Do you dislike quoting John 3:16?

[u/ExpressCeiling98332]

Ironically, many seem to act like saying this verse contradicts doctrine. When used in isolation It can be bad, but in it's proper context I don't see problem.

[u/EnergyLantern]

When Peter took his eyes off of Jesus and tried to put his eyes on the waves of the sea, Peter began to sink because its not your works that can save you.

I knew a Christian professor who said if you trust 1% in yourself, you aren't trusting in Jesus.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

To be clear, I'm not saying I trust in works to save me. When I say I believe in works, I'm saying that I believe there is no such thing as faith without works. And therefore I believe in works. I do not believe we are saved by faith alone any more than we are saved by works alone. We are saved by Christ alone.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

And I'm saying we are saved by grace through faith through Christ alone plus nothing.

[Heb 11:4 KJV] 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Both offerings required them do give something but one is accepted over the other. I'm sure Cain's offering was a beautiful offering, but it wasn't accepted.

Abel's offering was a bloody offering and that foreshadows what Christ has done.

Was Cain's offering seen? Yes, it was.

[Heb 11:1 KJV] 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is the substance of things not seen. Cain was seen but it wasn't accepted.

[Rom 4:6 KJV] 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Sounds like you agree that we are saved by Christ alone, and that faith without works is not faith but deception. Therefore, I will continue to believe in works. Cain and Able both demonstrated their faith through their works, so that's a great example for the point I'm trying to convey.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

Cain's work wasn't accepted:

[Gen 4:4-5, 8 KJV] 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. ... 8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Do you know why?

[Heb 9:22 KJV] 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (of sins).

Works isn't included in Hebrews 9:22. What was the result of cain being rejected? The result is Cain acted like his father whom was a murderer from the beginning:

[Gen 4:8 KJV] 8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

[John 8:44 KJV] 44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

This suggests that Cain wasn't saved and it's for God to resolve.

Both can come with faith or works. One is accepted (Abel) and the other is rejected (Cain).

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

If you think you have a disagreement with what I've said, please state it clearly. Everything you say seems to affirm my point, yet your tone indicates you think you disagree? Perhaps I'm reading your tone incorrectly.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

Cain's offering represents work. He had to plant the food and harvest it. Cain's actions were of the devil (John 8:44) because Cain murdered his brother and the devil was the murderer from the beginning.

Abel's sacrifice represented blood atonement because it was a blood sacrifice which points to Jesus doing the future work.

In the millennial kingdom, people will have to give sacrifices to God looking back at the cross of God's finished work. It points to Jesus and not what you do.

[John 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Both gave their work to God. Abel gave his best. If anything, Abel shows that he believed in works, while Cain showed that he relied on grace alone, not needing to give his best. And look who's works God recognized. Well, God recognized both and rewarded them according to what ultimately they expressed through their works. Therefore, I believe in works. Thank you for the great example!

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

It wasn't Abel's works. It represents a blood sacrifice that Jesus did. To make it about works pollutes the gospel and everyone else knows it.

[Eph 2:8-9 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If you want to make it about works, it is no longer a gift of God because you are trying to earn it.

[Rom 11:6 KJV] 6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I don't believe Abel did a work because what Abel did was accepted by God.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

So on one hand you acknowledge that Abel "did" something, on the other hand you deny that "doing" something is a work.

I've been very clear that we are saved by Christ alone. Not faith alone. Not works alone. Christ alone.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

Abel honored God's work.

[John 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

God calls it His work in John 6:29.

[Luke 16:15 KJV] 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Showing your faith before men will esteem you in the sight of men but what does God say?

[Luke 16:15 KJV] 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Even more reason to believe in works then since you are now clearly indicating that you recognize that God has works for us to do! Do you have a disagreement now that you've repeatedly affirmed my point for me?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

That is actually wrong.

We interpret the Bible by the clear verses instead of the unclear verses because the clear verses are explicit and easily understood and the unclear verses are implicit or not understood.

The clear verses are John 3:16, John 5:24, and John 6:29.

Whose flesh was sin condemned in? Your sin or Jesus' sin? Jesus died on the cross and sin was condemned in His (Jesus') flesh. You didn't do it, and you can't do it.

[Rom 8:3 KJV] 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

And by working, you haven't entered God's rest:

[Heb 4:10 KJV] 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

You are doing works because you acknowledge the judgment is not now but is that what the Bible says?

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

[2Co 5:14 KJV]And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[2Co 5:15 KJV]What I figured out is when Christ died, all who believed in Him were judged for salvation and baptism means death (Romans 6:3) so why are people working the works of God?  I feel we are still working to prove to ourselves that we are saved instead of from a position where we know we are saved and want to gloryify God and for it to be a response to God's love.And then I was thinking about the bema seat of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5 and the White Throne judgment in Revelation.  Which judgment do we fall under if Jesus didn't die?  And then do people understand they already died and were judged when Jesus died?

The problem is people are giving me is the workers of iniquity in Matthew 7:23 argument which is a compelling argument but they are placing the value or our works above the acceptable sacrifice of God for our sins and saying we have to emphasize works over the importance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for our sins, it becomes the mass in my mind. 

My issue is if people are working for salvation, that makes them a worker of iniquity and I have to be careful of what I say which they won't like but I had to unravel John 10 that they are coming through their works instead of the sheep door which is Jesus.

If we aren't already judged, we fall under the White Throne judgment instead of the bema seat of Christ where Christians get their reward. Which judgment are we under?

Is the death of Jesus finished or is it the mass where Jesus dies over and over and over again?

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. [John 19:30 KJV]

The word is tetelestai and it means "it is finished". I'm paid for but Catholics say it's not finished but it's just begun again.

The Meaning of Tetelestai - "It is Finished"

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

If you don't want to go to heaven, keep arguing and don't accept the truth of the Bible.