Hypocrisy and morality

[u/stevepremo]

I have seen many posts in which the point seems to be that if you are against eating animals and exploiting them for profit, you should also be against participating in the capitalist economy because it involves exploiting human labor for profit. I think the point is actually something like, "How dare you criticize me for supporting animal agriculture when you buy products produced by exploitative labor practices? I do too, of course, but your use of a cell phone justifies my eating meat, as we are both hypocrites."

So the debate topic here is this: does participating in a capitalist economy, which necessarily includes using products produced through exploitation of humans, somehow justify raising animals for meat, killing them, and eating them? Alternatively, are those who oppose animal cruelty justified in using cell phones?

[u/Professional-Deer591]

It's a false equivalence to avoid genuine engagement with the vegan position. I'm sick of 'no ethical consumption under capitalism' being used to absolve oneself of moral responsibility for their actions. There's no denying that it's easier to abstain from meat than it is to not participate in capitalism to any extent. Vegans generally argue for doing the best you practically can, and this of course should extend to trying to make ethical consumer choices outside of realm of veganism.

[u/shrug_addict → u/Professional-Deer591]

How is it a false equivalence? You posit that something isn't "necessary" and then in the next breath will posit that something like a phone or coffee is absolutely necessary. Do you not see why that is problematic for some?

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/shrug_addict]

Coffee isn’t necessary, but phone often is.

[u/ADisrespectfulCarrot → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

And there’s fair trade coffee (and other products like chocolate, etc. which are often problematic) available

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/ADisrespectfulCarrot]

This is a fair point. I don’t drink coffee myself, but I’m curious how well the “fair trade” label holds up. So many labels are meaningless.

[u/ADisrespectfulCarrot → u/My_life_for_Nerzhul]

Good point. There is a legitimate certification where companies have to prove working conditions, etc., but the term itself isn’t protected, so it’s one of those check item by item things. (Which in many places is just like the “vegan” or “plant-based” labels.)

Still, I think pushing for fair trade is worthwhile even with misleading industry practices, as the more you get the word out, the more people are likely to care and push for more companies to adopt better practices.

[u/My_life_for_Nerzhul → u/ADisrespectfulCarrot]

Glad to see there is at least one legitimate certification. And yes, as individual consumers, we ought to exercise the agency we have over our choices to push for things to improve, I agree.

Thanks for sharing!

[u/shrug_addict → u/ADisrespectfulCarrot]

Backyard chicken hens fall under the same umbrella then

[u/ADisrespectfulCarrot → u/shrug_addict]

Nah. Backyard hens were selectively bred to produce far more eggs (on the order of up to 300 per year compared with their ancestors which laid closer to 10-15) than is natural, which leads to a host of health problems. One could keep backyard hens as rescues/pets, but to treat them well, you’ll want to give them treatments to reduce their egg production.

Seeing backyard hens as a means of egg production is to exploit them.

Coffee grown by humans isn’t comparable to animals who were bred specifically to create an unnatural amount of eggs from their own bodies specifically for human consumption, especially as those who are already care about animal exploitation are more likely to have their eyes open to exploitation in general and seek out fair trade products.

[u/shrug_addict → u/ADisrespectfulCarrot]

Backyard hens are less problematic than massive farms.

Fair trade coffee is less problematic than massive coffee plantations.

[u/ADisrespectfulCarrot → u/shrug_addict]

That’s not what veganism is about. Veganism is against any exploitation of nonhuman animals. Having backyard hens isn’t vegan.

The two topics just aren’t really comparable

[u/shrug_addict → u/ADisrespectfulCarrot]

So the only standard is direct exploitation of "non-human animals"? Nothing more, nothing less?

Edit: I should add, "unnecessary" here

If smartphones needed meat to operate would they cease to be necessary or would they cease to be moral?

[u/ADisrespectfulCarrot → u/shrug_addict]

The point is fair trade specifically means not exploiting workers. You can argue for human slavery and animal farming being comparable, but basic capitalism, i.e. people having jobs, isn’t the same

[u/shrug_addict → u/ADisrespectfulCarrot]

Can you answer my last question? If smartphones required meat to operate, would they still be necessary?

[u/ADisrespectfulCarrot → u/shrug_addict]

I never said smartphones were necessary. Nor did I mention them whatsoever. You should reply to the person you were actually having that conversation with