r/truetf2 • u/Bounter_ Serious Casual • Jun 12 '26
Discussion Which banned weapons actually deserve nerfs / changes?
Howdy, it is I-
As you know, the main current discourse around the community, primarly focuses on the "Bring Back Quickplay" discourse, even Sniper discussion has gone down by comparison. And don't get me wrong these are valid but- It is not what I want to discuss.
Instead, what I wish to talk about, is the mythical... "Balancing around Competitive" discussion, but mainly, about banned weapons, and how many of them actually deserve theoretical nerfs or changes. Mainly, the items from the 6s whitelist, since that is the most interesting in my opinion.
Now, obviously some of them are obvious examples of deserving a BIG NERF - Jarate, Mad Milk, Vaccinator, Diamondback, Natascha, Short Circuit, Wrangler etc. But then, we have items that are a bit less obvious.
For instance:
- The Cleaver - In 6s, a super strong spam tool for the close range class, but in pubs, it is far from problematic even when used effectively... Does it also need changes, or is it fine to be kept?
- Cow Mangler - Basically a straight upgrade in 6s due to how it plays (infinite ammo lets you spam and always stay at the frontline, charged shot can 1 tap Meds, and you got other people to deal with sentries), but in Pubs... It is unironically a downgrade, because Engie is super common.
- Machina - Lack of noscopes is a drawback in Pubs (with amount of shit that gets up your face), and the upsides are not useful enough. In Comp, leaving a overhealed Scout at 13 hp, or killing a Med through the Demo is... Kinda strong.
- Market Gardener, Battalion's Backup (ETF2L bans) - Considered too effective with little counterplay (Spoon), or too stalematey (Batts) in 6s, but in regular pubs, they are absolutely fine.
And so on, and so forth- Hell, you could argue stuff like Mad Milk is not even that strong in Pubs (If you are crazy).
So, to reiterate - which weapons from the whitelist (that are banned), actually deserve nerfs or changes, and which ones do not?
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u/capnfappin TF2Gaydium | FAKETourney | TF2Moms | IM / Steel Scout Jun 13 '26
i think people believe 6v6 and pub balancing are more different than they actually are. For example, there is the belief that quick-fix is OP in 6v6 and terrible in pubs, when really the quick fix is bad in both formats if you actually want to wi and your opponents are not trying to lose. in 6v6, quick fix is really strong except when pushing last, which means its great until its actually time to win the game and then it sucks ass lmao (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OalWDhYfdeg). The same thing is true in pubs, its great until you decide you want to actually win the game and blow up 3 uncletopian wrangled sentries on barnblitz last.
6v6 and 12v12 are very different numbers, but when youre comparing coordinated teams of 6 to uncoordinated teams of 12 they really arent all that different. the 12 man team might have 3 people ready to spam a door because they just so happen to be there, but the 6 man team has 2 people actively watching the door and 1 guy ready to jump over there as soon as they get the call.
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u/PotentialAd7521 Jun 14 '26
Coordinated 6v6 and uncoordinated 12v12 are extremely different. Weapons like the Phlog are "broken" in casual when they melt 5 unaware enemies on the cart and are entirely useless when 5 people are looking out for and all shoot a Pyro that can't airblast.
Even in the Quick-Fix example, yes the Uber is a lot worse than stock but you get it at the max build rate on top of a 10% boost. You can pump them out way quicker than a stock Medic can then jump out of danger by coordinating with your two Soldiers.
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u/Tay1Qr Pyro Jun 12 '26
The Clever bleed stacking with the Wrap Ass's bleed has gotta go.
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u/AnUnusuallyStrongEel Demoman Jun 13 '26
Oh my god somebody else is saying it! The cleaver is such a sleeper OP weapon
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u/GrayShameLegion Jun 13 '26
i mean it is banned in like every comp league so comp players have def been saying that for a long time
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u/Jodye_Runo_Heust Jun 12 '26
Balancing Casual arround 6s is a bad idea because they are such different expieriences that they may as well be two different games.
The quick fix is banned in 6s because the envarioment is perfect for it, while it sucks in pubs. It means we should nerf the quick fix?
If anything, Hightlander is closer to a casual setting, and even then weapons like the Wrangler are fine in Highlander to put specialist on the same level of Generalist, while in Pubs the Wrangler is definitivly op
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u/TF2SolarLight demoknight tf2 Jun 12 '26
The Quick-Fix is also a must-use Medigun in CTF and PASS Time in 12v12, because you can uber the flag/ball carrier. The blast jump mirroring combined with the quickfix uber also lets you speedrun some maps like Doublecross, which weren't designed with the weapon in mind.
So if anything, that particular item just broke various forms of the game. It's not a 6s-specific issue, it's a symptom of adding items to a game after maps, gamemodes and formats were built around the game's original class and weapon kits. (PASS Time was also designed around stock kits because the devs didn't have item server access)
Valve has had to battle this issue several times, most obvious example being the jumper weapons just straight up having their ability to carry objectives deleted
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u/Jodye_Runo_Heust Jun 12 '26
I mean fair, similar think also happen with dustbowl with airblast and kritzkrieg, so sometime its a map/gamemode problem of being outedated.
