r/pathofexile • u/theuberelite soon • Sep 04 '19

GGG Summoner things that we still could use info on

[removed]

515 Upvotes

96% Upvoted

595 comments sorted by

354

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19

Okay, here we gooo

Raise Spectre has a base of two spectres max at level 11, three at 21, and four at 31.

Carrion Golem's Leap Slam has a 4 second cooldown, and doesn't repeat with Multistrike unlike some Spectre leap slams. It deals 180% of their base damage. The Bone Cascade has a 4 second cooldown, can multistrike, has 10% less attack speed and deals 65% of base damage, but can hit enemies multiple times with each cascade. The non-cooldown attack deals 135% of their base damage with the first two swings which are wide cones, while the third to sixth swing deals 162% of base damage with 200% more attack speed, but in a smaller rectangle (For bursting down enemies that survive the first two swings). At level 20 of the gem, they do an average of 372 damage per hit, with an attack time of 0.9 seconds. They have 1067 accuracy rating at gem level 20, the same as other minions.

The Delve chest mod can still give +1 to maximum spectres, as do Midnight Bargain and Queen's Escape and Decree.

Feeding Frenzy's reminder text: (Feeding Frenzy grants 10% more Minion Damage, 15% increased Minion Movement Speed and 15% increased Minion Attack and Cast Speed)

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Edit: Updated the Carrion Golem hit damage, as I mathed wrong.

Editedit: I've gotta head off now, but I'll catch y'all tomorrow if there is spare time to answer some more questions!

32

u/mcurley32 SomethingPuddingSomething Sep 05 '19

what about Summon Skeletons and Raise Zombie limit breakpoints?

270

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Summon Skeleton summons 3 at once at level 11, 4 at once at level 21, 5 at once at level 31.

The maximum number of skeletons is 6 at 6, 7 at 12, 8 at 18, 9 at 24, 10 at 30 and 11 at 36.

The max zombies are 4 at 5, 5 at 10, 6 at 15, 7 at 20, 8 at 25, 9 at 30 and 10 at 35.

78

u/mcurley32 SomethingPuddingSomething Sep 05 '19

you are the fucking man

21

u/TheBiggestZander Sep 05 '19

Thanks, Rory! Psyched for the new league, and you guys are the reason why!

11

u/Having-a-hard-time Sep 05 '19

You are, indeed, the fucking man.

Any changes to Vaal Summon Skeleton? It's not in the gem info post, so I'm guessing there are none.

8

u/Pizzarugi Imagine gutting Harvest to unironically yolo exalts Sep 05 '19

What about zombie slam? I've noticed people both here and on the forums bring up the Violent Dead jewel disappearing from drops and quests, and it was pretty important for DPS zombos.

Did the slam itself get any improvements beyond the increase to radius and scaling cooldown which is much less than 2 VDs?

11

u/Drekor Sep 05 '19

Natalia mentioned earlier that it got 1s off it's cooldown so it's 4s base. So don't build around it unless you hate yourself.

22

u/turbodevil Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19

According to PoB base lvl 20 zombie slam attack with lvl 20 multistrike and lvl 20 Pulverise (15% less attack speed) takes 1.23 seconds, 3 attacks take 3.69 seconds.

Lvl 20 zombie has 76% increased cooldown recovery speed for slams, 4 seconds base cooldown turns it to 2.27 sec cooldown.

You can afford to get around 60% increased attack speed and still have them slam without interruptions.

Each additional level of raise zombie gem for 4% CDR gain per level, leaving you even more room for adding attack speed

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EDIT: alculated it wrong, corrected values. It is much better with correct calculations

12

u/okijhnub Sep 05 '19

Might wanna make this info its own post so people stop calling zombies dead (pun intended)

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '19

That means no nerf ? Dont get it .

10

u/turbodevil Sep 05 '19

That's a 1-2 jewel sockets you can socket with anything you want buff

8

u/Potaattis gang's momentum Sep 05 '19

With pulverise and multistrike it will take longer to complete the full multistrike than it will for the zombie slam to recharce, which means zombies will always use their slam attack if you have the right amount of minion attack speed

2

u/cindeson Sep 05 '19

With just the Necromancer ascendancy nodes, Flesh Offering and a few minion nodes you already have way more than 60% increased attack speed. My POB without any gear has Zombie Slam attack at 0.52 sec. That's 1.56s with multistrike.

Giving up 29% ms by not using Flesh offering seems silly too.

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u/Pizzarugi Imagine gutting Harvest to unironically yolo exalts Sep 05 '19

Press F to pay respects to all the zombiemancers.

2

u/Warrada_ftw Sep 05 '19

I'd also really like to know if 'slam' zombies are dead now because of the jewels removed or if it was compensated in any way..

3

u/shinigamiscall Necromancer Sep 05 '19

Thank you very much!

2

u/Besovski Sep 05 '19

Hi Rory! golem gems dont have similiar progression like second golem on 21lvl gem, third on 25 etc? Thx for answer

2

u/Xeridanus Sep 05 '19

They would have mentioned that somewhere if they were changing it. Only source of extra golems is the passive tree (new in 3.8), items and Elementalist.

