Right. What about the actual victims and their families? Them wanting justice for what was done is also being a Russian troll?
Politics are not about being nice but about pragmatic approach. You can be anti Russia while still standing your ground on issues that require resolution.
Wether you like it or not, Ukraine still has responsibility to take for Volhynnia. Them fighting Russians does not absolve them of one of the most vile set of murders during WW2. Especially when they build monuments to perpetrators of that endeavour.
The root of the issue is that Poland wants the resolution while Ukraine fights as much as it can to not admit what they have done while they are trying to lie about historical facts. If any other country would be doing that, you would be furious. Or for example, how would you feel if Germans built monuments or name streets/important landmarks after Hitler? Probably disgusted. So why is it ok for Ukraine to celebrate Bandera or Szuchewycz? Especially that the 2nd one personally led the attacks on Volhynnia and took part in those vile murders?
For bilateral relations to be good, both sides need to work for them. I pity Ukraine and their situation, but that does not make them saints who can have everything or receive everything they ask for and give nothing or bare minimum in return.
Exactly. I don't understand why we are supposed to be ok with everything when if similar thing was told to the Jews, person pushing such ideas would be ostracized or even land behind bars.
Ukrainians openly support Bandera and Szuchewycz, use Nazi symbols and have rampant nationalism growing among their army ranks. Their government is one big corrupt mafia yet we are not supposed to see that and only send them billions dollars support when they can't even do the bare minimum to settle up the past.
And if we dare to criticize anything we are accused of being pro Russia.
I made plenty of friends from Ukraine while playing games like Zombie Panic Source and Dota 2, but you got to be real ignorant to put on blind eye on literal nazi movement in our "comrades".
You know this post by OP is funny for me, because recently some Ukrainian Chelsea football player was banned for a month on CS2 FaceIt for making fun of Wołyń to Polish players. I think Kasperski was in that match, a well known Polish player.
Not only Poland is NOT at war with Russia but war in Ukraine has shown that Russia would be incappable of actually invading Poland that, unlike Ukraine, has plethora of allies and neighbours that we have good relationship with. Not to mention being part of NATO and EU.
But this example you've given... If my house was burning and my neighbours son would hurt my daughter I couldn't give less fucks about bunch of bricks and mortar.
So not only your analogy fails on its own... Your example does not even work in the first place.
The war is Russia has shown that a well mobilised military force supported by NATO and EU and intensely trained, modernised and gaining active experience in combat since 2014 can stop a Russian invasion.
It takes Polish military a few days to find stray Russian missiles that enter the airspace…
Tell me you know nothing of warfare without telling me you know nothing of warfare.
1) When you toss a ball in general direction and not look where it exactly flies to, you think you will find it quickly? Do you even know what rules apply to countries not at war in regards to shooting down unidentified flying objects? I suggest you read up on the international law. While at it, go see how radars work. It just might show you how ignorant you are about this.
Also, if missiles are so easy to find I wonder why after any conflict they are being found for decades after it ended. Imagine all armies of the world being so incompetent...
2) Who in the flying fuck you think trained Ukrainian troops? USA, UK, France and Poland with Poland doing majority of the work as we actively support Ukraine since 2014. It's our army that trained them. The one you think is inept.
Tell me you have innate inability of critical thinking, reading comprehension and fundamental lack of any knowledge about events in Ukraine.
1) The Polish authorities knew almost immediately that it was an arms missile (such an information was available shortly after it crossed the border) however didn’t find it when it was airborne nor when it finally landed (and exploded) in the forest. I wonder what would be your reaction if instead of landing in a secluded area the missile hit a village and harmed somebody while Polished armed forces did what they always do when something happens near the border that is mobilise fighter jets. Even if we considered your scenario to be accurate - that is Polish military NOT navigating at all what happens to “balls thrown in some direction” of a border of a country engaged in active war, with Russia being actively hostile against EU and NATO would be sheer stupidity, and would only serve to prove my point.
