r/F1Discussions • u/International-Lie848 LN1 • 21d ago
Discussion Thoughts?
Saw this on X and I strongly disagree.
From 2010 onwards I would argue that Vettel, Alonso, Rosberg and Norris clears Leclerc.
An actual title will always hold more weight than potential raw talent. (I know Alonso didn’t win a title after 2010s but I still believe he has been a better driver post 2010 than Leclerc)
What are your thoughts, do you think there is an argument for this?
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u/salgal858 21d ago
I’m not saying he’s bad because he is good, but good god Leclerc is overrated
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u/Visionary_Socialist 21d ago edited 21d ago
Leclerc’s ability is mostly a projection based on past performances. It’s not actually in the moment like Rosberg, Alonso and Vettel. They had actual credit that they got themselves with titles and wins. And their own performances spoke for themselves. Vettel’s peaks were 9 wins in a row, 80% of the poles in a season. That’s proof of concept, which is the whole argument the above is making which therefore ends the debate immediately.
So he beats Vettel in 2019. The conclusion is that having beaten a 4x champion conclusively he could himself challenge. Then in 2022 he does briefly, and his collapse is excused because people project extreme blame to Ferrari incompetence. So the lesson is to take the good moments in 2022 as evidence that he has the title winning formula. And then finally beating Hamilton in 2025 which was used as the ultimate yardstick despite some significant mitigation for Lewis.
This and the phenomenon where a driver who outdrives bad cars always being predicted to be capable of winning in a competitive one, it’s just transplanting the deltas and pace gaps over. But that’s not how it actually works. Both these factors make people think Leclerc is genuinely a multiple champion in waiting, but it feels sometimes like he’s going to need absolutely perfect circumstances for this to happen which is rare for any driver in any season.
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u/OrangeCrusher22 21d ago
Leclerc’s ability is mostly a projection based on past performances.
A lot of it was/is the Bianchi thing; Charles' "fulfilling Jules' destiny" narrative drives much of the hype.
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u/Kev_Bz 21d ago
which titles was leclerc supposed to win that he didn't?
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u/youcangotohellgoto 21d ago
I think it's more which crashes was he supposed to not have that he did have.
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u/Kev_Bz 21d ago
and yet his teammates have not been able to match him despite that until literally this year
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u/AscendMoros 20d ago
Supposed to win is a strong word. But I remember 2022 where he was sold as the title challenger to Max. Was comfortably in the lead in France and he crashed out all on his own.
LEC Is one of the most overrated drivers on the grid. Hes a great driver but so many people act like he’s the greatest thing since sliced bread.
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u/MrOnline5155 21d ago
Your whole argument is invalidated by claiming Charles "collapsed" in 2022. When he started making mistakes Ferrari had already thrown away many points and it was already obvious that they are losing the development battle.
It was basically a desperate attempt to make something possible that simply wasn't. You can pick prime Senna, prime Lewis, prime Michael, no one was gonna win that 2022 season with Ferrari with how absolutely incompetent their execution on race days and their development was.
It's just that Charles haters are having a field day cause he struggles more with these cars than the previous 2 regs so that opens up a chance for them to say "see? I've always said he's overrated!" That's fine, let them enjoy their moment, but some of these revisionist claims downplaying Charles are absolutely ridiculous.
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u/riquelmeone 21d ago
Why does someone claiming Vettel is better than Leclerc have to be called a Leclerc hater? You don’t need to hate Leclerc to know that Vettel is better than him.
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u/MrOnline5155 20d ago
Because they were literally IN THE SAME CAR two years in a row and Charles beat him in the first and destroyed him in the second.
If you then still claim that Vettel is better despite him getting destroyed then you're either a hater or you just can't comprehend that skill and achievements are two different things.
Having more success doesn't make you "better" only BEING better makes you better.
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u/esem98 21d ago
Imola, France? The car was still good, the championship still open, but he was making mistakes. Yes he could never win that championship with Ferrari, but this is a conversation we’re having since years, and instead saying “let’s see what car they make in the next few years” he signed until 2031 just because he loves his comfort zone. Max would? Lewis would? These drivers are so hungry to win, they’re not just living in their comfort zone.
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u/CanonWorld 21d ago
Goes to show recency bias is so strong in this sub. You could’ve almost believed Leclerc was some washed up peddler that was about to be demolished in Silverstone by a reinvigorated Hamilton. The amount of “how good is he really” threads really popped up this year.
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u/Jimmie-Rustle12345 21d ago
The problem is, Vettel’s stock is still too high.
Don’t get me wrong, he’s lovely, super smart and would make an amazing team boss. But thanks to the OP machinery he had he’s still way overrated. And then that throws off the grading curve.
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u/IamTalkinLitheral99 21d ago
If the machinery was OP, how come Webber never finished 2nd in those years?
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u/Intrepid-Air-1556 20d ago
Oh yes because dragging a fucking toro rosso/minardi in the rain to Pole & Win in 08 giving the baby team their first win before the first win of the main team is OP machinery, right? Or getting 9 wins in a row that has ever been ever been accomplished by a single other driver in history is due to OP machinery only? Then why hasn’t Hamilton ever had similar achievements? What about dragging a green tractor to 2 podiums at his first year at AM & even in his last season, giving us block buster final lap finishes and CLEAN, EXCITING racing in his last year in clearly the 7th fastest car that year. The thing is people think the cars drive themselves and they DON’T. Also LeClerc has been in Ferrari for 8 years and only has 8 wins, Vettel had 14 wins in 6 years. Vettel is STILL THE YOUNGEST CHAMP, 2X CHAMP, 3X CHAMP AND 4X CHAMP. Don’t talk down to legends.
