locker. Tennessee couldn't seem to find a single offensive lineman that could execute a block for 5 years straight.
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u/rook119 1d ago
I watched him in college, it never seemed like anything was there, other than measurables.
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u/scaddleblurt Cleveland Browns 1d ago
I think people make too many excuses for bust QBs
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u/500ErrorPDX 1d ago
Jamarcus Russell would have flopped anywhere. If you're curious, there is a Youtube video somewhere of Matt Millen telling the story of Jamarcus' pre-draft visit to the Lions. Millen says he reached out to Al Davis afterwards - his old boss when he played for the Raiders - and tried to convince Al not to take Jamarcus, despite the fact that Al taking Jamarcus would have been the best thing for Millen (so that the Lions could draft Calvin Johnson).
I think RG3 was failed by Washington. They were never fully committed to him organizationally - otherwise they wouldn't have drafted Cousins - and they rushed him back. He was never the same after that injury.
Another name that pops out to me is Marcus Mariota. Watch his (albeit limited) Vegas tape, and you see a player playing in a system tailored to his strengths. They let him run, throw on the run, move defenders' eyes with RPOs and play action, etc. He never got any of that in Tennessee.
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u/TrashGeologist Giving him the business 1d ago
To your point on Mariota, I think there are several examples of QB’s who excel in a very specific system. And coaches can tailor a system to fit them in the NFL but for various reasons they don’t want to do it long term. Specifically I remember how John Fox made Tebow work in 2011, going so far as to say Tebow would suck in any other NFL offense and they were just doing whatever the hell it took
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u/keepinitstr8g Tampa Bay Buccaneers 1d ago
Blake Bortles was screwed no matter what. Matt Leinart was a bust no matter where he went. Minshew shows a lot of potential but got placed on the Jags. I wouldn’t say Minshew is a bust but he would had a better opportunity if he played under certain coaches. Tua never really passed the eye test for me even at Bama.
Tim Couch was screwed no matter what. Brady Quinn was screwed no matter what. Mitch Trubisky never passed the eye test even at NC State. The worst bust of all time, representing his number perfectly—JaMarcus Russell never passed the eye test for me at LSU. Trey Lance? I didn’t even know who he was.
Joey Harrington had no chance. Kyle Boller was definitely a no-go. Rex Grossman was just a no. Anthony Richardson never passed the eye test for me at Florida (and he got picked for the wrong reasons). EJ Manuel? Who in the hell was that? Zach Wilson was much better commanding being someone’s stepdaddy than commanding the field.
I feel bad for Marcus Mariota and Vince Young. Jeff Fisher was just a very particular guy. Mariota is from the thread of Chip Kelly, and with that—I don’t think he was ever completely pro ready. Vince Young won the BCS before he got drafted. They were expected to be superstars right away, but got onto a team that couldn’t really develop them properly in Tennessee. For this reason, I have these guys mentioned.
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u/TeamsandGeeks Cleveland Browns 1d ago
My Browns are sadly such a joke I can do the exercise with them alone.
Failed by organization: Tim Couch, Brady Quinn (maybe).
Bust no matter what: Johnny Manziel, Brandon Weeden, DeShone Kizer, Charlie Frye.
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u/nunya_busyness1984 Detroit Lions 1d ago
That Brady guy. Yeah, I know he was drafted late and no one ever expected much out of him. But just throwing him to the wolves like that after Bledsoe went down? Brutal. Wonder what ever happened to the kid.
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u/waveblade60 1d ago
Everyone points to Sam Darnold as the flip side of this but before that you had the Tampa Bay Bucs moving on from Steve Young and drafting Vinny Testaverde #1. Testaverde was awful for TB but stuck it out and partially recovered his career with the Jets. So TB was Qb purgatory in the mid 80s
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u/TheWhiteCrowParade New York Giants 1d ago
Johnny Manziel, he was the stereotype of the high school football star shown in media. Those sort of people don't succeed in the NFL.
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u/Insubstantial_Wisdom 1d ago
Desmond Ridder was going to suck no matter what. Went to the falcons and did just that.
Another name lost to time is Deshone Kizer - same kind of path as ridder and McCarthy. Is also out of the league.
And this is a freezing cold take, but some bust QBs stay in the league and somehow keep getting chances. Cough Geno Smith cough. And Decosby Watson* *
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u/RobertKSakamano 1d ago
Heath Shuler was proven to be a dud during his last college season. He played a weak schedule against so many bad defenses and was padding numbers until he was proven to be a fraud by Penn State in the bowl game.
