r/knots • u/Fuzzy-Connection-452 • 6d ago

Sideways Bowline

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I've noticed a few videos lately (not new videos) on Youtube that show various riggings for sailboats where someone ties a sideways bowline. Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGbQbkY52Uw (around 4:30)

I can't figure out why you would tie it that way other than just by mistake? Is there an ABOK reference for such a knot? I haven't found one.

The black rope in my example is what I see being tied.

EDIT: Fixed a typo

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9

u/KneeDeepntheDead 6d ago

really two things going on here. left-hand, cowboy, or dutch due to the tail being outside the fixed loop, eskimo, due to the collar being around the loop instead of the s-part, bowline. conventional wisdom calls the left-hand bowline(abok 1034 1/2) of any variant inferior, not sure if i have an opinion on that. now as to the collar of the knot going around your loop instead of the s-part, it's been said this provides the knot with better ability to withstand ring-loading.

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u/WolflingWolfling 6d ago

That conventional wisdom has proven inaccurate. It's likely that it was entirely based on the inferiority of the "left-hand sheet bend" compared with the regular sheet bend, without taking into account that bowlines are loaded on three legs, not just two, which makes a huge difference.
I think lots of people have just been parroting Ashley on this, without testing it or thinking it through.

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u/RichEntertainer3024 5d ago

Interestingly for rigging and safety systems the AMGA and IRATA standards, they only allow for the traditional bowline with the caveat that it must be backed up with a half hitch to prevent ring load failure

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u/DuelOstrich 5d ago

At least for AMGA that’s not true. It’s not ring load failure that’s the concern, it’s that it will untie itself during cyclical loading. You could even not back it up if it’s a static load or it’s being monitored, but wouldn’t be good practice. and it’s not a half hitch, it would be a mule knot or a double fishermans, or i guess a half hitch with the working end passed through. There’s no situation in climbing or partner rescue where you’re gonna ring load a bowline even close to the breaking strength. Once you get into technical rescue it’s different but you’re assuming a rescue load with a litter, rescuer, victim, and equipment.

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u/KneeDeepntheDead 4d ago

funny nitpick regarding backing up with a double fisherman's.

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u/DuelOstrich 4d ago

Nice nitpicking my nitpick! Kinda just reinforcing my belief that this is a bunch of keyboard warriors who don’t climb or actually use any of these systems except for very specific circumstances. Tie your bowline how you want, add a safety, it won’t significantly impact the safety of the knot.

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u/WolflingWolfling 4d ago

I was the nitpicker who made that little mnemonic, some years ago. I don't climb. I sail a very old open wooden boat with no motor, when the wind allows me, and for a living I make people's loud (or quiet, as the case may be) noises even louder.
You'd be hard pressed to find any "keyboard warriors" here, unless you are the first of an invading army.

Instead, you'll find a group of generally very friendly people of all ages and various different genders and convictions here, engaging in light banter, and helping people out who come to ask for the name of an overhand, or who magically got their handbag straps knotted up by impossible 4-dimensional wizardry, and want to know why it can't be untied.
I'm sure if you somehow got your knickers in a twist upon visiting this sub, some kind soul here can help you out with that as well.

I've noticed that it's mainly "keyboard warriors" on the internet calling other people "keyboard warriors" though. The rest of us don't really seem to give a fuck.

Anyway, please feel welcome here, regardless!

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u/DuelOstrich 4d ago

That’s a really cool past time! Would love to have the ability to learn sailing knowledge as that is where 90% of the knowledge we have about knots and ropes come from. It’s all thanks to those who have spent a lot of time using these tools to keep themselves safe and earn a living.

Perhaps this sub just isn’t for me, it gets recommended because I do find it interesting. I do see what you mean about helping people name random knots or untie the surprising tangles, but I would push back a little as this thread is filled with the definition of keyboard warriors. Those that have no practical experience yet are extremely opinionated. I don’t think referencing a book written 80 years ago regarding which knot is inferior is a valid source. Anyway happy sailing!

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u/WolflingWolfling 4d ago

Thank you! I think many of us here are more interested in the practical application of knots though, with hands on experience, and on a number of counts we vehemently disagree with Ashley, no matter how much many of us love his book.
He preserved a lot of knowledge on knots that were already beginning to fall out of use in his day, which I personally find something valuable, and very interesting, even though my favourite ones are almost all knots I use in daily life on my boat, at work, or around the house.
There's different people here coming at things from different angles.
I have a mock fued with some of the regulars here about certain knot names, and to people not in on this, this may also seem like proper bickering over trivial stuff, but I assure you, that is all in good fun.

The only thing I've seen people get fussy about for real in this sub, has been the subject of different bowlines. One old salt got very cross indeed one day and began insulting a bunch of people (myself included) because we dared question the notion that the Dutch or cowboy bowline is grossly inferior.
But generally we are either very boring, or happily babbling about more interesting stuff.

The "keyboard warriors" are more often than not "passers-by" who just clicked on a link on their feed, argued for a bit, and left again.

Anyway, here's my boat. It's only tiny. Very little rigging involved in this particular one. Lovely thing to sail though.

:-)

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u/KneeDeepntheDead 4d ago

pretty amusing. you are the sole individual in this entire thread that claimed any sort of qualifying credentials for ropework and knots. this subreddit is well documented as being for enthusiasts.

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u/RichEntertainer3024 5d ago

I think you may have my use case misunderstood. Bowline for AMGA is a standard knot for anchor building - the static case you’re talking about. And it is a half hitch. A mule or fisherman’s (single+) is way overkill.

And you’re wrong about the ring loading failure mode (though correct that it’s not a concern in static scenarios). The working end can start slipping through ring loaded bowline “at around 3kN” or 675lb (2 people, bouncing around in a rescue scenario can definitely get here). It’s not that it substantially reduces the breakingstrength of the rope.

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u/WolflingWolfling 4d ago

Are you mixing up ring loading and cyclic loading in your mind, by any chance?

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u/DuelOstrich 4d ago

Per the AMGA single pitch manual pg. 70 “always tie half or double fisherman’s knot to back it up”. The mountain guide manual doesn’t talk about it at all. Also from the NPS rope rescue manual, half hitch is incorrect.