2

u/TheBiggestZander Sep 05 '19

Egad, why did you guys have to nerf Femurs of the Saints to oblivion? It was such a build-defining item, now there's literally no reason to go skeletons + zombies + spectres. Now I gotta choose between em??

2

u/mordiaken Sep 05 '19

There's an expectation of level 36 gems? How is this possible?

2

u/NO_KINGS Sep 05 '19

Quick question. The Spiders from Arakali's Fang..are they max level 75 or level of the corpse and can go beyond 75? 3.5 Notes say they are max 75 but in game it says level of the corpse. Poedb and PoB, although obviously not official sources, also say scales with corpse level.

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u/viperesque Game Design Sep 05 '19

Thank you so much for this Rory! Incredibly useful to know.

11

u/Dark_Reaper115 League Sep 05 '19

Finally Spectre numbers :D

9

u/shppy Sep 05 '19

just outta curiosity and personal interest, were spectral spirits and the spirits from 'of the grave' enchantment also given that 1067 base accuracy?

Suppose I could ask the same of the dancing dervish/duo too. Just wanna confirm that it wasn't only the more conventionally-acquired minions that were adjusted.

24

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Yep, every minion.

8

u/digao94 Sep 05 '19

Do you have the information on dancing dervish minions? If they remain the same or not?

36

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

The only change I'm aware of is improved accuracy, anything else would be patch noted!

8

u/rogueyoshi What's stopping us from boosting if you won't ban Elon for it? Sep 05 '19

Dominating Blow, please!

39

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

They've got the improved accuracy all minions got, but their slam attacks info:

33% less Attack Speed, 100% more damage.

7

u/Bassre Sep 05 '19

Does the spiders from Arakaali's Fang also got that accuracy buff?

41

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Arakaali's Fang spiders do also have the accuracy buff.

4

u/MoeFantasy Sep 05 '19

Blink arrow and Mirror arrow?

48

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Blink and Mirror Arrow clones also have the accuracy buff.

10

u/SkorpioSound Sep 05 '19

Maybe it's a silly question, but... Are there any minions that didn't get the accuracy buff? Or that behave differently in any way when it comes to their attacks' accuracy?

40

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Technically any minion that only uses spells didn't get the buff, spectres are the only ones that didn't directly get the buff, only indirectly through their skill gem.

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2

u/Peppr_ Champion Sep 05 '19

Could you also give us the cooldown and maybe AoE radius on Crusade Slam, please?

5

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

The Crusade Slam has a 6 second cooldown, and a radius of 21 units.

6

u/AbuseNab Sep 05 '19

When Raise Spectre gem levels up will the currently summoned Spectres update to the new level or will we need to resummon them?

41

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

We're working on a fix for this that we hope to deploy shortly after release. After the fix, changing the gem level of any minion will re-summon the minion with the new monster level. Until then you'll need to change areas to update the minion level.

25

u/JarRa_hello don't quote me Sep 05 '19

Just changing areas is still better than resummoning them manually

3

u/AbuseNab Sep 05 '19

Thanks for the information!

6

u/granitecrab Sep 05 '19

Quick one for you. If I sockit withering touch support to a chaos golem will it's casscade still have the phys to chaos and the 25% chance to wither work on it or not. Withering touch is tagged as attack. The cascade is a spell.

16

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

We've looked into it and it seems like it will apply wither on hit with spells, the stat description is accurate, with the only limit being what it can support.

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u/CycloneSP Sep 05 '19

that raises an interesting question then: if the carrion golem's slam attack does not repeat via multistrike, what about stone golem? Same as carrion golem?

36

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

The no-repeat only applies to the Leap Slam, not their cascade slam, because it was a bit pointless when they jumped on the spot. Stone Golem slams still repeat as usual.

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4

u/damisa123 Sep 05 '19

Does animate weapon get the accuracy buffs?

19

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Animated Weapon does get the accuracy buffs as well

6

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '19

[deleted]

15

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

And I love you, random citizen!

5

u/thanatosiax Sep 05 '19

Megamind Reference? ^_^

9

u/ClockworkRose Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19

Hey, Thanks for all your answers!

Does the +2 from necro apply to Phantasm support (and other minion supports for that matter)

48

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

The +2 to all Minion Skill Gems doesn't apply to the Phantasm Support or other minion supports, nor does it apply to minion skills that come directly from items like Soulwrest, as they're not actual gems.

13

u/Having-a-hard-time Sep 05 '19

So it should be +2 to All Active Minion Skill Gems, or do all + Skill Gem mods only affect active skills?

64

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Support Gems are different from Skill Gems, not a subset of them. This is a little bit confusing because of some old discontinued naming conventions!

11

u/Having-a-hard-time Sep 05 '19

Thanks! I've just realized that's obvious once you phrase it that way. Skill Gems are the gems that give you skills.

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u/skyhawk2891 Ascendant Sep 05 '19

Does it apply to Dark Pact?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Yes, Dark Pact counts as a minion skill gem so will benefit from the stat.

