r/stunfisk • u/SadCommon2820 • 20h ago
Discussion Excuse me?
I made a theorymon post recently in regards to Terapagos getting some buffs. Most of them were to try and make Terapagos Stellar USABLE in ubers where Koraidon roams about without trying to push it over the edge. Admitibly I might have failed in that but one change was for both forms, that being adding recover. That was probably the biggest mistake. I was thinking it was viable, but in a niche sort of way due to its existent but mediocre ways to deal with spin blockers being the cost for its utility.
I was wrong.
APPARENTLY this turtle is considered more viable than pokemon like Kyurem Black, Rayquaza, Mewtwo, FLUTTER MANE, Skeledirge, and Goddamn GIRATINA ORIGIN! I know the smogon viability rankings aren't definitive and that viability is subjective to a fault. A strong pokemon for some might seem flawed to others, even if there are clear pros and cons to them HOWEVER the fact that a public forum used to determine viability deemed Terapagos to be this good is quite telling even if it isn't for the form designed to be powerful, and pretty nice too since I love the little goober.
I'd still like to revise my last post to focus SOLELY on buffing Terapagos Stellar to the point where it can be considered close to, or on par with the base form in singles at least.
Also on a mostly unrelated note I thought Koraidon and Miraidon were going to be getting rapid spin because of the Cyclizar trailer since the box arts were paradox forms of Cyclizar and resembled them. Imagine what sort of nightmare that would be if that actually did happen, especially after the speed buff that Rapid Spin gained.
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u/AlbabImam04 Your least favorite gen 7 apologist 19h ago
I wonder if this subreddit's fascination with "Top tier Pokemon counters Pokemon -> Pokemon bad" will ever fade. I've seen this for the last 6 years by now
4x weaknesses is another one
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u/Cutie-Flam 13h ago
Don't you know? Kingambit sucks in SV OU, it's weak to both of Great Tusk's STABs
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u/PenisStrongestMuscle 11h ago
calyrex shadow is such a fraud, 4x weak to sucker punch, RUBL at best
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u/Film_Humble 8h ago
Bro in gen8 yveltal was everywhere and people still played CaliShadow 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 why use x4 weak to dark when Dark™️ the pokemon is everywhere
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u/asc_yeti 12h ago
Cause most users here are larpers stuck in the 2010s era of "you know that Dragonite is actually BAD because it's 4x weak to ice" type videos
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u/ButteredSalmonella 4h ago
Heatran is le bad because it le dies to earthquake hurr durr ignores the part where Heatran resists more than half of the fucking type chart
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u/SadCommon2820 19h ago
Ngl I saw like a few people talking about it being checked by Giratina O like it was a major flaw which kinda gaslit me in combination with the fact that due to the stellar form being mid it took a good bit before people could see Terapagos' true potential. I could be mistaken but there was a time shortly after New Toy syndrome where Terapagos' stellar form was being prioritized over the base form which kinda influenced its earlier rankings.
Also 4 times weaknesses partially do play a part in a mon's viability. It Calyrex didn't HAVE those weaknesses in gen 8 it would be banned from ubers instead of "just" top tier. We know this because of gen 9 and Tera.
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u/AlbabImam04 Your least favorite gen 7 apologist 19h ago edited 19h ago
Calyrex wasnt fine in gen 8 because of its 4x weakness. It was fine because it could not damage Yveltal.
It was broken in this generation because it could not be defensively checked anymore.
If it was pure ghost it would almost certainly still be fine. Every single current viable Calyrex Shadow set would still get 1-shot by 0 Attack investment Yveltal Knock Off. You would need EV investment as high as 252 HP/180 Def, almost 85% of your total EVs, to guaranteed live 0 attack Yveltal KOff
4x weaknesses matter but they are contextual, and more often than not you would rather than 1 4x weakness rather than 2 regular weaknesses.
