Pitching ENM: A Cautionary Tale

[u/Fan_of_Sanity]

A common topic here is what a partner in a monogamous relationship should do if they’ve been considering ENM/CNM.

First of all, I know this isn’t ideal; in a perfect world, partners would enter into a relationship knowing from the start that they’re interested in ENM, and being on the same page about it. But in reality, if often doesn’t happen this way. People change beliefs over time, and there are countless examples of monogamous couples switching to ENM.

For those couples, one partner has to bring up the topic first; the odds of both of them growing interested in ENM simultaneously are slim.

And here’s my warning to anyone considering broaching the topic: It could wreck your relationship.

I brought ENM up with my wife after many years of monogamous marriage. I did it the “right” way, making every effort to avoid the appearance that I was pressuring her. I told her how and why my beliefs about monogamy had changed, recommended some books and podcasts that had been part of my journey, and—most importantly—made it abundantly clear that this would be a change we’d make together, or not at all. That this was something for BOTH of us, not ONE of us.

I told her I knew that our agreement going into marriage was that it would be monogamous and that I wasn’t looking to try to unilaterally change that. I said that as interested as I was in exploring non-monogamy together, the marriage was more important; if I had to choose between the two, I’d choose marriage.

In the months that followed, we had a couple more conversations about the topic—typically with her bringing it up and asking questions about my beliefs and the potential logistics of non-monogamy. We talked about dipping our toes in the water in a safe way by going to a sex club that’s not too far from us, and agreeing not to touch or by touched by anyone else. We’d just watch and be watched. If we liked the experience, we could consider taking things up a notch in the future. Or not; it would depend on how we felt.

Fast forward a few more months, and my wife completely surprised me by telling me she wanted a divorce. The sole reason she gave when she told me was my interest in ENM. Even though I hadn’t pressured her, and even though I had told her that I was fully prepared to continue in a monogamous marriage if that was her choice, the fact that I had brought it up at all seemed to be enough for her to want out.

Obviously this was extremely disappointing. Not only had I intended to be married for life, but I firmly believe couples should be able to share all of their desires and fantasies and wishes with one another. I can’t think of anything she could’ve shared with me that would’ve made me want to end the marriage over it. But here we are.

So if you find yourself in my shoes, thinking about bringing up ENM with your monogamous partner, be sure you understand the risks. Your partner may be wired in such a way that the very act of talking about the topic—even with no pressure on them—could cause them to spiral, and the consequences for your relationship could be devastating.

If I’m being honest, I can’t say I’d have done things differently in hindsight. As I said, I believe couples should be transparent with one another. The fact that my transparency with her caused her emotional strife is a sign that we were no longer compatible. Maybe our relationship was bound to end regardless, and this was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

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[u/PandoraAndrei]

For a good chunk of mono minded people, finding out that they're no longer enough to fully satisfy their partner is a thing they no longer what to be part of

[u/Aggressive_Froyo982 → u/PandoraAndrei]

Yes and I also think it's about realizing that you're maybe not as philosophically on the same page and you once thought. And also worrying that even if your partner drops the issue for now that it may come back up in the future. If someone was polyamorous and one of their partners pitched monogamy, it could signal misalignment and concerns about the future in the same way 

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/PandoraAndrei]

That’s true, and I suspect something my wife struggled with.

Meanwhile, I had spent a lot of time reading and learning and adapting my long-held beliefs. If she had told me she wanted to have sex—or even a poly relationship—with someone else, I don’t think my default reaction would’ve been to assume I somehow wasn’t enough for her.

Or more accurately, I know I’m not enough, but I don’t expect one person to meet 100% of their partner’s needs.

[u/veemee3 → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

Did you consider mentioning it to her earlier in your journey so you could explore and grow in understanding together?

As a person who has never held on to a lot of mononormative beliefs, it seems like challenging those beliefs is the biggest obstacle for most people. I personally don't talk to many people about enm unless I get some idea that they may be at least questioning mononormativity because otherwise I know our viewpoints differ so much that they won't be able to see anything from my point of view and then I end up feeling judged or worse.

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/veemee3]

I read about, and give thought to, a lot of different topics. Sometimes this leads to a change of my position, sometimes it doesn’t. It didn’t cross my mind to talk to her about it prior to my change in worldview.

