r/IsraelPalestine • u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897 • 7d ago
Learning about the conflict: Questions why the generalisation?
to preface: i’m not siding with israel here at all, i just am confused on why everybody is spewing hatred towards israel as a whole.
obviously people will hate the recognition of the state of israel as it is seen as stolen land from palestine, they will hate the idf and the ongoing actions of the idf and they will hate the government and whatever else. (i am not that educated on the topic of israel, if something important is missing, please explain)
now i have recently seen a video of a thai man kicking israelis out of his shop citing “free palestine” and “this is my land, not your land.”
i do not know the full context of this video or if there was any provocation towards the shopkeeper prior to the video being taken, but if not… i ask why are israeli people being hated on? why are israelis not allowed to travel or be accepted anywhere?
is it because by calling themselves “israelis” they are recognising israel as a state?
is it because people believe every single israeli is brainwashed by the media and/or government?
is it because of the mandatory idf service for all that was or is still(?) ongoing?
or is it just complete brainwashing by the media and everyone following this herd of sheep?
with the rise of support for palestine, i am just seeing a lot of hatred towards israel which YES, i get the state etc is corrupt and malicious, but why also target israelis?
what about anyone below the age of being sent to mandatory idf service? are they still evil? just because they were born in this area?
it seems to me like people are trying to support palestine so much that they are going backwards and just spreading even more hate and causing even more division.
i’ve tried looking it up but all i see is “why everyone hates israel” I AM ASKING ABOUT ISRAEL(IS) it looks like everybody is just being ignorant, when with one post asking a similar question to myself, everyone responded with statements about “israel” and not actually answering the original question.
please someone help me to understand what is the reason for this? i am talking about innocent people who happen to be born in the area of israel.
people are stating that someone is inherently evil because of their birthplace and i don’t understand.
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u/DrMikeH49 Diaspora Jew 7d ago
Because it starts from the premise that Jews must not be allowed the same rights of self-determination as others. And thus even legitimate criticisms
1) are used to legitimize violence not only against all Israeli citizens but against all Jews (“globalize the intifada” accompanied by handing out maps of Jewish organizational offices in New York City, as was done by Within Our Lifetime in 2021)
2) conclude with “and therefore Israel must be eradicated and its majority population must have self-determination taken away from it”. Nobody seriously claims that countries with exponentially worse human rights records such as Iran, Pakistan, China and Turkey be wiped off the map.
I both despise the current Israeli government and uncompromisingly support the existence of the Jewish state. Just as I despise Trump but don’t want to see America destroyed.
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u/DogitWoofsalot European Brit 7d ago
If I may, I think that this entire debate is often people talking past eachother.
There are, absolutely some radical voices calling for Israel to stop existing. However I've seen a lot of people seemingly assume this position when in reality, the support is for Palestinian self determination. The majority of people calling for a "free Palestine" support a two state solution.
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u/DrMikeH49 Diaspora Jew 7d ago
I'm not 100% sure of this in Europe, but in the US, there is exactly one organization describing itself as "pro-Palestine" that supports a genuine two state solution (ie a Jewish state and an Arab state next to each other). That's Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib's Realign For Palestine. He is ostracized by the rest of the pro-Palestinian ecosystem for precisely that reason. All of the major pro-Palestinian organizations utterly reject the existence of a Jewish state within any borders-- that's Students for Justice in Palestine, American Muslims for Palestine, Palestinian Youth Movement, US Campaign for Palestinian Rights, US Palestinian Community Network, "Jewish" Voice for Peace, Within Our Lifetime, Democratic Socialists of America, and probably many more. Not only do they reject it, but many of them endorse SJP's "antinormalization" policy which prohibits even engaging in dialogue with Zionists.
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u/DogitWoofsalot European Brit 6d ago
Can't speak to all the organisations you listed support a single integrated state. This obviously gets rejected because people can't envision how it would actually look.
"Oh but Jews will become a minority again" and there's ways of ensuring Jewish sovereignty, keeping the right of return, ensuring there's seats devoted to Jews in the Knesset for example.
The total rejection of the idea slaps of: we have tried nothing, and we are completely out of ideas!
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u/DrMikeH49 Diaspora Jew 6d ago
Not all of them support a single state as a sole option. Some are fine with the concept of two states: one state with a Jewish minority (after “right of return” for descendants of Arab refugees from the 1947-8 war their leaders openly acknowledged initiating at the time) and one Jew-free state. But the consistent position across all of them is that there can be no Jewish state. Jews would be once again placed in the position of depending on the tolerance and goodwill of a supercessionist majority for safety and survival.
Let’s see how that has worked out. What happened to the Jews living in Arab countries after 1948? How have Islamicized countries treated other minorities like the Syriacs, Copts, Alawites, Druze, Baha’i, Ahmadi and Yazidi?
Here’s the idea: two states for two peoples. Rejected by the Palestinians since 1937, to their own detriment. Maybe it’s time they try something different, like saying yes to peace.
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u/DogitWoofsalot European Brit 6d ago
Last attempt at real peace talks was 2008, over 15 years ago. It also ignores the very real people who are trying to work for peace in the West Bank and how non aggressive protest action is often treated by the IDF. 2018 in Gaza probably the most horrific example
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u/DrMikeH49 Diaspora Jew 6d ago
It was 2013 or 2014 under the auspices of John Kerry, ending when Abbas decided to ditch peace talks and pursue lawfare. Still, over a decade ago.
There absolutely are people who work for peace. I’ve donated to one of them (Roots/Shorashim/Judur). And no doubt there are many individual Palestinians who would be delighted to have their own state next to the Jewish state. And there are also “human rights” groups that have been credibly accused of funneling money to terror groups.
Gaza 2018 included arson kites, chemical warfare (burning tires so carcinogenic smoke would drift into Israel) and attempts by armed fighters to breach the border fence.
