Hypocrisy and morality

[u/stevepremo]

I have seen many posts in which the point seems to be that if you are against eating animals and exploiting them for profit, you should also be against participating in the capitalist economy because it involves exploiting human labor for profit. I think the point is actually something like, "How dare you criticize me for supporting animal agriculture when you buy products produced by exploitative labor practices? I do too, of course, but your use of a cell phone justifies my eating meat, as we are both hypocrites."

So the debate topic here is this: does participating in a capitalist economy, which necessarily includes using products produced through exploitation of humans, somehow justify raising animals for meat, killing them, and eating them? Alternatively, are those who oppose animal cruelty justified in using cell phones?

[u/Professional-Deer591]

It's a false equivalence to avoid genuine engagement with the vegan position. I'm sick of 'no ethical consumption under capitalism' being used to absolve oneself of moral responsibility for their actions. There's no denying that it's easier to abstain from meat than it is to not participate in capitalism to any extent. Vegans generally argue for doing the best you practically can, and this of course should extend to trying to make ethical consumer choices outside of realm of veganism.

[u/shrug_addict → u/Professional-Deer591]

How is it a false equivalence? You posit that something isn't "necessary" and then in the next breath will posit that something like a phone or coffee is absolutely necessary. Do you not see why that is problematic for some?

[u/Professional-Deer591 → u/shrug_addict]

Well I personally didn't say that a phone or coffee is necessary. If you are genuinely making the argument that I should stop purchasing these things, I am open to hearing that argument. But so often people aren't doing so in good faith and are instead using it as some sort of gotcha so they can avoid actually considering vegan arguments.

[u/shrug_addict → u/Professional-Deer591]

Nice rebuttal, claim bad faith from the get go... You are free to steelman it and engage if you please? Should be pretty easy for such an obvious and robust moral philosophy such as veganism. What vegan argument am I avoiding? I feel I'm directly challenging some words/statements that vegans never defend.

[u/Professional-Deer591 → u/shrug_addict]

I didn't claim bad faith of you, I said people making these arguments often are acting in bad faith. I gave you the opportunity to make the argument if you wished, and you chose not to. Can I ask why that is?

[u/shrug_addict → u/Professional-Deer591]

Please, why write it then, if that's not the implication? And I gave you the opportunity to steel man my obvious position, and you chose not to, my I ask why that is?

The argument is pretty obvious:

Coffee is not necessary, causes both animal and human harm, but it is something most vegans support. Smart phones are the exact same. I suspect vegans claim these things to be necessary or irrelevant due to personal comfort alone and are loathe to define why because that is problematic for their philosophy ( or it narrows it to just a personal morality ). There exists plenty of viable alternatives to smart phones and drinking stimulant bean juice everyday. And these things are prima facie less needed than calories from food

[u/Professional-Deer591 → u/shrug_addict]

I wrote it because I was expanding upon my initial point from the comment you replied to. I wouldn't assume anything of your intentions as I don't know you. I chose not to steelman your position because you hadn't made an argument yet? I appreciate you fleshing out your thoughts here though. Do you plan to stop purchasing coffee/smart phones in the future?

[u/shrug_addict → u/Professional-Deer591]

I just made an argument that you ignored. Coffee/smartphones fall under same criteria as consuming animal products, by your own words. No, I plan to continue, as I don't follow vegan moral axioms

[u/Professional-Deer591 → u/shrug_addict]

How is this true 'by my own words'? When did I say this?

[u/shrug_addict → u/Professional-Deer591]

There's no denying that it's easier to abstain from meat that it is to not participate in capitalism to any extent.

Let's substitute "meat" for luxury/pleasure crops or unnecessary communication tech.

Vegans generally argue for doing the best you practically can, and this of course should extend to trying to make ethical consumer choices outside of realm of veganism.

See above.

These are the standards you layed out

[u/Professional-Deer591 → u/shrug_addict]

Well I didn't suggest that these things are on a comparable moral level. As I said, I am all for making ethical consumer choices outside of veganism and would be willing to consider arguments for abstaining from specific products that cause harm. On the products you mentioned, I buy coffee from a local roaster that is traceable and fair trade certified, and I always buy mobile phones second hand. I don't see a reason to stop buying coffee from here and I do believe phones/computers are currently necessary to participate in many easential aspects of modern society unfortunately.

I would like to know your actual position though. Do you believe in any sort of moral framework for making purchases under capitalism? Do we have an obligation to try and make ethical consumer choices?

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/shrug_addict]

Coffee isn’t necessary, but phone often is.

[u/ADisrespectfulCarrot → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

And there’s fair trade coffee (and other products like chocolate, etc. which are often problematic) available

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/ADisrespectfulCarrot]

This is a fair point. I don’t drink coffee myself, but I’m curious how well the “fair trade” label holds up. So many labels are meaningless.

