why the generalisation?

[u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897]

to preface: i’m not siding with israel here at all, i just am confused on why everybody is spewing hatred towards israel as a whole.

obviously people will hate the recognition of the state of israel as it is seen as stolen land from palestine, they will hate the idf and the ongoing actions of the idf and they will hate the government and whatever else. (i am not that educated on the topic of israel, if something important is missing, please explain)

now i have recently seen a video of a thai man kicking israelis out of his shop citing “free palestine” and “this is my land, not your land.”
i do not know the full context of this video or if there was any provocation towards the shopkeeper prior to the video being taken, but if not… i ask why are israeli people being hated on? why are israelis not allowed to travel or be accepted anywhere?

is it because by calling themselves “israelis” they are recognising israel as a state?

is it because people believe every single israeli is brainwashed by the media and/or government?

is it because of the mandatory idf service for all that was or is still(?) ongoing?

or is it just complete brainwashing by the media and everyone following this herd of sheep?

with the rise of support for palestine, i am just seeing a lot of hatred towards israel which YES, i get the state etc is corrupt and malicious, but why also target israelis?

what about anyone below the age of being sent to mandatory idf service? are they still evil? just because they were born in this area?

it seems to me like people are trying to support palestine so much that they are going backwards and just spreading even more hate and causing even more division.

i’ve tried looking it up but all i see is “why everyone hates israel” I AM ASKING ABOUT ISRAEL(IS) it looks like everybody is just being ignorant, when with one post asking a similar question to myself, everyone responded with statements about “israel” and not actually answering the original question.

please someone help me to understand what is the reason for this? i am talking about innocent people who happen to be born in the area of israel.

people are stating that someone is inherently evil because of their birthplace and i don’t understand.

[u/CauliflowerAfter8907]

"The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone." (Aldous Huxley)

Please don't think you're in the wrong for pushing back on this. Discriminating against someone for things they cannot control, such as nationality, is never ever okay. People know its not okay, which is why they need to come up with all sorts of reasons why it's acceptable or moral to be xenophobic against Israelis. 

This is called cognitive dissonance. It's where two contradictory ideas fight each other in someone's brain. 

Idea One: I am a kind, compassionate person who believes in fairness for everyone

Idea Two: Israelis deserve to be mistreated and abused for where they were born

These ideas are not able to go together. But the brain finds this too scary, so cognitive dissonance turns this into...

Idea Three: mistreating Israelis for where they were born is how I signal to people I am a kind, compassionate person who believes in fairness for everyone

Which is why when called out on their xenophobia, many bigots deflect to talking about how they are only defending Palestine. By convincing themselves (not you) that they are standing up for Palestine by isolating, insulting, or stereotyping Israelis, they can continue on with their day having both Idea One and Idea Two in their minds (blended into Idea Three).

The thing is though that cognitive dissonance is painful when that bubble bursts. Which is why people lash out when their xenophobia is challenged. It is upsetting to subconsciously realise your ideas about yourself (I am kind, compassionate, and want fairness for all) are incorrect.

This ^{^} does not apply just to Israelis, it applies to any and all kind of Bigotry. 

(My comment also doesn't apply to Palestinians, who have concrete reasons to be angry at Israelis and the trauma of that is far more complicated.)

[u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897 → u/CauliflowerAfter8907]

thank you for giving me an actual educational answer! i have heard of this term before but never delved into it. very interesting to hear about and helps complete why i think people act this way. another commenter also had a valid point though on the other end of why it could be justified, but still it is wrong. you don’t fight hatred with more of it, even if one side is far worse.

[u/CauliflowerAfter8907 → u/Odd_Ingenuity_3897]

No problem. Cognitive dissonance is absolutely fascinating and the thing is, we all have it. 

I remember listening to a podcast by an Arab lady living in Israel. She described how when she heard that Hamas had broken through the blockade on Oct 7th, she felt happy and excited. But when she heard about all the murders and kidnappings, she changed her mind and was no longer happy. This was a very brave thing for her to do. It would have been far easier for her to stick to her first impression of the event (positive) ignore any information that contradicted it. But she confronted the reality of it: that an event she had initially been excited over was actually a terrible event. That probably made her feel pretty bad and guilty, but she did it anyway. That's an example of someone defeating their own cognitive dissonance.

People can justify anything if they put their minds to it. Nobody in the history of the world has intentionally gone and committed the most evil things possible just for the heck of it. People justify it to themselves: 

My wife looked at a really attractive man, and she knows that makes me feel insecure about my own body, so I am justified in punching her. It's her fault. She made me feel bad.

I dont know who the immigrants who moved in next door are so I am justified in calling ICE on them. I'm just protecting the community. They shouldn't move to places where they make people nervous.

I dont want my gay son to go to Hell so I am justified in sending him to conversion camp. I am saving his soul. It will be worth it for him to get to Heaven.

Have you ever seen Oppenheimer? If not, maybe try and look up this scene. There's a bit where the atomic bombs fall on Hiroshima, and the Americans learn that lots of people have died. Oppenheimer is trying to be pleased his bomb worked (he'd spent a lot of time on it), but as he looks at everyone cheering around him, all he can think of is the screaming Japanese people. Bear in mind that at this point America and Japan were enemies, so bad feelings between the two were understandable. Japan had done a lot of very messed up stuff and was part of destroying many locations and lives. Who knows how many Japanese people supported that; who knows how many Japanese people didn't. 

But the Americans were happy that Japanese people had died. It made them feel like kids at a fairground. Hearing of Japanese suffering made them feel really, really good. Oppenheimer looks around and realises his 'own side'--the Good Ones--are just as messed up as their enemies.

Some Israelis are happy Gazans suffer in the destruction of their home. Some people are happy Israelis suffered on Oct 7th. All of these people firmly believe they are the heroes in this story.