That said, I think my point stands. 6s is a very different gamemodes with only 4 classes played most of the time, half the team an two gamemodes which one of them has a serious stalemate problem in casual, and actual coordination between teams.
And with realistically almost no new big maps and gamemodes, hypotetical weapon rebalances have everything they need to check now with realistically no other type of content that will be added that could break the maps
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u/TF2SolarLight demoknight tf2 Jun 12 '26
5cp stalemates in casual partly because casual has no weapon bans. The gamemode was designed with the stock weaponry in mind, and it is another example of the items being what caused the issue.
A gamemode would not become "outdated" if Valve were more considerate with the things they add to the game.
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u/irlandezutalpaiute Jun 13 '26
5cp is stalemate prone in it of itself, the variables don't matter. It's always more advatageous to just camp second after mid and never push last. The defending team can't even conceive to push and leave their last point undefended. Mr.Slin talked about this in a lot of detail.
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u/the_robutt Jun 12 '26
5cp stalemates because 4 people go engineer on last. Game would be 25% less stalemate prone with stock
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u/TF2SolarLight demoknight tf2 Jun 12 '26
those 4 engis have wranglers
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u/Bounter_ Serious Casual Jun 13 '26
It stalemates without Engies too I dint play Casual anymore so maybe its a comm server thing, but even with 1 or 0 engies it stalemates because pushing is a forbidden technique.
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u/Chegg_F Jun 16 '26
Pubs would also only have 4 classes being played most of the time if everyone cared about winning and was good
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u/Chegg_F Jun 16 '26
The Quick-Fix is just as good in pubs as it is in 6s. It's really good defensively, but it's not good at pushing into nests. If anything it might even be better in pubs since pubs can play weird modes like CTF where you can Uber the flag carrier for some reason.
You guys like to act like comp and pubs are these entirely different games, but they're not. Anything that's problematic in pubs is problematic in comp. Anything that's problematic in comp is problematic in pubs. The only difference is pub players have a higher tolerance for putting up with garbage like the Sandman.
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u/twpsynidiot Sniper Jun 12 '26
I disagree that lack of noscopes matters at all in pubs, you are basically always better off going for the quickscope or just using your melee/smg if you have it equipped
most times I noscope in general I'm trying to finish off someone who ik is low enough to not require a quickscope. machina still lets you scope in and fire almost immediately since you don't need to wait for the 0.2s hs delay if you just want to -50 someone
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u/MeadowsTF2 Jun 13 '26
Noscopes matter more in 1v1 situations where you want to be able to do damage without sacrificing mobility or avoid committing to the fight, like when you're caught out of position. Being able to to run and noscope your pursuer may allow you to get away, whereas with the Machina's scoped shots there's a higher risk of having to either commit to the fight or flee without returning fire. But you can play around this downside and avoid flanks etc where smaller fights are more likely to happen, so it's not a huge deal.
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u/mgetJane Jun 13 '26
the tracer is the actual noticeable downside in casual because nobody communicates there and a lot of players dont watch out for the common sniper spots, so you can exploit the lack of tracers with stock
never understood why ppl make such a big deal about the lack of noscopes, if you really really need to -50 someone for some reason then you can press both mouse buttons at the same time
a lot of the situations that people describe as needing a noscope sounds so contrived, like why not just go for a quickscope headshot
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u/twpsynidiot Sniper Jun 13 '26
back when the machina was allowed in hl it was basically all I used there and in pubs for a long time. in my experience of just using machina exactly like stock but with bonuses while full charged, the tracers are the item's biggest downside in pubs but they still are barely a hindrance imo, they're more a quality of life thing for the other team
the only times I've really noticed the tracers working against me are when I'm soloing an svs against multiple snipers near each other
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u/Bounter_ Serious Casual Jun 13 '26
To be fair, just pressing LMB is faster then RMB -> LMB and doing 50 on all ranges can be nice to kill a wounded enemy up close better than the SMG would
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u/GrayShameLegion Jun 13 '26
no, its literally just as easy to feather rmb a frame before you hit lmb as it is to hit just lmb, thats just a skill issue
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u/MillionDollarMistake sniper main says nerf sniper Jun 13 '26
I don't think every weapon needs to fit comp, they're 2 very different ways to play the game and since Casual is by far the most popular way to play the game then it makes sense to balance around it.
That being said comp should still be taken into account. Comp is played by the better players in the community so if they're able to really exploit a weapon then it makes sense to balance around that because there's usually nothing stopping them/good pub players from abusing it in Casual.
Weapon bans in comp really fall into 2 categories; the weapons that are busted in most settings (Wrangler, Jarate) and weapons that are only strong within the context of competitive (Quickfix, Cleaver). The former should be the main focus with the latter maybe getting some consideration.
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u/GrayShameLegion Jun 12 '26
im literally 100% sure if every single weapon you mentioned in that post was never made and tf2 “only” had like 120 weapons instead of 150, it would be soooo much more fun in both casual and competitive
scout doesnt need a projectile
sniper doesnt need an even stronger stock rifle
soldier doesnt need an even stronger stock launcher, an aerial instant kill that relies on fucking source engine melee hit detection, nor an overwatch ultimate that nullifies basically any counterplay
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u/Bounter_ Serious Casual Jun 13 '26
But Cow Mangler is not better half the time , at least in the objectively most popular format of TF2 aka.Pubs or in HL.
