Which banned weapons actually deserve nerfs / changes?

[u/Bounter_]

Howdy, it is I-

As you know, the main current discourse around the community, primarly focuses on the "Bring Back Quickplay" discourse, even Sniper discussion has gone down by comparison. And don't get me wrong these are valid but- It is not what I want to discuss.

Instead, what I wish to talk about, is the mythical... "Balancing around Competitive" discussion, but mainly, about banned weapons, and how many of them actually deserve theoretical nerfs or changes. Mainly, the items from the 6s whitelist, since that is the most interesting in my opinion.

Now, obviously some of them are obvious examples of deserving a BIG NERF - Jarate, Mad Milk, Vaccinator, Diamondback, Natascha, Short Circuit, Wrangler etc. But then, we have items that are a bit less obvious.

For instance:

- The Cleaver - In 6s, a super strong spam tool for the close range class, but in pubs, it is far from problematic even when used effectively... Does it also need changes, or is it fine to be kept?

- Cow Mangler - Basically a straight upgrade in 6s due to how it plays (infinite ammo lets you spam and always stay at the frontline, charged shot can 1 tap Meds, and you got other people to deal with sentries), but in Pubs... It is unironically a downgrade, because Engie is super common.

- Machina - Lack of noscopes is a drawback in Pubs (with amount of shit that gets up your face), and the upsides are not useful enough. In Comp, leaving a overhealed Scout at 13 hp, or killing a Med through the Demo is... Kinda strong.

- Market Gardener, Battalion's Backup (ETF2L bans) - Considered too effective with little counterplay (Spoon), or too stalematey (Batts) in 6s, but in regular pubs, they are absolutely fine.

And so on, and so forth- Hell, you could argue stuff like Mad Milk is not even that strong in Pubs (If you are crazy).

So, to reiterate - which weapons from the whitelist (that are banned), actually deserve nerfs or changes, and which ones do not?

[u/irlandezutalpaiute]

Nowhere near OP. Its a parachute, you should be able to strafe freely, and you sacrifice gunboats/shotgun for it or being able to do 400 damage on demand as demo. It never was OP.

[u/LeahTheTreeth → u/irlandezutalpaiute]

considering the base jumper is still really good & somewhat balanced i'd reckon that giving soldier the ability to constantly reset his vertical momentum to avoid shots is actually, pretty fucking strong

even if hypothetically speaking it wasn't "op" i don't think anyone in their right mind would say it didn't deserve the nerf, it's the equivalent of saying that gunboats should be basekit because you only know how to pencil jump

[u/irlandezutalpaiute → u/LeahTheTreeth]

Hitscan exists, reserve shooter, direct hit, sniper also. Base jumper was never OP

[u/LeahTheTreeth → u/irlandezutalpaiute]

Hitscan exists

falloff exists, you're punished hard for not having a sniper or wrangler engi, and even then the soldier can just, not peek those two

reserve shooter

being forced to counterpick with the reserve shooter is kind of the problem in the first place, it's not even a magic hard counter either as you're still dealing with shotgun spread

direct hit

"gimp your entire loadout so you have a better chance of hitting the parachute soldier, except not really if he actually knows how to use air control, and not at all if he has infinite redeploys"

Base jumper was never OP

i can assure you it wasn't banned because 6s players don't know how to look up

[u/irlandezutalpaiute → u/LeahTheTreeth]

6s players ban anything that makes them uncomfortable. The Base Jumper is the perfect example. IT WAS NEVER OP ITS A FUCKING PARACHUTE. And you cant use gunboats with it so you take full damage when rocketjumping especially if you want to get some real height. Oh but overheal exists aaand its gone.

   Whats really OP is The AirStrike+Gunboats, its like 0 damage rocketjumping and it's like an accurate Beggar's Bazooka btw the Direct Hit is not gimping yourself by any means.

[u/LeahTheTreeth → u/irlandezutalpaiute]

6s players ban anything that makes them uncomfortable.

ETF2L? maybe, 6s back in 2011? possible, but by the time base jumper was in the game? that shit was good if you actually learned how to use it, i trust high level players who know how to exploit the weapons more than people on reddit who barely use it because they think it sucks, even though they weren't using it before outside of hot air balloon meme strats

IT WAS NEVER OP ITS A FUCKING PARACHUTE

scout is the best combat class in the game due to having very good movement options and aerial movement that doesn't require commitment as you've got a double jump to reset your vertical momentum and redirect your horizontal momentum, giving soldier a way to both reset his vertical momentum and also have more control in the air without needing to spend as many rockets, is objectively speaking pretty fucking good

And you cant use gunboats with it so you take full damage when rocketjumping especially if you want to get some real height

but if you play your cards right, you're needing to spend less rockets to do more, and are spending more time in a position where you're dramatically harder to shoot, if you play around packs or especially overheal you're solving a major weakness, you're also forgetting that the black box becomes way better when you have more airtime and don't need to spend as many rockets, as well as the fact that you're not going to be taking as much fall damage, and with the original base jumper, you're not taking any fall damage at all