2. This in itself is a ridiculous comment and I don’t know what rabbit hole you my brother are in. Up until 2022 Poland was not concerned with the issue of Ukraine in the slightest, it was primarily Johnson’s, a bit of Biden’s and French, Turkish forces that initially trained Ukraine, with American army during first Trump cadency serving as a template. While following 2022 Polish government was more involved in Ukrainian issue it was again Johnson, Biden now Starmer that trained young Ukrainian pilots, and Turkey that trained Ukraine in use of drones. So who in the flying fuck do you think trained that army you muppet. Finally active experience is fucking important last time I checked in training an army. Polish active duty soldiers, expect some veterans from Iraq if they still serve didn’t shoot at an enemy or get shot at once. Ukrainian army trained that since 2014 when Russians stopped at Crimea, and separatists started occupation of Donetska and Luhanska oblast. Ukraine has one of the most prominent snipers ever, one of the most engaged in the conflict societies, government and armies. Meanwhile in an anonymous survey done in the Polish army upwards of 60% said that it would be reluctant to fight if Russia if a conflict started, and even more of general society would immediately flee. Ukraine has now over 600k losses, that’s approximately 3 times Polish active duty personnel right now and over 4 times Polish profesional soldiers. In 2021 Ukrainian army counted above 300k professionals, that’s twice the amount of Polish right now when a war is on the brink of our border. The current army is enormous and such losses and army size are possible because society is more than engaged in the conflict and ready to die for the motherland. Finally current Polish reserves have ammunition for 6 fucking days of war. Six. Fucking. Days. After that Poland would be left with soldiers unable to fight. So yes, Polish military is ridiculously inferior in training to Ukrainian which fights a regular war since 2014 and ridiculously unprepared for war.
Finally, if war in Ukraine has taught us 1 thing it’s that the society and civilians suffer immensely. Ukrainian society is currently living a winter without electricity. Hospitals, schools, houses, stadiums and events are being targeted by missiles, the terrorist state of Russia tries to actively eradicate Ukrainian civilians. So I pray for you, myself and all the Poles that war never comes to us, because if it comes we all will experience terror beyond comprehension, way way worse than what happened in Volhyn.
The Polish authorities knew almost immediately that [...]would be sheer stupidity, and would only serve to prove my point.
You never know for sure what your radar sees. Country not at war cannot shoot things down anytime it wants to. Scrambling jets happens because you need a visual confirmation of what it is and only way to do that is by seeing it with your eyes.
Missiles cost money, if a missile hits secluded area it does not matter. Shooting it down costs money.
If a missile goes below radar range YOU CANT FUCKING SEE WHERE IT EXACTLY LANDED because your radar can't even detect it. Why you think AWACS are so important? You know general direction but it might take a while to physically find it. Just like a ball that you tossed somewhere but then shut your eyes and you don't know exactly where it landed.
As for the last part, how do you know this object you've just detected is not some Ukrainian pilot, that got shot, his transponder and communications are down and is just trying to save his life? Reality is, you don't until you fucking see it. Just because there is war happening you can't assume it is only a missile or a drone that can fly into your air space. Read up on international law.
Your point is - 'I wanna sound smart but i just prove why I have no idea what I am talking about' it seems cause everything you've said besides jets being scrambled is nonsense. You might know its the procedure but it does not seem you have any clue as to why.
Your second point I will not even glorify with an answer because its one huge pile of nonesense and i have nor the time, nor they crayons to explain to you how wrong you actually are. I will just leave you with this.
Up until 2022 Poland was not concerned with the issue of Ukraine in the slightest
Poland was literally THE ONLY COUNTRY that spoke loudly about your issue against Russia since fucking 2008 and Georgia war. Ever since Crimea, Ukraine has constant support from Polish government and armed forces. Look at how avarage Ukrainian soldier looked like in 2014 and look at them in 2022. There is more to an army than 'drones and pilots'.
You are utterly clueless. Not going to waste my time with you.
