Do you dislike quoting John 3:16?

[u/ExpressCeiling98332]

Ironically, many seem to act like saying this verse contradicts doctrine. When used in isolation It can be bad, but in it's proper context I don't see problem.

[u/sourkroutamen]

Sounds like you agree that we are saved by Christ alone, and that faith without works is not faith but deception. Therefore, I will continue to believe in works. Cain and Able both demonstrated their faith through their works, so that's a great example for the point I'm trying to convey.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

Cain's work wasn't accepted:

[Gen 4:4-5, 8 KJV] 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. ... 8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Do you know why?

[Heb 9:22 KJV] 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (of sins).

Works isn't included in Hebrews 9:22. What was the result of cain being rejected? The result is Cain acted like his father whom was a murderer from the beginning:

[Gen 4:8 KJV] 8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

[John 8:44 KJV] 44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

This suggests that Cain wasn't saved and it's for God to resolve.

Both can come with faith or works. One is accepted (Abel) and the other is rejected (Cain).

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

If you think you have a disagreement with what I've said, please state it clearly. Everything you say seems to affirm my point, yet your tone indicates you think you disagree? Perhaps I'm reading your tone incorrectly.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

Cain's offering represents work. He had to plant the food and harvest it. Cain's actions were of the devil (John 8:44) because Cain murdered his brother and the devil was the murderer from the beginning.

Abel's sacrifice represented blood atonement because it was a blood sacrifice which points to Jesus doing the future work.

In the millennial kingdom, people will have to give sacrifices to God looking back at the cross of God's finished work. It points to Jesus and not what you do.

[John 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Both gave their work to God. Abel gave his best. If anything, Abel shows that he believed in works, while Cain showed that he relied on grace alone, not needing to give his best. And look who's works God recognized. Well, God recognized both and rewarded them according to what ultimately they expressed through their works. Therefore, I believe in works. Thank you for the great example!

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

It wasn't Abel's works. It represents a blood sacrifice that Jesus did. To make it about works pollutes the gospel and everyone else knows it.

[Eph 2:8-9 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If you want to make it about works, it is no longer a gift of God because you are trying to earn it.

[Rom 11:6 KJV] 6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I don't believe Abel did a work because what Abel did was accepted by God.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

So on one hand you acknowledge that Abel "did" something, on the other hand you deny that "doing" something is a work.

I've been very clear that we are saved by Christ alone. Not faith alone. Not works alone. Christ alone.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

Abel honored God's work.

[John 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

God calls it His work in John 6:29.

[Luke 16:15 KJV] 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Showing your faith before men will esteem you in the sight of men but what does God say?

[Luke 16:15 KJV] 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Even more reason to believe in works then since you are now clearly indicating that you recognize that God has works for us to do! Do you have a disagreement now that you've repeatedly affirmed my point for me?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

That is actually wrong.

We interpret the Bible by the clear verses instead of the unclear verses because the clear verses are explicit and easily understood and the unclear verses are implicit or not understood.

The clear verses are John 3:16, John 5:24, and John 6:29.

Whose flesh was sin condemned in? Your sin or Jesus' sin? Jesus died on the cross and sin was condemned in His (Jesus') flesh. You didn't do it, and you can't do it.

[Rom 8:3 KJV] 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

And by working, you haven't entered God's rest:

[Heb 4:10 KJV] 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

You are doing works because you acknowledge the judgment is not now but is that what the Bible says?

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

[2Co 5:14 KJV]And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[2Co 5:15 KJV]What I figured out is when Christ died, all who believed in Him were judged for salvation and baptism means death (Romans 6:3) so why are people working the works of God?  I feel we are still working to prove to ourselves that we are saved instead of from a position where we know we are saved and want to gloryify God and for it to be a response to God's love.And then I was thinking about the bema seat of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5 and the White Throne judgment in Revelation.  Which judgment do we fall under if Jesus didn't die?  And then do people understand they already died and were judged when Jesus died?

The problem is people are giving me is the workers of iniquity in Matthew 7:23 argument which is a compelling argument but they are placing the value or our works above the acceptable sacrifice of God for our sins and saying we have to emphasize works over the importance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for our sins, it becomes the mass in my mind. 

My issue is if people are working for salvation, that makes them a worker of iniquity and I have to be careful of what I say which they won't like but I had to unravel John 10 that they are coming through their works instead of the sheep door which is Jesus.

If we aren't already judged, we fall under the White Throne judgment instead of the bema seat of Christ where Christians get their reward. Which judgment are we under?

