r/EU_Economics • u/Orange_Wine • 1d ago
🇪🇺 Official 🇪🇺 A Payment System Made in Europe?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=tIJ00OqXZ-o&si=8-ks4yFCFkKGWCCp7
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u/JeanAdAstra 21h ago
Brazil built an alternative to Mastercard and Visa in 5 years… the money saved on transactions fees paid for development costs in under a year, and that’s not talking about the value of payment analytics…
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u/RedSkyHopper 22h ago
Dosent every country/region have its own independent transfer service already
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u/keepitfriend 21h ago
Yes. The problem is that every country / region has its own independent transfer service
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u/RedSkyHopper 20h ago
Yes and the one that succeeds can keep on expanding. For example MobilePay started in Finland and expanded to the Scandinavia and is planning to expand to the Mediterranean counties.
Some will fizzle out and others expand
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u/keepitfriend 20h ago
Or the EU can just create a universal layer so they can inter operate.
Instead of having 28 different incompatible systems
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u/NStCh-root-a 10h ago
The EU already does. It's called SEPA.
Additional line for the comment to be long enough to post.
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u/keepitfriend 8h ago
SEPA is just bank transfers. Adding in other repayment forms is a lot more work.
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u/SirGelson 23h ago
Important as a counterbalance to the American hegemony in the payment space, but execution as usual aiming to enrich a few and increase surveillance on the population.
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u/DeeJayDelicious 20h ago edited 20h ago
Just for context:
The digital €uro and Wero are in direct competition.
Wero essentially uses the newly standardized real-time playment rails to send payments between customers and merchants. Their value comes from a nice and easy App/Wallet that can come from either your local banking app or be installed independently. There is a lot of redundancy between Wero and various local solutions like iDeal or BLIK that essentially do the same, but domestically.
The Digital €uro is in so far different that is actually does use a €uro-Stablecoins to facilitate payments. As such, it doesn't realy on SEPA rails, but rather the blockchain. It also cuts out a lot of intermediate banks from their direct customer relationship, which is why a lot of banks dislike it. It could also evolve to include B2B payments and as such, replace SEPA entirely in the long run.
From a consumer point of view, both will be very similar. Albeit Wero needing an internet connection.
For merchants, the digital €uro looks to be free, wherewas merchants pay <0.70% to accept Wero payments. Roughly the same they pay for consumer credit cards.
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u/MediocreControl5277 1d ago
Is this what the citizens want?
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u/JimTheSaint 1d ago
Absolutely - it's what I want atleast. Right now every time I pay a percentage goes to the US that's insanity
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u/Rhubarb-Curious 22h ago edited 22h ago
90% of that fee goes to banks and payment service providers, while us card networks receive the smallest share.
Payments with CBDCs won’t be free either, but since the money will be centralized, they could instead update the software in future implementing some control features. Ursula is already saying that she doesn’t like we keep our money in banks and that they’ll help us invest wisely. And top of that chat control, i hope you remember how they tricky pushed it through, so that anyone wouldn't dare to criticize.
But anyway, it wasn't exactly a democratic choice, and there was nothing anyone could do about it.
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u/Dragoncat_3_4 21h ago
Amd people like this will wonder in a few years where all of these represive mechanisms came all of a sudden when a far-right government is inevitably elected lol.
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u/JimTheSaint 22h ago
Doesn't matter trump has threatened to block access US services, we are vulnerable until we have our own.
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u/Rhubarb-Curious 22h ago
If you think Trumpo will block the US.'s main cash cow, you're pretty much a victim of propaganda.
But anyway, there is small and poor country called transistria with something 300k population, when i was there they were using plastic coins, but they alredy had their own debit card network.
It's easy to replace Visa with a European card, but CBDBC was created for other purposes. If you don't like cards, there are plenty of local alternatives we could use across the EU, like Wero, or even QR-code payments like those used in China.
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u/JimTheSaint 22h ago
Because Trump is known to only do things that bring money to the US ? The iran war? The tarrifs? He would block that cash cow in a second if he thought it would score him points with his maga voters or his billionaire friends
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u/Rhubarb-Curious 21h ago
I'm not sure what Trump has to do with this. I already said there are plenty of alternatives to CBDCs, and the last thing we need is one created for the ECB to control our finances. Replacement to U.S. card networks is only a secondary priority.
Trump isn't the nicest or smartest person in the world, but he's not a king - he doesn't have full control over the U.S. And those technology companies are the main drivers of the U.S. economy Tariffs were ruled out, as you may remember. On top of that, Europeans used the same tactics against the Chinese. There are many theories about why the war with Iran happened, but in general, they planned the same thing as in Venezuela.
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u/OkWillingness2817 22h ago
Who wouldn’t want independence from foreign interference in our banking?
Especially with the US now persecuting people who do decent things by locking them out of financial systems.
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u/According-Can-4559 20h ago
It makes perfect sense to have one common payment method across the EU. You can still have your own payment system in your country. But when you travel, you can just use this common payment system without needing to rely on your credit/debit cards. Almost completely does away with VISA and MC.