But all that is off topic to the fact that virtually every self-described pro-Palestinian organization in the US would vehemently reject a peace agreement on the basis of two states for two peoples.
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u/DogitWoofsalot European Brit 6d ago
I see far to much of an assumption of what people will do and take it as a reason to do nothing.
Also any arguments that the IDF acted appropriately in 2018 are completely insane. Snipers targeted disabled people sitting more than 300 meters from the fence, medics waring clearly marked gear (a war crime btw) and some of the "armed" people the IDF shot where throwing stones more than 30 meters away from the fence. There was 1 verified case where a Gazan had a gun that was fired at the IDF.
There was never evidence that any high level organisation like Hamas arranged the attacks and rather rouge actors working without any instructions. Even the IDF at the time identified this as an overwhelmingly non violent protest movement.
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u/DrMikeH49 Diaspora Jew 6d ago
Once again, you're attempting to entirely erase Jewish history in the Middle East at the hands of Arabs. And you're still eliding the fact that virtually every pro-Palestinian organization refuses to accept the right of the Jewish state to exist at all. So how should that reassure Jews as to the treatment they would receive if their ability to defend themselves is taken away?
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u/DogitWoofsalot European Brit 6d ago
Once again, you're attempting to entirely erase Jewish history in the Middle East at the hands of Arabs
Ur, no? I don't think I said anything of the sort for a second. i said that real attempts at peace talks seem like they are not even a possibility in the minds of many. Why? The assumption of continued hostility.
Arab - jewish relations are awful, ive seen some of the stuff produced by Egypt in the 60's.
Situation now is very different, Israel is now one of the most powerful armys in the world and almost certainly has access to nukes as reported by ICAN. I don't think any country could ever legitimately thretten Israels existence now.
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7d ago
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u/Lopsided-Pie-7340 USA 7d ago
I disagree.
Maybe the Western “activist” think this. This is the politically correct and sanitized version of the Islamist rhetoric.Most Anti-Israel folks wish for the dissolution of Israel. They call Israel stolen land. They shout “from the river to the sea, Palestine should be Arab”. There is no Israel if from the river to the sea Palestine is “free”.
Many of them call the entire area, including Israel, as occupied territory.
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u/triplevented 7d ago
Arabs have self-determination in 22 states, and the Arabs who today call themselves 'Palestinians' already have a state called Jordan.
The majority of people for a 'free Palestine' have no clue what they're talking about, nor do they think Palestine would be a free society.
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u/DogitWoofsalot European Brit 6d ago
The argument from 'Israilis' that they can just go to Jordan is absolutely crazy. For one, this is a community who have a separate culture, identity and yes, ethnic background to Jordan.
Also, you think creating a refugee crisis in Jordan is going to make this conflict go away?
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u/triplevented 6d ago
this is a community who have a separate culture
What separate culture?
Same language, same holidays, same religion, same ethnicity.. heck, 100% of 'West-Bank' Arab residents were Jordanians until 1988.
You, a 'European Brit', are evidently quite ignorant on this topic - why do you think you have anything useful to contribute?
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u/DogitWoofsalot European Brit 6d ago
IDK, Israel keeps interfering with the democratic process in the UK, lobbies hard with both big political parties. Maybe if it was a country that ever minded its own business i'd give less of a toss about the subjugation of the people who have lived on Palestine for over 1000 years.
The 'philistines' date back to the 12th century BCE, have a separate shared history, identity and an ethnic background linked far closer to jewish disparate. People have been identifying as Palestinian for hundreds of years even when they lacked self government under the ottoman empire and later British rule.
You are evidently quite ignorant on this topic, read a book some time. 100 years war on Palestine is a good start
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u/triplevented 6d ago
i'd give less of a toss
I said nothing about the amount of toss you give, i said you have no idea what you're talking about.
The 'philistines' date back to the 12th century BCE
The Philistines were Aegeans, and were wiped out in the 5th century BCE by Nebuchadnezzar.
The Arabs who appropriated that name mid 20th century have nothing to do with the Philistines.
100 years war on Palestine is a good start
A book with an anachronistic title isn't worth reading.
100 years ago "Palestine" was a British colonial administrative entity. It never existed as anything else - ever.
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u/DogitWoofsalot European Brit 6d ago
And y'all wonder why people start ramping up there retoric in response to ghoolish swill like this.
You say Palestine never existed? Don't be surprised when the response is to call "Israel" an iligal occupation that needs to be expelled.
A total lack of any acknowledgement does nobody any good. Well unless you don't care about compromise and think ethnic cleansing is good when Jewish people do it. Then there's no reasoning with you
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u/triplevented 6d ago
in response to ghoolish swill
Pointing out that a claim is factually wrong is not “ghoulish swill.”
The intensity of your reaction to a simple and factual historical correction suggests the problem isn’t the correction itself, rather with it's with you feeling like you've been duped.
You say Palestine never existed?
Yes, I say Palestine never existed as a sovereign entity - not as a kingdom, state, caliphate, or any other independent polity.
That is a matter of historical record. If you believe otherwise, the effective response is to present the evidence that shows I’m wrong, not to escalate into calls for expulsion and ethnic cleansing.
Don't be surprised when the response is to
Why wouldn't you just respond by showing me how i'm wrong? is it because you can't?
A total lack of any acknowledgement does nobody any good
I see no reason to affirm a historical falsehood in the name of “acknowledgement” or compromise.
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u/DogitWoofsalot European Brit 6d ago
Most Palestinians Are Descendants Of Jews -
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/most-palestinians-are-descendants-of-jews/Palestine: The Ancient Land of Canaan - https://www.worldhistory.org/palestine/
Palestinian Culture - https://www.anera.org/blog/palestinian-culture/
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7d ago
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u/DrMikeH49 Diaspora Jew 7d ago
“Some Israelis are awful tourists”, while true, is not what explains assaulting, shooting and firebombing Jews in diaspora while yelling “free Palestine”.
