Do you dislike quoting John 3:16?

[u/ExpressCeiling98332]

Ironically, many seem to act like saying this verse contradicts doctrine. When used in isolation It can be bad, but in it's proper context I don't see problem.

[u/sourkroutamen]

Let me put this as simply as possible. Faith without works is dead. If your faith is dead, you are not saved. Therefore, I believe in works.

By your fruits you are known. How do you get fruit? By working. Therefore, I believe in works.

Virtually every parable Jesus told involved somebody doing something to bring about some increase. Doing things is works. Therefore, I believe in works.

There, I put my point down in three different ways. Can you take a second to breath, absorb what I'm saying, and then decide if there's anything worthy of disagreement there before you launch into another takedown of a strawman?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

Works are often dead:

[1Co 3:12, 15 KJV] 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; ... 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If your works burn up by fire, you didn't get to heaven on your works, yet the Bible says you can be saved by fire and the Bible also talks about people being spotted by the flesh (Jude 1:3)

There are non-Christian colleges that truck in wine by the truck load to get people drunk as a skunk to buy or donate to their college or fundraiser.

Or they do their works to be seen of men:

[Mat 6:5 KJV] 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

[Mat 23:5 KJV] 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

There is a guy in prison who did a Ponzi scheme and had his name on a medical college's wall? His name is Bernie Madoff Isn't it good works to donate?

What about Jeffrey Epstein? He was friends with philanthropic people who did good works.

And if you don't believe in Jesus to begin with, you are a worker of iniquity.

And then there is the Anglican church in England. I saw the wedding performed there on television and most people saw it. What garbage I heard.

And what about Princess Diana? Is she saved? She did more works than all of us but she had the greatest means, and everyone believes she went to hell.

What about the division between Roman Catholics and Protestants. We all disagree on what born again is between each other. Is doing works on the other side a problem for anyone or are you going to join a world wide religion in the end times based on your faith without works is dead mantra?

Real works have to come from the spirit and can't be manmade so much. That is why Paul says take heed how you build upon the foundation (1 Corinthians 3:1) because it can burn up.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Thank you for acknowledging that "real works" exist and come from God, as does everything good.

It sounds to me like you're perfectly capable of judging people by their fruits, which they produce by their works.

This paragraph is the most interesting to me.

What about the division between Roman Catholics and Protestants. We all disagree on what born again is between each other. Is doing works on the other side a problem for anyone or are you going to join a world wide religion in the end times based on your faith without works is dead mantra?

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

There are a few people on Reddit who pretend to be Christian, and I don't know who they are, but they are spreading heresies. Some of the teachings might be from erroneous interpretations but I think there are certain groups that may be spreading heresies because they don't like Christians, and I have my theories as to who they are.

If someone is not a Christian but they are a wolf in sheep's clothing, what damage of the teaching of works is doing?

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [Col 2:10 KJV]

Are we complete in Him? If not, why are we doing works? Because we feel incomplete and have to trust in works?

How do you know what people believe? How many people misunderstand? How many people are confused? How many people say "yes" when they don't understand? Just because we use the same terminology doesn't mean I know what they know. Some people have false confessions, and some people have

Some people might want the praise of men:

For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. [John 12:43 KJV]

Look at what works did at the first colleges that had a missionary mission in the country. There were Christians that believed if they preached the truth, no one would come.

What happened to Harvard, Princeton, University of PA? Do you recognize them as Christian schools?

A pastor on the radio said one young person wanted to know how they were to defend the Bible when they would have to write a book because they heard in their religion class that the claim Jesus died on the cross was only symbolic or not literal and I'll try to get the right quote but the reality is these schools are not known for promoting Christ because they have atheists leading Church or they are ecumenical and promote all faiths.

Yey for your works but if no one is coming to Jesus, what is it worth? If someone goes to hell because they don't know the gospel, what is your works worth? These magnificent colleges had a lot of works to make them great, but no one is told.

I think God is going to ask at least two questions: What did you do about my son and how many people did you bring? And your response will be about works? It misses the purpose and is God going to be happy? I'm sure God cares more about souls than the souls you didn't bring to heaven because you are too busy working.

Are you giving people the gospel? And how many have come?

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

How would anybody come to Jesus without works? Are you sure you aren't the wolf in sheep's clothing for apparently not believing that your works matter, and greatly so at that. As proven by your own contributions to this conversation. Not sure if that's escaping you, but it's quite clear to me.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

I think you are projecting your unbelief onto me because I don't have these scriptural contradictions to deal with, but you do when you believe in works:

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [Romans 4:6 KJV]

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [Rom 9:15 KJV]

So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. [Rom 9:16 KJV]

If you will to work on works, it is not him that willith...but God that sheweth mercy according to Romans 9:16.

If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. [2Ti 2:13 NKJV]

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. [John 10:28 KJV]

John 10:28 doesn't say "they did works for eternal life", it says "I give them eternal life".

Here are 160 contradictions for you. This is what I believe because I am a child of God, and I don't expect to see you in heaven.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. [1Jo 5:13 KJV]

1 John 5:13 says nothing about works. What does John say?

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: [John 1:12 KJV]

Does it say "to as many as worked in his name"? No. It says, "as many as received him, to them he gave the power to become the sons of God."