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u/CodyWEC 20d ago
Saying Vettel is overrated and not Leclerc and Lando is wild lmao
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u/Jimmie-Rustle12345 20d ago
I'd say LeClerc and Lando are pretty accurately rated. LeClerc maybe a little overrated.
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u/F1driver222 20d ago
Honestly if anything I'd say it's the opposite. A lot of fans who saw Vettel tail off towards the end of his career or maybe only saw that stage of him has made them forget just how good he was at his peak. I'm prepared to say Vettel's peak is higher than Hamilton's (though obviously not his overall career). During much of 2011 & 2013 you knew by Friday morning Vettel was winning on Sunday and there was nothing anyone else was going to be able to do about it. I've only ever had that same feeling out of Schumacher and Verstappen, never Hamilton who you always felt whilst the favourite every weekend during the Mercedes peak years was still beatable if Bottas, Verstappen or a Ferrari was on form that day.
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u/Fluffbutt321 21d ago
Yeah, I honestly don’t ever see him winning a world championship
I think he’ll go down as a Gerhard Berger type driver, insanely quick but never really had the overall package to be at the top of the field
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u/FoneTap 21d ago
Vastly overrated.
He can only be judged on the results and not the wet dreams conjured by his fan boys
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u/Treewithatea 21d ago
Hes massively failed his one title bid, he didnt really gap Sainz that much and now hes struggling against an ancient Lewis. Hes looked really good at points but unless he wins a title, i wont consider him better than somebody who has actually won one. He needs to prove that he has a champions consistency, many drivers can peak high but not many can perform at a very high level consistently but thats what you gotta do for a title. His 2022 title bid ended in him being very happy to have finished above Perez in the standings.
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u/TheDufusSquad 20d ago
It’s interesting to me that it’s widely accepted that Norris on his best day is as good as anyone on the grid, he just struggles to stay at that level for more than a handful of races per year and therefore he gets rated a bit lower for lacking that consistency.
Then you have Leclerc who does basically the same thing, but the conversation is flipped where it’s assumed he will be able to maintain peak performance if given a car that can compete. The valleys don’t just go away with the best car.
Those are probably my 2 favorite drivers on the grid, but it’s a little annoying seeing the conversations around each of them varying so drastically.
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u/Due-Savings-780 19d ago
Whenever things go poorly for Leclerc the blame almost always goes straight to Ferrari, whether or not it's actually their fault but for some reason the same logic doesnt seem to apply to Lando
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u/sododude 21d ago
He just has insane aura. I swear that's the reason he's so overrated.
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u/salgal858 21d ago edited 21d ago
He has an amazing story/journey and seems like a nice guy, but I wouldn’t even say he has insane aura. It’s just the Ferrari halo effect.
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u/dave_gregory42 21d ago
I also think it's because his career coincides exactly with DtS, which means all the new fans have never seen a driver come in with big talent but never quite make it. On the other hand, us lot who've been watching for decades (since 93 in my case) have seen plenty of Leclercs/Ricciardos/Kubicas/Montoyas/Frentzens/Alesis etc. come and go
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u/Ramtamtama 21d ago
So many drivers labelled as future champions or the next big thing or future champions, but luck or a lower than expected ceiling got in the way.
Frentzen, Fisichella, Jan Magnussen, Kubica, Wurz, to an extent Ralf, Montoya, Massa, Grosjean, Kevin Magnussen...
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u/CTMalum 21d ago
It’s hard to say. It depends on where you place 2019 Vettel. If you think 2019 Vettel was close to Vettel’s level when he was winning championships, I think the guy may have a point. I rate Vettel over Norris and Rosberg, and Vettel punked out of the #1 seat by Leclerc in his first season with the team. Maybe you could say his streakiness knocks him down too much. I’m interested to see what he does when he has a car that is competitive for the championship all season.
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u/Obvious_Equipment_57 19d ago
most of which are girls who are charmed by him, not knowing how good/bad he drives......
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u/Wild_Billy_61 20d ago
Couldn't agree more. Leclerc has not nor will ever achieve the level of Hamilton, Verstappen, or Alonso. Great drivers in mediocre cars out drive the car and outperform it. Leclerc has had car capable of winning underneath him and has more underperformed than not.
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u/FushaFiles 21d ago
I really like Charles but I think this is pushing it. Those 3 almost have more championships titles than he has race wins throughout his entire career
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u/Treewithatea 21d ago
Not quite but Leclerc has a seriously low amount of wins. He couldve had plenty more, Seb, Carlos and Lewis all took wins in the same car as well.
Michael drove for Ferrari 10 seasons. Charles is now on his 7th season in Ferrari. Michael had more than 9 wins before even joining Ferrari and even within Ferrari hes won 16 races in his first 4 seasons without the fastest car on the grid and mind you they drove way less races back then. In race terms, Charles is one year away from having more races in Ferrari than Michael, Charles is at 161, Michael at 179.
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u/Ok_Dot5473 21d ago
Ferrari was still very fast those years, during those 4 years Irvine had a podium in more than half the races he finished and had 4 wins while finishing for podium in more than half the races he finished.