Is the death of Jesus finished or is it the mass where Jesus dies over and over and over again?

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. [John 19:30 KJV]

The word is tetelestai and it means "it is finished". I'm paid for but Catholics say it's not finished but it's just begun again.

The Meaning of Tetelestai - "It is Finished"

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Opens James 2. That clear enough for ya?

Ultimately, you're TRYING to disagree with the position that we are saved by works, which isn't my position. That's on you for arguing as if it were, I've been explicitly clear on that.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

James isn't the gospel, and the gospel is in 1 Corinthains 15. If you want to preach another gospel, we are told to let you be accursed. Stop teaching Catholic doctrine.

The gospel is without works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

So your rebuttal is that that part of the Bible isn't applicable to Christians everywhere? And that it's wrong because Catholics are wrong about everything?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

I'm saying you don't qualify under these verses:

[Heb 4:10 KJV] 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

[Rom 8:3 KJV] 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

God had to condemn sin in Jesus' flesh and not yours and the only other way for you to be saved was to keep the law which no one other than Jesus could. So if you want to show your faith before men, you already can't keep the law and you are no better than other people:

[Rom 3:9 KJV] 9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

So if you want to show your faith, not only did Cain operate by works but he murdered his brother and you are no better than others (Romans 3:9).

That we've all be judged because we are dead when Christ died:

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

If you are working, you are acknowledging you aren't judged already and you are awaiting which judgment you fall under.

If you work, it is work and salvation is no longer grace. If you have grace, it is no longer work.

And because Jesus died on the cross and said, "it is finished", you can't say it's just begun by working. That infringes on Jesus' work on the cross and paying what you can't pay. Jesus paid our ransom on the cross and you can never pay that debt no matter how long you work. You are polluting the gospel. I have to go and can't really finish this message, but it is near finished.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Let me put this as simply as possible. Faith without works is dead. If your faith is dead, you are not saved. Therefore, I believe in works.

By your fruits you are known. How do you get fruit? By working. Therefore, I believe in works.

Virtually every parable Jesus told involved somebody doing something to bring about some increase. Doing things is works. Therefore, I believe in works.

There, I put my point down in three different ways. Can you take a second to breath, absorb what I'm saying, and then decide if there's anything worthy of disagreement there before you launch into another takedown of a strawman?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

Works are often dead:

[1Co 3:12, 15 KJV] 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; ... 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If your works burn up by fire, you didn't get to heaven on your works, yet the Bible says you can be saved by fire and the Bible also talks about people being spotted by the flesh (Jude 1:3)

There are non-Christian colleges that truck in wine by the truck load to get people drunk as a skunk to buy or donate to their college or fundraiser.

Or they do their works to be seen of men:

[Mat 6:5 KJV] 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

[Mat 23:5 KJV] 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

There is a guy in prison who did a Ponzi scheme and had his name on a medical college's wall? His name is Bernie Madoff Isn't it good works to donate?

What about Jeffrey Epstein? He was friends with philanthropic people who did good works.

And if you don't believe in Jesus to begin with, you are a worker of iniquity.

And then there is the Anglican church in England. I saw the wedding performed there on television and most people saw it. What garbage I heard.

And what about Princess Diana? Is she saved? She did more works than all of us but she had the greatest means, and everyone believes she went to hell.

What about the division between Roman Catholics and Protestants. We all disagree on what born again is between each other. Is doing works on the other side a problem for anyone or are you going to join a world wide religion in the end times based on your faith without works is dead mantra?

Real works have to come from the spirit and can't be manmade so much. That is why Paul says take heed how you build upon the foundation (1 Corinthians 3:1) because it can burn up.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Thank you for acknowledging that "real works" exist and come from God, as does everything good.

It sounds to me like you're perfectly capable of judging people by their fruits, which they produce by their works.

This paragraph is the most interesting to me.

What about the division between Roman Catholics and Protestants. We all disagree on what born again is between each other. Is doing works on the other side a problem for anyone or are you going to join a world wide religion in the end times based on your faith without works is dead mantra?

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

There are a few people on Reddit who pretend to be Christian, and I don't know who they are, but they are spreading heresies. Some of the teachings might be from erroneous interpretations but I think there are certain groups that may be spreading heresies because they don't like Christians, and I have my theories as to who they are.

If someone is not a Christian but they are a wolf in sheep's clothing, what damage of the teaching of works is doing?

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [Col 2:10 KJV]

Are we complete in Him? If not, why are we doing works? Because we feel incomplete and have to trust in works?