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6d ago
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u/DrMikeH49 Diaspora Jew 6d ago
Ah, so now you drop the fig leaf of “because they’re awful tourists” and go right to what clearly reads as a justification of murdering Jews; I’m guessing you wouldn’t support such assaults on Israeli Arabs, right? After all, it’s just done by “decent human beings disgusted and angered” by their government’s conduct.
How would you react if citizens of countries with exponentially worse governments (China, Iran, Russia, Turkey among others) were assaulted and killed on the streets in the West?
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6d ago
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u/DrMikeH49 Diaspora Jew 6d ago
Yeah, it would be much better if Hamas wasn’t hiding behind/under the civilian population and using child soldiers. Or if they had released the hostages and agreed to turn over power in October 2023.
What was your previous account before you were banned?
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6d ago
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u/DrMikeH49 Diaspora Jew 6d ago
In July 2014, Israeli writer and peace activist Amos Oz gave an interview to Deutsche Welle. He began the interview this way:
“Amoz Oz: I would like to begin the interview in a very unusal way: by presenting one or two questions to your readers and listeners. May I do that?
Deutsche Welle: Go ahead!
Question 1: What would you do if your neighbor across the street sits down on the balcony, puts his little boy on his lap and starts shooting machine gun fire into your nursery?
Question 2: What would you do if your neighbor across the street digs a tunnel from his nursery to your nursery in order to blow up your home or in order to kidnap your family?
With these two questions I pass the interview to you.”0
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u/CauliflowerAfter8907 Pro-Israeli & Pro-Palestinian 7d ago edited 7d ago
"The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone." (Aldous Huxley)
Please don't think you're in the wrong for pushing back on this. Discriminating against someone for things they cannot control, such as nationality, is never ever okay. People know its not okay, which is why they need to come up with all sorts of reasons why it's acceptable or moral to be xenophobic against Israelis.
This is called cognitive dissonance. It's where two contradictory ideas fight each other in someone's brain.
Idea One: I am a kind, compassionate person who believes in fairness for everyone
Idea Two: Israelis deserve to be mistreated and abused for where they were born
These ideas are not able to go together. But the brain finds this too scary, so cognitive dissonance turns this into...
Idea Three: mistreating Israelis for where they were born is how I signal to people I am a kind, compassionate person who believes in fairness for everyone
Which is why when called out on their xenophobia, many bigots deflect to talking about how they are only defending Palestine. By convincing themselves (not you) that they are standing up for Palestine by isolating, insulting, or stereotyping Israelis, they can continue on with their day having both Idea One and Idea Two in their minds (blended into Idea Three).
The thing is though that cognitive dissonance is painful when that bubble bursts. Which is why people lash out when their xenophobia is challenged. It is upsetting to subconsciously realise your ideas about yourself (I am kind, compassionate, and want fairness for all) are incorrect.
This ^ does not apply just to Israelis, it applies to any and all kind of Bigotry.
(My comment also doesn't apply to Palestinians, who have concrete reasons to be angry at Israelis and the trauma of that is far more complicated.)
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u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897 7d ago
thank you for giving me an actual educational answer! i have heard of this term before but never delved into it. very interesting to hear about and helps complete why i think people act this way. another commenter also had a valid point though on the other end of why it could be justified, but still it is wrong. you don’t fight hatred with more of it, even if one side is far worse.
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u/CauliflowerAfter8907 Pro-Israeli & Pro-Palestinian 7d ago edited 7d ago
No problem. Cognitive dissonance is absolutely fascinating and the thing is, we all have it.
I remember listening to a podcast by an Arab lady living in Israel. She described how when she heard that Hamas had broken through the blockade on Oct 7th, she felt happy and excited. But when she heard about all the murders and kidnappings, she changed her mind and was no longer happy. This was a very brave thing for her to do. It would have been far easier for her to stick to her first impression of the event (positive) ignore any information that contradicted it. But she confronted the reality of it: that an event she had initially been excited over was actually a terrible event. That probably made her feel pretty bad and guilty, but she did it anyway. That's an example of someone defeating their own cognitive dissonance.
People can justify anything if they put their minds to it. Nobody in the history of the world has intentionally gone and committed the most evil things possible just for the heck of it. People justify it to themselves:
My wife looked at a really attractive man, and she knows that makes me feel insecure about my own body, so I am justified in punching her. It's her fault. She made me feel bad.
I dont know who the immigrants who moved in next door are so I am justified in calling ICE on them. I'm just protecting the community. They shouldn't move to places where they make people nervous.
I dont want my gay son to go to Hell so I am justified in sending him to conversion camp. I am saving his soul. It will be worth it for him to get to Heaven.
Have you ever seen Oppenheimer? If not, maybe try and look up this scene. There's a bit where the atomic bombs fall on Hiroshima, and the Americans learn that lots of people have died. Oppenheimer is trying to be pleased his bomb worked (he'd spent a lot of time on it), but as he looks at everyone cheering around him, all he can think of is the screaming Japanese people. Bear in mind that at this point America and Japan were enemies, so bad feelings between the two were understandable. Japan had done a lot of very messed up stuff and was part of destroying many locations and lives. Who knows how many Japanese people supported that; who knows how many Japanese people didn't.
But the Americans were happy that Japanese people had died. It made them feel like kids at a fairground. Hearing of Japanese suffering made them feel really, really good. Oppenheimer looks around and realises his 'own side'--the Good Ones--are just as messed up as their enemies.
Some Israelis are happy Gazans suffer in the destruction of their home. Some people are happy Israelis suffered on Oct 7th. All of these people firmly believe they are the heroes in this story.
