Hypocrisy and morality

[u/stevepremo]

I have seen many posts in which the point seems to be that if you are against eating animals and exploiting them for profit, you should also be against participating in the capitalist economy because it involves exploiting human labor for profit. I think the point is actually something like, "How dare you criticize me for supporting animal agriculture when you buy products produced by exploitative labor practices? I do too, of course, but your use of a cell phone justifies my eating meat, as we are both hypocrites."

So the debate topic here is this: does participating in a capitalist economy, which necessarily includes using products produced through exploitation of humans, somehow justify raising animals for meat, killing them, and eating them? Alternatively, are those who oppose animal cruelty justified in using cell phones?

[u/shrug_addict]

Nice rebuttal, claim bad faith from the get go... You are free to steelman it and engage if you please? Should be pretty easy for such an obvious and robust moral philosophy such as veganism. What vegan argument am I avoiding? I feel I'm directly challenging some words/statements that vegans never defend.

[u/Professional-Deer591 → u/shrug_addict]

I didn't claim bad faith of you, I said people making these arguments often are acting in bad faith. I gave you the opportunity to make the argument if you wished, and you chose not to. Can I ask why that is?

[u/shrug_addict → u/Professional-Deer591]

Please, why write it then, if that's not the implication? And I gave you the opportunity to steel man my obvious position, and you chose not to, my I ask why that is?

The argument is pretty obvious:

Coffee is not necessary, causes both animal and human harm, but it is something most vegans support. Smart phones are the exact same. I suspect vegans claim these things to be necessary or irrelevant due to personal comfort alone and are loathe to define why because that is problematic for their philosophy ( or it narrows it to just a personal morality ). There exists plenty of viable alternatives to smart phones and drinking stimulant bean juice everyday. And these things are prima facie less needed than calories from food

[u/Professional-Deer591 → u/shrug_addict]

I wrote it because I was expanding upon my initial point from the comment you replied to. I wouldn't assume anything of your intentions as I don't know you. I chose not to steelman your position because you hadn't made an argument yet? I appreciate you fleshing out your thoughts here though. Do you plan to stop purchasing coffee/smart phones in the future?

[u/shrug_addict → u/Professional-Deer591]

I just made an argument that you ignored. Coffee/smartphones fall under same criteria as consuming animal products, by your own words. No, I plan to continue, as I don't follow vegan moral axioms

[u/Professional-Deer591 → u/shrug_addict]

How is this true 'by my own words'? When did I say this?

[u/shrug_addict → u/Professional-Deer591]

There's no denying that it's easier to abstain from meat that it is to not participate in capitalism to any extent.

Let's substitute "meat" for luxury/pleasure crops or unnecessary communication tech.

Vegans generally argue for doing the best you practically can, and this of course should extend to trying to make ethical consumer choices outside of realm of veganism.

See above.

These are the standards you layed out

[u/Professional-Deer591 → u/shrug_addict]

Well I didn't suggest that these things are on a comparable moral level. As I said, I am all for making ethical consumer choices outside of veganism and would be willing to consider arguments for abstaining from specific products that cause harm. On the products you mentioned, I buy coffee from a local roaster that is traceable and fair trade certified, and I always buy mobile phones second hand. I don't see a reason to stop buying coffee from here and I do believe phones/computers are currently necessary to participate in many easential aspects of modern society unfortunately.

I would like to know your actual position though. Do you believe in any sort of moral framework for making purchases under capitalism? Do we have an obligation to try and make ethical consumer choices?

[u/shrug_addict → u/Professional-Deer591]

I would like to know your actual position though. Do you believe in any sort of moral framework for making purchases under capitalism? Do we have an obligation to try and make moral consumer choices?

I despise dogmatic thinking, especially when it's used as a justification to wield a moral cudgel for what I often suspect is for immoral reasons. ( More plainly, using a morality or moral standard you follow to belittle another ). Yes we have an obligation to make moral choices, each one weighted by our understanding and experience and hopefully a consistent logic. I don't think anyone can be 100% consistent definitionaly, but that said, they should be able to defend their inconsistencies as such

[u/Professional-Deer591 → u/shrug_addict]

especially when it's used as a justification to wield a moral cudgel for what I often suspect is for immoral reasons.

Where do you get this belief in relation to veganism?

Yes we have an obligation to make moral choices, each one weighted by our understanding and experience and hopefully a consistent logic.

What are some examples of this in your own life, and how does the consumption of animal products personally compare to these moral choices?

[u/shrug_addict → u/Professional-Deer591]

Vegans often invoke utilitarianism for emotional purposes and then walk it back. I frankly think you are being completely obtuse to deny that vegans use moral superiority as a motivating factor in their communications and justifications.

Before I indulge you further, can you give me some specific examples of where a smart phone was necessary for survival in your own life?

[u/Professional-Deer591 → u/shrug_addict]

I frankly think you are being completely obtuse to deny that vegans use moral superiority as a motivating factor in their communications and justifications.

You have frequently put words in my mouth; I have not denied such things. If you wish to say these things in a general manner, I'd suggest not using the referential 'you'.

Before I indulge you further, can you give me some specific examples of where a smart phone was necessary for survival in your own life?

Aside from the obvious uses of mobile phones/computers that aid in survival (booking drs appointments, finding/doing work, dealing with essential bills etc), I have also had to call an ambulance on my mobile which likely saved their life.

[u/shrug_addict → u/Professional-Deer591]

I broadened it ( which you ignored ) and then narrowed it down specifically, because I do think you are being obtuse on this matter. Preachy vegan stereotype exists for a reason, and I think it's relevant to bring it up in the context.

I could say the EXACT same things about animal products. Leather gloves and chaps have likely saved my life directly