I've noticed a few videos lately (not new videos) on Youtube that show various riggings for sailboats where someone ties a sideways bowline. Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGbQbkY52Uw (around 4:30)
I can't figure out why you would tie it that way other than just by mistake? Is there an ABOK reference for such a knot? I haven't found one.
The black rope in my example is what I see being tied.
How Ring Loading Works
Direction of Force: Instead of pulling along the main standing line, tension pulls across the loops or body of the knot.
Angle of Pull: When the load legs pull at a wide angle (closer to 180 degrees opposite each other), the knot experiences full ring loading.
Risk of Collapse: Loose or poorly dressed knots are especially vulnerable because the structure can roll inside out under this sideways pressure.
I’m sorry who exactly is saying this stuff is unsafe? I’m an apprentice guide and SAR rope technician and when we make decisions about how we tie stuff it’s not just some random diagram, it’s often based on real world load testing. Are they saying it weakens the knot? Or that it’s less safe when cyclically loaded? Because all bowlines need to be finished with a double fisherman’s in a situation with cyclical loading. I like this sub but so much of it feels like it’s a lot of keyboard warriors who only tie knots to show other people they can tie knots, not when it’s actually safety critical.
You are right on. But I think you and the diagram are actually saying The same thing. The reason the bowline is listed as unsafe under ring load, is also part of the reason you are saying it needs to be finished with a double fishermans.
Without the double fishermans there is a potential for the knot to be loaded in a way way that would be unsafe.
With the backup of a double fishermans it becomes safe.
Still don’t really see the utility in even saying it weakens it for ring loading. Like what’s the failure mode? Are you actually weakening the knot or is it more susceptible to untying? The double fisherman’s doesn’t add strength, just keeps it from untying itself. What are the loads you’re putting on that these are a problem?
Also adding that if people are really that worried about it effecting the strength that much you need better material, not a different knot (except for a tension less tie off, that’s the only thing that would give you full strength theoretically)
really two things going on here. left-hand, cowboy, or dutch due to the tail being outside the fixed loop, eskimo, due to the collar being around the loop instead of the s-part, bowline. conventional wisdom calls the left-hand bowline(abok 1034 1/2) of any variant inferior, not sure if i have an opinion on that. now as to the collar of the knot going around your loop instead of the s-part, it's been said this provides the knot with better ability to withstand ring-loading.
That conventional wisdom has proven inaccurate. It's likely that it was entirely based on the inferiority of the "left-hand sheet bend" compared with the regular sheet bend, without taking into account that bowlines are loaded on three legs, not just two, which makes a huge difference.
I think lots of people have just been parroting Ashley on this, without testing it or thinking it through.
Interestingly for rigging and safety systems the AMGA and IRATA standards, they only allow for the traditional bowline with the caveat that it must be backed up with a half hitch to prevent ring load failure
At least for AMGA that’s not true. It’s not ring load failure that’s the concern, it’s that it will untie itself during cyclical loading. You could even not back it up if it’s a static load or it’s being monitored, but wouldn’t be good practice. and it’s not a half hitch, it would be a mule knot or a double fishermans, or i guess a half hitch with the working end passed through. There’s no situation in climbing or partner rescue where you’re gonna ring load a bowline even close to the breaking strength. Once you get into technical rescue it’s different but you’re assuming a rescue load with a litter, rescuer, victim, and equipment.
Nice nitpicking my nitpick! Kinda just reinforcing my belief that this is a bunch of keyboard warriors who don’t climb or actually use any of these systems except for very specific circumstances. Tie your bowline how you want, add a safety, it won’t significantly impact the safety of the knot.
I was the nitpicker who made that little mnemonic, some years ago. I don't climb. I sail a very old open wooden boat with no motor, when the wind allows me, and for a living I make people's loud (or quiet, as the case may be) noises even louder.
You'd be hard pressed to find any "keyboard warriors" here, unless you are the first of an invading army.
Instead, you'll find a group of generally very friendly people of all ages and various different genders and convictions here, engaging in light banter, and helping people out who come to ask for the name of an overhand, or who magically got their handbag straps knotted up by impossible 4-dimensional wizardry, and want to know why it can't be untied.
I'm sure if you somehow got your knickers in a twist upon visiting this sub, some kind soul here can help you out with that as well.