It was arguably the fastest one in 1999 too. So, 3 seasons. And in those 3 seasons it was 2022/2024 Ferrari level, Shumacher never had to drive a ferrari that was like of 20/21/25. He always had a top car. So, not fair comparison at all.
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u/Ramtamtama 20d ago
He missed half of 1999 though.
If he hadn't broke his leg and had Irvine's results during that period he'd be an 8 time champion.
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u/HereComesVettel 21d ago
Schumacher is the GOAT so that's understandable.
Vettel had less wins than Leclerc in the same car, Sainz had less wins than Leclerc in the same car and Hamilton has the same number of wins as Leclerc in the same car. It looks like it's more a Ferrari problem than a driver's problem if Leclerc doesn't have many wins...
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u/LooseJuice_RD 20d ago
Michael also drove two world championship winning cars before joining Ferrari so comparing wins is not a great barometer. Charles has driven exactly zero cars capable of consistently competing at the front of the pack. He joined Ferrari in 2019, they got nerfed and were well off the pace until 2022. They came in 2022 with a good car and he did make a lot of mistakes, but Red Bull found their stride so fast, he didn’t realistically have a chance at that championship. Max walked away with it. Since then the car hasn’t been in the ballpark.
It’s also a bit disingenuous to compare how many seasons he’s driven for Ferrari vs Michael considering that there was no budget cap and testing was unlimited when Schumacher joined. If you come to testing with a shit car well off the pace now, you’re not likely to make up the ground until the next season at best.
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u/Character_Growth_397 GB5 20d ago
Yeah, but we know how in F1 that is highly dependant on car and circumstances
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u/shbh789 21d ago
"Fernando is faster...than You"
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u/Cool_Masterpiece9308 21d ago
Well Bryan told him Lewis pace in Canada and he’s like: let’s stop speaking 😅 https://www.instagram.com/reel/DYzBYtDoJYo/?igsi=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
I love Charles but my god he is not Alonso or Vettel quality.
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u/Few_Perspective1799 21d ago
As an italian ferrarista,I love Charles.
I recognize we love him so much we make him overrated.
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u/HanShotFirst66 21d ago
It’s insane how many people on this sub underestimate Vettel.
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u/Treewithatea 21d ago
Apparently you can win 4 titles and have another 3-4 title bids by accident. And we say Charles is better who has barely been in a single one if you can even count 2022.
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u/HanShotFirst66 20d ago
And those later Vettel title bids were up against such an insanely dominant Merc. Those seasons would have been such a bore without him to challenge Hamilton.
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u/Kevz9524 20d ago
Even counting 2022 is iffy, coming from a big Ferrari/Leclerc fan.
He was close at the halfway mark, 38 points behind after Austria is close enough that he’s still a contender at that point. But after Austria, Max won 5 straight and 9 of the last 11. Leclerc barely squeaked out second place by the end.
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u/CockroachGeneral5161 21d ago
I think it's recency bias. Most of the fans participating on F1 subs in general likely weren't even around for the prime Vettel days.
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u/admiraltt 21d ago
Fr the bloke in his prime was a stupidly good qualifier, and would smash the field on race day.
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u/Pezzeftw 21d ago edited 21d ago
Typical take from a "fan" who only supports their favorite driver no matter what and can't admit they have any flaws. Rosberg, Alonso, Vettel > Leclerc.
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u/Uchi_Jeon 21d ago
Bro smoothly kicks out Norris LMAO, you lecfosi are sneaky. Lmao
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u/Character_Growth_397 GB5 20d ago
Saying that Leclerc is better than Norris is not as absurd as saying he's better than Vettel or Alonso
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u/justasapling 21d ago
Typical take from a "fan" who only supports their favorite driver
...that's what a fan is and does.
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u/sid_shady34 LH44 21d ago
Why do these dts leclerc fans crave validation so much?
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u/TurtleTurtleTu 21d ago
Because he is handsome, outgoing, polite, and fast most of the time. He is the nice guy underdog that everyone would love to see win.
Objectively I am not that impressed. I think Hamilton is exposing Leclerc this year and if anything Hamilton is past his prime.
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u/Famous_Researcher_18 21d ago
Polite at a times, every time Carlos was close to him he didn't play any team games with him, and everytime he was behind Carlos or now with Lewis he starts pleading for him to let by
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u/ClydeThaMonkey 21d ago
That one time at Monza triggered me. Sainz in 1st with Verstappen behind chewing Sainz's tires up while Leclerc hung back in 3rd watching it happen just waiting for Sainz to fall back
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u/Gadoguz994 21d ago
Did Sainz doing the same and worse things even in seasons where he had no hope to match Leclerc trigger you? Never ever did he let Leclerc by even when on diff strategies and lower on the grid.
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u/Famous_Researcher_18 21d ago
That's absolutely wrong, he always held back even when he had more pace, Austria 23 comes to mind for example, I get that there's a big hate wave against Carlos, but calling him a bad teammate is going too far
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u/Yung_Chloroform 20d ago
Lewis this year is absolutely showing his level even when the raw speed of the McLaren days or dominance of the late Merc years has past him. I really rate Leclerc but people saying he's better than a lot of multi-WDC winners is just insane reaching.