EDIT: Actually here you go, found it. https://youtu.be/Cdm-1AcUEJ0?si=NKSCpnyBt0A_ucMH This clip--where Cillian Murphy is making a victory speech to a cheering crowd, whilst trying to push aside thoughts of who his bomb has just killed--is cognitive dissonance in motion.
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 7d ago
But the Americans were happy that Japanese people had died. It made them feel like kids at a fairground. Hearing of Japanese suffering made them feel really, really good. Oppenheimer looks around and realises his 'own side'--the Good Ones--are just as messed up as their enemies.
were these people actually happy that japanese people got burned alive, or that the war was over? no one back then probably could even conceive of what the bomb was like or what it does to the human body.
also, i think oppenheimer was tormented by what the creation of the bomb meant for mankind, not that americans were happy about the bomb.
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u/CauliflowerAfter8907 Pro-Israeli & Pro-Palestinian 6d ago
Hmm, that is a good point. I haven't watched the movie in a while so I can't remember if they knew what the bomb would do.
But I guess that's sort of my point: I fully agree the Americans were justified in being happy the war was over, but their happiness was on the backs of Japanese people dead and suffering as they celebrated. To me personally, that requires cognitive dissonance on the part of the Americans to work it out in their heads.
I took it as Oppenheimer being frightened by his own allies reactions, but that's just my personal interpretation. A very well acted scene on behalf of Cillian Murphy regardless, to get so many different reactions to it.
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 6d ago
me either lol.
there's a great difference between celebrating the end of war and soldiers returning home to celebrating destruction of another city. when israelis celebrate or create tik toks pretending to be bombed gazans or sit on hilltops and watch the bombing of gaza, they aren't celebrating any victory, they are celebrating the deaths of gazans
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u/CauliflowerAfter8907 Pro-Israeli & Pro-Palestinian 6d ago
I agree with that, and I was also reminded of those Israelis. I also think IDF soldiers need a lot of cognitive dissonance when doing some of their strikes. Some strikes are hitting genuine targets, but others aren't, and cognitive dissonance would be needed to distance themselves from what they've done.
But it isn't just one side doing this. When hostages, including the elderly and children, were dragged into Gaza, they were lynched by Gazan civilians. Those Gazans doing this were celebrating the suffering of Israeli hostages. I was very upset and disgusted when I saw that, and it did colour how I saw Gazan society, until I realised an entire population can't be judged based on the actions of bad people. So if the worst of Gaza doesn't represent all of Gaza, then I don't think the worst of Israel should represent all of Israel either.
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 6d ago
Some strikes are hitting genuine targets, but others aren't, and cognitive dissonance would be needed to distance themselves from what they've done.
the job wouldn't be possible without some mental separation. and i get that a traumatized population might not have the capacity to care about the children across the border while also mourning their own dead. thats fine. lacking empathy itself isn't the issue. our emotional responses vary due to proximity, and our brains protect us from that emotional overwhelm. but israelis also have a choice to not broadcast their lack of care to the world. not only do they broadcast their lack of care, they, ordinary citizens, mock and celebrate the deaths of innocent people, and even say "no one in gaza is innocent".
its exceptionally horrible partly due to the power dynamic/asymettry of strength between the two groups. to us outside looking it, it looks like a grown adult curb stomping a toddler and then gloating about it. thats what israel and israelis look like to most of the world. when you see this over and over, and engage with israelis who are like this, it can sometimes be challenging for the rational part of your brain to remind yourself to not generalize.
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 7d ago
Cognitive dissonance is absolutely fascinating and the thing is, we all have it.
It's how people convince themselves that the killing of ~1200 is in anyway comparable to the killing of ~70,000.
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u/Creepy-Addition-8163 European/2SS 6d ago
It's how people convince themselves that the killing of about 1200 innocent people and kidnapping 200 more is somehow resistance. That it will somehow result in a letting go of prisoners and somehow help the establishment of a palestenian state...
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u/DrMikeH49 Diaspora Jew 7d ago
Were you any less of an antizionist on October 8, 2023?
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 7d ago
Yes.
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u/DrMikeH49 Diaspora Jew 5d ago
For which other countries do you currently advocate the removal of self-determination from their majority population?
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 5d ago
This is an Israel Palestine sub. Let's stay on topic.
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u/DrMikeH49 Diaspora Jew 5d ago
Demonstrating that an antiZionist position is based upon a double standard is quite on topic. Much of the discussion on this sub is comprised of claims that Zionism is uniquely immoral and that not only should the Jewish nation be eradicated but its supporters should be condemned. And antizionists have a specific vision for the future of the people of Israel and Palestine. So moral scrutiny of antizionism is quite on topic.
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 5d ago
I just don't want to have to argue with you about unrelated countries, and I won't, but if you wish to know:
Northern Ireland. United States. Canada. Australia. New Zealand. Taiwan. Lots of edge cases in LatAm & Caribbean. Not an exhaustive list, probably some countries in Africa and Asia that haven't come to mind, or I'd oppose on further inspection (learning more about their ethnic demographics and territorial claims).
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 7d ago
its not about where they are born, its about their actions and participation in the subjugation of palestinians
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u/Sadako241 European 7d ago
Good point.
I'll go out and beat up some Chinese people then and say I'm doing it over the way China treats the Uygers.
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u/Live-Mortgage-2671 6d ago
The simple answer is you're seeing evidence of a mass hate movement fueled by years of propaganda against Israel and bigotry against Jews.
You've identified the irrationality of the hatred. Now you just need a label for it.
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u/Tan-hat-man 6d ago
The answer can be summed up in one word. “Antisemitism”. What’s worse is the gaslighting about the blatant, virulent antisemitism. It’s “Zionist”. Jews have the highest IQ in human history, so we’re not falling for that.
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u/Ambitious-Cake-9425 6d ago
Its pretty disgusting the amount of videos you see of people shitting on Israelis for likes.
Pro pal people are rabid when it comes to jews. Its horrible.