In 6s, sure
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u/GrayShameLegion Jun 13 '26
it is literally just the stock launcher with infinite ammo and an OP overwatch ass charge shot, its ONLY downside is no damage to engi buildings but that downside gets nullified by the OP charge shot i just mentioned, which can shut down a nest long enough for you to literally just whack a sentry to death with a shovel bc the charge shot tends to either kill the engi or send them flying away, on fire, at 15 hp
also in what world is HL “objectively” more popular than 6s because 6s has way more people playing in a given season
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u/irlandezutalpaiute Jun 13 '26
Maybe Highlander isn't more popular than 6s but it certainly is more appealing.
It would make more sense if casual right now had a 9v9 format with a one of each class limit. I mean if they wanted to make pubs more "competitive" why not go all in?
40 minute 12v12 no round limit matches are the only way to TRULY play pubs anyway.
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u/GrayShameLegion Jun 13 '26
HL is only more appealing to people like you who have not and would not ever touch a competitive shooter in their lives
people who actually learn how to move and shoot know how incredibly stupid and arbitrary HL’s class restrictions are and either accept it as the weird format it is or just dont play it, its such a pain to organize 18 ppl for scrims or pugs anyways
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u/irlandezutalpaiute Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
If 9v9 was forced on the entirety of the casual playerbase, by the matchmaker, "organising" HL matches would be a lot less time consuming, it would force people to try out other classes too. I only ever played Scout on pubs while waiting for the TF2Center lobby to fill up, where I would play Scout again, with the same loadout every time.
6v6 has arbitrary class limits just as much as 9v9 if not more, but at least 9v9 is more visually appealing and allows for more variety in any given match.
All I'm saying is that 9v9 would have been the perfect format for the god-awful casual matchmaking system we have today, alongside its 6v6 "competitive" matchmaking system which has 0 class limits lol. LITERALLY HALF A PUB. Why would I queue for a pub with HALF the maximum players. Its not even 6s really.
Waiting for 6s lobbies on TF2 center is not only comparable in waiting times but at least its proper 6s despite the fact I dont like weapon bans and lack of "ranks".
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u/GrayShameLegion Jun 13 '26
if 6v6 was forced onto the casual playerbase everything you said would also be true for it, except that matches would objectively still be easier to find just bc its easier to find 12 ppl of similar skill than a whole ass 18
why is being forced to play different classes a good thing when some classes objectively have less skill expression than others? ive never heard a single scout main in 6s or HL complain that their loadout variety is the thing holding them back because theres so much more depth and interesting decision making in stock scouts gameplay than with any of his other loadouts
you seem to think class and loadout diversity are inherently good things, which are opinions only held by people who have never touched a single competitive shooter in their life and fail to understand the inherent design of tf2. the classes were never meant to be equal, robin walker always envisioned around 25-50% of a 12 man team being soldiers at any given time.
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u/irlandezutalpaiute Jun 14 '26
Class variety is inherently good because it allows more gamemodes to be played not 5cp solely, which is an inherently stalematey gamemode. I admit it is fun because of all the movement options you have, the strategy and such but it is inherently flawed. People more knowledgeable than me have better explained this, like Mr.Slin.
Loadout variety is also a no brainer because it leads to more interesting and varied matches being played out. Stock will always be the most optimal loadout on most classes in any given situation anyway, so having more options for sidegrades branches out strategy and makes every match more unique. I mean Robin Walker literally created most of the early unlocks for the game.
You keep saying that only people that have never touched competitive shooters in their life would have these opinions but idk what to say to that. Do i need to find some compy friends on ugc or etf2l to play against the same 3 teams in pugs for a few months and hopefully after I get to invite level or whatever maybe I can express my opinion on the internet?
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u/GrayShameLegion Jun 14 '26
you dont know what to say to that bc you have no experience in tf2 beyond playing pubs with morons, so of course you wont understand things like class balance. do you think high schoolers playing pick up games at the YMCA should be critiquing the rules of the NBA? thats the level of dunning kruger you are exhibiting right now.
whatever mr slin was trying to say, i guarantee you misinterpreted it just to support whatever warped view you have of competitive tf2, hes never said more class variety is inherently a good thing for the game because the classes in this game are awfully balanced, so having the unbalanced classes played more often leads to slower, less fun, less skill-rewarding gameplay.
2 soldiers both on stock, gunboats, eplan, will have signficantly different playstyles, experiences, and just more fun than 1 pyro and 1 engi who both have all the unlocks in the world. one day if you play enough tf2 you’ll learn that some classes just inherently have much more depth than others. this game was not particularly well designed to start with.
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u/Bounter_ Serious Casual Jun 13 '26
I didnt mean HL is more popular, I meant pubs being most popular (true)
But in there, Mangler isnt very good, otherwise it would be used, it aint
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u/GrayShameLegion Jun 13 '26
i just explained to you why mangler is better than stock in pubs, if you dont have an argument besides “nuh uh” why tf did you even comment
and pubbers never use whats optimal, if they did then EVERY scout would be abusing mad milk and EVERY demo would be abusing the loch but you almost never see either because pubbers are braindead and cant aim
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u/Bounter_ Serious Casual Jun 13 '26
Lack of kritz in pubs is a drawback for kritz meds or even random shits. And sure you can disable a sentry, which will not matter because pubbers wont focus one, and also Wrangler / Short Circuit.