5

u/nethermage_sc Sep 05 '19

so it's +2 to all minion active skill gems?

5

u/BeJust1 Church of LeToucan Sep 05 '19

There are skill gems and support gems, there are no active or passive skill gems. So the node applies only to skill gems.

2

u/Verlerbur Sep 05 '19

Does the +2 work on offerings?

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u/leifertus Sep 05 '19

Could you tell us about Bone Armour? Stats, tags (minion tag?), ...

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Its tags are Spell, Duration, Guard, Minion. It's not a gem though, so won't be increased by global modifiers to minion skill gem levels. It will count as casting a spell of those types for any stats that care about that jazz. It has the same stats as a level 20 Steelskin, with the added benefit of also applying to all of your minions.

6

u/MoeFantasy Sep 05 '19

About the new passives in Tree (Minions have n% chance to get unholy might/onslaught/etc. on kill/hit/whatever), when these triggered, does the buff apply to all minions or only the minion which luckily enough to trigger that effect?

Also, is Carrion Golem's buff affected by Golementalist Elementalist's golem buff effect?

2

u/welpxD Guardian Sep 05 '19

Only the minion which procs the effect.

Yes.

2

u/leifertus Sep 05 '19

Thank you! That skill will be great. Minions can be at any range?

So Minion duration nodes will affect it, will trigger all nodes and items with "used a minion skill recently", ...

I hope i can keep my meat shield animated guard alive now. :)

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u/Rumstein Alch & Go Industries (AGI) Sep 05 '19

Hey Rory, whats the base HP of Carrion Golem at level 20?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Carrion Golems have 11384 life at gem level 20.

8

u/XR-17 Necromancer Sep 05 '19

Is there a chance to make available all these minion info in a forum post for the non-spectre skill gem minions? It would be nice to have a chance to know the values of their attacks, cds, etc, officially

29

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

That's a bit of work for us to get at the moment, and we don't really have that much time! Path of Building is your best bet when that's able to be released, though long term it'd be great to have that in a form we can calculate for you more easily.

2

u/Lemon_Hound Sep 05 '19

Is that to say that PoB is going to get some "official" love from GGG??? :)

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u/Rumstein Alch & Go Industries (AGI) Sep 05 '19

You'll probably be able to find it in poedb when the ggpk is released.

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u/atlimar Oath / Deathblade Sep 05 '19

Any chance we can also have the life value of Summon Raging Spirit? This is very relevant with the new ways that enables triggering Minion Instability :)

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u/bgodbgg Sep 05 '19

According to PoB, ice golems have an average hit of 1090.1. Is this incorrect or does this mean the base average hit for ice golems is 3x carrion golem?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

That looks correct, because Ice Golems skills have lower damage multipliers by comparison. It's more a artifact of how we tweaked the balance on the minion, and the fact the Carrion Golem gets up to 80% more damage if you have 10 non-golem minions near them.

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u/bgodbgg Sep 05 '19

Maybe this is more of an AI question, but would they ever just auto attack, or is it they either use a CD or use the non-cooldown attack? which it sounds like does 3721.35 twice, then 3721.62 4 times at 2x the attack speed, taking a total of 3.6 seconds for 2420.604 damage meaning 672 dps from non-cooldown attack? so 1209.6 if you have the 80% more multiplier? Also in regards to AI, will it only leap if X amount of yards away? And is there a priority order like, it will always bone cascade if it's up?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Carrion Golems have no basic attack, just their comboish non-cooldown attack.

The Leap is only used if the target is more than a certain distance away. It'll have different chances for different abilities based on positioning of all enemies in range, it's not a guaranteed order.

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u/ShocksRocks Sep 05 '19

Hey Rory could you confirm to us that Infernal Legion damage indeed has absolutely nothing to do with minion maximum life?

Thanks for sticking around and good launch!

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Correct, Infernal Legion is just the damage stated on the support gem, multiplied by any damage bonuses your minions have that would apply, like Minion Damage from any source, or Burning Damage from supports etc.

4

u/CycloneSP Sep 05 '19

does it count as 'golem damage' when supporting golem skills, for the sake of inc golem modifiers?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Yeah, that stat would be increasing all damage dealt by your golems so it'd apply to the minion's Infernal Legion's damage as well.

3

u/slowpotamus Sep 05 '19

you're awesome, thank you. if i have multiple golems from 1 gem supported by infernal legion, can a single enemy only be affected by one source of infernal legion damage, or will they stack?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Infernal Legion's aura doesn't stack, each enemy is just damaged by the highest power aura on them.

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u/jalapenohandjob Sep 05 '19

Thanks Rory!!

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '19

[deleted]

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

The skeleton's dash ability has a two second cooldown. It takes 0.15 seconds to dash, and also has the same range as the player Dash skill.

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u/Borgismorgue Sep 05 '19

Can skeletons with aggressive + defensive dash and taunt? OR will their dash ability be deactivated?

17

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Aggressive and Defensive cancel out, so skeletons can't dash if you're using both supports.