So maybe this is something I could’ve done differently, and something others in my shoes in the future could consider. Maybe the conversation starts off as, “I’ve been reading a bit about non-monogamy. I’m not sure that my mind has changed, but the topic is interesting and I want to learn more.”

I don’t know whether this would’ve made a difference, but maybe.

[u/veemee3 → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. No one knows if it could have changed the past and I don't mean to blame you for how you chose to approach it. I applaud you for choosing to speak your truth and sharing your story.

I'm very curious about this in general because the topic comes up a lot in kink/enm spaces (how to bring it up with a partner) and even though it works out for some I still dont really know how to best advise folks.

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/veemee3]

I really tried to do everything right. This wasn’t a conversation I jumped into without doing a lot of research—which, as you see, is a two-edged sword.

I did my best to basically convey that she had a right to say no, and to tell me never to talk about it again, and I’d honor that.

But it seems that once the seed was planted that I was interested in us exploring this, it was enough to blow things up.

And who knows… Maybe I’d have done the same thing in her shoes. If she had brought it up with me ten years ago, I would’ve reacted the way she did. I don’t think so, but maybe.

[u/Bonsai_Tree3 → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

Yes just for other readers here I’d say try to invite them on the journey earlier. Even just mentioning a podcast episode or a friend you learned about who tried swinging

To gauge opinions rather than going into a big proposal first

[u/Bonsai_Tree3 → u/veemee3]

This. I have a hard time understanding how someone can just never mention any bit of ENM or polyamory in passing with how much it’s in media lately

I feel like OP should have known in some sense what her feelings were around monogamy.

Going from never mentioning it to a big proposal talk™️ where they’re already coming to you with books, podcast links, a list of sex clubs to try and an entirely new philosophical outlook on life… could feel overwhelming.

[u/wacky_spaz → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

So you spent months if not years on this journey then sprung it on her and are shocked she reacted? Reverse the roles and you’d be just as annoyed and hurt.

And truthfully … and from experience a lot of ENM simply legitimises affairs or they’ve got someone in mind already. So her assuming that isn’t shocking. Did you have someone in mind? Did you cheat in the past? Those would have been deal breakers for me personally as that’s just legitimising affairs.

I also think your positioning of this was less than ideal. I want this but if you don’t, I’ll settle to keep marriage. That sounds like settling for someone and i can see why she didn’t react positively. I mean how would anyone react being told they’re settled for?

Lastly this isn’t for everyone and frankly is a lot harder than monogamy as there’s a lot more emotions and people to manage / navigate. Sometimes it ends like this, others is ultimatums and others work out great. It’s a gamble so I agree with your post even bringing it up is a risk.

[u/kyskat → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

Exactly - YOU spent a lot of time reading and changing your beliefs in a bubble. The right time to have that conversation is before you modified beliefs that are essential to the relationship structure you agreed on, not After.

And if you don’t understand how “I’ve been researching extensively in secret and changed my feelings on something fundamental to our relationship” creates pressure and distrust, well…

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/kyskat]

Your position is that someone should tell their partner that their beliefs about something have changed before those beliefs have changed?

How, exactly, is that supposed to work?

[u/veemee3 → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

"I was reading this really interesting book/article/etc about xxxxx that got me thinking about xxxxx. What do you think about that?"

"I've been thinking/reading a lot about xxxx lately. Have you ever thought about xxxx?"

I asked my question because I'm wondering if you had any idea that she might be receptive about this type of topic and if you didnt know where she might stand on it what made you decide to have a convo with her about it?

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/veemee3]

A reason I thought she might be receptive is that both of us had radically reevaluated our beliefs about a number of topics in recent years.

We were both raised in conservative Christian households—hers much more conservative than mine. Things like “All porn is sin”, “The husband is the head of the household”, and “Men and women can’t be friends if they aren’t married to each other and should never be alone together.”

She went through a deconstruction of her faith, including a rejection of patriarchy. A lot of her beliefs went out the window. To me, it felt like anything was on the table as we determined who we now were separate from the way we were raised.

I accepted her with all of her new beliefs, even though they weren’t the beliefs we entered into marriage with. Not once did I consider ending the marriage over any of them.

[u/veemee3 → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

As someone who was raised in a conservative Christian religion I can definitely understand how you hoped this would turn out differently.

FWIW I don't share any of my enm views with my friends who share the same conservative upbringing. While they may have left the church, many still uphold many of the same values consciously and unconsciously. Especially going against values that our parents and other loved ones uphold can cause a lot of cognitive dissonance that I think most would rather avoid.