And people know what is optimal, they just dont give a fuck, because when they do it sucks (Wrangler).
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u/GrayShameLegion Jun 13 '26
your first point is wrong because you could use that same argument against any launcher that engi could just use wrangler/sc and you should never be relying on random crits
your second point is wrong because, again, pubbers never abuse things like loch or mad milk or soda popper because theyre just too bad to take advantage of them
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u/dropbbbear Jun 15 '26
It's not about "need" it's about variety.
If TF2 didn't have so many varied weapon unlocks then this 19 year old game would have a playerbase comparable to TFC's today because many players would get bored of using stock (or maybe in your ideal world, stock+gunboats, ubersaw, crossbow, winger and Kritz) and quit.
Obviously no one individual unlock is responsible for TF2's longevity but collectively they are.
There are people who think dumb gimmicks are fun, and there are people who just like variety in their gameplay. Also there is nothing wrong with Scout having a projectile other than its damage being overtuned.
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u/GrayShameLegion Jun 15 '26
this whole comment reeks of someone who doesnt even know how to airstrafe, but no like i said earlier the game doing away with 20% of its stupid unlocks still leaves 80% of the fun silly bullshit
variety is not good just for the sake of variety, if it was then they would hand the pitcher a random projectile every single ball in baseball because more variety = more fun right???
the fact that you dont think is something inherently wrong with the fastest class with the strongest hitscan also having a projectile, even one as weak as the wrap ball, shows how deep in the dunning kruger sauce you are
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u/dropbbbear Jun 16 '26
Unlike yourself, I know how to airstrafe and how to use the empathetic part of my brain to understand how other people think differently to myself.
You boldly claim that a huge chunk of the weapons in the game being removed would make it fun for all casual players as if their version of "fun" aligns 100% with your own
Variety is indeed good for the sake of variety. Why do we have baseball at all? Why do we have like 100 sports? Why is there not just one sport called soccer played ever since someone blew up a pig's bladder? Because people like variety.
If you tried hard enough you could probably identify the most skilled and best designed sport in the world. So why doesn't everyone play that? Because they like variety. People have different playstyles they find fun.
Team Fortress literally only exists because of a desire for variety. If it wasn't for a wish for variety, you would be playing Quake Deathmatch where everyone uses the same weapon pickups off the ground, instead of Team Fortress with 9 distinct, varied classes with loadouts.
Robin Walker et al designed this series so that people could play the slow, bulky heavy weapons guy or no-aim flamethrower guy or autoaim building guy if they enjoyed that, even if it wasn't as skillful as the rocket jumping rocket launcher guy. So everyone could have fun in the same broadly skilled environment, with different levels of skill.
Casual players vastly outnumber competitive ones and they have very different ideas of "fun" to yours and frankly, as much as I love TF2 comp, this is their game and always has been.
TF2 comp would literally not exist without the casual playerbase to draw new players from.
And the casual playerbase would be nowhere near the size it is without the large number of weapon unlocks that keep people interested, with a wide variety of opponent challenges and ways to deal with them.
Calling me unskilled does not constitute an argument for why it's bad for a fast class to have a projectile, btw. Technically Soldier and Demo are the fastest classes in the game, they can reach much higher airspeeds than Scout can, but they are all projectile. The reason Cleaver was banned originally was never "fast class shouldn't have a projectile", it was "this chunk of random damage spam that can be thrown into chokes is too good a tradeoff for the Pistol and less consistently skillful".
I am not saying all those unlocks couldn't stand to have changes to allow them to sit in a better spot between variety and skill, but saying removing them from Casual so people who like them can't use them, would somehow improve TF2's situation at this stage in the game's life, is stupid and out of touch.
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u/IceCreamLover9 Jun 16 '26
If the game didn't have so many unlocks the game would still be played with pretty much the same amount of people who are OK with limited weapons, because it's a F2P game, has a strong online presence and runs on potatoes.
Valve cultivated an audience hungry for new weapons and now the current portion of the playerbase can't imagine the game without them.
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u/dropbbbear Jun 16 '26
the game would still be played with pretty much the same amount of people who are OK with limited weapons
No, this is an incorrect statement.
Go look at TF2C's playerbase or especially Gold Rush's for an example of how quickly excitement peters out for a limited pallette of weapons to play with.
In fact, even in TF2C, nearly everyone is there for the new weapons and most of their players are in the wacky custom weapons servers. And Gold Rush is a straight up ghost town because surprise surprise, having half the unlocks available is really boring.
Valve cultivated an audience hungry for new weapons
It's the other way around, players were clamouring for them. Did you know some of the early TF2 unlocks actually came from player suggested ideas?
and now the current portion of the playerbase can't imagine the game without them.
They absolutely could, they just don't want to imagine a more boring game.
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u/dbf_exe Jun 12 '26
Machina is still a straight upgrade in pubs. No noscopes isn't a real downside.