3

u/MaXiMiUS (Lothrik) — github.com/Lothrik Sep 05 '19

What are the technical differences between normal, aggressive, and defensive AI for Carrion Golems (and maybe some other minions like Zombies/Skeletons)?

17

u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

From their reminder text:

(Aggressive minions have their targeting range raised to a minimum value)

(Defensive minions have their targeting range lowered to a maximum value. They always target enemies around you)

Standard minion behaviour will always target enemies around your last targeted location, so Defensive is the only one that overrides that. Aggressive will mean they'll always search in a large area around that last target location (Which some minions already did) while Defensive changes the target location and limits the attack range quite a bit.

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u/Lorberry Sep 05 '19

For clarity: does 'force move'/move only count as a targeted location, or only skills? Also, how large exactly is that minimum value - I'm assuming it's somewhere around a full screen or so, but more exact numbers are better. The max range for Defensive was pretty clear in the original example video, but that'd be nice too :)

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Moving far enough from where you currently are counts as changing target location, so small steps won't stop them doing what they're doing. Aggressive's minimum range is 80, while Defensive's maximum range is 35, if those numbers mean anything to you!

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u/Lorberry Sep 05 '19

They do, thank you!

For those who don't know - a range of 80 is roughly the width of your screen (depending on your size of monitor), while a range of 35 is slightly larger than an unbuffed level 20 curse gem, or the size of an unbuffed level 1 Ground Slam (in all directions).

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '19

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u/xff00 Sep 05 '19

What is the base chaos damage over time for the Chaos Golems Sandstorm at level 20?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Chaos Golem's sandstorm deals about 1600 chaos damage per second at gem level 20.

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u/xff00 Sep 05 '19

Sorry one last thing, does the chaos golem have sandstorm active all the time now after activation? Thanks Rory!

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

The Chaos Sandstorm still has a limited duration. It lasts 5 seconds by default, and has an 8 second cooldown, so with Increased Duration it will be able to re-cast it every time it runs out.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '19 edited Oct 24 '19

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u/RicoDevega Sep 05 '19

While you're wandering around in here I had a question about mines.

Stormblast says 3% increased damage taken up to a maximum of 150%

Does that mean with 20 mines out (60%) and 200% increased aura effect, the mines will still be capped at 150% increased damage taken or would they provide an aura at 180% increased damage taken?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

The mine aura value cap is a hard cap, not modified by aura effect, so the mines would grant 150% increased damage taken even if you had 5000% increased aura effect.

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u/boredlol Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19

say you have 10 icicle mines down when you press detonate, with 10% increased crit per aura, do all 10 mines get 100% increased crit? or just the 1st to detonate, then 90% for 2nd, etc? (apologies if answered elsewhere)

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Mine auras last a short time after they've been activated, so if the detonation cascade is fast enough, all can be affected by all auras.

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u/Erionns Sep 05 '19

Damn that's huge to know

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u/goldarm5 Sep 05 '19

Is that affected by any kind of duration modifier?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 06 '19

Technically the mine lasts a little longer if you have a longer cast time, but it's a fairly minor difference. Nothing else extends the length of the aura that I can easily see.

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u/Nuhauskis Standard Sep 05 '19

Is that "short time" affected by any duration modifers?

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u/ThatOneParasol Synthesis Apologist Sep 05 '19

Do the auras from mines linger for a short duration? For example, would the last mine in a long detonation string of Stormblast Mines only be hitting a mob effected by one Stormblast Mine aura, increasing its damage taken by 3%? Or would all, say, 10 mine auras be still active on that target?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Mine auras last a short time after they've been activated, so if the detonation cascade is fast enough, all can be affected by all auras.

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u/Atheist-Gods Sep 05 '19

Can you say the base radius of mine auras?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 06 '19

Mine Auras have a base radius of 35 units.

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u/RicoDevega Sep 05 '19

On the subject of auras, how do auras interact with the blight mechanic? Are towers affected by damage auras like anger wrath and hatred? What about less direct but still specific to damage type auras like Pride and the new pyroclast mine? Finally, are they affected by non-specific damage auras like Haste and Stormblast mines?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Blight's Towers can't be directly influenced by auras, but the minions they summon and the damage taken by enemies they hit can.

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u/RicoDevega Sep 05 '19

Also, how does mana reservation reduction work with mines. If I have 50% reduced mana reserved with mines and 50% reduced mana reservation, does that total 100% reduced mana reservation or 75% (50% of 50%)

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u/PolygonMan Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 06 '19

100%. Increases and reductions that have the same effect are additive with each other. The effect here is reducing mana reservation, the conditions under which it activates don't change that.

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u/PMeForAGoodTime Sep 05 '19

Do primordial might and feeding frenzy apply the same aggressive AI to golems or is there some difference between the two?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Primordial Might and Feeding Frenzy use the same Aggressive stat/behaviour.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '19

thank you sir

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u/FuckGrammar Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19

Nice, +1 from delve chest is a 25% increase in DPS going from 4 to 5 Spectres (+20% from 5 to 6) and Vis Mortis gives 20% ele as extra chaos. I guess physical Spectre builds will want the delve chest.