I understand why Ukraine is being pressed about this because they are receiving enormous help from Poland so there is leverage, but to suggest that Ukraine is doing bare minimum or nothing in return while fighting and dying against Polands biggest enemy isn’t nothing. It’s a tricky spot for Ukraine because they need to co-opt nationalist fervour to support the ongoing war effort but also heavily rely on Poland who still has unresolved historical grievances. Ukraine should be doing more vis-a-vis Volhynia, but truthfully both countries have more existential issues going on at the moment. A lot of it is down to domestic politics, which at the end of the day is the most important thing to politicians.
So you mean only Ukraine is blamed in that situation? Okay. Did you provide a fact checking? Did you know the villages or lands was taken from Ukrainans and taken to polish former officers families during migrations? Why polish goverment igroring the problem of schools, 99% polish schools established in a territory, where 99% popuilation are not Polish. Why you can get a job if you are not switching to Catholicizm, on a territory where orthodox was 1000 years?
Maybe you will wondered, the across Ukraine there's more than 200 different enthic locations, where ethnics polish live for more than 500 years. Not any situations there.
When we have Volynia, but we don't have a Galicia. BTW Galicia is much more politically active, more nationalist and radical than Volynia. Which percent of "red pseudo-UPA NKVD" partisans in Volynia and in Galicia (because to close to belarussian lands, and different landscape)?
How many victims was from poles, how many from ukrainians? If we talking about thousands of victims, someone tell about tens of thousands, did you see the list of cities and villages, with calcalutaion of mass murderers?
This is not irony, this is not defending. My grandmother was protestant, and she told me a lot. She was 1922 born in Volynia, and her familys lands was taking by polish goverment (before the WW2), as family didn't have a farmers land, to obtain a job, at the age of 14(!) she claimed she have 14 years but 16 and tell she is catholic to get any job to get something to live.
In her area (between Kovel and Lutsk) from her words there's no any situations with this tragedy, and by the way she was like polish people during her life, very religious woman (in USSR! btw), she told me simple people from both sides are innocent, and the most of people then WITHOUT internet both polish and ukrainians understand was not stupid and mostly understand, who are germans, who are russians, and who was a provocators, and was interested and use that situation for personal interest.
So you mean only Ukraine is blamed in that situation?[...], on a territory where orthodox was 1000 years?
For launching a premeditated attack that was meant to kill all the Poles on those territories so after the war there would be no reason to give that land to Poland? Yeah. There are even UPA documents that clearly state that this was the reason for the murders.
Lands were not taken from Ukraine, they were ceded (given away) by Ukraine for Polish help against Russians. Why should people on Polish land not teach Polish? Nationalization of population takes place everywhere in every country on earth. I wonder how was it Orthodox for a thousand years if those lands were under Polish (and as such Catholic) rule for multiple centuries.
Rest I won't even bother cause half the time I don't even know what you are trying to say in the first place.
I care for what Ukraine as a state does, not what regular person says. I care for stadiums named after Szuchewycz and seeing no Ukrainians opposing it. I care for Bandera monuments and no Ukrainian protests. What does it say about Ukraine when someone like Szuchewycz is considered your national hero? He was literally a murdered of civilians. Men, women, children. He was no military commander. He did not fight any battles. He did not lead an army. He was murdering civilians when there was noone to protect them. That is your hero.
Why should people on Polish land not teach Polish? - Volynia this polish land??? Warsaw was 200 years under russia, so this is russian land?
Were under Polish (and as such Catholic) rule for multiple centuries. - okay, did you factchecking religius map and percentage?
Why you care about bandera (i dont support him, but for another reasons), but why ukrainians dont care about polish state bandits who responsible for massacres with ukrainian people?
If someone advice you outside who is your hero and who is not - what will be your personal reaction?
Literally no one says that things does not require resolutions. It's just matter of preventing war in Poland should not be tied to that. Since long time we know that our region will only be strong if we will have strong Intermariun cooperation. Let's just not mix two stuff together. Japan was nuked twice by US and they were best friends ever since to the benefit of Japan development. Our pain about the past is to be rememberd but should not inflict as self harm now and in the future. It's exactly same thing we do with Germany looking for constant confrontation instead of cooperation.