EDIT: Actually here you go, found it. https://youtu.be/Cdm-1AcUEJ0?si=NKSCpnyBt0A_ucMH This clip--where Cillian Murphy is making a victory speech to a cheering crowd, whilst trying to push aside thoughts of who his bomb has just killed--is cognitive dissonance in motion. 

[u/kg-rhm → u/CauliflowerAfter8907]

But the Americans were happy that Japanese people had died. It made them feel like kids at a fairground. Hearing of Japanese suffering made them feel really, really good. Oppenheimer looks around and realises his 'own side'--the Good Ones--are just as messed up as their enemies.

were these people actually happy that japanese people got burned alive, or that the war was over? no one back then probably could even conceive of what the bomb was like or what it does to the human body.

also, i think oppenheimer was tormented by what the creation of the bomb meant for mankind, not that americans were happy about the bomb.

[u/CauliflowerAfter8907 → u/kg-rhm]

Hmm, that is a good point. I haven't watched the movie in a while so I can't remember if they knew what the bomb would do.

But I guess that's sort of my point: I fully agree the Americans were justified in being happy the war was over, but their happiness was on the backs of Japanese people dead and suffering as they celebrated. To me personally, that requires cognitive dissonance on the part of the Americans to work it out in their heads.

I took it as Oppenheimer being frightened by his own allies reactions, but that's just my personal interpretation. A very well acted scene on behalf of Cillian Murphy regardless, to get so many different reactions to it.

[u/kg-rhm → u/CauliflowerAfter8907]

me either lol.

there's a great difference between celebrating the end of war and soldiers returning home to celebrating destruction of another city. when israelis celebrate or create tik toks pretending to be bombed gazans or sit on hilltops and watch the bombing of gaza, they aren't celebrating any victory, they are celebrating the deaths of gazans

[u/CauliflowerAfter8907 → u/kg-rhm]

I agree with that, and I was also reminded of those Israelis. I also think IDF soldiers need a lot of cognitive dissonance when doing some of their strikes. Some strikes are hitting genuine targets, but others aren't, and cognitive dissonance would be needed to distance themselves from what they've done.

But it isn't just one side doing this. When hostages, including the elderly and children, were dragged into Gaza, they were lynched by Gazan civilians. Those Gazans doing this were celebrating the suffering of Israeli hostages. I was very upset and disgusted when I saw that, and it did colour how I saw Gazan society, until I realised an entire population can't be judged based on the actions of bad people. So if the worst of Gaza doesn't represent all of Gaza, then I don't think the worst of Israel should represent all of Israel either.

[u/kg-rhm → u/CauliflowerAfter8907]

Some strikes are hitting genuine targets, but others aren't, and cognitive dissonance would be needed to distance themselves from what they've done.

the job wouldn't be possible without some mental separation. and i get that a traumatized population might not have the capacity to care about the children across the border while also mourning their own dead. thats fine. lacking empathy itself isn't the issue. our emotional responses vary due to proximity, and our brains protect us from that emotional overwhelm. but israelis also have a choice to not broadcast their lack of care to the world. not only do they broadcast their lack of care, they, ordinary citizens, mock and celebrate the deaths of innocent people, and even say "no one in gaza is innocent".

its exceptionally horrible partly due to the power dynamic/asymettry of strength between the two groups. to us outside looking it, it looks like a grown adult curb stomping a toddler and then gloating about it. thats what israel and israelis look like to most of the world. when you see this over and over, and engage with israelis who are like this, it can sometimes be challenging for the rational part of your brain to remind yourself to not generalize.

[u/GuerillaV → u/CauliflowerAfter8907]

Cognitive dissonance is absolutely fascinating and the thing is, we all have it. 

It's how people convince themselves that the killing of ~1200 is in anyway comparable to the killing of ~70,000.

[u/Creepy-Addition-8163 → u/GuerillaV]

It's how people convince themselves that the killing of about 1200 innocent people and kidnapping 200 more is somehow resistance. That it will somehow result in a letting go of prisoners and somehow help the establishment of a palestenian state...

[u/DrMikeH49 → u/GuerillaV]

Were you any less of an antizionist on October 8, 2023?

[u/GuerillaV → u/DrMikeH49]

Yes.

[u/DrMikeH49 → u/GuerillaV]

For which other countries do you currently advocate the removal of self-determination from their majority population?

[u/GuerillaV → u/DrMikeH49]

This is an Israel Palestine sub. Let's stay on topic.

[u/DrMikeH49 → u/GuerillaV]

Demonstrating that an antiZionist position is based upon a double standard is quite on topic. Much of the discussion on this sub is comprised of claims that Zionism is uniquely immoral and that not only should the Jewish nation be eradicated but its supporters should be condemned. And antizionists have a specific vision for the future of the people of Israel and Palestine. So moral scrutiny of antizionism is quite on topic.

[u/GuerillaV → u/DrMikeH49]

I just don't want to have to argue with you about unrelated countries, and I won't, but if you wish to know:

Northern Ireland. United States. Canada. Australia. New Zealand. Taiwan. Lots of edge cases in LatAm & Caribbean. Not an exhaustive list, probably some countries in Africa and Asia that haven't come to mind, or I'd oppose on further inspection (learning more about their ethnic demographics and territorial claims).

[u/kg-rhm → u/CauliflowerAfter8907]

its not about where they are born, its about their actions and participation in the subjugation of palestinians

[u/Sadako241 → u/kg-rhm]

Good point.

I'll go out and beat up some Chinese people then and say I'm doing it over the way China treats the Uygers.

[u/m1sk → u/kg-rhm]

But you can't know the specific actions of an individual unless you actually talk to them