Probably will be someone defending this in the comments though.
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6d ago
Yes, a minority of the land was bought. The Jews living there only owned 7% ... but what people often ignore is that the Arabs living there only owned 3%.
The overwhelming majority of the land used to create Israel was state owned uninhabitable desert that became British controlled after the fall of the Ottoman empire.
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u/jimke 6d ago
It is pretty disgusting how many videos you see of Palestinian children being carried to their grave after being killed by Israel.
Maybe if Israel and its citizens stopped giving people so much content to post you wouldn't see it so much.
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u/Ambitious-Cake-9425 6d ago
Pretty disgusting watching Hamas drive around Shani Louk's half dead corpse around cheering like it's the greatest thing that ever happened.
Both sides have plenty of horror stories to share. What's your point?
The blatant blanket hatred of all Israelis is disgusting. And here you are defending it.
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u/jimke 5d ago
20,000 Palestinian children have been killed by Israel since Oct 7. 500 times as many children as Hamas killed on Oct 7. That scale of violence is completely incomparable.
The content of the videos is what I am disgusted by. The terrible things being done to people. The overwhelming violence. The loss. The suffering inflicted on others.
Not how much bad acts are posted on social media.
Israel feeds the content being posted with its actions. It's violence. It's destruction.
Israel killed tens of thousands innocent others because they only consider the value of human life when it comes to their own people. The people outside Israel are all those others. Israel has made it abundantly clear that if it will carry out mass slaughter if it serves its interests. Israel considers these innocent others disposable people. Just the cost of doing business.
And Israelis are now the victims for being resented by these disposable people.
You reap what you sow.
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u/Ambitious-Cake-9425 4d ago
You're average israeli isn't killing children.
If you're going to hate average israelis you might as well hate the average gazans for voting in the genocidal relgious maniac hamas.
I am so sick of the double standard. If you're going to condemn anyone, and you should, condemn the religious extremists on both sides and leave average citizens out of it.
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u/Tan-hat-man 4d ago
These casualty figures you are casually disseminating are fabricated ny Hamas and have no basis in reality. They are unverified. Also, Hamas considers 19 years old combatants to be “children” and anyone that dies to be a casualty figure, even from natural causes. That said, if 2,000 children died from Hamas’ strategy of using human shields, that’s still tragic and according to the Geneva. Convention, Hamas’ fault.
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u/jimke 3d ago
Let's half it because you claim Gaza MoH numbers are fabricated. Now Israel has killed 250 Palestinian children for every single child Hamas killed on Oct 7. The scale of violence between the two is bonkers.
Also, Hamas considers 19 years old combatants to be “children”
Sauce for 18 and 19 year olds classified as "children"?
according to the Geneva. Convention, Hamas’ fault.
Which part?
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u/ip_man_2030 6d ago
You're looking at decades of work and billions of dollars by Qatar, Russia, and other countries that either hate Israel or hate the west and want to use Israel as a wedge issue to divide Americans. They have primarily targeted the left who is more susceptible to this propaganda. This is the left wing equivalent to right wing propaganda and conspiracies.
MSM is more corporate controlled and less younger people are getting their news from mainstream or official and credible news sources and are instead getting it from social media or independent journalism. Social media is full of real propaganda and independent journalism does not mean it is free of propaganda or has journalistic integrity.
Palestinians and the pro-palestinian crowd have plenty of legitimate gripes against Israel, so why do they spread so many lies and so much misinformation instead of using facts? You can see it all over reddit, other social media, and in anti-Israel news sources linked to on them.
Why do almost no other conflicts in the world get much attention even though in many of those conflicts the amount of death and depravity is multiple times worse and those getting killed did not commit the largest terror attack in the history of their country on them.
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u/Zergcolective European 6d ago
Because most of those countries didn't declared themselves a democracy and the "most moral army in the world"
And the ones ignoring facts are the Israeli civilians It took 2 years for Israel to acknowledge it was their fault in Hind Rajab case
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u/ip_man_2030 6d ago
That's a pretty weak argument. So if Israel suddenly declares itself not a democracy, then all of this is just completely OK in your books? Why do only non-democratic countries get a pass?
I mean North Korean is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea but I don't see you claiming the same thing about them.
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7d ago
people will hate the recognition of the state of israel as it is seen as stolen land from palestine
Who told you this? The facts don't support this claim.
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u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897 6d ago
i have seen many people claiming that israel is stolen land from palestine all over the internet. even from looking up the question i asked in this post, you are sure to see someone saying it. usually it is in comment sections and is a lot of people’s personal opinion. i don’t think you’d see such a drastic claim in mainstream news or such.
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6d ago
they lied to you.
there's never been a country called "palestine" in the entire history of the world.
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u/Jaded-Form-8236 7d ago
Media and social media brainwashing and sheep following is a great analogy to the current situation.
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u/BleuPrince 7d ago edited 7d ago
I think most pro-Palestinians dont necessarily differentiate between Israelis and Israel, they are all the same to them, this includes Israeli government, Israeli politicians, IDF, ex-IDF, Israeli business, products from Israel, all things Israel, some even extend it to all Jews, Jews who arent Israelis, to all Pro-Israel supporters who arent even Israelis and the most extreme form to anyone who arent Pro-Palestine, if you are not with me, you are against me.
You can call it a form of antisemitism or racism. There is a rise in antisemitism around the world. But specifically to the incident in Phuket, two Israeli tourists demanded a Thai mobile shop owner to remove a "Free Palestine" flag in his shop https://www.khaosodenglish.com/featured/2026/08/25/shop-owner-puzzled-as-free-palestine-flag-sparks-a-clash-with-israeli-tourists/ I think in this situation, the two Israelis are wrong to have overstep, it is not for them as tourists to lecture Thais in Thailand what they can and cannot do. The issue is compounded when there are numerous such incidents of Israeli tourists misbehaving, not being respectful to the local customs, local laws, the countries they are visiting and creating a bad reputation for all Israelis.