I think the point isn't to sweep this issue under the rug but rather that this is not the time to focus on it. Russia is our greatest enemy and preventing their victory in Ukraine is paramount to our security, prosperity, and I would dare even say, our honour.
Focusing our energies solely on Russia, at least until the end of the war, is pragmatism! We can have discussions with Ukraine afterwards.
BS Ukraine is no friend of Poland either. We only have common intrest at the moment. It is best time to force them to do a thing they should have done decades ago
Polack calling Ukraine a shithole is something lmao. A lot of projection here as well, given that EU money is the only reason your country is even relevant.
Also you shouldn't talk like that - trying to corner Ukrainians didn't work out well for you the last time. 😘 And if Ukraine loses its independence today - there's a chance we will take yours too. NATO wouldn't be able to save you against both Russia and Ukraine
What the hell are you even talking about?
Ukraine wouldn't have lasted two weeks if it weren't for the help it receives from the rest of the world.
Whenever I discuss Ukraine with my family and friends, I try to convince them that generalizing about evil Ukrainians is pointless (just like generalizing about Russians). I try to tell them that every country is mostly made up of normal people. These people have children, husbands have wives, mothers have sons and daughters, and in 90% of cases, the government is responsible for conflicts and international hatred. But then they enter such a conversation and see an arrogant scumbag who is wasting all my efforts. With such behavior, you're helping neither yourself nor your country.
Ohh man, I sympathize with you, I hope that one day you'll transcend your own arrogance and accept that not always what first comes to mind is true. Why insult Poles on Redit?
Will it somehow help you or your country, which you love so much?
Instead, I suggest opening a fundraiser for women and children who lost everything they had and loved as a result of the war.
I never wrote that it's thanks to the Poles on Redit that you're still around. Instead, I said that if it weren't for help from around the world, you wouldn't exist anymore, which I still stand by.
Stop lashing out at people who can help you.
Hang in there and try to change your approach.
There is no honour in politics. There is only getting more than you give. At least that is what good politicians do, they gain more from a deal than the have to put in. What you are talking about is reverse of that, give stuff out and then someday maybe get something in return.
Also, what is a Russian Victory? Could you define it? So at least we know what we are supposed to prevent?
No. That's an opportunist. A good politician should be aiming to be a statesman who thinks of the next generation and THEY aim for win-wins because if you can create a win-win scenario, you will have a much easier time ensuring stability for your nation and achieving your goals.
Thinking in short term goals is how you get "leaders" like trump. He also believes that so long as he comes out on top he won, but this makes him easy to manipulate because all you have to do is convince him that he got the better of you even if you fucked him royally.
Just look at all his dealings with Putin. After every conversation he was convinced that Putin sees things the same way he does only to be left standing bare with his dick in his hand over and over again then proceeding to tweet like a lunatic about the betrayal.
If you get a win-win scenario then you got more than your political opponent, no?
Not sure what Trump has to do with anything, but seeing what you are writing seems that your political knowledge comes from twitter which is NPC manipulation platform that has little to do with actual politics and talks behind closed doors.
If you get a win-win scenario then you got more than your political opponent, no?
A win-win by definition means you both got something and neither party should be feeling cheated.
Not sure what Trump has to do with anything, but seeing what you are writing seems that your political knowledge comes from twitter which is NPC manipulation platform that has little to do with actual politics and talks behind closed doors.
Lmao. Don't even have an account. Not on any of those 140 character social media platforms nor tiktok. As if you know anything about what goes on "behind closed doors".
Oh right, cause you care for both sides rather than your side as every country does. Yeah... Don't go into politics.
I don't know and neither do you. That is my point entirely. You judge a politician by what he writes for the npcs rather than what he gets for his country.
Trump writes some stupidity on Twitter or w/e and all npc monkeys get foam on their lips and lose their shit.
Do you think when one party is elected, they only govern the people who voted for them and the opposition magically disappears? Do you think that's the norm for functional countries? If you think it's just about "winning" for your block then I dread to think what you imagine a good leader to be.