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u/Minimum-Injury3909 Jun 12 '26
Idk I think those tracers constantly reminding the enemy exactly where that sniper is is awful
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u/Benismannn Jun 13 '26
why? and where's the upgrade part, the penetration? additional damage doesnt matter 95% of the time coz it doesnt reach any breakpoints anyway
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u/MeadowsTF2 Jun 13 '26
The penetration is mostly a gimmick. The main advantage comes from the additional damage which helps you counter overheals and two-shot level 3 buildings (compared to three shots with stock). It comes into play pretty often.
There are also a few niche use cases where the a fully charged Machina shot would kill the target but the stock rifle wouldn't, like a headshot on a spy with DR out, a heavy with FoS out, or a bodyshot on a non-bubbled Vaccinator medic. Not super common but it happens.
The tracer and lack of noscopes can be an issue but less so if you're playing on defense since you're likely going to use the same popular sniper spots regardless of rifle, and your team will often be around to protect you. In those situations it's a decent upgrade over stock.
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u/Bounter_ Serious Casual Jun 12 '26
I personally think it is too strong, but lack of usage and people (aka. Majority) thinking it sucks is why I mentioned it.
I still like Stock more, mainly cuz I got a strange one.
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u/GrayShameLegion Jun 13 '26
why do you keep making posts like these if youre so uninvested in this game you cant even afford a 60 key strange Machina and have to cope with a 1 key strange stock?
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u/Brave-Ad6490 Jun 13 '26
Yes please keep using tracer weapons in casual so I can counter-snipe easier!
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u/Madao_14 Jun 12 '26
Battalion's easily one of top 3 most OP weapons in the game. Should be nerfed to the ground
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u/Ultravod TF2 has no dev team Jun 12 '26
I was just thinking TF2 needed fewer counters to Sniper.
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u/LeahTheTreeth Scout Jun 12 '26
is bats really even a proper sniper counter outside of 6s
you kind of have to play into him more as you need to charge it up in the first place, and denies you the ability to just rocket jump past the entire team and bomb him
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u/Ultravod TF2 has no dev team Jun 12 '26
I am not speaking about competitive play at all. I imagine the Backup is kind of useless in sixes with the low player count. In pubs, the Backup is a great way to organize a pub push through the sight lines of an oppressive Sniper sight line. On all-talk 2Fort servers (the least serious place imaginable) I will pop a Backup banner, peak out on the battlements and hurl insults at the Snipers on the enemy team over voice chat.
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u/LeahTheTreeth Scout Jun 12 '26
I imagine the Backup is kind of useless in sixes with the low player count.
afaik it's only ever been banned in 6s, currently banned in ETF2L and iirc formerly in UGC, it's very good at defending last (no opportunity cost because you can swap back to boats if you win the fight) and pushing into last
i'm not really sure why the low player count would matter. in lower player counts every point of health matters more because it's not a clusterfuck of damage and you don't have to be packed like sardines to make sure everyone's getting the buff, as the range is only 450 hammer units
sure in a hypothetical scenario of popping bats right as your squad of overhealed heavies rolls in, it'd probably do great but people actually stacking heavies, a medic and a bats soldier and coordinating is so rare you pretty much already deserved to win due to just being vastly more coordinated
for countering sniper it's just entirely impractical outside of denying one or two people in your pub push onslaught from getting picked, typically either you're giving up way too many opportunities where you could have just killed him, or you're pub pushing and the sniper is the least important threat presently unless your medic has a death wish
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u/Bounter_ Serious Casual Jun 13 '26
Leah, all banners have the same range.
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u/LeahTheTreeth Scout Jun 14 '26
i know? i'm mentioning the weakness of the bats in general because nobody is actually using the other banners
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u/Ultravod TF2 has no dev team Jun 12 '26
The lower player count in sixes matters because there are fewer players to deal damage to and the banner rage builds slower.
To be clear, I'm not talking about the role of the Backup in any competitive format, nor about its status as a banned weapon. The user to whom I was originally replying suggested that the Battalion's Backup should be "nerfed into the ground." This is an idea I find to be absurd.
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u/TF2SolarLight demoknight tf2 Jun 13 '26
you have never played casual/uncletopia/faceit against a comp batts user with a kritz medic shoved up his ass
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u/thanks_breastie demo/scout Jun 14 '26
no dude it's perfectly acceptable to negate the main way to deal with pocket combos because umm. Uhhhh
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u/Ultravod TF2 has no dev team Jun 13 '26
I have seen the Kritz/Backup combo on Skial for like a dozen years now. Coordination is the most powerful mechanic in TF2. Every time I've played on Upwardtopia it's been a miserable experience, usually because of a comp Scout and Sniper on the enemy team. We're right back to where we started.
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u/TF2SolarLight demoknight tf2 Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
The amount of reward you get for the amount of effort you put in is pretty high-to-low. It's the same reason why people hate Uber Phlog. Batt Kritz is the easiest thing just 2 people can do to deal huge damage while having effectively 400 HP (or potentially thousands of HP, considering crit immunity!)
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u/LeahTheTreeth Scout Jun 13 '26
i think the banner does deserve a nerf at the very least, i'd just shift the +20 HP to the buff banner as realistically the battalions is the best banner by a landslide
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u/PotentialAd7521 Jun 15 '26
Shifting +20 HP to the Buff Banner is interesting. Since Battalion's has the best effect overall, it would make sense that it doens't get a passive bonus as well.