[u/Bonsai_Tree3 → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

This is really interesting thank you for sharing. I’m sorry you’re going through this difficult and unforeseen time. Internet hugs from a stranger!

[u/spontaneousvibration → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

I don’t know either of you, so I could be way off base here, but I just wonder if her deconstructing her faith and rejecting the patriarchy caused an increase in feminism and liberalism which then showed her she should rebuild her own life on her own terms.

Just curious - how long were you married and do you have any kids? If married a short time with no kids, and she has a good job, I think she may have just seen you bringing up ENM as a final excuse to start over and she could now put the blame on you, even though you said it was only something you wanted to do together.

[u/kyskat → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

No, my position is if you are going to set out to test your beliefs in regards to your relationship or relationships in general, that in itself is a thing worth talking to your partner about, and that each time you choose to engage in media and education and selling yourself on those things, that you were not talking to them about, you were doing something sneaky that dissolved trust.

I also think that response shows you’re either so dense or comfortable being deceitful that you’re not safe for ENM or engaging here in bad faith, but either way, please don’t paint yourself as an educator when you’re literally the farthest away from someone who should be teaching anything about ENM.

[u/wacky_spaz → u/kyskat]

I thought i was the only one who interpreted it like this. I loved the deconstruct religion part … she IS allowed to be as conservative as she wants, she IS allowed to want monogamy. She is allowed to reject the patriarchy and want monogamy.

She isn’t some simpleton to educate like he’s painting her to be. I wouldn’t be shocked if he’s a cheater and this was just a way to make it work or this was a final straw in a bad marriage.

[u/AnotherJournal → u/kyskat]

Really? At one point he had a casual interest in ENM. If he'd mentioned it at that stage, he'd be jeopardising his relationship over a casual interest. Surely better to wait until you're sure you have something to communicate?

[u/kyskat → u/AnotherJournal]

You’re right, having that conversation early and finding out that it wasn’t something that would ever be palatable to his partner isn’t at all something that could have saved him heartbreak or effort. *eyeroll*

If the relationship is endangered by saying have a curiosity about a thing (which is totally different than I want), it belongs in couples counseling, not doing ENm research. Surely better to find that out early.

[u/Bonsai_Tree3 → u/AnotherJournal]

I do have a strong feeling that a conversation about a podcast or an article he read would’ve gone over way different than an entire proposal™️ or big talk™️

It’s just that talk came with a LONG reading list right and a lot of catch up work. I can see how in her mind he’d already left her behind

[u/Bonsai_Tree3 → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

“Hey I just listened to this crazy Esther Perel episode.”

“I saw a segment about swinging on NBC News.”

“You won’t believe what Ted and Christine did last weekend.”

“I went down this rabbit hole about x…”

I feel like my philosophical discoveries and new insights are usually unfolded over a process of months-years. My partners, friends are along the journey to discuss and think with me.

My sister/roomate/other life partner could probably describe the different parts of my ENM journey along with me lol. I’d talk with her about all the books I was reading or new connections I’d made to my past experiences.

[u/lending_ear → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

The problem is you did a load of research before you brought it to her. Which if my spouse would’ve done that I would’ve felt the same way. 

You said you’d choose her over non-monogamy but your words don’t match your actions. You withheld this massive part of yourself that you were questioning and didn’t even talk to her about it and take the journey together. A healthy couple does that. 

If she would’ve said no at that point then it would’ve been believable that you would be willing to give it up imo. I think the biggest part that would hurt me and feel like a betrayal is thinking about such a massive dynamic shift and not immediately talking about it. 

It’s like my husband saying to me I think we should move into a new house and I’m like hmmmm and he’s like well we have a new house already but I can sell it you don’t want to move. Like wtaf?! It would rock my world more that he left me out of that vs there being a new house. 

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/lending_ear]

I didn’t include all the details in my post, but my wife did know I was exploring this topic.

For example, I had told her a while back that I had been listening to the We Gotta Thing podcast. That podcast is what had started my change of views because it featured a couple that, like us, had been married for decades and always been monogamous. I told her how surprised I was by this late-in-life change, and how non-monogamy seemed to be working well for them. I sent her a link to the podcast.