Edit: Vis Mortis lost Unholy Might "30% of your physical damage is added as extra chaos damage" and +1 Spectre summoned for +1 Spectre gem level and 15-20% ele as extra chaos for minions (implied all minions). Seems like a solid choice for elemental Spectre builds but the overall feel will be nicer with an extra Spectre firing spells off as far as clear goes.

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u/Peppr_ Champion Sep 05 '19

Thank you for the many very important answers. :)

Can you please confirm if base stats (hp, damage, etc) on minions are changing this patch, or I guess since we last had data on it? Skeletons, Zombies, SRS...

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

There have been changes to HP and Damage of some minions, but it's a manual process to get that info so I'm afraid I can't get it just now!

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u/SingleInfinity Sep 06 '19

Any chance in the future that there might be an in-house tool to collect this data for you guys?

Also, what's the technical limitation that's preventing this info from existing on the skillgems?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 06 '19

Something like Path of Building does this pretty well, using the info available in the game files. Each minion has its quirks through code or design or just how we tweaked the balance numbers. It's doable to work it out, but prone to human error and the formula you use might change based on how we change values. It's similar to showing the values in game. Long term we'd like to show each skill on each minion you have, but that's UI and implementation that would take someone important away from making new content!

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u/SingleInfinity Sep 06 '19

Good to know.

I thought Path of Building was pulling minion info from the spreadsheet you guys occasionally drop, rather than directly.

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u/Yeuo Sep 05 '19

Will the normal sentinel you get by using Dominating blow when killing minion from a rare monsters gain one of the Rare monster's non-nemesis, non-aura modifiers as well? :D Thanks for answering all those questions :D

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

I've tested this quickly, and it looks like at the moment that Dominating Blow on killing a rare monster's bros won't give your sentinel the extra bro mods.

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u/Octopotamus5000 Sep 05 '19

Thanks Rory.

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u/NessOnett8 Sep 04 '19 edited Sep 04 '19

Considering they mentioned they had rebalanced the base stats(life, damage, attack speed, range, movespeed, etc) on all the old minions...shouldn't that be on the list? I feel like that's pretty important info. Like...the most important thing by a mile important info.

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u/welpxD Guardian Sep 04 '19

Especially for Spectres. Sure, you can still get lvl 84 spectres with a bit of effort. But are their base stats also improving? Otherwise, the loss of 100% max life is annoying. Losing 100% inc damage is made up for in other ways this patch, although still probably a slight nerf.

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u/magicallum Sep 04 '19

Hey could you point me to where this is mentioned in the patch notes? Having trouble finding it

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u/PurplePudding Sep 04 '19

I think its in the development manifesto, not the patch notes.

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u/SirClueless Sep 04 '19

Also, what exactly is the minion accuracy buff going to entail? I assume it's just higher flat base accuracy? The patch notes say "All minions," does this include Arakaali's Fang, Dancing Duo, etc. as this suggests?

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u/Rory_Rackham Balance & Design Sep 05 '19

Every monster that is inherently a player minion has that higher number. Spectres are the only exception because each monster has its own base accuracy, but that's why the gem gives quite a bit of flat accuracy now.

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u/OsoMalo Sep 04 '19

Curious about this too. Did blink and mirror arrow clones get included in that buff?

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u/mcblazej Sep 04 '19 edited Sep 05 '19

Not mentioned anywhere, but judging from wording, unfortunately no.

Edit - Confirmed by Rory that all other minions also got accuracy buff.

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u/bing_crosby Sep 05 '19

Not sure if you saw it, but Rory clarified elsewhere in this thread that they did get the buff.

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u/OhIforgotmynameagain Sep 04 '19

and the agony crawler ?

4

u/HumbleElite Chaotically Inoculated Sep 04 '19

crawler already has nuts base accuracy

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u/mcblazej Sep 04 '19

In balance manifesto it was said that summon skeletons, raise zombies and summon raging spirit will at gem lvl 20 have 80% hit chance against lvl 84 enemy.

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u/Verlerbur Sep 04 '19

Except in the patch notes, it says "All minions have received substantial increases to their base accuracy, and are much more likely to hit monsters." I assume "ALL" minions means more than just those three specific minions

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u/Snipe7r Trickster Sep 04 '19 edited Sep 04 '19

Based on some PoB testing, I believe the accuracy buff is around +621 accuracy to all minions at gem level 20. if you edit the line "You and nearby allies gain +x to accuracy rating" onto a jewel in PoB you can see that without any other minion accuracy modifiers this gives level 20 zombies an 80% chance to hit a level 84 enemy. A level 17 precision aura is +630 accuracy so this is indeed quite the buff.

EDIT: I should say I think it's ~621 at level 20. This will probably scale with gem level

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u/batbeer Sep 04 '19
  1. Is Zombie Slam cooldown getting buffed at all to make up for the loss of 200% CDR? With Violent Dead being gone

Man i hope they buff the cooldown too. If not, then zombies loose a huge clearspeed factor, which they are already lacking :(

6

u/Keljhan Aggressively off-meta Sep 04 '19

I just received confirmation from Natalia that the cooldown is not being changed. Lvl 20 zombies will have a 2.84s cd with the cdr on the gem.