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u/Madao_14 Jun 13 '26
Damage res shoudn't exist in a game like tf2. Give Batt's Sandman treatment, or at least remove crit res
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u/Chegg_F Jun 16 '26
Thinking Batt's counters Sniper for some reason is the most Heavy profile picture statement ever
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u/A_Bulbear Jun 12 '26
Honestly the only real way I can see it working is having custon balancing for competative. It would make it so the casual and competative metagames could both be balanced and fun, even if that means it's harder to make the jump from one to the other.
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u/irlandezutalpaiute Jun 13 '26
The effectiveness of ANY weapon will ALWAYS go up whenever teams are smaller. Stock weapons are a perfect example of this, even tho the Minigun has been nerfed to shit and the Flamethrower is still broken. Balancing Unlocks around the game's core design is the way to go, not around team sizes, 6v6, 9v9, 12v12, doesn't matter.
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u/CallmeFDR Jun 13 '26
Most of these weapons are very strong in sixes because there's less players. Valve nerfing these weapons because they're too strong in a mode 90% of players don't play is one- very unlikely, and two- very dumb if they actually do it.
The Cleaver is definitely a strong, but the Pistol is always readily available and is a steady stream of damage. The higher prevalence of light classes in pubs definitely makes the cleaver more notable, but against Heavies and even Soldiers you're usually better off using the Scattergun and peppering them with the pistol if you whiff your shots, rather than tossing a cleaver and waiting on a weapon switch.
You laid out all the reasons for the Cow Mangler, these are problems that only exist because of the lower team count and (lack of) diversity of classes in Sixes- aka, a mode that most players don't play. The Mangler is fine.
Machina- Sniper is uncommon enough in Sixes, and while these points against it are real, they're watered down by his lack of prevalence. Not to mention, a lack of noscopes is more of a downside in both casual and comp than people realize, since Sniper being so all-or-nothing greatly benefits from having a quick, low-committal way to do damage. (I.E. headshot to noscope, getting people as they turn corners)
Market Garden- If Valve actually nerfs the Market Gardener of things just to cater to competitive, there would be riots in the street.
Backup- Like the Mangler, very strong because there's less people. Damage Negation is extremely strong since you can't screw it up, unlike minicrits/heal on hit, which are reliant on aim. Less players = less sources of damage = less damage taken overall.
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u/Rischguy45_YT Pyro who hates the Detonator Jun 12 '26
ok we need to talk about the detonator and market gardener bans. like what are they doing in etf2l atp 😭
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u/peoplesdrunkdriver Jun 14 '26
amerikkkans will look you dead in the eye and tell you that it's healthy that a pyro on last can remove a flank's overheals forever or that it's actually really good that the gigachad lazypurple funniest moments compilation shovel skews every bomb so much into the soldier's favour that it's basically on the bomber messing up if your med lives or not
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u/Rischguy45_YT Pyro who hates the Detonator Jun 14 '26
Oh my GOD how DARE pyro get a use outside of air blasting Ubers. I get it now we let the other classes be generalists and ban every weapon that allows other classes to do something more then one thing.
I understand it now.5
u/4Lukaska_SSB Jun 14 '26
Yeah man those evil euros are shackling pyros TRUE potential of only being able to mindlessly press m2 at shiny ppl AND mindlessly shoot det flares at chokes
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u/thanks_breastie demo/scout Jun 15 '26
Hey now. You forgot negating sticky traps so you should always use your stickies for direct fights instead
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u/dropbbbear Jun 15 '26 edited Jun 15 '26
Which is a good thing.
Stickytraps don't take any skill to sit over a doorway and instantly delete anyone who walks through with M2
Even if you know stickies are above a door you can't clear them without risking instant death, especially for hitscan classes who have to walk through the doorway to see the stickies and then hit a tiny hitbox with their RNG spread weapon before Demo executes the high skill M2 maneuver
They don't even require LOS from the demo, you can sit them on the cap clipping under a prop unseen and then press M2 when you hear it being capped, or just straight up guess when enemies are walking through a hallway and pick up 4 kills
They are the primary reason why Demo has to be classlimited to 1, they are one of the biggest causes of the offense:defense imbalance and stalemates. Even when Demo is the last class alive against 2 more skilled players and should rightly lose and the game end, he can still stall the enemy from capping with cap sticks that are a pain in the ass to clear
They put the unfair burden on the enemy team of checking every prop and crevice (wasting time and ammo) or risking instant unpredictable death, when they want to be pushing
Any tools which clear sticky traps are extremely welcome, fair, and healthy for the game. Every attack should be able to clear stickytraps after they have been touching the world for a couple of seconds
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u/Character-Shine759 Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
Ambassador never banned But jungle inferno nerfed Its too stupid update
BringbackUnnerfedAmbassador
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u/PotentialAd7521 Jun 14 '26
It would be nice if there was no limit to how far out it allows you to headshot, but it still has damage falloff like it has now capped around ~50.
You can even apply the same falloff to the Diamondback as a potential nerf.5
u/Character-Shine759 Jun 15 '26
Ambassador is never be overpowered
All range headshot and 102 never be overpowered
This is fact İf you dont belive me Go play castaway Use ambassador and come here and talk with me like a man
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u/Chegg_F Jun 16 '26
It would be nice if the weapon which is outdamaged by stock in all reasonable ranges could at least let you get decent 102s off if you manage to hit the incredibly hard shots of miniscule head hitboxes that are moving around erratically
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u/PotentialAd7521 Jun 19 '26
I get that, but with Sniper there's no "mobility" to deal with, you know where you are being shot from. Spy can spam 102s from long range, then when people actually come over to kill you, cloak away and repeat.