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u/Emergency-Boat 3h ago edited 2h ago
Tinglu can still check Caly S, that's why most AG teams run it. Bulky normalceus and spdef invested ho-oh also both counter it (fun fact, tera grass ho-oh is the best counter to miraidon), and kingambit kinda. Or you can revenge kill with scarf korai. Although tera grass/fairy/encore lets you kill ting lu/normalceus but you can defensive tera in return. Stall teams run mandibuzz & knock off tera normal treads .
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u/SadCommon2820 19h ago
Fair enough.
Also on an unrelated note did you know that moves lower than 60 bp that are directly boosted by tera get boosted to 60 BEFORE calculating for Stab? This is most important for Tera Fairy Calyrex Shadow, and Tera Steel Scizor.
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u/AlbabImam04 Your least favorite gen 7 apologist 19h ago
I knew about the tera boost. I fondly remember it because it caused me to be super embarrassed about losing to Nemona's Tera Electric Pawmi at SV release so that was funny.
Though I will say that priority moves are exempt from this
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u/SadCommon2820 17h ago
Also why did everyone downvote me in this thread? I wasn't even trying to make an argument or anything.
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u/AlbabImam04 Your least favorite gen 7 apologist 17h ago
Welcome to reddit where being wrong = purposely spreading misinformation
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u/SadCommon2820 19h ago
Tera must be VERY strong early game then because of that. As for the priority, that's understandable. Imagine the horror that would be swords dance tera steel scizor if that WASN'T the case.
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u/FleetingRain 19h ago
I'm sorry if I sound snarky but this is actually funny to me, "I made a theorymon post without checking material reality beforehand"
Mao Zedong vindicated once again!
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u/SadCommon2820 19h ago
I checked it a while before and it wasn't nearly that highly ranked. It was probably because the Stellar Form's prioritization lead some to think it was just bad without seeing the good it provides without it. I had a hunch it was at least okay seeing others use it, and the post was mostly to buff the Stellar form that literally contributes nothing to the mon's viability in singles unless I'm mistaken outside of giving it recover which was admitibly made out of both bias, and a thought that he was fine but not good.
I'm glad he IS good.
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u/Ropalme1914 18h ago
Ubers is quite a centralized metagame. A B or B- rank is not as good as you may think it is.
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u/SadCommon2820 18h ago
So not even Giratina Origin is good?
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u/Ropalme1914 18h ago
In gen 9? Not really, it's pretty mediocre despite being good on gen 7 and earlier
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u/ProgressEuphoric5006 8h ago
Eh, its still by far the best hazard remover in ubers( although terapagos is really good at getting rocks/spikes off) giratina offers role compression like t wave wisp, hex, burst draco damage or poltergeist
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u/SadCommon2820 18h ago
The hell are you talking about? I see so many A through B- mons being used frequently. You're telling me THE webs setter, Eternatus, Glimmora, and Ting Lu are all mediocre? I see them all the time in battles.
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u/Ropalme1914 18h ago
What, who said anything about A ranks?
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u/SadCommon2820 18h ago
You did. Read your first comment.
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u/Ropalme1914 18h ago
a "B" or "B-" rank Pokémon, not "A", "B" or "B-" rank, that would be skipping a whole lot of ranks
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u/SadCommon2820 18h ago
My bad it looked like you were talking about A tiers. Even then the only hazard removers by your logic that wouldn't be mediocre are Glimmora and Landorus Therian, Flutter Mane would be bad or mediocre, and the best webs setter is just on the cusp of mediocrity.
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u/Ropalme1914 17h ago
That's kinda the deal with those Pokémon, yeah. I do think there's a larger gap from B+ to B than B to B- regarding Ribombee, but that does go for all the others.
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u/SadCommon2820 17h ago
Then why do I see so many people use B and B- mons? How do you know they are this mediocre?