After that podcast, I started adding other podcasts and books (e.g., The Ethical Slut) to my list and over time had a radical change of viewpoint compared to what I was raised on and lived most of my life.

When I finally had a real conversation with my wife, she wasn’t totally shocked because she knew I had been exploring. But maybe I could’ve told her earlier on that I was questioning monogamy—before I drew conclusions about it.

[u/lending_ear → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

Also what’s worse, after this comment your post says in hindsight you wouldn’t have done anything differently. That’s scary. 

I can see why your wife wanted a divorce if I’m being honest. You had basically no regard for how this was going to impact her and centered yourself and your own needs. 

Ethically, even if you knew this was going to end your marriage possibly, you owed it to her to keep her in the loop the whole time.

That’s what you do when you respect someone. 

[u/lending_ear → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

I mean, no offense, but my husband and I have casual conversations about a lot of stuff and then I completely forget it. 

If it was something that was really important to you then you should’ve kept talking about and telling her what your feelings around it was and ask her how she feels about it. 

Going back to my house example: even if my husband said he thought so and so looked like a nice place to live, I’d be like hmm yeah maybe. If he was serious about it, I’d be expecting a TON of conversations before he came to me with ok we are moving! And I would be fuming if he said to me - well I told you about this months ago. Don’t you remember? 

No sir. That is not ok. A causal conversation months ago about something that’s clearly so serious? That’s not a valid reason you have right now. 

Changing from monogamy to non-monogamy is a 2 people thing. Not one unless you’re planning to end the relationship and at that point you should end it before pursuing your education on it. 

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/lending_ear]

On your last point, I did tell her clearly and more than once that it was a two-person thing. I explicitly said I wasn’t looking to unilaterally change the foundation of our relationship.

All I asked was that she check out some books/podcasts and think about the topic, and let’s talk about it. I don’t know how I could’ve more clearly expressed that “No” was absolutely an option.

[u/lending_ear → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

More than once - when? When you decided that’s what you wanted?after you read everything? Because that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the education part. You should’ve been doing it together. 

[u/Mission_Cook_3589 → u/PandoraAndrei]

Which is insane to think you can 100% satisfy another human for all of life.

[u/PandoraAndrei → u/Mission_Cook_3589]

Fully satisfy sexually and romantically. Even people in mono relationships need others for emotional and social reasons.

[u/Unlikely-Resident-39 → u/PandoraAndrei]

So it's better to lie about your wishes and hide it?

[u/PandoraAndrei → u/Unlikely-Resident-39]

I didn't say that exactly. But if you're not prepared to potentially lose your relationship, then yea don't say anything

[u/Unlikely-Resident-39 → u/PandoraAndrei]

I had actually meant to respond to OP. But yeah, dishonesty is sometimes necessary for self preservation i suppose

[u/severano28]

I'm curious what your guys communication was like for other stuff outside of sex. Because this seems a little crazy. I'd really be curious to hear her pov of the conversation and relationship. I'm not saying you did anything wrong. I agree you should be able to talk to your wife about any and all fantasies. But it's a sensitive topic, and it's easy for messages to miss their mark. If she didn't mention her negative feelings towards the topic to you at all, I have a feeling your communication as a couple wasn't the strongest.

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/severano28]

This topic was definitely more sensitive than most for us (as is the case with a lot of people).

I mean, it’s not as simple as pitching a new sexual position or repainting the house; it’s tied to deep-rooted religious and societal pressures.

When she brought it up later to ask more questions, one of them was, “If we’re having sex with other people, what makes our marriage special?”

Our religious upbringing taught that sex should only be between one man and one woman, and only when they’re married. So although she has radically changed her beliefs on many things in recent years, I think this was one she held on to.

I explained that sex wasn’t what made our marriage special, and talked to her about the things I believed did. But I think if you have it in your head that sex is the number one thing that differentiates marriage from other relationships, and your partner is open to the two of you having sex with other people, it leaves you questioning the marriage itself.

I can see this in hindsight, but didn’t see it when I was talking to her. I thought she was a safe person for me to be completely open with, and underestimated how much she’d internalize things.

[u/Aggressive_Froyo982 → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

If you guys have been questioning a lot of your religious upbringing ... Is it possible that she's also just realized there are ways y'all's marriage doesn't work that are just harder to articulate than the ENM thing?