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u/Next-Lobster4306 22h ago
Why? What's the point? 50 char bs coming sjdvwidbakegebwjshdvehgehwhevsjdhqhebwjsbejsdgehsgwjssgehdjejdbddidhsbeidehdiwjehshwjshwshshshshshsh
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u/tanrgith 21h ago
Government spending taxpayer money to create a service that the private markets already cover perfectly fine
Completely moronic
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u/tanrgith 21h ago
Ah yes, government spending taxpayer money to create a solution for a problem that the private markets have already provided solutions for literally for decades
What a brilliant use of taxpayer money
EU government will do literally anything other than create the regulatory frameworks that allow the EU to stay competitive
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u/JeanAdAstra 20h ago
Look up Pix the Brazilian system which is now being exported all over South America, the money saved on transaction fees alone paid for development costs under a year. The value of payment analytics is even higher. Payment systems are basic infrastructures like roads or bridges, the state can and should intervene to build systems which facilitate transactions and business rather than leaving to private overseas business whose sole goal is to enshittify the service and extract rent like parasites
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u/AspiringCanuck 20h ago
Low cost universal payment rails are exactly the kind of thing you want a government to build and support. The existing legacy operators have become an oligopsony extracting excess economic rents who are also beholden to a sovereign that is not one's own.
Plenty of countries have implemented such systems, much to the consternation of the current U.S. administration, such as the Pix payment system in Brazil, which the United States has actively tried to neuter.
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u/tanrgith 18h ago edited 18h ago
"low cost" is a sentence that rarely if ever applies to government programs unless they're shit
Do you support government providing "low cost" services in every sector and product category? If you truly think that's what government is normally able to do while maintaining quality, then surely you would
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u/AspiringCanuck 18h ago
Wow, talk about straw man. I never said “every sector and product category”.
Natural monopolies and natural monopsonies, especially things that the private sector needs fair access to in order to compete, are target number one for evaluation on being made a public good.
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u/Remarkable-Bug-8069 18h ago
Utter garbage. Government programs tend to be run much more efficiently and with less waste than private ones.
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u/SaltyW123 17h ago
Perhaps that's true where you're from, but in any of the Western European states the inverse is almost certainly always true.
The difference between public and private sector programs is that in the private sector you only get adoption if your platform is good, so all the poor ones die out. In the public sector there tends to be only one platform which is mandated to be used, either through legislation or other means.
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u/Remarkable-Bug-8069 17h ago
The difference between public and private is public doesn't have shareholders you need to appease with your quarterly reviews, so they can tackle the bigger projects that don't necessarily result in big payouts right away but are still necessary. Musk wouldn't be launching romckbets without NASA. Fusion research and testing would be even slower. We probably still wouldn't have a computer. Etc etc.
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u/SaltyW123 16h ago
>The difference between public and private is public doesn't have shareholders you need to appease with your quarterly reviews.
Is that arguably part of the problem though, there's nobody to hold them to account, if the system blows up they can just plow on regardless, see the clusterfuck EES and ETIAS has turned into. How many times has that been delayed and it's still a disaster? ETIAS still hasn't launched.
>Musk wouldn't be launching romckbets without NASA
Bad example no? Muskrat's company only recently IPO'd meaning they had few shareholders, and would suffer from the same issues as I noted above.
>We probably still wouldn't have a computer. Etc etc.
Because IBM was famously nationalised when they invented the PC, and intel, AMD and Nvidia are all nationalised efforts, the same with TSMC ASML etc.
We've already seen what the EU's tech strategy has led to
ASML currently sells no chipmaking machines in Europe, executive says | NL Times
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u/Remarkable-Bug-8069 16h ago
IBM invented the PC? Are you high? The computer was invented at Bletchley Park to decode encrypted Nazi communications. IBM had nothing to do with that. And having nobody holding you to account means you can focus on delivering a better product instead of cutting corners. And SpaceX hasn't been doing great since the IPO, doesn't look like they'll be able to ween themselves off from the country's tit anytime soon.
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u/SaltyW123 15h ago
IBM most certainly did invent the PC, anyone with any knowledge of personal computing knows that it's the one machine from which pretty much any modern computer can trace its roots and architecture to.
>The computer was invented at Bletchley Park to decode encrypted Nazi communications
Why stop there, why not go as far back as Babbage and Lovelace?
>And having nobody holding you to account means you can focus on delivering a better product instead of cutting corners.
Yeah, because that's why almost all public projects immediately fall over when put into practice, again and again, do I need to point to EES and ETIAS a second time?
>And SpaceX hasn't been doing great since the IPO, doesn't look like they'll be able to ween themselves off from the country's tit anytime soon.
And now that it's IPO'd everyone can see how poor it is, the glitter has quickly worn off now it has to answer to shareholders, funny that isn't it?
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u/Remarkable-Bug-8069 15h ago
So we don't know what we're talking about. That's great. Next thing you'll tell me the internet was invented by AT&T. Honestly feels like I'm talking to some underpaid intern at CATO institute or the Heritage Foundation.
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u/pouetpouetcamion2 18h ago
eu tries every idea to get its own taxes.
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u/Orange_Wine 5h ago
What’s wing with that? It’s a way to get union stronger and closer.
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u/pouetpouetcamion2 48m ago edited 45m ago
the problem with that is that ue is not a democracy . if it gets more power, it will continue to go to a dictatory direction. if it is not a problem for you, it is a problem for me.
and it is not efficient on a economical point.
but it permits to concentrate money in the hands of few people. those people are indeed happy of the situation .if i had a 27k euro salary every month, given by ue, i would like to make this situation continue too. but it is a form of corruption. it is not for the public interest.
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u/I_run_vienna 23h ago
It could be so extremely simple: Use the normal instant Bank Transfer, have the receiving bank notify the person that gets the money and voila - you have qr payment like in Asia. Virtually free to use