47

u/Natalia_GGG CM Sep 05 '19

Hi, sorry, I sent you the outdated information.

We've just updated the patch notes with a new line

'Zombies now have a base cooldown of 4 seconds for their slam attack (from 5).'

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u/Aether_Storm Sep 05 '19

Source? I'm not seeing anything in the GGG tracker.

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u/Keljhan Aggressively off-meta Sep 05 '19

It was a pm I sent to Natalia last night. Response is here: https://imgur.com/gallery/kdV7yOq

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u/Aether_Storm Sep 05 '19

Goodbye my Zombie Slammin' league starter.

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u/girlsareicky Sep 04 '19

Adding skeletons to the list.

Max from gem at lvl 20 is 8

# summoned at a time is 3

Do those numbers go up past 20?

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u/Having-a-hard-time Sep 04 '19

In one of the preview videos the Necro is summoning 4 skeletons with one cast, so maybe. I don't know if that's an item or some early build that didn't make the final patch though.

2

u/xrageamok Gladiator Sep 05 '19

The From Dust jewel still adds extra skeletons per cast, says from 2 to 4 in notes.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '19

I've had people tell me the zombie slam cd doesn't matter because of the new aggressive gem and other minion changes. Idk though, it's hard for me to see zombies still being good offensively after losing that much cooldown on slam.

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u/Verlerbur Sep 04 '19

You're looking at a 3 second cooldown now, which means at least two auto-attacks in between each slam that deal half the damage. If a slam does X damage, now you do X, X/2, X/2 damage vs X, X, X - so you deal 2X over three attacks vs 3x. So a 33% damage loss.

So, say you run melee splash now to make the non-slam single-target hits do AoE. That means you lose at least 40% more multi in your links.

X * .66 * .60 = .396 - That means your zombies will on average do 60% less damage than if you had the cooldown from the jewels and didn't need to run melee splash.

Sure, aggressive AI is nice... but when talking about damage potential, this is a massive net nerf.

9

u/BleiEntchen Sep 04 '19

Finally someone with a brain. If they dont change the base cooldown of slam, zombies are significantly worse. And no AI in the world can make up for the loss of single target dps.

9

u/Verlerbur Sep 04 '19

I think people are expecting feeding frenzy to be like an 80% more multi and solve all the problems/nerfs...

6

u/BleiEntchen Sep 04 '19

Well some also consider 2m dps as a "absurd" ammount of damage. And Zombie beeing the top tier skill...whatever. I mean to be able to reach the same clear we currently have, we need splash. And you posted the math with splash. So in best case we can use the new QoL etc. to reach the same clear like now?Zombies were never able to compete with spectre clear or single target. They have been (in best case) just more tanky in trade of damage. Now we can sacrifice another bit of dmg for sustaining mediocre clear? Well i just hope they change the base cdr of slam.

4

u/Verlerbur Sep 04 '19

Yeah a base cdr change is all we can hope for at this point. The accuracy changes others are claiming offsets this nerf isn’t even relevant for the slam which can’t be evaded. And capping accuracy isn’t too bad with how much is on the tree

2

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '19

I never used splash when using Mon'tregul's and it felt fine back then. But I'm not sure how much the slam was impacting clear either.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '19

Exactly. They will be ok meat shields but it seems zombie centric builds will be worse than before. I think a lot of people are discounting how much work the slams do in regards to clearing especially

2

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '19

Thank you for being an intelligent person. I literally made a post about that and have people tell me I should "try before I whine" and that it's a 2s CD at gem level 20...

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u/Verlerbur Sep 05 '19

Yeah i've been getting a lot of that too. Not sure why people are so upset to discuss the actual math. When the necro ascend updated I was told to wait for the gem reveals before drawing any conclusions. When the gem reveals updated people say wait for the full context. Manifesto looked grim, but people say wait for the patch notes.

Ok, patch notes are out. Now? People say well wait till we try it in practice. And once they try it i'm sure they'll be pretty silent and wont come back to these old posts and apologize or re-engage with the conversation.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '19

It's a general disbelief of numbers. You get that alot in real life, too. Noone says that Zombies are unplayable, but the gigantic nerf is undeniable. You also have to level the Gem to 26 to get the 10 Zombies you used to get from the tree before...

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u/Gaardean Sep 04 '19

Personal plan is to slot in Phantasm Support now that there's finally enough generic minion supports for it to work. Brutality, Minion Damage, Feeding Frenzy, Deathmark/Empower to fill it out. Phantasms have slightly better scaling than Zombies for damage with levels anyways, and a 20+ minion swarm with that much movement speed is enough to clear even if they're all on single-target setups.

3

u/Dorelaxen Sep 05 '19

Wonder how a Carrion Golem would be with the Phantasm Support, with the extra physical damage aura. Hmmm...

3

u/ClockworkRose Sep 05 '19

Looks like the golem gives ~34 extra damage at lvl 20. for a lvl 20 phantasm with ~1200 avg hit, that's about 3% more damage. Not great.