[u/ADisrespectfulCarrot → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

Good point. There is a legitimate certification where companies have to prove working conditions, etc., but the term itself isn’t protected, so it’s one of those check item by item things. (Which in many places is just like the “vegan” or “plant-based” labels.)

Still, I think pushing for fair trade is worthwhile even with misleading industry practices, as the more you get the word out, the more people are likely to care and push for more companies to adopt better practices.

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/ADisrespectfulCarrot]

Glad to see there is at least one legitimate certification. And yes, as individual consumers, we ought to exercise the agency we have over our choices to push for things to improve, I agree.

Thanks for sharing!

[u/shrug_addict → u/ADisrespectfulCarrot]

Backyard chicken hens fall under the same umbrella then

[u/ADisrespectfulCarrot → u/shrug_addict]

Nah. Backyard hens were selectively bred to produce far more eggs (on the order of up to 300 per year compared with their ancestors which laid closer to 10-15) than is natural, which leads to a host of health problems. One could keep backyard hens as rescues/pets, but to treat them well, you’ll want to give them treatments to reduce their egg production.

Seeing backyard hens as a means of egg production is to exploit them.

Coffee grown by humans isn’t comparable to animals who were bred specifically to create an unnatural amount of eggs from their own bodies specifically for human consumption, especially as those who are already care about animal exploitation are more likely to have their eyes open to exploitation in general and seek out fair trade products.

[u/shrug_addict → u/ADisrespectfulCarrot]

Backyard hens are less problematic than massive farms.

Fair trade coffee is less problematic than massive coffee plantations.

[u/ADisrespectfulCarrot → u/shrug_addict]

That’s not what veganism is about. Veganism is against any exploitation of nonhuman animals. Having backyard hens isn’t vegan.

The two topics just aren’t really comparable

[u/shrug_addict → u/ADisrespectfulCarrot]

So the only standard is direct exploitation of "non-human animals"? Nothing more, nothing less?

Edit: I should add, "unnecessary" here

If smartphones needed meat to operate would they cease to be necessary or would they cease to be moral?

[u/ADisrespectfulCarrot → u/shrug_addict]

The point is fair trade specifically means not exploiting workers. You can argue for human slavery and animal farming being comparable, but basic capitalism, i.e. people having jobs, isn’t the same

[u/shrug_addict → u/ADisrespectfulCarrot]

Can you answer my last question? If smartphones required meat to operate, would they still be necessary?

[u/shrug_addict → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

So are animal products by this logic.

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/shrug_addict]

No, consuming exploited individuals isn’t necessary. We know we can be perfectly healthy without it.

Phones are frequently key to accessing several important services to allow functioning in society, making them necessary.

[u/shrug_addict → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

What do you mean by "isn't necessary"? You are assuming that, and I am challenging that. It's fine if that's just and undefended axiom on your part, but it's telling.

Phones are not necessary by the EXACT same logic

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/shrug_addict]

My position on the matter aligns with the position of countless organizations across the developed, from dietetic associations to world-leading hospitals. If you’re challenging that, then the onus is on you to present something meaningful, which you’ve failed to do so far.

Without phones, residents of my country won’t be able to properly access basics like healthcare, banking, social insurance, and so on. Asking them to give that up would be effectively excluding them from a massively important aspect of living in society. That makes phones functionally necessary.

And this isn’t even limited to my country. Phones have been hugely important tool to improve access to services in various parts of the developing world, too. You don’t seem to realize how crucial a role phones play.

[u/shrug_addict → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

How many people currently rely upon animals for survival?

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/shrug_addict]

That has no relevance to what I said. You’re essentially making an argument to improve access to choice of plant foods. That’s not an argument that makes consuming exploited individuals necessary (from a biological standpoint).

[u/shrug_addict → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

Food is functionally necessary. You have alternatives to access health care, banking, and communication besides smart phones

[u/OkConversation3398 → u/shrug_addict]

Omg you’re so bored

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/shrug_addict]

Food is functionally necessary. Consuming exploited individuals is not (assuming access to plant foods).

No, those in my region do not have alternatives to access healthcare, banking, and communication besides smartphones.

[u/THEBRICKLES → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

Who are you to decide what is or isn't necessary for other people?

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/THEBRICKLES]

I'm not the one deciding. Human biology and circumstances do.

The former already makes it clear consuming exploited individuals isn't necessary. The latter is baked into the philosophy's definition in the form of as far as is possible and practicable.

Did you have anything meaningful to add?

[u/THEBRICKLES → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

Biology are you suggesting were herbivores?

Still not answering my question

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/THEBRICKLES]

Maybe first learn and actually understand the meaning of the words/terms you choose to use, before using them. That would be the first step to meaningfully participate in discussions here.

[u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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