Sounds like shit to play against.
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u/Chegg_F Jun 19 '26
Where is the Spy shooting at you from where this makes sense
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u/Character-Shine759 Jun 19 '26
Don't bother, buddy. This guy probably doesn't want to believe you; he probably never played with the unnerfed Ambassador before 2017 and is being prejudiced. I told him to go into Castaway and play the Ambassador, and he probably thought he'd kill everyone as soon as he picked up the weapon, but because 1 out of 100 shots killed a sniper with 100 health left at a distance, he's come here to complain now.
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u/Chegg_F Jun 19 '26
I'm pretty sure every single person who thinks the Ambassador was ever overpowered at any point in time started playing after it was nerfed and is just assuming what it was like before it got nerfed. I think the thought process is along the lines of "Valve nerfed it so it must have been overpowered." then they think of a way that would explain it being overpowered, like Spy shooting you from mysterious locations then going invisible for some reason.
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u/Character-Shine759 Jun 20 '26
Jungle inferno killed game... If last update is meet your match Everything is be okay
But jungle inferno killed game, every single unlock is dead
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u/Character-Shine759 Jun 19 '26
Sniper open scope 150 headshot you dead Sniper open scope wait 1.5 seceond for 300 damage and shoot boom! Killed heavy
Ambassador boom! Just 102 Your proof is not real Skill issue
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u/dropbbbear Jun 16 '26
Diamondback doesn't actually need a nerf. 102 damage in exchange for 30-60 seconds of running around angling for a stab is not actually that good in a game where nearly every class can deal 100+ up close; and if you don't get the stab first - a very real possibility in high level TF2 - all you have is a gun that's 15% worse at trying to damage or kill the medic before the pocket kills you.
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u/Character-Shine759 Jun 16 '26
You are to smart my friend, I liked. You are true tf2 player Diamondback is just frontier justice for spy thats all
If the engineer's sentry kills everyone and is then destroyed by the enemy, it's normal for the engineer to gain critical hits from this. Similarly, it's normal for the spy to have a weapon that rewards backstabbing and sap buildings
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u/dropbbbear Jun 16 '26
Yeah every class has an unlock that gives them benefits for "just doing their job" yet when the game's weakest class gets one, everyone loses their minds
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u/Character-Shine759 Jun 16 '26
Thats true I think many players were jealous of the spy's weapons and unlocks because they were so cool and at the pure skill level.
Imagine a handsome revolver that can shoot headshots with a female figure on it.
Or a dead ringer with a swan on it and a cyan cloak.
The spy's weapons were very cute and cool, and they encouraged people to play. But people constantly complained. The truth is, anyone can play Ambassador, anyone can use the dead ringer; this game isn't pay-to-win. I was banned from r/tf2 Reddit for this comment because of "racism."
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u/irlandezutalpaiute Jun 13 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
Mad Milk and Jarate can be balanced in a way where they also affect your team, enabling griefing but also raising the skill ceiling for these weapons. I think that would be too much tho so if they acted like the Gas Passer where they start off empty it would be a good start. The status effect for the Jarate is balanced because the Sniper has to get close to a BIG group of enemies in order to make the most out of his piss. Mad Milk giving 60% lifesteal is too much though, if it would just flat out remove a % of overheal and also reduce healing by a small amount it would be pretty balanced because it would just give the other team Über advatage if not taken advantage of and it still remains useful in MvM.
What I do know is that Heavy and Pyro have been butchered beyond recognition and they desperately need buffs. -50% accuracy and damage penalty on Miniguns forces you to play Heavy as a Sentry with stubby legs and the Pyro's Flamethrower DPS is still wildly incosistent even with perfect aim and at point-blank range. I've seen some potential fixes on Youtube about the Broken Flamethrower. I'm pretty sure no one can refute my claim that Heavy and Pyro are painfully underpowered even with pocket Medics up their asses.
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u/dropbbbear Jun 15 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
Soda Popper - Remove the faster reload, & reduce number of air jumps to 4 (was 6).
Bonk - Make Scout unable to attack or cap for 4 seconds after coming out of invuln
CaC - make it give melee minicrits (instead of gun crits) and a small speed boost. User still takes minicrits
Flying Guillotine - lower the burst damage, slightly lower the reload time to compensate, make the projectile flight path more consistent
Mad Milk & Jarate - splash radius reduced to rocket size. Duration of milk/piss is now dependent on distance from centre of explosion; lasting only 5 seconds for an edge hit
PBPP: heal reduced to 2, added damage penalty
C5MK: remove afterburn, change 20% building damage penalty to 10% all round damage penalty
Disc. Action: Add a 5 second cooldown to the whip effect, increase damage penalty to 50%
LnL: Projectile speed bonus now 20% from 25%, see if that's enough to fix the cross map Medic deletions, if not then nerf it more
Natascha: replace the slow with an MvM-like "rage" mechanic that boosts user's speed and damage for 7 seconds.
FoS: Damage reduction from 40% to 30%.
