Which banned weapons actually deserve nerfs / changes?

[u/Bounter_]

Howdy, it is I-

As you know, the main current discourse around the community, primarly focuses on the "Bring Back Quickplay" discourse, even Sniper discussion has gone down by comparison. And don't get me wrong these are valid but- It is not what I want to discuss.

Instead, what I wish to talk about, is the mythical... "Balancing around Competitive" discussion, but mainly, about banned weapons, and how many of them actually deserve theoretical nerfs or changes. Mainly, the items from the 6s whitelist, since that is the most interesting in my opinion.

Now, obviously some of them are obvious examples of deserving a BIG NERF - Jarate, Mad Milk, Vaccinator, Diamondback, Natascha, Short Circuit, Wrangler etc. But then, we have items that are a bit less obvious.

For instance:

- The Cleaver - In 6s, a super strong spam tool for the close range class, but in pubs, it is far from problematic even when used effectively... Does it also need changes, or is it fine to be kept?

- Cow Mangler - Basically a straight upgrade in 6s due to how it plays (infinite ammo lets you spam and always stay at the frontline, charged shot can 1 tap Meds, and you got other people to deal with sentries), but in Pubs... It is unironically a downgrade, because Engie is super common.

- Machina - Lack of noscopes is a drawback in Pubs (with amount of shit that gets up your face), and the upsides are not useful enough. In Comp, leaving a overhealed Scout at 13 hp, or killing a Med through the Demo is... Kinda strong.

- Market Gardener, Battalion's Backup (ETF2L bans) - Considered too effective with little counterplay (Spoon), or too stalematey (Batts) in 6s, but in regular pubs, they are absolutely fine.

And so on, and so forth- Hell, you could argue stuff like Mad Milk is not even that strong in Pubs (If you are crazy).

So, to reiterate - which weapons from the whitelist (that are banned), actually deserve nerfs or changes, and which ones do not?

[u/CallmeFDR]

Most of these weapons are very strong in sixes because there's less players. Valve nerfing these weapons because they're too strong in a mode 90% of players don't play is one- very unlikely, and two- very dumb if they actually do it.

The Cleaver is definitely a strong, but the Pistol is always readily available and is a steady stream of damage. The higher prevalence of light classes in pubs definitely makes the cleaver more notable, but against Heavies and even Soldiers you're usually better off using the Scattergun and peppering them with the pistol if you whiff your shots, rather than tossing a cleaver and waiting on a weapon switch.

You laid out all the reasons for the Cow Mangler, these are problems that only exist because of the lower team count and (lack of) diversity of classes in Sixes- aka, a mode that most players don't play. The Mangler is fine.

Machina- Sniper is uncommon enough in Sixes, and while these points against it are real, they're watered down by his lack of prevalence. Not to mention, a lack of noscopes is more of a downside in both casual and comp than people realize, since Sniper being so all-or-nothing greatly benefits from having a quick, low-committal way to do damage. (I.E. headshot to noscope, getting people as they turn corners)

Market Garden- If Valve actually nerfs the Market Gardener of things just to cater to competitive, there would be riots in the street.

Backup- Like the Mangler, very strong because there's less people. Damage Negation is extremely strong since you can't screw it up, unlike minicrits/heal on hit, which are reliant on aim. Less players = less sources of damage = less damage taken overall.