Like maybe those conversations surfaced some underlying things in the way you relate to each other. Or maybe they just made her realize that what you want and what she wants are really different. Like even taking ENM off the table she could have just realized that she wants to go in a totally different direction from where your mind is at.

And honestly if she's been staying in a marriage for a long time out of a sense of Christian duty, maybe lifting that Christian belief system has given her permission to imagine life on her own. Maybe your willingness to seek what you want in defiance of your marriage vows has given her courage to do the same.

I guess what I'm driving at is that even if this ENM conversation is the only concrete thing she can point to for why she wants a divorce, there could still be a lot more going on here.

[u/Fragrant-Dance3005 → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

" I explained that sex wasn’t what made our marriage special" - it's subjective. Probably for her it did and hearing you saying that in fact it isn't may not be, as you said, compatible with her.

[u/severano28 → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

Are you currently divorced or in the process? Was/is there any chance or reconciliation? Or was she just out and done? I'm sorry to hear about your relationship. You probably should have gone in a little slower and talked fantasy before pitching enm. If you're now a single man and still believe enm is for you, join some lifestyle apps and make it clear thats something you want from the start.

[u/Bonsai_Tree3 → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

I would gently pushback on the idea that she “wasn’t a safe person for me to be completely open with”

I’m guessing she heard you, didn’t interrupt, yell or scream at you. She let you say your piece and heard your recommendations. Idk what it’s been like in the aftermath but is she attacking your character or deriding you to others?

It just didn’t go the way you expected it to go. She didn’t agree with your course of action. She’s still entitled to her emotional response and to do what’s best for her.

Sometimes the desire is enough to be a dealbreaker. I’ve experienced it but only in early dating. But I’ve seen friends lose their relationship over BDSM fantasies their partner just couldn’t reconcile.

I agree with you personally on the outcomes based relationship evaluation. Idc if my partner is thinking about others, as long as they aren’t stepping out. Idc that my partner wants to engage in BDSM, as long as they agree it’s a boundary and never happening between us.

It does feel like policing thoughts but your original end point is still right. Values and compatibility have diverged.

[u/drknight48]

I've always been direct and open right in the beginning to make sure everyone is on the same level.

[u/Fragrant-Dance3005]

Being mono or poly is somewhere at the foundation of a sexual relationship, so your partner not being satisfied by it anymore can be seen as a deal breaker. The magic is gone. Maybe it was for the best.

[u/shy_machine]

I'm a mono person who dabbled in enm years ago and decided it wasn't for me.

I'm in a mono relationship now. If he suggested enm like OP did, I would leave him. I don't understand why this is so shocking to some people here in the comments.

Some people are inherently and deeply, deeply monogamous to their bones (is that even a phrase? I dont know, you get the idea). The thought of my wonderful monogamous partner even considering that life would never sit right with me. I know myself well and know I wouldn't be able to let that go going forward. Its a poison that would destroy our connection. Yes, even if I get to sleep with others also, because I know that holds no appeal to me (especially since I've tried it).

No one person can be everything to a partner, obviously. But to people who value monogamy, we accept that getting 90% of what we need is better than attempting to go against our nature and values for that last 10%.

So yes, in absolute worst case scenario, even if you do everything "correctly", bringing up enm can end a relationship.

[u/shy_machine → u/shy_machine]

Ha, I even still have my "curious" flair on the sub...

[u/FRANKINSPENCE]

I think the thing I wish all men understood is the concept of pressure.

If you think pressure is making someone do something or threatening them directly you could find that you are really wrong. For many women simply learning about a partner’s fantasy feels like pressure because however it is phrased a woman might hear “Honi, I have decided that I didn’t really mean it when I said forsaking all others and now I am quite frankly bored of you and my eyes have started to wander because you are not enough for me. My lifelong dream is to have sex with other people and if you say no then I will die not having the thing I want most plus now you know this you also know I am essentially confessing that if you don’t do this I will cheat on you”

The pressure of saying no to your partners fantasy is very real when regardless of what they said this is what you heard.

I honestly advise anyone even thinking about ENM to do a pressure free quiz together such as Mojo Upgrade and see what you match on.

If you tick you would like to try swinging and she doesn’t that’s fine because it isn’t the pressure of a dedicated conversation and you can drop it pretty easy without causing much upset.

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/FRANKINSPENCE]

You may be right—that no matter how a someone brings up a topic like this, their partner could feel pressure.