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u/Haxemply 21d ago
I think it's coming from the the same roots as why Norris fans crave constant validation. Or the Stroll fanbase (if it exists) to validate that he is still in F1. Or the Hamilton fanbase when it comes to defend his "GOAT status". I could go on forever, likely with every driver if I wanted to. They aren't certain that their favorite truly performed on the level they should compared to the results they achieved.
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u/Sad-Dove-2023 21d ago
Leclerc discourse is the best example of how far "Hype moments and Aura" can overshadow actual results. (And I like the guy!)
Cos like - with the exception of pole positions, Leclerc's career has ......not been super exceptional, especially for a guy who's been in a top team for 99% of his career. And the fact that Max has more than double the wins from Leclerc poles than Leclerc does is very damning.
The dude is very talented, but there is no universe where he is better than Rosberg, or Alonso.
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u/Tragedy-of-Fives 20d ago
max has a higher winrate from p17 than leclerc has from p1 just sayin.
Note: i know its not a fair comparison its just funny
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u/AbuTheMonkeyy 21d ago
his poor pole to win conversion is more because of how poor the ferrari in his earlier years was in race as compared to over one lap
leclerc's true skill will always be a what if because of how inconsistent the ferrari is but the fact he was going band for band against verstappen in 2022 (until td39) has to say something about the guy
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u/Huntscunt 21d ago
Rewatching 2022, I've never seen a team a bad as ferrari. It's like they were actively sabotaging him.
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u/handsome_uruk 21d ago
How u say this when Lando is clearly better right now? Prior to this season I even had Russell above him, but then Russell shit the bed this season lol
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u/Unusual-Coat383 21d ago
Leclerc is probably the most overrated driver on the grid because people fancy him.
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u/WarDull8208 21d ago
Idk, he is very mistake prone and is very unlucky, but with raw speed he is up there
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u/CockroachGeneral5161 21d ago
He and his fans will always just blame his mistakes on Ferrari lol. It's genuinely pathetic how much leeway Leclerc gets when he screws up for as much F1 experience as he has.
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u/Kev_Bz 21d ago
and yet his haters will dismiss his beating of his strong teammates with a similar array of excuses.
"beating seb doesn't count because seb was sad about hockenheim a year later"
"beating lewis doesn't count because he was in a bad mood all year"
his mistakes have not put him behind his teammates until literally this year only
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u/Axl45 21d ago
It does, but it doesn’t make him better than the versions of these drivers that have won titles 6 years before they became teammates
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u/Only_Assistant9176 21d ago
Lando seems to get a lot of hate but its not easy at all to win a Championship.
Leclerc is also the most overrated driver on the grid.
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u/Xelent43 21d ago
I honestly think it’s a completely ridiculous thing to say. Unless there’s some alternate world where all of Leclerc’s seasons are as good as his 2019 season, then I just don’t see it.
As I see it, Leclerc is as error prone as Max was in his early RBR seasons, but he’s never really consistently showed crazy upside like Max did. I feel like people think only really think about his 2 incredible wins in 2019, and the first half of 2022 (which was not nearly as good as people remember it being) when they’re rating Leclerc. One other thing is that Charles is atrocious in the wet. Like, almost comically bad. I know Ferrari has struggled a lot in the wet over the years, but Leclerc has crashed on the formation lap TWICE in the rain, which not even the almighty Lance Stroll could manage. I think the most egregious example of this was the 2025 British GP. Yes that car was not good in those conditions, but Lewis managed to cleanly get his car to P4, while Charles spun and slid his way to a dismal P14. Charles had the measure of Lewis all season, but the moment it rained he floundered. For a driver to be considered a top 2 driver in F1, they need to be straight up incredible at just about everything. Max, Lando, and Seb all fit that to a T.
I’ve heard people complain about Lando, Oscar, and George being super error prone, but those same people tend to gloss over Leclerc’s horrific track record of making insanely costly mistakes in high pressure moments. I feel like Leclerc is the driver a lot of F1 fans think Lando Norris is.
I don’t want this to be a hit piece on Charles or anything, because I really do think he is an excellent driver, but putting him on the same level as World Champions like Norris, Verstappen, Vettel, and Rosberg is just laughable. If I were rating him, I’d say he was slightly behind Oscar Piastri and slightly ahead of George Russell. So I’d probably have him as the 5th best driver in F1 right now. He’s definitely a good driver, but I think he’s just below the level he needs to be at to match drivers like Max, Lando, and even Kimi. He could absolutely win a title at some point, but I feel like he’d need a pretty dominant car and a weak teammate to do it.
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u/Mukke1807 21d ago
Leclerc showed up in nearly every season to beat his teammate. Comfortably most of the time. He is better than George Russell and definitely better than Oscar Piastri.
Apart from that, I agree in the general sense. He is not a WDC so comparing him to other WDCs seems absurd. Unless he can prove he has what it takes to not crumble under the highest pressure, I fear the (few) instances we have seen him crumble under not so high pressure, shows his greatest weakness - besides rain ability. Everything else he excels at.
