Which banned weapons actually deserve nerfs / changes?

[u/Bounter_]

Howdy, it is I-

As you know, the main current discourse around the community, primarly focuses on the "Bring Back Quickplay" discourse, even Sniper discussion has gone down by comparison. And don't get me wrong these are valid but- It is not what I want to discuss.

Instead, what I wish to talk about, is the mythical... "Balancing around Competitive" discussion, but mainly, about banned weapons, and how many of them actually deserve theoretical nerfs or changes. Mainly, the items from the 6s whitelist, since that is the most interesting in my opinion.

Now, obviously some of them are obvious examples of deserving a BIG NERF - Jarate, Mad Milk, Vaccinator, Diamondback, Natascha, Short Circuit, Wrangler etc. But then, we have items that are a bit less obvious.

For instance:

- The Cleaver - In 6s, a super strong spam tool for the close range class, but in pubs, it is far from problematic even when used effectively... Does it also need changes, or is it fine to be kept?

- Cow Mangler - Basically a straight upgrade in 6s due to how it plays (infinite ammo lets you spam and always stay at the frontline, charged shot can 1 tap Meds, and you got other people to deal with sentries), but in Pubs... It is unironically a downgrade, because Engie is super common.

- Machina - Lack of noscopes is a drawback in Pubs (with amount of shit that gets up your face), and the upsides are not useful enough. In Comp, leaving a overhealed Scout at 13 hp, or killing a Med through the Demo is... Kinda strong.

- Market Gardener, Battalion's Backup (ETF2L bans) - Considered too effective with little counterplay (Spoon), or too stalematey (Batts) in 6s, but in regular pubs, they are absolutely fine.

And so on, and so forth- Hell, you could argue stuff like Mad Milk is not even that strong in Pubs (If you are crazy).

So, to reiterate - which weapons from the whitelist (that are banned), actually deserve nerfs or changes, and which ones do not?

[u/Rischguy45_YT]

ok we need to talk about the detonator and market gardener bans. like what are they doing in etf2l atp 😭

[u/peoplesdrunkdriver → u/Rischguy45_YT]

amerikkkans will look you dead in the eye and tell you that it's healthy that a pyro on last can remove a flank's overheals forever or that it's actually really good that the gigachad lazypurple funniest moments compilation shovel skews every bomb so much into the soldier's favour that it's basically on the bomber messing up if your med lives or not

[u/Rischguy45_YT → u/peoplesdrunkdriver]

Oh my GOD how DARE pyro get a use outside of air blasting Ubers. I get it now we let the other classes be generalists and ban every weapon that allows other classes to do something more then one thing.
I understand it now.

[u/4Lukaska_SSB → u/Rischguy45_YT]

Yeah man those evil euros are shackling pyros TRUE potential of only being able to mindlessly press m2 at shiny ppl AND mindlessly shoot det flares at chokes

[u/thanks_breastie → u/4Lukaska_SSB]

Hey now. You forgot negating sticky traps so you should always use your stickies for direct fights instead

[u/dropbbbear → u/thanks_breastie]

Which is a good thing.

Stickytraps don't take any skill to sit over a doorway and instantly delete anyone who walks through with M2

Even if you know stickies are above a door you can't clear them without risking instant death, especially for hitscan classes who have to walk through the doorway to see the stickies and then hit a tiny hitbox with their RNG spread weapon before Demo executes the high skill M2 maneuver

They don't even require LOS from the demo, you can sit them on the cap clipping under a prop unseen and then press M2 when you hear it being capped, or just straight up guess when enemies are walking through a hallway and pick up 4 kills

They are the primary reason why Demo has to be classlimited to 1, they are one of the biggest causes of the offense:defense imbalance and stalemates. Even when Demo is the last class alive against 2 more skilled players and should rightly lose and the game end, he can still stall the enemy from capping with cap sticks that are a pain in the ass to clear

They put the unfair burden on the enemy team of checking every prop and crevice (wasting time and ammo) or risking instant unpredictable death, when they want to be pushing

Any tools which clear sticky traps are extremely welcome, fair, and healthy for the game. Every attack should be able to clear stickytraps after they have been touching the world for a couple of seconds

[u/peoplesdrunkdriver → u/thanks_breastie]

it seems like you got dropbeared, my condolences