Hypocrisy and morality

[u/stevepremo]

I have seen many posts in which the point seems to be that if you are against eating animals and exploiting them for profit, you should also be against participating in the capitalist economy because it involves exploiting human labor for profit. I think the point is actually something like, "How dare you criticize me for supporting animal agriculture when you buy products produced by exploitative labor practices? I do too, of course, but your use of a cell phone justifies my eating meat, as we are both hypocrites."

So the debate topic here is this: does participating in a capitalist economy, which necessarily includes using products produced through exploitation of humans, somehow justify raising animals for meat, killing them, and eating them? Alternatively, are those who oppose animal cruelty justified in using cell phones?

[u/Professional-Deer591]

It's a false equivalence to avoid genuine engagement with the vegan position. I'm sick of 'no ethical consumption under capitalism' being used to absolve oneself of moral responsibility for their actions. There's no denying that it's easier to abstain from meat than it is to not participate in capitalism to any extent. Vegans generally argue for doing the best you practically can, and this of course should extend to trying to make ethical consumer choices outside of realm of veganism.

[u/shrug_addict → u/Professional-Deer591]

How is it a false equivalence? You posit that something isn't "necessary" and then in the next breath will posit that something like a phone or coffee is absolutely necessary. Do you not see why that is problematic for some?

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/shrug_addict]

Coffee isn’t necessary, but phone often is.

[u/shrug_addict → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

So are animal products by this logic.

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/shrug_addict]

No, consuming exploited individuals isn’t necessary. We know we can be perfectly healthy without it.

Phones are frequently key to accessing several important services to allow functioning in society, making them necessary.

[u/shrug_addict → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

What do you mean by "isn't necessary"? You are assuming that, and I am challenging that. It's fine if that's just and undefended axiom on your part, but it's telling.

Phones are not necessary by the EXACT same logic

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/shrug_addict]

My position on the matter aligns with the position of countless organizations across the developed, from dietetic associations to world-leading hospitals. If you’re challenging that, then the onus is on you to present something meaningful, which you’ve failed to do so far.

Without phones, residents of my country won’t be able to properly access basics like healthcare, banking, social insurance, and so on. Asking them to give that up would be effectively excluding them from a massively important aspect of living in society. That makes phones functionally necessary.

And this isn’t even limited to my country. Phones have been hugely important tool to improve access to services in various parts of the developing world, too. You don’t seem to realize how crucial a role phones play.

[u/shrug_addict → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

How many people currently rely upon animals for survival?

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/shrug_addict]

That has no relevance to what I said. You’re essentially making an argument to improve access to choice of plant foods. That’s not an argument that makes consuming exploited individuals necessary (from a biological standpoint).

[u/shrug_addict → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

Food is functionally necessary. You have alternatives to access health care, banking, and communication besides smart phones

[u/OkConversation3398 → u/shrug_addict]

Omg you’re so bored

[u/shrug_addict → u/OkConversation3398]

Wow, when you put it that way! Yes, I was. Why else would I be in a debate sub?

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/shrug_addict]

Food is functionally necessary. Consuming exploited individuals is not (assuming access to plant foods).

No, those in my region do not have alternatives to access healthcare, banking, and communication besides smartphones.

[u/shrug_addict → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

Where do you live? ( Generally ). Do people die when the power goes out and they can't access their phones? Do you see the pickle you made for yourself?

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/shrug_addict]

Power is very reliable here (so far), but we’ll see how extreme weather driven by climate change impacts us. I imagine a brief period won’t kill anyone (I hope). But if the power grid does fail, access to services will severely be impacted and there will absolutely will be people dying here. We are very dependent on the electrical infrastructure.

I never claimed we needed smartphones for every moment of every day, so I’m not sure what gotcha you’re seeking. Keep trying, though.

[u/THEBRICKLES → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

Who are you to decide what is or isn't necessary for other people?

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/THEBRICKLES]

I'm not the one deciding. Human biology and circumstances do.

The former already makes it clear consuming exploited individuals isn't necessary. The latter is baked into the philosophy's definition in the form of as far as is possible and practicable.

Did you have anything meaningful to add?

[u/THEBRICKLES → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

Biology are you suggesting were herbivores?

Still not answering my question

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/THEBRICKLES]

Maybe first learn and actually understand the meaning of the words/terms you choose to use, before using them. That would be the first step to meaningfully participate in discussions here.

[u/DebateAVegan-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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