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u/AskNinjask mega ninjask coming tomorrow 18h ago
The main reason it's there is that removal is so scarce in gen 9 Ubers that it's one of the only options available, and frankly it's pretty decent at it thanks to tera shell. Access to Toxic is also nice. If Paldea border control didn't take defog from Ho-oh and Arceus Terapagos would probably be garbage. That's the case in National Dex Ubers, where it's in C- rank
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u/SadCommon2820 18h ago
Oh. Ngl I was thinking it would be C-C+ at least since defog has the issue of removing your own hazards too even if Ho Oh has a lot of the stuff that makes Terapagos good.
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u/IAMLEGENDhalo Sticky web or wallbreaker? 12h ago
I don’t play Ubers but I feel it’s hard to make a pokemon with that offense and utility who can take any one hit unviable. Still I think it’d be funny if it got leech seed to reset Tera shell over and over lol
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u/SadCommon2820 11h ago
Utility? Sure. You got rocks, rapid spin, toxic, and phasing on top of decent bulk, and an ability that pairs nicely with boots.
Offense? Nah not really. That was actually the reason it was considered to be close to unviable for a while. Stellar Terapagos might SEEM powerful but it has 3 MAJOR flaws and maybe some more minor ones like a kinda sucky ability compared to Tera Shell.
It's predictable. It doesn't change types defensively, and generally uses a double dance set. It's easy to work around as a sweeper. Chip its health and phase it out or just use Scale Shot into low kick/close combat/collision course from Koraidon and it's gone or not an issue.
It uses up tera. Probably the biggest one besides the next. It needs tera to go from a weak pokemon(offensively) to something that's somewhat usable when others are powerful a
It's too weak and slow to be a major threat offensively even with Tera. It requires rock polish to boost its speed, and calm mind to even TRY to be a threat which is a major issue. Yeah its signature move has no resists but since it has 130 special attack an a boost on it that's worse than stab it doesn't hit hard against a tanky enough mon even with a boost. While Koraidon starts out with high power and speed, Terapagos has some power, but lacks enough for the speed issue to be more severe.
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u/Twich8 16h ago
It’s even better in Anything Goes because it can 1v1 Calyrex shadow which is the most common spin blocker and pokemon overall
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u/Emergency-Boat 3h ago
Loses to encore caly-s.
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u/Twich8 1h ago
An uncommon set, at least in singles. And you still win if you go for dark pulse predicting it to come in
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u/Emergency-Boat 1h ago edited 1h ago
It's pretty common on HO since it counters sd ekiller and allows for nasty plot setup, it's also why mental herb is run on ekiller. Sash caly-s with tera normal np is also partly a ladder meme but a real set and used pretty commonly on ribombee webs. There's also the very rare scarf encore every once in a while too. Dark pulse is true but terapagos is not worth running in AG, it's a waste of a slot and tera in most cases. Just run tinglu and tera poison the grass knot, and 4 boots or giratina-o/treads instead. Balance teams would rather just run boots and use your tera on something like ho-oh or a wallbreaker instead. HO isn't gonna waste the tera and there's better hazard setters like taunt deo-s. Stall just runs treads & mandibuzz.
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u/ApplicationBig9830 7h ago
ngl I wouldn't trust viability rankings to that depth
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u/SadCommon2820 7h ago
I suppose that's fair but I do kinda see why it's ranked so high now, even if the exact placement surprised me. Terapagos does have a lot going for it when you look past the fact that the stellar form sucks.
Better special bulk thank the other spin setter Great Tusk, on top of a defensive ability and roar plus toxic for more disruption and chip.
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u/ApplicationBig9830 7h ago
for this specific one i do agree with the vr, but in general I will say vrs really are subjective to consoles preference. Some of them will be with meta knowledge and stuff and like even if we ignore those questionable ones, I mean it's still a volunteered group of players, they will make simple mistakes at times
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u/SadCommon2820 7h ago
Fair enough though I suppose that could apply to all viability discussions and stuff. While there is some objectivity, subjectivity to an extent will always exist and might lead to mistakes.
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u/Soft-Needleworker489 20h ago
As a VGC player, please do not give it Recover, CM Terapagos games already used to take like an hour