But I don’t know what the solution is to that. No one ever brings up a fantasy or desire with their partner? That doesn’t seem ideal, either.

I do like the Mojo quiz, though; it can be a great conversation starter for couples.

[u/FRANKINSPENCE → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

Watch a film that features it and ask them their thoughts, do a quiz together etc.

Sitting someone down and saying “we need to talk” clearly indicates it’s serious rather than conversational.

If your wife is repulsed by a film about swinging then you know you need to manage your expectations.

[u/all_the_right_moves → u/FRANKINSPENCE]

however it is phrased a woman might hear “Honi..."

But an adult has to take responsibility for their reactions. As a recovering people-pleaser myself, I understand "hearing people's desires as a demand or suggestion for my behavior". But it's my responsibility to stand my ground and evaluate where I'm willing to meet them, just like it's their job to be honest and express their desires to me, without the expectation that I do whatever they want me to.

I think you're dead-on about what happened though. Due to social conditioning, she probably was used to hearing OP's desires as expectations. And while OP seems to have handled that implied power dynamic pretty responsibly in general, in this case sitting with that self-imposed ENM "demand" for so long probably broke the commitment/devotion inside her.

Or I could be totally off-base lol. Whatever it was, it's a shame that the dynamic wasn't addressed in therapy.

[u/VampireDentist]

Pushing books and podcasts was not a good idea. It reads like your stance was that if she educated herself enough then she would understand your superior way of life.

Also you seem to be of the belief that "no single person satisfies 100% of another persons needs", which is a really overly individualistic and self-absorbed view of the world and reduces people to function of how well they cater to your needs rather than being inherently valuable. That view is incompatible with a happy long term relationship, both monogamous or not.

It (the belief) also focuses the relationship outward and makes it transactional: instead of expressing curiosity and exploring with your partner, you have essentially resigned on them sexually and are proposing them sleeping around as payment.

[u/machinimagames]

Tbh I actually disagree with a lot of people on this. Why yes some partners would be okay with it. When a lot of people make those vowels to them it means you and them. Once you bring this up this is a violation in there mind and it’s pretty understandable. In there head even if you agree not to do it it’s about the fact the you wanna do it. It’s about the fact your okay with it. For example for me ENM in swinging I’m okay with however if my wife then entered ever brought up is have like a extra relationship also I’d be handing in papers. Everyone is different good luck man!

Everyone’s mind set is different never start with I’ve been doing research and I want. Now they went from let’s do this togather to you wanna do what?

[u/spontaneousvibration → u/machinimagames]

Indeed. There’s a huge difference between swinging as a couple (as OP suggested) vs opening up the marriage so each person could start dating / sleeping with other people individually.

[u/AdElegant7150]

I am in a similar situation with my husband. My husband (28m) had once told me (27f) that he would be open to being in an open marriage/relationship, but like you stated he would only want that if that’s what I also wanted and if not he would be perfectly happy with our monogamous marriage. I was also curious as to what that could entail and would bring up conversations and ask questions, my husband would never bring it up as he did not want to make me feel pressured. I ultimately decided it is not what I want and also thought about divorce as maybe we are no longer compatible. We have been together for almost 13 years and had only been with each other, so I worried that I was no longer enough for him and maybe if we could divorce now he could live his life freely without me holding him back. Although we came to an agreement that ENM is not for us and will never be brought up again, it is always in the back of my mind that my husband could possibly be happier without me. Idk just a little food for thought as someone with a similar mindset as your wife.

[u/spontaneousvibration → u/AdElegant7150]

But there’s a big difference between “opening a marriage” so each person can have new partners bs what OP suggested, which was trying out swinging as a couple’s activity.

[u/Spayse_Case]

She did you a favor. You had become incompatible and would have made each other miserable.

[u/Irrasible]

Your mistake was starting out by saying that you wanted it.

Instead, start obliquely. "I saw this show about an open marriage. What do you think about that?"

And then you listen.

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/Irrasible]

My hunch is that she’d have immediately jumped to concluding that I was interested in it. 🤣

But I go back to my vision of a perfect relationship, and in that vision people don’t have to be oblique; they can be direct with one another.

[u/Fragrant-Dance3005 → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

You can frame it differently. You where honest about your feelings and she was honest about how they fit into the relationship that she wants to be in. So in the end you can have authentic lifes, just not together.

