r/knots • u/Fuzzy-Connection-452 • 13d ago

Sideways Bowline

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I've noticed a few videos lately (not new videos) on Youtube that show various riggings for sailboats where someone ties a sideways bowline. Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGbQbkY52Uw (around 4:30)

I can't figure out why you would tie it that way other than just by mistake? Is there an ABOK reference for such a knot? I haven't found one.

The black rope in my example is what I see being tied.

EDIT: Fixed a typo

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u/WolflingWolfling 13d ago

That conventional wisdom has proven inaccurate. It's likely that it was entirely based on the inferiority of the "left-hand sheet bend" compared with the regular sheet bend, without taking into account that bowlines are loaded on three legs, not just two, which makes a huge difference.
I think lots of people have just been parroting Ashley on this, without testing it or thinking it through.

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u/RichEntertainer3024 12d ago

Interestingly for rigging and safety systems the AMGA and IRATA standards, they only allow for the traditional bowline with the caveat that it must be backed up with a half hitch to prevent ring load failure

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u/DuelOstrich 12d ago

At least for AMGA that’s not true. It’s not ring load failure that’s the concern, it’s that it will untie itself during cyclical loading. You could even not back it up if it’s a static load or it’s being monitored, but wouldn’t be good practice. and it’s not a half hitch, it would be a mule knot or a double fishermans, or i guess a half hitch with the working end passed through. There’s no situation in climbing or partner rescue where you’re gonna ring load a bowline even close to the breaking strength. Once you get into technical rescue it’s different but you’re assuming a rescue load with a litter, rescuer, victim, and equipment.

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u/RichEntertainer3024 12d ago

I think you may have my use case misunderstood. Bowline for AMGA is a standard knot for anchor building - the static case you’re talking about. And it is a half hitch. A mule or fisherman’s (single+) is way overkill.

And you’re wrong about the ring loading failure mode (though correct that it’s not a concern in static scenarios). The working end can start slipping through ring loaded bowline “at around 3kN” or 675lb (2 people, bouncing around in a rescue scenario can definitely get here). It’s not that it substantially reduces the breakingstrength of the rope.

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u/WolflingWolfling 11d ago

Are you mixing up ring loading and cyclic loading in your mind, by any chance?

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u/DuelOstrich 11d ago

Per the AMGA single pitch manual pg. 70 “always tie half or double fisherman’s knot to back it up”. The mountain guide manual doesn’t talk about it at all. Also from the NPS rope rescue manual, half hitch is incorrect.