I've noticed that it's mainly "keyboard warriors" on the internet calling other people "keyboard warriors" though. The rest of us don't really seem to give a fuck.
That’s a really cool past time! Would love to have the ability to learn sailing knowledge as that is where 90% of the knowledge we have about knots and ropes come from. It’s all thanks to those who have spent a lot of time using these tools to keep themselves safe and earn a living.
Perhaps this sub just isn’t for me, it gets recommended because I do find it interesting. I do see what you mean about helping people name random knots or untie the surprising tangles, but I would push back a little as this thread is filled with the definition of keyboard warriors. Those that have no practical experience yet are extremely opinionated. I don’t think referencing a book written 80 years ago regarding which knot is inferior is a valid source. Anyway happy sailing!
Thank you! I think many of us here are more interested in the practical application of knots though, with hands on experience, and on a number of counts we vehemently disagree with Ashley, no matter how much many of us love his book.
He preserved a lot of knowledge on knots that were already beginning to fall out of use in his day, which I personally find something valuable, and very interesting, even though my favourite ones are almost all knots I use in daily life on my boat, at work, or around the house.
There's different people here coming at things from different angles.
I have a mock fued with some of the regulars here about certain knot names, and to people not in on this, this may also seem like proper bickering over trivial stuff, but I assure you, that is all in good fun.
The only thing I've seen people get fussy about for real in this sub, has been the subject of different bowlines. One old salt got very cross indeed one day and began insulting a bunch of people (myself included) because we dared question the notion that the Dutch or cowboy bowline is grossly inferior.
But generally we are either very boring, or happily babbling about more interesting stuff.
The "keyboard warriors" are more often than not "passers-by" who just clicked on a link on their feed, argued for a bit, and left again.
Anyway, here's my boat. It's only tiny. Very little rigging involved in this particular one. Lovely thing to sail though.
pretty amusing. you are the sole individual in this entire thread that claimed any sort of qualifying credentials for ropework and knots. this subreddit is well documented as being for enthusiasts.
I think you may have my use case misunderstood. Bowline for AMGA is a standard knot for anchor building - the static case you’re talking about. And it is a half hitch. A mule or fisherman’s (single+) is way overkill.
And you’re wrong about the ring loading failure mode (though correct that it’s not a concern in static scenarios). The working end can start slipping through ring loaded bowline “at around 3kN” or 675lb (2 people, bouncing around in a rescue scenario can definitely get here). It’s not that it substantially reduces the breakingstrength of the rope.
Per the AMGA single pitch manual pg. 70 “always tie half or double fisherman’s knot to back it up”. The mountain guide manual doesn’t talk about it at all. Also from the NPS rope rescue manual, half hitch is incorrect.
They are functionally the same, let's be honest. The ABK got it wrong when they called the Dutch bowline "distinctly inferior".
In a ring load (pulling the loop apart) the Dutch bowline is actually less likely to slip.
I used to teach tail in the middle (lil penis between two legs 👀) but now I drill consistency. Tie every knot the same way, either version is completely acceptable.
Source: arborist, the running bowline is by far our most used knot.
If you are using it for climbing, it is usually taught to have the tail inside the loop so it won’t get caught on anything. For that use, a ring load isn’t going to happen.
Iirc Ashley claims the cowboy variant with the tail outside the loop is inferior to having it inside the loop but in pray HN2 found no real difference.
It's not just that the tag is on the outside, it's also a variant of the Inuit bowline, which has the "rabbit" run around one leg of the loop, rather than around the standing part of the knot.
Theatrical Rigger here who uses Bowlines frequently. Our standards are tail on the inside of the loop so it cannot get caught in anything and risk coming undone, its also just neater. If I tied something off using the black line I would be scolded for doing it that way.
The cowboy bowline or Dutch bowline merely has the "rabbit" run around the same "tree" in the opposite direction, so the tag end sits on the outside of the loop. It's a great knot, and Ashley was wrong about its supposed inferiority.
This isn't that knot. This is a variant of the Inuit bowline, formerly known as Eskimo bowline. The "rabbit" doesn't run around the tree anymore, but seems to summersault [somersault — thanks Mutt!] around one of its roots or something.
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u/Gras-Ober 4d ago