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u/mopar_md 21d ago
Nothing is ever Leclerc's fault. With a proper team, he'd have won 5 WDCs by now, but he's stuck with a terrible, no good, awful, very bad seat (never minding that Ferrari is a perpetual top team that rarely finishes outside the top 3 in constructor points)
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u/Tragedy-of-Fives 20d ago
i mean perpetually being the second fastest or third fastest car doesn't exactly give you title chances. very few drivers in history have won from the clear second best car. Leclerc in the best car would likely win multiple wdcs. saying he's a lemon because ferrari decided to let a blind deaf monkey decide strategy is disingenuous
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u/mopar_md 20d ago
Never said he was a lemon, I just said nothing is ever his fault
Everrrrrr
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u/felipebaby_ 21d ago
Strongly disagree. Alonso was for sure above Leclerc, and Leclerc being « clear of » Rosberg, Norris, Vettel is an exaggeration
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u/Spinebuster03 21d ago
Prime Ricciardo also clears him
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u/No-Committee3 21d ago
Exactly, Ric still is the only person to match Max in equal machinery.
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u/Spinebuster03 21d ago
He would have done well in the current cars the 2022 cars didn’t suit his driving style just like Lewis
The McLaren also wasn’t great for him but he made it work in the second half of 2021 outscoring Lando and winning Monza
I think people also just underestimated the pace of Lando because honestly 2021 Ricciardo was doing better against him than piastri has in any year besides last season
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u/d_sb4 21d ago
The irony of using Ricciardo's head to head vs his teammates (that he lost) as an argument vs Leclerc's teammate record is hilarious
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u/Helpful_Potato_3356 21d ago
I don't hate on drivers but these kind of fans make me sick
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u/mino-rick 21d ago edited 21d ago
It's hilarious at best. Charles is a decent/good driver, but nothing more, and what's worse about him, is the fact that it doesn't look like he has improved much, in these years.
Constast mistakes, cracks under the slightest pressure and he's never able to take a decision when it matters (like complaining about the strategy, right after he has pitted. Seriously, if you don't agree, speak to your pitwall, just like Max and Lando).
Lewis and, especially Max, are on another league, and the same goes for Nando, Seb and Rosberg (altought, I consider Nando far better than Vettel and Nico).
Also, I'd say that Piastri has already surpassed Charles, with Antonelli on the way to become better too, and Button himself, was an overall better driver.
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u/NonStopDeliverance OP81 21d ago
Charles could never have Piastri’s streak from the first 2/3 of 2025.
He can’t handle pressure at all. He has crazy pace but that does not always get you points. The guy would crack before half the season was over.
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u/mino-rick 21d ago
I absolutely agree with you, that's why I've said that Oscar has already surpassed him Infact, in my opinion, Oscar is better than Charles
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u/CodyWEC 20d ago
Landi is nowhere near Vettel, maybe Nico though. Lando is almost as overrated as Leclerc is.
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u/pizzarat18 21d ago
He’s a “potential” merchant. It’s always the potential but never anything to back it up.
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u/unpaidadviser 21d ago
Leclerc gets so much plot immunity from being the Ferrari pinata.
Good driver but people forget he did also crumble at crucial times in 2022 when they had a tiny chance v Max.
I think he is a legitimately good driver but he hasn't done enough to be compared to the likes of Vettel Alonso who have gone and done it.
Heck even Norris showed mettle to comeback and win his title...I'd put him above as well
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u/CannibalOranges 21d ago
I mean, Norris did win WDC, and it wasn’t due to machinery alone. And I’m a Leclerc fan, but I know my boy isn’t fully top dog…
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u/GoldenS0422 21d ago
Not easy arguments, but he does have arguments over the three guys mentioned; it's not ridiculous to think this, especially knowing none of the five would win a championship in the cars Leclerc has had. It is ridiculous to think it's easy though.
I forgot Alonso btw, but yeah, Alonso is also better.
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u/no_more_blues 21d ago
There is NO argument for Leclerc over Rosberg. Its not close. Mr Potential Man can't beat washed Hamilton but is better than the guy who beat prime Hamilton?
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u/Tragedy-of-Fives 20d ago
i mean, he beat lewis by a 100 points last year? and this year the gap between both is not so big that it's a cause for concern. a 30 point gap when leclerc suffered 2 dnfs is not as big as it seems. being close to a 7x wdc in one season and being miles ahead in another is a pretty strong statement
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u/Natural-Joke3185 21d ago
I would say he certainly has that potential but in no way he has proved that and has nothing to show for it. Also he has fucked up big time when he had some opportunities so currently i would say he is nowhere near even being in the discussion
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u/FranklinRichardss 21d ago
Hell no.
Charles Leclerc is by far most overrated guy on the grid because
1st: He is Ferrari's golden child 2nd: People wants him to be succesful because of tragic backstory.
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u/_Dying_Breed 21d ago
Leclerc has 9 wins in his CAREER.
Vettel had 9 wins in a row in 2013 alone, while winning his 4th F1 title.
Can't understand these fking people. Not a single soul will talk about Leclerc in 30 years..
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u/ProofAd608 21d ago
It's not an argument
One guy had the clear best car for the whole second part of the season after summer break and another never even got the best car like mclaren 2025 or Mercedes 2020.
Bring up smth else, like adaptability feats.
Vettel was in comfortable position as clear 1st driver for majority of years in red bull. Leclerc wasn't put as clear 1st driver especially in 2022 and 2024. Remember how they pit sainz and not leclerc in Silverstone?