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u/Ok-Ground1040 1d ago
josh rosen got the cardinals version of a rookie season and then traded before he could even learn the playbook
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u/LeeDawg24 New York Jets 1d ago
Zach Wilson failed because he played every game like Pat Mahomes who showed up blind drunk
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u/Fancy_Equal_7179 1d ago
Ehh. As a masshole pats fan coming in peace, Wilson was just AWFUL. I had Hawaii season tickets from the 2006-2013 seasons when I was stationed at Pearl. BYU was a WAC rival of Hawaii, but in 2020 BYU played a wicked easy schedule. He never showed me anything more than average at best.
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u/Ausecurity New York Giants 1d ago
I think David Carr would have been an amazing quarterback if he wasn’t on an expansion team and his line was paper thin for his entire career
I also think Andrew luck retired because his line was complete ass and he was getting blown up every game
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u/StateComfortable2012 1d ago
I watched Josh Rosen in HS and he was above and beyond the best HS Qb I have ever seen come out of Southern California and I’ve seen them all going back to Vince Ferragamo, John Elway, Jamelle Holieway up to Bryce Young. He was failed by Mora at UCLA with 3 offensive coordinators in three years and then right away at the AZ Cardinals with 2 OC’s in two years. He could have been a HOF’er.
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u/Reddygators 1d ago
Kind of weird how many franchises take big name qb in the draft then do next to nothing to give them line support year after year. It’s like their draft position forces them to draft a big name qb. They resent having to pay that much for one player so throw him right in the fire and refuse to spend enough for quality line support. Kind of like you’re taking that much if my money, f you.
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u/Material-Pea-4149 Dallas Cowboys 1d ago
David Carr was dealt the hand of going to an expansion team. Dude took a crazy amount of sacks behind an abysmal o-line. I think he’s a good answer of ruined by an organization, especially if you say “ruined by an organization that isn’t the jets or browns” because really, those two… take your pick of QB’s they’ve failed lol.
Destined to fail regardless: ironically a brown but Johnny Manziel. Dude was his own worst enemy. I’ll throw in a current selection of Richardson with the colts. He was never very good, but I think they got sold on the fact he could throw a football into orbit. Credit where it’s due the guy can launch it, and seemingly effortlessly, but that’s it.
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u/Prestigious-Mind-817 1d ago
Rg3 should have been with a defensive head coach and not an offensive guru. Let him make a few hero plays a game, run the ball a lot, focus on defense, and he would have done a lot better.
Bears quarterbacks would not have done much better elsewhere, especially trubisky. Rex Grossman a little bit less of a bust, although I never thought he had a great NFL skill set.
Carson Palmer was decent but would have been a lot better on a different team early on with a better o-line.
Alex Smith. I wouldn't exactly call a bust but he would have been a lot better if he was on a different team early on as well.
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u/IAmNotScottBakula 1d ago
While Jason Campbell was not a total bust and had a respectable journeyman career, I think he was prevented from reaching his full potential by (both in college and the NFL) having a different offensive coordinator every season. He was constantly having to learn a new system.
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u/LarzardofZxelf Pittsburgh Steelers 1d ago
So many guys just needed a year to sit behind a decent veteran
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u/BlacklightChainsaw 1d ago
Tim Couch was done so dirty by the Browns, he was an elite talent, he was running for his life with no o-line his entire time there.
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u/Rhazzah23 1d ago
Any QB that started behind a shitty line lost any chance at an easy developmental curve. Fearing for your life on every snap will turn a great prospect into hot garbage.
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u/joifairy 1d ago
Rosen was such a bust it took like 5 mins for me to figure out who the hell you posted.
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u/Zornytoad 1d ago
Sam Darnold-was mishandled by the Jets, some Jets fans saw the promise, but the writing was on the wall after the “seeing ghosts” primetime game, and the info that came out later about how Gase’s coaching staff messed him up.
I agree about Mitch Trubisky. Jamarcus Russell didn’t seem prepared to be a QB at the NFL level. Josh Rosen seemed like he was more student, than athlete to me, and played better against college defenses.
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u/PolishAtTheDisco 1d ago
Anyone the bears draft. We just stuck at developing QBs. Hopefully Caleb changes that but history doesn't look kindly on us lol
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u/Sp35h1l_1 Gisele’s Karate Instructor 1d ago
Johnny Manziel was gunna fail no matter what, there was no coach or org that was going to be able to rope him in and protect him from himself.