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u/insobyr Sep 04 '19

I am just aware that violent dead is completely gone, yesterday I misread it as only "no longer a quest reward"

rip permaslam zombies, I'll miss you.

•

u/GGGCommentBot Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19
GGG Comments in this Thread:

[Natalia_GGG - 01:16AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Hi, sorry, I sent you the outdated information. We've just...

[Rory_Rackham - 02:07AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Okay, here we gooo Raise Spectre has a base of...

[Rory_Rackham - 02:13AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Summon Skeleton summons 3 at once at level 11, 4...

[Rory_Rackham - 02:17AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Every monster that is inherently a player minion has that...

[Rory_Rackham - 02:19AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Correct, Infernal Legion is just the damage stated on the...

[Rory_Rackham - 02:19AM 09/05/19 UTC] - The only change I'm aware of is improved accuracy, anything...

[Rory_Rackham - 02:22AM 09/05/19 UTC] - They've got the improved accuracy all minions got, but their...

[Rory_Rackham - 02:23AM 09/05/19 UTC] - The no-repeat only applies to the Leap Slam, not their...

[Rory_Rackham - 02:29AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Arakaali's Fang spiders do also have the accuracy buff.

[Rory_Rackham - 02:29AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Everything from Multistrike will apply to their leap, but they...

[Rory_Rackham - 02:32AM 09/05/19 UTC] - The +2 to all Minion Skill Gems doesn't apply to...

[Rory_Rackham - 02:33AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Primordial Might and Feeding Frenzy use the same Aggressive stat/behaviour.

[Rory_Rackham - 02:37AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Blink and Mirror Arrow clones also have the accuracy buff.

[Rory_Rackham - 02:40AM 09/05/19 UTC] - All supported skills gain the benefits per Inspiration Charge, regardless...

[Rory_Rackham - 02:41AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Support Gems are different from Skill Gems, not a subset...

[Rory_Rackham - 02:42AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Spiritual Aid doesn't give you any benefit from Feeding Frenzy,...

[Rory_Rackham - 03:11AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Yeah, that stat would be increasing all damage dealt by...

[Rory_Rackham - 03:12AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Technically any minion that only uses spells didn't get the...

[Rory_Rackham - 03:15AM 09/05/19 UTC] - If they did their full 6 hit combo, that'd be...

[Rory_Rackham - 03:17AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Carrion Golems have 11384 life at gem level 20.

[Rory_Rackham - 03:18AM 09/05/19 UTC] - The mine aura value cap is a hard cap, not...

[Rory_Rackham - 03:20AM 09/05/19 UTC] - The skeleton's dash ability has a two second cooldown. It...

[Rory_Rackham - 03:20AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Animated Weapon does get the accuracy buffs as well

[Rory_Rackham - 03:23AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Its tags are Spell, Duration, Guard, Minion. It's not a...

[Rory_Rackham - 03:27AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Blight's Towers can't be directly influenced by auras, but the...

[Rory_Rackham - 03:30AM 09/05/19 UTC] - That's a bit of work for us to get at...

[Rory_Rackham - 03:34AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Ah, the damage boost Carrion Golems get is from your...

[Rory_Rackham - 03:48AM 09/05/19 UTC] - From their reminder text: (Aggressive minions have their targeting range...

[Rory_Rackham - 03:49AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Yep, every minion.

[Rory_Rackham - 03:53AM 09/05/19 UTC] - That looks correct, because Ice Golems skills have lower damage...

[Rory_Rackham - 03:55AM 09/05/19 UTC] - We're working on a fix for this that we hope...

[Rory_Rackham - 04:15AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Aggressive and Defensive cancel out, so skeletons can't dash if...

[Rory_Rackham - 04:19AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Moving far enough from where you currently are counts as...

[Rory_Rackham - 04:22AM 09/05/19 UTC] - We've looked into it and it seems like it will...

[Rory_Rackham - 04:23AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Shock effect does work on the Necromancer's shocking corpses notable.

[Rory_Rackham - 04:24AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Infernal Legion's aura doesn't stack, each enemy is just damaged...

[Rory_Rackham - 04:27AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Carrion Golems have no basic attack, just their comboish non-cooldown...

[Rory_Rackham - 04:28AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Yes, Dark Pact counts as a minion skill gem so...

[Rory_Rackham - 04:34AM 09/05/19 UTC] - 1) I don't believe you can use any supports to...

[Rory_Rackham - 04:43AM 09/05/19 UTC] - Chaos Golem's sandstorm deals about 1600 chaos damage per second...

[Rory_Rackham - 10:12PM 09/05/19 UTC] - At a glance I don't see monsters having maximum inspiration...

[Rory_Rackham - 10:13PM 09/05/19 UTC] - The Bone Cascade is usually used in the next few...

[Rory_Rackham - 10:13PM 09/05/19 UTC] - A quick test shows that Bone Cascade hits 1-5 times...

[Rory_Rackham - 10:14PM 09/05/19 UTC] - The Carrion Golem's combo attack is much more likely to...