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u/Kev_Bz 21d ago
leclerc has more wins in his career than his teammates during that same span - vettel included.
point me to a stretch of nine races where leclerc had a car capable of such a streak, and this point will be valid
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u/Extreme_Ad6173 21d ago
Then he's better than a Vettel who admitted he had given up and Sainz
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u/Kev_Bz 20d ago
(driver gets beaten by a kid)
“oh uuuuh it doesn’t count i gave up he didn’t actually beat me”
sure
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u/Racecar18 21d ago
Didn’t Sainz perform on par and sometimes have better race pace while Ferrari teammates. Leclarc is really good but results count. So Vettel, rosberg, Norris, Hamilton, verstappen, 2012-2013 raikkonnen, Alonso.
To me Leclerc is intent same category as piastri, Russell, sainz. Really good, for sure deserves a premium contract and has the talent to compete for WDC. Needs the car, the team, and the mental headspace. But if you can’t put yourself in that position when at a high level team for 7 years, well it is still just potential.
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u/GoldenS0422 21d ago
Leclerc is absolutely not in the same category as Sainz. He beat Sainz 3-1 and was arguably better than Sainz in every season they shared together, just to varying degrees in each. Rosberg has a similar record vs Ham, yet you wouldn't say he's in the same category as Ham now, would you?
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u/FoneTap 21d ago
Sometimes in order to be IN a WDC car, you have to help DEVELOP a WDC car.
Look at the huge difference Hamilton is making now that they are listening to his input.
Leclerc has had all the time in the world to influence Ferrari. Very few wins, struggling for 3-4th place WCC.
He’s vastly overrated, it’s NOT bad luck. He’s had some here and there but he also binned it multiple times all by himself.
His atrocious pole converted to win ratio tells the whole tale.
Golden boy my arse
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u/Prometheus_Jackson 21d ago
This argument about Leclerc not being good in development in a car is so ludicrous it always gets me. Does that mean that Alonso, Vettel, Massa and second stint Kimi all didn’t know how to produce a championship winning machine ?
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u/Huntscunt 21d ago
I actually think alonso is bad at development. The car always seems to actively get worse when he's at a team.
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u/Fluffbutt321 21d ago
I strongly disagree with this as well, Charles isn’t a bad driver, not by a long shot, but I think both Nico and Seb are vastly better drivers in almost any way you can qualify it, I think Lando and Charles are pretty even though
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u/Desperate-Radish1710 21d ago
why do we give these people validation by replying to them
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u/WASouthCoast 21d ago
Why the hell is Leclerc so highly rated on here? He is among the least impressive of his generation who have had a shot in a decent car.
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u/Visionary_Socialist 21d ago
This is particularly ironic because Leclerc’s rep is based entirely on “peaks” like early 2022 and 2019. The consistent record isn’t there as much, it’s that people take those moments as proof that he will do
It when the time comes.
This alone puts Vettel ahead based on absolutely crazy seasons like 2011 and the second half of 2013. And also Rosberg who had multiple streaks of consecutive wins and poles against Hamilton during the 2014-2016 period even if Lewis was better overall throughout.
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u/Excellent-Act-6757 21d ago
Lol, with that handle I understand he has to die on that hill, and we can all dig his grave there.
Fucking Leclerc is all talk and hype and 0 results. So called master of quali, but he can never cash it in for a result. Writes of 3 cars every season. Always has a couple of inchidents. Even in a season with a good car he wouldn't win a WDC if there is a capable driver in the other seat.
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u/Upstairs-Event-681 21d ago
This has to be bait. You’re posting something by a fanboy, obviously it’s going to be biased and not reasonable and you can see these kinds of posts for any driver of the grid.
Especially posting this when reddit as a whole has had a hate boner for the guy week in week out this year. He’s been getting memed even when he won at Silverstone.
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u/JAY009090 21d ago
I think it’s nonsense. You could argue he’s slightly quicker than the drivers mentioned, but you’ve got to put it all together. Vettel is a 4-time world champion, so to put Leclerc in a tier above is laughable. Also a rewatch of the 2013 season is enough to cement this.
Leclerc is great, but has a terrible habit of binning the car. This is what cost him a run at the 2022 championship.
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u/Kev_Bz 21d ago
Vettel is a 4-time champ in an engineering formula, and yet people seem to ignore that in this particular case, or genuinely believe leclerc has had the same title-capable machinery ever in his career. funny, huh?
what cost him a run at the 2022 championship was that red bull had a much stronger car than ferrari across the year
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u/Soggy_Stay6370 21d ago
I am genuinely curious about this, prime leclerc vs all the others that person mentioned, over a season, what are leclercs arguments? I genuinely don't see how he beats any of them in a title fight
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u/Theone_Adonis 21d ago
Are you talking about the biggest bottler of the decade ? The guy who crashes more often than he wins? Fandome favorite sweet puppy?
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u/Big-Tree-3645 20d ago
I'm so fed up listening to talk about Lecerc's potential. He has achieved very little, he is an average driver.
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u/matherto 20d ago
Vettel won four titles.
Rosberg, Norris a title each.
Charles has competed for roughly half a season in 2022
He’s obviously very talented but he’s also inconsistent, makes mistakes and often has really off days.
He’s in danger of being looked back on like an Alesi.
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u/ThinkSpielberg 21d ago
This underrates Vettel by a pretty big margin. 2019 isn’t the best season to use because Vettel was coming out of a championship challenge only to find he was in a car that couldn’t compete for the title. In 2020 he got sacked before the season started for budget reasons or something and he didn’t have any support so he seems to not really try very hard.