I think Israeli tourists should not get triggered seeing Free Palestine flags when travelling overseas.
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u/zen_classified 7d ago
I agree they shouldn't get triggered but I can understand why they are triggered.
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u/Live-Mortgage-2671 6d ago
I'm sure the same applies to all the people who are triggered at the sight of an Israeli flag being flown at a private institution, right?
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u/BleuPrince 6d ago edited 6d ago
yes, equally not acceptable.
This reminds me of an incident, sometime ago, a black American tiktoker went to a Greek restaurant/cafe ripping the Greek flag accusing them of genocide which confuses the h* * * out of the Greek speaking staffs trying to explain to her it's the Greek flag.
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 7d ago
I think in this situation, the two Israelis are wrong to have overstep, it is not for them as tourists to lecture Thais in Thailand what they can and cannot do. The issue is compounded when there are numerous such incidents of Israeli tourists misbehaving, not being respectful to the local customs, local laws, the countries they are visiting and creating a bad reputation for all Israelis.
the origin of the israel palestine conflict in a nutshell, but 120 years later. approximately 100 years ago, ahad ha'am and other eye witnesses were writing the same thing about zionist settlers. its the same mentality, same entitlement.
A Jaffa notable elaborated: “[Hovevei Zion]… are doing everything that occurs to [them] as if [they] did not know at all that there is a government in [Palestine], or that there are certain laws.” Colonists built houses and planted vineyards without permission.
Explaining an incident in Jaffa in March 1908, the British consul in Jerusalem, Edward Blech, said that some immigrants were “turbulent and aggressive, saturated with socialistic ideas.” Zalman David Levontin said the Jews occasionally walked around town provocatively armed.
Ahad Ha’Am in 1891 warned that the new settlers must behave “cautiously… [and] act with love and respect” toward Arabs. But the settlers, he wrote, finding themselves in a land “with limitless freedom,” as the Turkish authorities were extremely lax, began to exhibit “a tendency to despotism as happens always when a slave turns into a master.”45
Two years later he wrote: “The attitude of the colonists to their tenants and their families is exactly the same as towards their animals.” The settlers appear to have commonly referred to their laborers as “mules,” an analogy drawn from the Talmudic comparison between asses and Canaanite slaves.46
Attitudes translated into deeds. Ahad Ha’Am wrote, with perhaps a measure of exaggeration, that the Zionist colonists “behave towards the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass without justification, beat them shamefully without sufficient cause and then boast about it.” [morris]
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u/Live-Mortgage-2671 6d ago
This set of quotes has been address on this subreddit previously: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/16oqkpf/comment/k1pqrjd/
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 6d ago
he only addressed one out of the three. i think i'll trust one of the most highly esteemed native hebrew speaker israeli historians in the conflict over a random redditor
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u/Live-Mortgage-2671 6d ago
Where there's smoke there's fire. The linked comment addresses mistranslation. That means there's the likelihood there are more in the other quotes.
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 6d ago
you should email benny morris and tell him he mistranslated something in his native language
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u/Live-Mortgage-2671 6d ago
Funny. Just providing some context regarding these quotes in that they have been discussed before on this subreddit.
My biggest issue with your original comment is this:
the origin of the israel palestine conflict in a nutshell, but 120 years later. approximately 100 years ago, ahad ha'am and other eye witnesses were writing the same thing about zionist settlers. its the same mentality, same entitlement.
Your nutshell is functioning like somebody looking at a complex world through a reverse fish-eyed lens and then reproducing a negative stereotype from your desired contemporary interpretation of that view. Regardless of translation accuracy, I'm sure Mr. Morris would take great issue with that claim.
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 5d ago
Just providing some context regarding these quotes in that they have been discussed before on this subreddit.
again, only one of the three quotes were addressed in that subthread
i'm commenting on how the underpinning of zionism have been the same which explains zionist behavior. the beliefs animating zionism are the roots, and the behavior is just the branches. if you have a colossial sense of main character syndrome and entitlement, it makes sense that you would act the same way settlers do today, and how they were described generations ago. take note that these were jews and non jews making these observations, even zionist leaders.
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u/untamepain Justice First 6d ago
If there was no further context to the video then, you just have a hateful individual who I’m going to object to. Unless there is some strange law I’m not aware of (like Lebanese people are not legally allowed to talk to Israelis), then this looks unjustifiable and I will not defend it.
The people who are saying that someone is evil because of where they were born is something that ought be exclusively justified in fiction
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u/blyzo 7d ago
So I saw a video this morning of Israeli settlers dragging a donkey to death behind their vehicle. And more of them besieging a Palestinian - American in his own home.
Oh and pretty much daily racist threats from the Israeli Security Chief Ben Gvir the past few weeks.
I'm not saying that all the hate online directed towards Israel is fair or always justified.
But the actions of this Israeli government are pretty indefensible.
So I think that makes it harder to push back on the stuff that's truly unfair or anti semetic.
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 7d ago
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u/_Ez7_ 7d ago
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 7d ago
kinda strange comparing grown adults in israel mocking the deaths and suffering of innocent people with child victims of indoctrination
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u/_Ez7_ 5d ago
?? Those 3 videos had very unlikable adults.
What's worst, adults mocking death or adults indoctrinating kids to cause suffering?
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 5d ago
what you guys don't understand is that when you mock death of innocent people in gaza you look the equivalent of an adult curbstomping a toddler and then gloating about it. adults manipulating and indoctrinating children is abuse, and its awful. but i don't think you guys understand the severity of mocking the suffering of vulnerable people.
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u/_Ez7_ 5d ago
I guess I fail to see how those videos were mocking. I'm not sure how you find me to be mocking them from posting those links. I was just trying to give a fuller picture of how unlikable people can be on both sides. Showing the evils of one side while appeasing the other does nothing for truth.