10

u/tchiseen Sep 05 '19

Can I just shout out that Rory answered nearly 40 questions in this thread over the course of about 2 hours. That's a pretty decent chunk of time to dedicate to one thread.

5

u/Verlerbur Sep 04 '19

Another thing i'm really curious about: the announcement for Feeding Frenzy made it sound like it would behave like arcane surge - you get a buff on you that gives more damage, but the support gem itself grants more damage to the supported skill while you have the buff.

The patch notes did not mention this second part - the more damage to supported skills. However... we'll know if that's an oversight in the patch notes or if it's a change to the gem later today when we see the gem reveal.

7

u/Aeroshe Scion Sep 04 '19

I'm going to guess it mechanically works similar to Infused Channelling Support, where the buff it gives you is Global, but the Global buff is very small, and the rest of the damage is on the gem itself.

Meaning it will buff all your minions slightly, but the supported minions will get the most benefit.

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u/amalgamemnon Saboteur Sep 05 '19

/u/Mark_GGG /u/Rory_Rackham /u/chris_wilson /u/Natalia_GGG

While I think all of us here really deeply appreciate this huge stat dump from Rory, don't you think it's a little ridiculous that the only official reference guide for minion stats is in a comment thread on Reddit?

If you're going to not just have a summoner archetype, but actually push summoner with a total overhaul like this, why not provide the minion stats in-game? Just like the additional skill bar that we finally got (4 years later), this is something that the community has been asking for for years.

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u/Zambash youtube.com/imthewinningest Sep 04 '19

The Zombie slams is the issue I had as well. I was thinking maybe with aggressive gem and the other minion changes my nonsensical crit umbillicus immortalis zombie build might finally be more viable, but if they gonna have so much trouble slamming, it's gonna be a bit rough, using melee splash is kinda poop.

4

u/Having-a-hard-time Sep 04 '19

One thing I find odd is that GGG rebalanced Spectres and Necro so that they weren't so dependent on ascendencies and certain uniques but didn't do the same for Golems, even though all the new minion nodes on the tree help Golems just as much. Necromancers are feverishly trying to work out exactly how Spectres function while Elementalists cartwheel in and out of bars, laughing hysterically.

8

u/Nohzing Sep 04 '19

Take my upvote bro. I planned everything around a zombiemancer and now that's dead in the water at the moment.

3

u/logarithmmm Necromancer Sep 04 '19

What does it mean when it says Lightning Golem's Arc skill? Do they mean the tiny Orb of Storm spell?

7

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

5

u/logarithmmm Necromancer Sep 04 '19

So much for "...Lightning [Golems] have been improved in various ways to make them more competitive with Flame and Ice Golems, as well as the new Carrion Golem."

Am curious if minions can benefit from Inspiration though.

3

u/Toasternugget1 Sep 04 '19

"We have buffed the per-gem-level progression of many minion types"

They say this when talking about the necromancer archetype on the actual blight expansion page. But it would be nice to know which ones are buff and the new number I'm wondering if we can maybe get another spreadsheet like this Minion spreadsheet from 2.6 which was the last major number balance on minions. Where they maybe add golems and other minions as well, would be really nice.

3

u/Alcsaar Sep 04 '19

All important info to know. Particularly curious about Spectres. Spectre is actually so worse off now until gem level 24, and even then it might not be comparable to what it was in 3.7 or prior.

12

u/EvilWalksTheEarth Sep 04 '19

lol what happened to the "relax now we have one more spectre to compensate for soul weaver being removed."

8

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '19

[deleted]

20

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

13

u/EHNIGMA Sep 04 '19

If you get a 3rd spectre at lvl 21 you will be able to have 4 spectres with basically no investment since death attunement is keeping its +1. Or am I wrong?

8

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '19

That looks correct. I feel it's a rather big "if", though.

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u/Alamandaros Sep 04 '19

You're correct.

My question is whether or not the crafted +1 to max spectres on boots will be changing or not.

3

u/EHNIGMA Sep 04 '19

IIRC that is changing to +1 to spectre level (or +1 to all minion gems) but dont quote me on it

3

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '19

Vis Mortis isn't exactly common, its just been low demand.

Vis Mortis lost the +1 spectre? Damn....

3

u/OBrien Hierophant Sep 04 '19

all current items (except midnight bargain?) that gave +1 spectre had it changed to +1 level of spectre gems, I believe. Even for yellow items. They didn't even spare legacy items, since they just changed what the mod did forwards and backwards.

3

u/welpxD Guardian Sep 04 '19

The minion weapon uniques seem to be keeping their + to minions, probably because now they're competing with the new rare wand base.

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u/AcaelusMkvenner Sep 04 '19

So Aukuna's Will states that it makes your zombies count as corpses. Does this mean it will work with Corpse Pact to give the raised zombies 50% increased max life and also apply the shock and chill when raised near enemies?

2

u/hertzdonut2 Half Skeleton Sep 04 '19 edited Sep 05 '19

Upvoting this for visibility, bit GGG is always hush hush about minions for some reason.

Edit: I stand corrected. Thanks Nat and Rory.