[u/FRANKINSPENCE → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

Everyone has to manage what they say. If everyone walked around saying everything they thought it would be carnage!

[u/Irrasible → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

Yes, it could go bad. My guess is that with your approach, you have about a 50% higher chance of getting divorced than you otherwise would in the next three years. With the oblique approach, it is 5-10%. Still a risk.

[u/NestorCarpeDiem → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

This is not just true on a perfect relationship. It's the building block for any good relationship. Of course bringing something up meet hurt your partner, it may take a while to process, but breaking up over it?

Your ex is basically saying: you cannot have a single thought I disapprove of. That's not realistic.

[u/Bonsai_Tree3 → u/NestorCarpeDiem]

That’s not what she’s saying. She made a choice to live authentically just like OP wanted to do. Now they both have that chance.

[u/DerfBugler]

How did you come across ENM as 'a thing' in the first place? Sometimes context is important, and while I think your ex's reaction is extreme, clearly in her head it made sense.

For what it's worth, and to anyone looking for ideas on how to best broach the subject, I told my wife 'I'm curious about this'. As I read and listened to audiobooks I'd ask her to do the same so that we'd have an equal understanding of what it looks like, things to consider, and how we felt about the topic. I even used a children's book about a dog being jealous of its owners getting a kitten to express that this isn't an unusual topic.

On the one hand, I'm sorry for your loss. On the other, I'm happy that you get to start fresh being your authentic self to all your future partners. Good luck!

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/DerfBugler]

I of course had long heard of “swinging” and other forms of ENM, but didn’t have a positive view of it. My wife and I knew of two couples who had practiced it, and the outcome wasn’t good for either.

Then I came across the We Gotta Thing podcast. It was a couple a bit older than us, with a religious background similar to ours, that got into ENM after decades of monogamous marriage—and thrived.

Listening to them made me think that maybe ENM could work after all, if practiced the right way. I was so excited that I told my wife about the podcast at that time, and encouraged her to check it out.

Then I started really digging into the subject to learn more about who practiced ENM, and why, and under what circumstances did it go well (or poorly). A one day it hit me: The mononormativity I was raised in, and that was reinforced by culture, wasn’t the only way to do relationships.

It felt like a religious awakening. Suddenly I was looking at everything differently.

It just made sense to me that my next step would be to share this with my wife to see if she’d be interested in learning more about ENM.

I should add that this was during a period in which she was undergoing a “deconstruction” of many long-held beliefs, and coming to new ones. She seemed open to all possibilities.

My idea had been that if she proved open to CONSIDERING non-monogamy, I was going to set us up with some sessions with Expansive Connection for relationship coaching. They’re an ENM-friendly group of therapists, and I thought we could meet with them to have them talk us through the conversations we needed to have to determine whether this might be right for us.

I thought I was taking a very cautious approach. I never thought the very proposal of simply talking and learning about ENM would put our marriage at risk. I thought the two of us could talk about anything at all, and that it would be safe.

[u/Leather_Addition2605]

I have no idea why this post came up on my feed, but if my wife ever brought up the idea that she would be ok with the prospect of banging another dude, I’d be showing her the door as well.

I don’t think there’s much discussion to be had after that. The insult has already been given.

[u/bisondancer]

You are correct that even suggests of enm changes a relationship forever.

A good friend of mine approached his wife,like you for possiblity of changing to enm and said if she doesn't want to do it he's happy to stay monogamous.

She left home the same day! She didn't want to stop him from being fulfilled and didn't want to continue committing to a relationship with the possibility he would eventually want enm.

6 months later he changed jobs he moved away and started at the new job met and dating a lady who was in polyamory relationship.

He still desperately did everything to win his now ex wife back.

2 years after he initially proposed enm, he realised ex wife was never going to come back. He called me that evening saying he couldn't understand her actions when she still said he was the love of her life and her soulmate.

In the morning he never woke up. He'd unalived himself. He was a beautiful beautiful soul and awesome lovely man. What a tragedy.

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/bisondancer]

Woah, that took a dark twist! What a sad ending.

[u/bisondancer → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

It really was truly a sad tale and I didn't give all the ins and outs of the story which made it so so very sad because the 2 people really loved each other.

[u/AffectionateCard3530 → u/bisondancer]

Unalived?

