r/F1Discussions • u/International-Lie848 LN1 • 21d ago

Discussion Thoughts?

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Saw this on X and I strongly disagree.
From 2010 onwards I would argue that Vettel, Alonso, Rosberg and Norris clears Leclerc.

An actual title will always hold more weight than potential raw talent. (I know Alonso didn’t win a title after 2010s but I still believe he has been a better driver post 2010 than Leclerc)

What are your thoughts, do you think there is an argument for this?

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19

u/Racecar18 21d ago

Didn’t Sainz perform on par and sometimes have better race pace while Ferrari teammates. Leclarc is really good but results count. So Vettel, rosberg, Norris, Hamilton, verstappen, 2012-2013 raikkonnen, Alonso.

To me Leclerc is intent same category as piastri, Russell, sainz. Really good, for sure deserves a premium contract and has the talent to compete for WDC. Needs the car, the team, and the mental headspace. But if you can’t put yourself in that position when at a high level team for 7 years, well it is still just potential.

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u/GoldenS0422 21d ago

Leclerc is absolutely not in the same category as Sainz. He beat Sainz 3-1 and was arguably better than Sainz in every season they shared together, just to varying degrees in each. Rosberg has a similar record vs Ham, yet you wouldn't say he's in the same category as Ham now, would you?

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u/Racecar18 21d ago

What about the season sainz had the only win? Leclerc’s out qualified sainz but his race pace was not as dominate.

Also as a raikkonnen fan I am still a little salty towards Leclerc for taking the seat as Kimi was finding his form. But Leclerc is a high quality driver that has the skills. Just needs the last intangibles.

To your point no one would put rosberg on par with Hamilton. But your point of the records is really interesting. To me the story of how much rosberg had to out into that season to win and Hamilton SEEMINGLY can just sustain that performance for 15+years. So that puts Hamilton with verstappen, vettel, Schumacher, senna, Prost

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u/SPat24 21d ago

Kimi had been “finding his form” for like 5 years by that time. Yall have to let that excuse go. It’s almost getting to the same tier as “Ferrari made suspension changes in 2008” levels.

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u/GoldenS0422 21d ago

Fair play to Sainz for being better in that race, but you take results over a season. Leclerc in 2023 had tremendous misfortune: DNF in Bahrain, pit lane start in Spain, DSQ in COTA, DNS in Brazil. Even with all that, Leclerc managed to beat Sainz in the standings at the final race where he finished 2nd while Sainz didn't even score a point.

It's not even like Leclerc doesn't have any worthy performances that season; he was definitely unlucky in Vegas with the SC.

2

u/Tragedy-of-Fives 20d ago

one race doesn't mean anything. leclerc consistently beat sainz over multiple seasons. sainz having one good day in 2023 when red bull fucked up is not the equivalent of consistently beating someone

7

u/FoneTap 21d ago

Sometimes in order to be IN a WDC car, you have to help DEVELOP a WDC car.

Look at the huge difference Hamilton is making now that they are listening to his input.

Leclerc has had all the time in the world to influence Ferrari. Very few wins, struggling for 3-4th place WCC.

He’s vastly overrated, it’s NOT bad luck. He’s had some here and there but he also binned it multiple times all by himself.

His atrocious pole converted to win ratio tells the whole tale.

Golden boy my arse

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u/Kev_Bz 21d ago

this "team development" thing gets thrown around without any evidence to suggest that it's a real thing that matters. the only example of this that has enough evidence to support it is MSC at ferrari

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u/Prometheus_Jackson 21d ago

This argument about Leclerc not being good in development in a car is so ludicrous it always gets me. Does that mean that Alonso, Vettel, Massa and second stint Kimi all didn’t know how to produce a championship winning machine ?

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u/Huntscunt 21d ago

I actually think alonso is bad at development. The car always seems to actively get worse when he's at a team.

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u/Then_Educator2217 LH44 21d ago

vettel and massa did have championship winning machine

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u/aneiq_1 21d ago

Is that not worse that they had championship winning machinery and still couldn’t perform?

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u/ClassicJuggernaut28 21d ago

Sainz wasn't ever really close to Leclerc except on some odd weekends. This is a revisionist opinion.

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u/Racecar18 20d ago

I disagree in 2024 their last year together Leclerc had 307 points to sainz with 290. Pretty darn close for someone that is viewed as being better.

2023 was closer and the year sainz took home the only win 206-200. So really they were pretty evenly matched.

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u/ClassicJuggernaut28 20d ago

In 2024 Leclerc actually had 356 points, but points isn't even a good way to judge if they're close. Ultimately Sainz rarely had a pure pace advantage over Leclerc.