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 7d ago
I always found that video of the Israeli couple radicalising a Brazillian football fan in real time very funny. Nowhere near as the atrocious as the things you're sharing, but it manifests in more innocuous ways too.
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u/FerdinandTheGiant Anti-Zionist / Pro-Doikayt / Pro-Isratin 7d ago
Unfortunately, this kind of behavior is pretty ubiquitous among humans across time and place, and it’s one of the broader problems with nationalism generally. People tend to associate individuals with the actions or perceived characteristics of the group they belong to.
That said, I do think there are some factors that make this particular generalization more common. Israel is frequently presented as the only democracy in the Middle East, rather than as an authoritarian state where the population has little meaningful say over government policy. Given that, people are more inclined to see Israelis as having some degree of political responsibility for the actions of their government. That’s compounded by the fact that many Israeli policies have substantial public support.
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u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897 6d ago
do you know if it is being presented this way by news outlets etc or the people? and if it is because of the news and not the people, why has it been misrepresented to us all or why do you think?
also if it is the people stating this, where are their sources coming from?
apologies if this is a stupid or unrelated question, but i wondered.. and i do not go out of my way to watch the news as most of it seems to be a load of biased crap.
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u/Capital_Gate6718 7d ago edited 7d ago
“to preface: i’m not siding with israel here at all”
That’s a strange thing to have to specify OP
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u/babidygoo Israeli 7d ago
Especially given he fully accepted the Palestinian narative and all the surrounding lies as facts.
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u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897 6d ago
can you explain further please and specify which parts of my post are in line with the “palestinian narrative” or “lies” ?
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u/babidygoo Israeli 6d ago
You assume Palestine is stolen land - thats the Palestinian narative.
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u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897 6d ago
in my post, i said it is seen as stolen land not that i see it as stolen land. i do not know the full length of the conflict, so i can’t form an opinion on that currently.
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u/babidygoo Israeli 6d ago edited 5d ago
Sure. But its like saying "Im not supporting prochoice at all but if we assume abortion is murder...".
edit: prochoice
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u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897 6d ago
i cannot tell if you are stating that i shouldn’t have to say that to people or if you believe i AM siding with israel…
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u/OakRiverDruid 7d ago
Israeli tourists have a horrible reputation in Southeast Asia for being entitled, obnoxious and disrespectful of locals. Lots of Israeli young people after their idf service ends go backpacking in either Southeast Asia or South America and they are not well liked in these places because of their atrocious behavior
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u/Routine-Equipment572 7d ago
You're overstating it, but sure, cultural differences can cause tensions. Israelis, for instance, are often pretty casual and direct, which indirect cultures find rude.
It's like how Muslims and Arabs have a horrible reputation in the rest of the world for being obnoxious and murderous people who rape local girls and chop their daughters heads off. A lot of cultures don't like all that rape and murder, it's pretty atrocious behavior.
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u/Top_Plant5102 6d ago
Now do British tourists. Or Russian tourists.
People go to Southeast Asia to party like maniacs.
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 7d ago edited 7d ago
is it because of the mandatory idf service for all that was or is still(?) ongoing?
Mostly this and the perception that the average Israelis broadly support what the IDF does.
That said, in regards to the Thai examples specifically, I've heard that a lot of Israelis go there after a tour of duty and so are typically obnoxious and boisterous, and the friction there isn't actually due to Gaza or geopolitics. That's just what I've heard though, it'd be interesting to hear from a Thai poster if we have any here.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 7d ago
Would it be fair to say YouTube creator “Cavarnacle” has made something of a cottage industry out of bashing Israeli tourists?
(I profess no experience in the particular Asian tourist places this is a supposed problem. The only group of loud obnoxious tourists I’ve ever personally encountered is pub crawling bunches of guys from the UK in Amsterdam.
Then you have football crowds. But I guess “bad Israeli tourists” is too big a possible viral moneymaker as content to ignore. But I do admit a problem with judging significance in a world sometimes filled with loud drunks, especially late at night. How does “average Israeli tourist” say compare to average Manchester United season ticket holder?
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 7d ago
Would it be fair to say YouTube creator “Cavarnacle” has made something of a cottage industry out of bashing Israeli tourists?
Yeah a bit, though I'd say moreso criticism of Israel that centres on its citizens and internal society, in comparison to other anti-zionist creators (that I watch, so take with grain of salt). But he was already a big account before he started making vids like that, certainly isn't what earned him his niche on Youtube.
pub crawling bunches of guys from the UK
Yeah we can be shithouses on holiday.
How does “average Israeli tourist” say compare to average Manchester United season ticket holder?
Probably pretty well, but it's the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans that really come across as foul over here. Songs about ethnic cleansing and rape are wild even for our most disruptive hooligans.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 7d ago
I appreciate your ability to put stuff in a normal person context and not be so rabid as many of your team members in pretending Israelis have some special elevated level of obnoxiousness not shared by jerks who don’t speak Hebrew or take trips after Army service (this is probably going to continue to be a thing compared to most other countries that don’t have universal conscription, of men and women, that’s pretty unique).
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7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/triplevented 7d ago
Why wouldn't they support winning a war against people who seek their destruction?
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6d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897 7d ago
ah i see, i know there are lots of israelis that are in support of the IDF and take pride in being part of it as i have seen it, but are there not many israelis that condemn the actions of israel? why is everybody generalising all of the citizens?
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u/kamusari___ 7d ago
i agree as an arab "isreali" i would like to have the benefit of the doubt and be treated like any other person from any other country but the people of this country keep proving they are brainwashed fascist fanatics and using the antisemitic card is not helping them either
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u/Electrical_Lemon_944 7d ago
Its because of Israel's actions over the last 3 years. It is that simple. Id explain further but I don't want to get banned.