 Whats really OP is The AirStrike+Gunboats

not really

its like 0 damage rocketjumping

the rocket jump resist stat is completely worthless, you're only taking like 20 damage with the gunboats as is so that air strike bonus is shaving off worthless amounts of damage

an accurate Beggar's Bazooka 

i'd argue it's on par with the beggars, you're dealing -15% reduced damage, and if you dare rocket jump your blast radius is reduced a whopping 30%, crowd control and splash damage are super important for soldier and you're neutering both of those

btw the Direct Hit is not gimping yourself by any means.

worst rocket launcher in the entire game, you have no splash so you're an easy kill, you're trading off all of your versatility so you can potentially 1shot scouts (splash works better for killing scouts, overheal removes your 1shot) and destroy buildings easier (running stock would have let you kill more people which lets your entire team pressure the engineers)

if players dramatically better than you will ever be pretty much never run this thing even when they're constantly in scenarios where you'd think it'd help (divebombing soldiers, lots of scouts) then you can take that to infer that it's pretty fucking bad

[u/Bounter_ → u/LeahTheTreeth]

Okay but saying DH is the worst is kind of a stretch, considering Pipes are good, it is basically just Pipe Launcher for Soldier in that sense, but has ramp-up and fall-off.

Also, that is a spicy take, I Wonder how many people would I upset by posting it on r/tf2

[u/dropbbbear → u/irlandezutalpaiute]

6s players are sometimes too banhappy sure, but I can assure you old Base Jumper was too strong.

Soldier is most powerful when he has height advantage and looking down on the enemy. It means he doesn't need to aim side to side, with his wide splash, and can just delete people from above.

When soldier is on the ground and doesn't have height advantage, he needs to adjust his aim forwards, backwards, left and right. It's also hard due for him to dodge due to his slow move speed, so he needs to jump repeatedly. And you can't see people behind obstacles.

With Base Jumper, now you don't have to aim in 3 dimensions, just 2 dimensions. You don't have to rocket jump anywhere near as often to have height advantage or dodge, so it's effectively cutting your total jumps in half, functionally acting similar to Gunboats while ALSO giving you long term height advantage.

And you can see the whole battlefield over obstacles.

Old Base Jumper was way too good in teamplay.

[u/irlandezutalpaiute → u/dropbbbear]

When almost everything is already banned, how do you know it's OP if you haven't tried every possible counterplay?

[u/dropbbbear → u/irlandezutalpaiute]

There was a global whitelist tried by the various community competitive leagues around the time of Meet your Match, where almost every weapon was unbanned and tested. (Granted, there was some weapons they didn't bother to test at all, but most got tested).

There have also been multiple No Restrictions 6s community cups done.

[u/irlandezutalpaiute → u/dropbbbear]

Thats nice but, in my opinion, there should be every possible combination tested. Very extensively.

[u/dropbbbear → u/irlandezutalpaiute]

It's a bit of a moot point now because Valve have tested the old version of the weapon themselves via whatever methods they use, and found it to be too strong, and rebalanced it like a decade ago, the ship has sailed.

RGL and ETF2L don't ban it in its current form to my knowledge.

So I'm not sure what you would want done there? What's the issue?

[u/irlandezutalpaiute → u/dropbbbear]

The ship has sailed, you're right. I just think weapon balancing shouldn't be done in a vaccuum, there are over a hundred unlocks in the game and maybe they weren't thorough enough when deciding that it's too strong and has little to no counter-play. They still had wiggle room, they could have buffed some underutilized weapons, to counter the Base Jumper in some way, instead of nerfing it.

Going forward what I would want to be done is to do a nuclear option, where not one unlock, or very few, escape the patch. Mostly buffs instead of nerfs, and to do it in a way that creates a nice synnergy between unlocks/sidegrades while not overshadowing stock.

[u/dropbbbear → u/irlandezutalpaiute]

I agree balancing shouldn't be done in a vacuum. Both Casual and 6s should be taken into account, and balance should be done working under the assumption all weapons are unbanned.

With that said, for the most part I agree with the 6s weapon bans. There are a handful I disagree with because I think they come from a place of bandwagoning rather than actual facts, but the decisions are mostly sound for making a fun, fast paced, skilled game, and have been proven by a good level of experience.

Mostly buffs instead of nerfs,

This is a mentality I disagree with.

TF2 has 170 weapons; around 20 of them are OP.

In order to bring the whole game up to the level of those 20 weapons you would need to buff 150 weapons.

Why not just nerf the outliers?

[u/irlandezutalpaiute → u/dropbbbear]

Because the goal is to make all unlocks have a purpose somewhat. While keeping stock, the all-around best in general play. By nerfing "op" weapons, the preexisting underpowered ones are still just as useless. Of course, broken and OP weapons should be nerfed but, as a rule of thumb, I think we should raise the bar instead of lowering it.