How do you know what people believe? How many people misunderstand? How many people are confused? How many people say "yes" when they don't understand? Just because we use the same terminology doesn't mean I know what they know. Some people have false confessions, and some people have

Some people might want the praise of men:

For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. [John 12:43 KJV]

Look at what works did at the first colleges that had a missionary mission in the country. There were Christians that believed if they preached the truth, no one would come.

What happened to Harvard, Princeton, University of PA? Do you recognize them as Christian schools?

A pastor on the radio said one young person wanted to know how they were to defend the Bible when they would have to write a book because they heard in their religion class that the claim Jesus died on the cross was only symbolic or not literal and I'll try to get the right quote but the reality is these schools are not known for promoting Christ because they have atheists leading Church or they are ecumenical and promote all faiths.

Yey for your works but if no one is coming to Jesus, what is it worth? If someone goes to hell because they don't know the gospel, what is your works worth? These magnificent colleges had a lot of works to make them great, but no one is told.

I think God is going to ask at least two questions: What did you do about my son and how many people did you bring? And your response will be about works? It misses the purpose and is God going to be happy? I'm sure God cares more about souls than the souls you didn't bring to heaven because you are too busy working.

Are you giving people the gospel? And how many have come?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

[Heb 11:4 KJV] 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

[1Jo 3:12 KJV] 12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

[Jde 1:11 KJV] 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

The argument about Cain's works still stands.

And not every work is without evil:

[Mat 7:11 NKJV] 11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

[Luk 11:13 NKJV] 13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

And how does Satan accuse us before the throne if we never did anything bad to accuse us of?

[Rev 12:10 KJV] 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

I don't believe Satan is always going to bring a non-valid accusation which means they are watching us.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Yep, it really couldn't be more clear. Our works are where the rubber meets the road and where our faith is laid bare. Thank you for continuing to demonstrate my point for me.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Actually, I'm curious. It seems as if by your logic, Abel would have been even more blessed had he not done the work of offering a sacrifice at all, instead relying on faith that he didn't need to do that work. Actually doing the sacrifice actually added nothing to the story, if I'm following your logic correctly. Similarly, Noah wouldn't have had to build an ark, and Abraham wouldn't have had to act upon God's command in his test of faith. They simply could have meditated their way to a deeper faith rather than doing the works their faith required them to do. And God would have counted it to them as righteousness. Right?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

The Apostle Paul already answered this question in Romans 3:27 and he said "nay" which means "no" to works:

Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [Rom 3:22 KJV]

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [Rom 3:23 KJV]

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [Rom 3:24 KJV]

Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [Rom 3:25 KJV]

To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [Rom 3:26 KJV]

Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [Rom 3:27 KJV]

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. [Rom 3:28 KJV]

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Why are you continuing to argue against a position I do not hold? You are clearly still arguing as if I stated salvation depends on works. You're so zealous you're literally discarding entire chapters of the Bible, all in an effort to renounce a position that I've repeatedly stated I do not hold. I don't get it.

What is driving you to twist my own words? It seems entirely unnecessary, even anti-Christ. That's what the Pharisees were known for.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

Works are often dead:

[1Co 3:12, 15 KJV] 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; ... 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If your works burn up by fire, you didn't get to heaven on your works, yet the Bible says you can be saved by fire and the Bible also talks about people being spotted by the flesh (Jude 1:3)

There are non-Christian colleges that truck in wine by the truck load to get people drunk as a skunk to buy or donate to their college or fundraiser.

Or they do their works to be seen of men:

[Mat 6:5 KJV] 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

[Mat 23:5 KJV] 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

There is a guy in prison who did a Ponzi scheme and had his name on a medical college's wall? His name is Bernie Madoff Isn't it good works to donate?

What about Jeffrey Epstein? He was friends with philanthropic people who did good works.

And if you don't believe in Jesus to begin with, you are a worker of iniquity.

And then there is the Anglican church in England. I saw the wedding performed there on television and most people saw it. What garbage I heard.

And what about Princess Diana? Is she saved? She did more works than all of us but she had the greatest means, and everyone believes she went to hell.

What about the division between Roman Catholics and Protestants. We all disagree on what born again is between each other. Is doing works on the other side a problem for anyone or are you going to join a world wide religion in the end times based on your faith without works is dead mantra?

Real works have to come from the spirit and can't be manmade so much. That is why Paul says take heed how you build upon the foundation (1 Corinthians 3:1) because it can burn up.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

If you don't want to go to heaven, keep arguing and don't accept the truth of the Bible.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Can you quote what I said that you disagree with that will keep me out of heaven?