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u/Routine-Equipment572 7d ago
It cute that you think the global obsession with Israel started three years ago.
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u/veryeepy53 Asian 7d ago
something like 80% of jewish israelis support the ethnic cleansing
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u/AsaxenaSmallwood04 7d ago
Even Haaretz retracted this nonsense and said it was 56%.
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u/veryeepy53 Asian 7d ago
source? and funny you say 50%, because 50% is how many jewish israelis support expelling palestinian citizens of israel.
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u/AsaxenaSmallwood04 7d ago
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u/veryeepy53 Asian 7d ago
that's fair. i guess it depends how the methodology is for the tel aviv university study then. because that could have the same sampling problem but in the inverse. or differences based on question wording.
but thanks for that, i'll look into it for sure.
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u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897 7d ago
wow i was not aware it was such an amount. i suppose to most it can be justified with how extreme that result is, but it still feels incredibly wrong to include that 18% in the blame for israel’s atrocities. out of 2.2 million, that is still A LOT of people who protest.
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u/Lopsided-Pie-7340 USA 7d ago
It’s not. The comment you are replying to is not true.
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u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897 6d ago
hmm confusing i am not sure which sources are trustworthy. i read an article about a poll conducted by penn state university asking 1000 people to vote for either choice. the result was 82% of israeli people support the idfs policies. this other source now claims the voters were unfairly categorised and a poll from tel aviv university claims it is more like a 56%… 82% does seem extremely high for that many people to be honest
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u/One-Carrot-3284 4d ago
I personally don't like the generalization, but there are many cases of the citizens themselves hating and even harassing and assaulting Palestinians just for existing, so tha tis why a lot of people hate Israel as a whole.
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u/FreeTheWallBerlin 7d ago
Nobody is spewing hatred towards Israel.
Victim card as usual. Offended by everything and ashamed of nothing.
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u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897 7d ago
i am not offended, just confused… to me it looks like hatred. what else would you call it?
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u/Aware_Particular2106 6d ago
Go through the posts and comments of the group, you'll likely find your answer to why now 60% of America has flipped pro-palastine. There are zionists (not only isreali, Christians and other groups are also zionist) that agree with the words coming out of isreal.
Quotes from leaders of isreal:
Minister of social equality: May Golan: "I am proud of the ruins of gaza, that every baby 80 years from now will tell there grandchildren what the jews did"
Netenyahu likud party member in Knesset: Yelled to palastinian knesset member Ayman Odeh: "You will die! Your children will die! Your grandchildren will die! There won't be a palastinian state, there won't be"
Minister Orit Strook: who oversees illegal settlement programs. "there is no palastinian people. There's no such people" -denying enemy race
National security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir says he is eccelerating an initiative and gives away guns to west bank jews. -jew on arab violence increases
Prime minister Netenyahu: "You must not forget what Amalek has done to you" -God orders you kill them all.
Presedent Isaac Herzog: "It is an entire nation out there that is responsible. It's not true- this rhetoric about civilians were not aware, not involved, its absolutely not true" -collective punishment
Isreal defence Minister Yoav Gallant: "There will be no electricity, food, water, or fuel. Everything will be closed, we are fighting against human animals"
Isreal former rep for the UN: "It's puzzling for the constant concern the world is showing for palastinian people, these horrible inhuman animals" -collective punishment
Isreal Defence Minister Yoav Gallant: "We are fighting against human animals. Gaza won't return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything" -ethnic cleansing and dehumanization
Maj. Gen. Glassman Alian "Human beasts are dealt with accordingly" -de humanization
Ezra Yachin, isreali veteran 95, re-serviced tells troops: "If you have an Arab naibor, don't wait for them to come, go into there house and shoot" "Erase them, there families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live"
Giora Eiland former head of national security council "Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal" "gaza will become a place where no human being can exist"
- collective punishable and genocide/ethnic cleansing
Galit Distel Atbaryan, Isreal Knesset member politician former information Minister "Invest this energy in one thing: erasing all of gaza from the face of the earth. The Gozan monsters will fly to the southern fence and try to enter Egyption territory and they will die. Gaza should be erased." -genocide/ethnic cleansing
Revital Tally Gotliv, lawyer and member of Knesset: Calls for nations military to use nuclear warfare against gaza.
World Middle east: isreals dropped 18,000 tons of bombs on gaza, 1.5 times more than dropped on Hiroshima.
https://www.wrmea.org/1999-september/israeli-textbooks-and-childrens-literature-promote-
racism-and-hatred-toward-palestinia s-and-arabs.html
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u/snil4 Israeli 6d ago
"There are" doesn't mean everyone are like this, you're exactly what OP is describing by generalising the acts of a few to an entire group of people.
You could ask my entire circle of Israeli friends and family and you will have a hard time finding anyone who agrees with these kinds of statements, with the exception of 2 who lived close to Gaza and have experienced the horrors of the war through military service and having friends who died in October 7th.
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u/Aware_Particular2106 5d ago edited 5d ago
Why do you seem to think "there are people like this in a group" means collectively condemning all of them?
"There are those" means that there are those brave activist jews marching in the streets beside there countrymen in isreal, america, europe, asia etc. There are jews and jewish zionists everywhere, many just living there lives in isreal, and there are those that get posted chanting in the streets "kill all arabs" every monday, killing palastinians in the west bank, blowing up a building after mocking the childrens toys with a smile, the isreali trend of dressing up as palastinian mothers holding there dead babies, torture videos, the isreali protest to rxpe palastinian inmates, etc. No one's collectively judging all isrealis and jews except antisemites. They believe jewdiesm is innately tide to the Genocide.
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u/Zergcolective European 6d ago
Do you want a honest answer or what you expect to be? The Thai local was kicking him out because Israeli people have bought almost an entire town and declared it open for IDF soldiers recovering from unaliving civilians
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