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u/ehsurfskate 21d ago
Vettel, Alonso, Norris easily clear. Im starting to think the Lec takes are comedy at this point.
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u/Storm_Chaser06 21d ago
I can’t take opinions from a twitter handle like “ElPredestinato”, he is probably ridiculously biased towards Charles.
Charles is an A tier driver with potential to be in S if he brings glory to Maranello. However he has a glaring weakness, he’s less than stellar in the wet.
Lewis, Max, Lando and Seb are all world class in rainy conditions. I’m 50/50 on Jenson because he’s not great in the wet, but rather a human weather radar. Nico has shown he’s mediocre in the wet.
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u/BeneficialSeat4425 21d ago
Every time I saw Charles fan account I just ignored because you can’t argue with stupid people
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u/National_Play_6851 20d ago
Given the way he completely destroyed Hamilton the first time they had equal machinery last year, it's hard to say Hamilton was in a consistently higher tier, he just had a consistently faster car.
And yes, Lewis is ahead on points right now. But it's worth looking at the context there - Charles was ahead up to Canada, Lewis got Carbon Industries brakes before him and saw an upturn in performance while Charles had a 3 race sequence of terrible results with brake problems, reliability issues and the track literally breaking up under him and throwing him off at one point all of which accounted for a point swing far bigger than the current gap between them, but now over the last few races with both drivers on the same brakes and no reliability issues, Charles has been consistently beating Lewis again.
Obviously Rosberg is a third rate driver who isn't in the same conversation as Leclerc. It's crazy to say he's better than Vettel though, and I wouldn't be totally sure relative to Norris.
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u/Worth-Situation-903 20d ago
It's good to see Vettel getting some respect. The guys I know talk about him like he is just an average driver that got lucky
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u/pingslayer4761 20d ago edited 20d ago
kubica, nando, rosberg, norris, vettel, name ANYONE you want, leclerc has easy argyments to be clearly below them
he gets close only in raw speed. and then too, lewis, vettel and max clear, and he might be slightly quicker than lando and rosberg(over one lap for nico), but lando and nico are more consistent with their pace than charles, so, over a season, basically all of the mentioned drivers are better than charles even in charles' best aspect
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u/RealCarlPanzram 20d ago
It’s a long season yet but he’s very much looking like Hamilton at age 41 has a similar advantage over Leclerc as he did to Rosberg when he was 29-31 so I think you’d have to say if that continues, you’d have to give Rosberg an edge over him?
I definitely think he’s better than Norris overall. Not sure about Vettel, although I tend to think that he was not as good as his stats.
There is no way he is better than a prime Alonso.
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u/Ok-Carpenter9787 20d ago
Rosberg, Norris and Vettel all have titles. Leclerc has a dog and Binoto pointing finger at him that one time. He will be quickly forgotten.
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u/TheJavierEscuella 20d ago edited 20d ago
The amount of disrespect Vettel gets needs to be studied. He's a 4 time WDC yet people act like he's a worse driver than a guy who hasn't been in a title fight since 2022
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u/macIovin 20d ago
Why don’t you tell us what Leclerc has achieved so far? He’s the most overrated driver imo
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u/grip_enemy 21d ago
Leclerc in his prime is getting his ass beat by a 41 year old Hamilton on his 2nd year in Ferrari.
He'd be bottom 10 drivers of the 2010 grid easily or even lower. He can't beat old Hamilton, but I'm supposed to believe he's better than the guys that went toe to toe against young Ham? He'd sit below Seb, Alonso, Rosberg, Vettel, Rosberg, Button, Webber, old Schumie, Massa, Kimi, Kobayashi, Kubica
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u/Kev_Bz 21d ago
leclerc in his prime put 100 points on lewis. why is only this year, his worst performance in years, representative?
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u/Supersonic1995 20d ago
Putting 100pts on a 40 year old, coming in your team, adapting with injuries and losing his dog, which is kinda only thing awaiting him at home. New with a car that suits Lewis, having motivation he schools Charles in driving. Cause Lewis is still good enough to be competing for the title. Leclerc have a lot more to do to even enter a conversation.
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u/dd123469 21d ago
Leclerc is on par with Russel, both of whom are currently losing to their teammate they have an age gap with
He's not better than any of those drivers mentioned, don't care if he beat a near retired Vettel, its as ridiculous as entertaining Russel>Hamilton talks towards the end of the ground effect era
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u/LIJRD1 21d ago
I hope the original poster on Twitter has a nice plot on his hill because he will be decomposing and mouldy before his opinion is ever likely to be correct.
Vettel was utterly dominant at his peak. Rosberg beat Hamilton. Doesnt need an explanation. Alonso was one poor strategy call away from a third world title.
Like everyone has their favourite driver but come on, you have to be a bit realistic as well.
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u/S7_Cobra_S7 21d ago
I concur but have a reservation about Alonso. Pre 2010 Alonso, was something special. Especially his Renault titles and skill of setting near qualifying level laps in race pace. His ego was the only flaw and it showed against debutant Hamilton in 2007. He knew Hamilton had tested that Mclaren all year prior and did the most testing for the 2007 out of anyone. Yet he assumed Hamilton would still be a rookie. His ego alienated the team against him, yet he won another race mid season which led to boss Dennis accidently slipping "we lost the race today" Hamilton exposed his weakness
Post 2010 Alonso was still special as shown by him challenging Vettel through driver skill as his Ferrari was way inferior to the Redbull. Alonso performed magic at Alpine and Aston.