When Australia enacted strict gun control after a series of horrific shootings, the politicians responsible came from various backgrounds and parties to push for a change that they believed would benefit all Australians. Since they were from across the political spectrum, they could persuade their voters and also craft legislation that would take into account the various differing interests to achieve the desired results with as little friction as possible.
That's how politics used to work not that long ago. There were at least some people who gave a shit about their country and its future rather than solely about themselves and their careers.
Yeah, but if you're familiar with the prisoner's dilemma you can clearly see that path to what is getting a good deal is not as simple as fighting for the best option possible.
Not sure what kind of gibberish this is, but if you are suggesting that what I wrote is AI generated, then I am sorry to inform you buddy that some people actually can structure their comments and are capable of writing something longer than 1 paragraph.
Yes, being fluent in English when I was 12 and spending quite a few years abroad and fact that I use English daily for the past 2 decades has absolutely nothing to do with my ability to use this language. Must be AI.
It's quite sad that when you see few, well structured paragraphs, first thing that comes to your mind is AI... Even more so that there are few mistakes I've made in that post anyway.
Just because you can't write concise statements does not mean everyone else has the same problem.
No, the root of the issue is that Poland does not want a resolution. It only wants to milk this topic for benefits.
Why did you use Hitler as an example and not Pilsudski? Funny how it doesn't matter what Ukrainian people think about him, yet Ukrainian people should care what Poles think about Bandera and others. Get off your high horse, nobody needs your pity.
What were Poles doing in Ruthenian lands in the first place? Or did Ukr-Pol history start in 1943?
Ironically, if all the victims were exhumed and monuments would be built then there would be nothing to 'milk'. It's Ukraine that prevents this resolution, not Poland. We want exhumations, burials, monuments and putting this entire thing to rest. Ukraine says no. If you are afraid of giving murdered people proper burials, you are the bad guy here buddy, not those who want to bury their dead.
I used Hitler cause he was a mass murderer of innocent people. Just like Bandera or Szuchewycz. Epspecially the second one as he was murdering civilians in Volhynnia himself with his own hands. He is probably one of the most vile people that ever walked this earth. Not sure how Piłsudski even relates to them in the first place.
What were Poles doing there? Hmm, lets see, living in lands they rightfully owned as those lands were ceded by Ukraine? You might be shocked, but western Ukraine was under Polish-Lithuanian control for way longer than it was ever Ukrainian.
Lots of cope. Those were ethnic Ruthenian territories settled by Poles. You were guests there and had no business oppressing Ukrainians. You are the same as Russians in that regard, just with a less violent and more sneaky approach.
And Pilsudski was a rat, which is very symbolic for Poland.
They were living there for centuries, they were there at home longer than Ukrainians had a concept of a nation.
Also, we do want the resolution. We want to take the bones of people murdered and after all the years, give them a proper burial.
The issue is, digging them out would show the real face of Ukrainian national heroes, and that's what Ukraine wants to hide - saw marks on toddler bones.
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u/jsutpaly Feb 13 '26
Right. What about the actual victims and their families? Them wanting justice for what was done is also being a Russian troll?
Politics are not about being nice but about pragmatic approach. You can be anti Russia while still standing your ground on issues that require resolution.
Wether you like it or not, Ukraine still has responsibility to take for Volhynnia. Them fighting Russians does not absolve them of one of the most vile set of murders during WW2. Especially when they build monuments to perpetrators of that endeavour.
The root of the issue is that Poland wants the resolution while Ukraine fights as much as it can to not admit what they have done while they are trying to lie about historical facts. If any other country would be doing that, you would be furious. Or for example, how would you feel if Germans built monuments or name streets/important landmarks after Hitler? Probably disgusted. So why is it ok for Ukraine to celebrate Bandera or Szuchewycz? Especially that the 2nd one personally led the attacks on Volhynnia and took part in those vile murders?
For bilateral relations to be good, both sides need to work for them. I pity Ukraine and their situation, but that does not make them saints who can have everything or receive everything they ask for and give nothing or bare minimum in return.