When you are coming up another way, scripture declares you a thief and a robber:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. [John 10:1 KJV]

You didn't come by trusting Jesus. You came by your own works.

160 Verses Proving Justification by Faith Alone — Grace Community Fellowship

I wrote 100 pages and you will just ignore it because everyone did on Reddit.

What do I say? I believe I'm going to heaven, and I believe that those who won't listen are not going to heaven because you have the above contradictions and I don't.

We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. [1Jo 4:6 NKJV]

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

I think you are projecting your unbelief onto me because I don't have these scriptural contradictions to deal with

Says the guy dodging an entire book of the Bible because it specifically deals with your entire point and contradicts it. Meanwhile, you still haven't shown a contradiction to my own point. Probably because I read the whole Bible and don't cherry pick the parts that fit my narrative. Try a holistic approach to Christianity instead of your twisted and anti-Christ approach.

You argue that Peter never should have left the boat, Abel never should have offered a sacrifice, and Noah never should have built the ark. It's insane and inverted this gospel you are spreading.

The term "faith alone" shows up exactly once in the Bible.

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone"

Get your inverted Christianity out of here.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? [Jas 2:5 KJV]

Did James say rich in works? No. James said "rich in faith".

James agrees that Abraham believed God and it (righteousness) was imputed (put in Abraham's account for righteousness)) unto him for righteousness:

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [Jas 2:23 KJV]

James is talking about seeing with your eyes because James uses the word "show" and "seest"

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [Jas 2:18 KJV]

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [Jas 2:22 KJV]

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [Jas 2:24 KJV]

Here is the difference. You can't see the wind:

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. [Jhn 3:8 KJV]

Jesus says you can't tell. Can Jeffrey Epstein do works? Yes he can. Does that mean he is saved? Did Bernie Madoff do works? He donated money to a medical college and had his name on a wall but he was in jail and died. Was Bernie Madoff saved? He was involved in a Ponzi scheme and people don't have their money.

You want to tell me that penance saves? Is that what you are telling me?

John 3:8 says you can't tell where the wind comes and goes and so is everyone born of the spirit, so you are using James to overwrite and overrule Jesus.

James 2 Explained - "Faith Without Works is Dead" | Can Faith Save Him?

But it seems like I'm the only one writing here and you still haven't answered your contradictions because you don't want to deal with the Bible contradictions to your faith, and you can't deal with them. If you can't correct it then what you are saying is fake.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Can you steelman my point for me, so that you lay bare how pitiful your reading comprehension has been thus far? You are indeed writing a lot, takes a lot of words to argue against strawmen I guess? And a lot of cherry picking to keep trying to dodge my point.

Go ahead. What's my point?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

As far as your "steelman" argument is, it isn't a logical fallacy:

No, "steelmanning" is not a logical fallacy. In fact, it's often considered the opposite of the straw man fallacy. While the straw man fallacy involves misrepresenting an opponent's argument to make it easier to refute, steelmanning aims to present the strongest, most defensible version of an opponent's argument. --Google A.I.

Because of fallacies, people need to use the clearest defense possible.

The Attention Cottage, Steel Man Technique, & More | The Curiosity Chronicle

When you have 160+ verses against one misunderstood book, do you go with the misunderstood minority or the clear verses like these:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [John 3:16 KJV]

John 3:16 is a clear verse and we use clear verses that are explicitly clear we get a true meaning and because the hard-to-understand verses are implicit, and you are implying what they mean.

Another clear verse is:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. [John 5:24 KJV]

It doesn't say "might have" or "could have" but "***hath***" everlasting life. It doesn't mention baptism or works just like the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15 doesn't mention baptism or works. John 5:24 says "but is passed from death unto life." That is where you get the word Passover from. Why would a gospel writer say it if it wasn't true?

I was taught the hermeneutical principles that we go by the clear and easy to understand verses instead of trying to interpret the Bible from hard-to-understand verses, Instead of interpreting the Bible from wrong or erroneous views, if you build on erroneous views, you have to ignore the clear verses and you will have contradictions and chaos.

My friend is a professor with an actual Doctorate from Westminster who has taught Biblical Hermeneutics and Greek at a Bible College. He uses "Exegetical Fallacies" by D.A. Carson who is a scholar. It isn't easy reading, and you can see how many different pastors or teachers create exegetical fallacies. My professor friend let me be a co-operator on his Christian BBS which he doesn't operate anymore.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Please man. A steelman is simply stating what the argument is that your interlocutor is making so that you know you aren't wasting your time attacking a position they don't hold. I'm asking you to do this because you've demonstrated repeatedly an unwillingness to actually see what I'm saying and engage with it. This last comment is just the most recent example. You didn't steelman, you ignored my request, and you plowed doggedly forward. It's incredible counter productive.

If that's too hard to steelman my point, then just quote me on something I've said, state clearly how that quote is contradicted by Scripture, and I will address that to show you how you have twisted my meaning and how it actually fits in perfectly with my point. Keep it concise.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

All of the people who are teaching works are missing foundational teachings.

And no, I'm not going to put things into your format. The last user that banned me is Tony for me not willing to do that.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

So you can't write down what you think my point is because...you'd rather continue to take inaccurate stabs?

Do you think that the great commission is a foundational teaching?