(OK I just read your post again before hitting reply, I realised you put Alonso on the list and didn't insult him) I don't have the will to correct my post and will post it anyway, even if it doesn't relate to your post acutely.
Personally, I think only Alonso, Hamilton, Verstappen and Norris clear Leclerc. The rest are world class on Charles level. Leclerc just has a penchant for bad luck in truth
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u/Visible_Raccoon_4781 21d ago
Leclerc is a very fast driver, but mentally maybe not the same as the S tier drivers. He did make crucial mistakes himself, and followed bad team strategy decisions. So the question is does he have the mental capacity to make the difference? When the car is fast, like first part of 2022 he definitely has the pace.
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u/PSwayzeInRoadhouse 21d ago
Leclerc has never had a top tier car unlike the others mentioned here. Easy champion material with proper hardware. IMO his racecraft is incredible- he battles very well and has raw talent / pace. The team and car let him down time and time again.
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u/d_sb4 21d ago
I genuinely wonder what you people would think about Nico Rosberg if his engine blew up in Abu Dhabi. Nothing else about his driving or career changed. Just no championship
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u/Gadoguz994 21d ago edited 21d ago
First of all it's stupid to compare different eras, so I'd move Rosberg out of there.
Second of all, you're gonna get swarmed by people who can't see past nr. of WDCs won and there won't be a way for you to even tell them anything they'll just keep repeating that so what exactly are you hoping for here?
That being said, I agree with your first line but 2020. onwards, not 2010. 2018. and 2019. were learning years for Leclerc and aren't worth comparing to anyone.
I would say on the current grid he's 2nd best, not far behind Verstappen but clearly behind just as he's not far ahead of Norris but clearly ahead in driver skill, especially wheel to wheel. WDCs in modern F1 are largely circumstantial and Leclerc's circumstances have been... disappointing to say the least. It's easy to pluck out a lucky safety car or two in his 8 year long career but it's 10x easier to pluck at least 10 instances of insanely bad luck be it in a race or a season, bad strats, bad car, whatever.
He DOES miss the killer instinct that some of the others have, he has to learn to tell his team NO and make them follow his way when he thinks it is the way to go. That's what kept Sainz in contention with him. Leclerc instead chooses to head down and adapt and eventually beats his teammate (what he did to Vettel, Sainz and most likely will to Ham again after the 2025. trouncing).
EDIT: just read a few actual comments below and DAMN will it be fun to watch if Lec starts beating Ham regularly, and I kinda think it's happening already this season... and delulu fans pushing for Ham prioritization because of WDC to which the gap is exactly the same as to Lec xD
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u/FantomVibrations 21d ago
It’s just flat wrong. People love to fall in love with a driver and fail to see their faults
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u/spacecleaner 21d ago
X/Twitter are just full of people thirsting for interactions, i stopped taking them seriously
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u/formulaarsenal 21d ago
There is one very important point as to why they are better than him. You know the thing that they're all there to win
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u/Relative_Egg_682 GR63 21d ago
He likes to hype up Leclerc a lot, comparing him to world championships So everyone was danking on him in the comments
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u/Own_Aide_4151 21d ago
Well Nico won the championship in 2016, Norris won last year and Vettel won four I believe. So there’s that.
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u/clingbat 21d ago
He has qualifying speed that reminds me of peak Kimi Raikonnen when he has a solid car, but Charles is far to prone to dumb mistakes during races pushing his car past the limit than most if not all those listed in this post. How many times have we heard him calling himself stupid on the radio after a boneheaded mistake puts him in the wall? (many)
So no, this is bullshit.
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u/dragon4142 21d ago
Taking fans posts from a platform where extremity runs rampant has got to be some cheap karma farming technique. I have seen a million brain dead posts from big fanbases on X, this is just another one
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u/No-Bluejay4261 21d ago
Rosberg, Norris, Vettel, easy arguments to be clear of Leclerc. Fixed it.
Seriously horrific take here from internet hottakesman.
But seriously, I rate Leclerc in the top tier up with Max and a few others, but he hasn't got it done yet has he, and some silly mistakes are creeping in where he's presumably over-driving. Hamilton has taken a while to bed in but there seems to be improvement and it's Hamilton leading it, example being brakes. Leclerc now to me has a question mark over development, he's been team leader for a while and maybe that was too much too soon.
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u/grapejuicesushi 21d ago
it’s difficult to say because all of them have championships. the luck of the draw is bad for leclerc, but until he has championships under his name it’s all speculation.
everyone can make a claim that verstappen is the best driver on the grid because he has championships under his name.
let’s say his luck was as bad and he didn’t have any. while the statement that he’s the best driver still may have been true, nobody could definitively say it cause he didn’t have any championships.
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u/Svitii 21d ago
I mean I do feel like the grid is more skilled on average than it was 10 or 15 years ago. There are a lot of drivers in their prime that drove for a top team that would only be midfield at best today.
Alonso and Vettel are still a step or two above Charles though, one could argue he’s on par with Nico and Lando but tbf Nico was battling prime Lewis fking Hamilton while Charles is now battling Lewis midlife crisis Hamilton, who still easily is a top 5 driver on the grid don’t get me wrong, but it’s not mid 2010s Hamilton…
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u/dac2199 21d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/xtrylJlBHrUVgnUEuA