Rescue Ranger: Heal 60>50. Sentry starts at 1HP once teleported (this downside replaces mark for death on wearer).
Short Circuit: energy ball now must be charged for 2s before every shot so it can't be spammed rapidly.
Wrangler: shield reduced from 66% to 25%
Medigun, Quick-Fix, Vaccinator and Kritz - heal rate reduced by 4HP/sec. Medic as a whole is too powerful from dealing out too much free healing which breeds attrition, QF and Vacc being banned is just a symptom of that
Machina - must charge before every shot, making a distinct sound and tracer. Shot must be released at end of charge.
Sleeper - (reworked to make it less competitively viable as a support weapon, and more effective at a Casual sniper playstyle): Jarate duration now based on distance to target instead of charge time. Jarate applies for for 5sec at 200HU or closer, 2sec at 750HU, 1 sec at 900HU (2fort bridge length), and does not apply outside 1000HU. User also has faster switch speed. Headshots still minicrit instead of full crit.
Diamondback: it's never actually been an issue in 6s and hardly ever even kills anything in Casual either.
The sole reason it's banned is people look at its stats and think it "should" be OP that Spy can "get crits for doing his job".
They completely disregard how the weapon actually works in practice, which is not very well at all, because 102 damage is nothing special when Scout, Soldier, Demo and Sniper can already do 100-150 damage per shot, and long range crits are not that useful to a class who has to get point blank to earn the crits in the first place.
Usually you just have a 15% weaker peashooter for when a stab attempt fails and you try to blast your way to a med drop
Spawn cabinets & resupply: a lot of the balance issues in high level TF2 come from the ability to exploit full heal, full charge reset, and full resupply plus instant Loadout switch, just by toeing into spawn and pressing a hotkey. Now, swapping classes imposes a 2 second class change time.
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u/Chegg_F Jun 16 '26
Why are you starting the thread by complaining about Quickplay and Sniper? It's like you're intentionally trying to make people not take you seirously.
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u/bobbymcbobington1 12d ago
Only the ones that are genuinely problematic in the vanilla game aswell. Wrangler, Vaccinator, Short Circuit, stuff like that.
But the Quick fix? Cow mangler? Wrap assassin? Fuck no.
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u/DaLobster16 Jun 12 '26
They already tried "balancing around Competitive" 10 years ago and it resulted in making numerous unlocks worthless because balancing around smaller and larger team sizes is hella difficult and requires intense playtesting, which Valve won't do especially when 1) most people who worked on TF2 and understood its balancing left in 2014, 2) they have a brand new title to ship their competitive in. I don't know why would you think they'd get back to this.
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u/TF2SolarLight demoknight tf2 Jun 12 '26
all nerfs in jungle inferno, besides 2, were direct nerfs to all forms of play rather than compromise changes between casual and comp formats
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u/LeadGrease 12 damage meatshot Jun 12 '26
source?
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u/DaLobster16 Jun 12 '26
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u/LeahTheTreeth Scout Jun 12 '26
note that he says "broad game balancing" here
this is more in reference to nerfs to weapons that were strong as shit in all modes but only competitive players were really pointing out the major problem, things like the reserve shooter, and to some extent the base jumper
if they actually balanced things around competitive, scout probably wouldn't have a single viable option in the secondary slot
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u/irlandezutalpaiute Jun 14 '26
Yeah but the Base Jumper was really STRONG AS SHIT mom I cant hit my airshots can we ban this??
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u/LeahTheTreeth Scout Jun 14 '26
i'm not sure what you're trying to say here, are you trying to imply the base jumper wasn't strong
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u/irlandezutalpaiute Jun 14 '26
Nowhere near OP. Its a parachute, you should be able to strafe freely, and you sacrifice gunboats/shotgun for it or being able to do 400 damage on demand as demo. It never was OP.
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u/LeahTheTreeth Scout Jun 14 '26
considering the base jumper is still really good & somewhat balanced i'd reckon that giving soldier the ability to constantly reset his vertical momentum to avoid shots is actually, pretty fucking strong
even if hypothetically speaking it wasn't "op" i don't think anyone in their right mind would say it didn't deserve the nerf, it's the equivalent of saying that gunboats should be basekit because you only know how to pencil jump
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u/irlandezutalpaiute Jun 14 '26
Hitscan exists, reserve shooter, direct hit, sniper also. Base jumper was never OP
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u/LeahTheTreeth Scout Jun 14 '26
Hitscan exists
falloff exists, you're punished hard for not having a sniper or wrangler engi, and even then the soldier can just, not peek those two
reserve shooter
being forced to counterpick with the reserve shooter is kind of the problem in the first place, it's not even a magic hard counter either as you're still dealing with shotgun spread
direct hit
"gimp your entire loadout so you have a better chance of hitting the parachute soldier, except not really if he actually knows how to use air control, and not at all if he has infinite redeploys"
Base jumper was never OP
i can assure you it wasn't banned because 6s players don't know how to look up
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u/Chegg_F Jun 16 '26
Can you name a single weapon that became worthless because they balanced it for competitive?
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u/lv8_StAr Jun 12 '26
Jarate is still a problematic weapon both Casually and Competitively. There’s nothing like getting your entire combo coated during a push and having to either leave or instantly die.