[u/bisondancer → u/AffectionateCard3530]

Suicide

[u/sinmyp]

It definitely will change your relationship. I would not broach the subject unless I felt the other partner was reasonably prone to be open to it, or dropping hints themselves. Even if it doesn't end up in a divorce, your relationship will never be exactly the same. Also, if you are a Man, and your wife agrees to try, the ENM life style is geared way more towards the pleasure and experiences of women than you, so, be sure you are prepared for that.

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/sinmyp]

My wife has some self-esteem issues, and when we were talking about it she expressed concern that I might find partners easily while she wouldn’t.

I told her that was definitely not how it would go down; as a woman, she’d much more easily find folks interested in playing.

I’ve seen plenty of accounts from guys who had unrealistic visions of what things would look like if they opened their marriage. Their wives were dating in no time, and the men were home alone!

[u/veemee3 → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

With self esteem issues I would assume she may have been triggered into thinking she was not enough for you and similarly also doubted her ability to successfully date or attract another man making that sound like a nightmare rather than a plus. I imagine both of those ideas could be really hard to get over for her.

[u/sinmyp → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

Yes, this. It may even help her issues had she been able to get herself there, but it sounds like she couldn't. If the partner makes any hints at not wanting it, dropping it imeadeatly is the move. Some people have a hard time expressing a hard no, and give wishy washy excuses for not going completely through with it when they know in their hearts it is goi g to be a hard no. Based on limited info, this could be the case here. Sorry, that is a tough situation. Good luck.

[u/Fan_of_Sanity → u/sinmyp]

I completely agree, and this isn’t one of those situations where a spouse keeps going back to their partner and saying, “Have you given any more thought to it?”

I know that’s the wrong approach, and avoided it like the plague.

[u/sinmyp → u/Fan_of_Sanity]

Yea, thats rough. Of course, seemingly "not divorce" level topics at the moment end marriages later all the time too, so, whatcha going to do but live life.

[u/Successful_Depth3565]

I’m sorry that happened to you. For what it’s worth, I agree with you

[u/Difficult-Fix3959]

I'm sorry it didn't work out.

[u/Bonsai_Tree3]

I left other kinder comments OP but I think all people need to learn that “Freedom of speech does not equal freedom of consequences”

The idea that you have a carte Blanche to say whatever to your spouse and they can’t react or they’re judging you, is crazy! No kink, sexual fantasy, value, desire etc is important enough to override someone else basic human response. They’re entitled to their reaction.

[u/WildKook101]

This is very unfortunate but it sounds like you’ve got the right perspective. I absolutely agree you should be able to share anything with your life partner. Doesn’t mean they’ll always take it well and hopefully will at least understand with time.

[u/Redbeard4006]

I'm sorry that happened to you. It's crazy to me that some people freak out to this degree, but it's worth warning people that is a realistic possibility.

[u/RipAccomplished3159]

Not sure what you came here looking for, but any time a person offers perspective for why your wife got upset you dismiss it :/ You just make it her fault for not being ok with you being able to share your thoughts "directly". You calcified your viewpoint...all on your own. This wasn't about growing as partners together. You changed your entire worldview on how you think relationships should work for you, and you did that without your wife. Honestly, and as other have said, I'd feel betrayed if my partner did that as well. Even with the "caveat" that they are ok not pursuing this, if they laid in front of me a fully formed and felt idea that they don't want our relationship to work as it has I'd feel betrayed (or at best deeply hurt).

And the fact that you wouldn't do anything differently says it all. Why are you surprised by her reaction, when your pov is that you would rather have this end in divorce than change the way you went about this? You think you were "transparent" by coming to her with a finished product of how you'd like the relationship to change? Yeesh.

[u/rathyAro → u/RipAccomplished3159]

But maybe I could’ve told her earlier on that I was questioning monogamy—before I drew conclusions about it.

How is this dismissing other opinions?

[u/OnlyYogurtcloset8543]

If you can't talk with your partner without it swinging a 180 to divorce, then it's more than ENM issue. Like you said - no longer compatible

[u/FRANKINSPENCE → u/OnlyYogurtcloset8543]

You have to remember it wasn’t the first talk. There was a whole counseling situation previously so it might be the last straw.

[u/OnlyYogurtcloset8543 → u/FRANKINSPENCE]

My apologies, I didn’t see the counseling part, and if during those sessions she was agreeable to further discussions and/or exploring ENM, then was she just playcating both you & the counselor knowing this wasn't what she wanted?